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Idolatory?
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Dave B
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 11:49 am    Post subject: Idolatory?  Reply with quote

If you go into a church of most Christian sects the most obvious sign that it was such will be a crucifix. If it is an RCC church there will be a statue of the Madonna as well.

Considering:
Quote:
You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments." (RSV Exodus 20:3-6).

do not these representations fall foul of God's demand?

Was saying that Jesus was the "Son of God" and attempt to appease the Old Man? But, to make a "likeness of anything that is in heaven above" which is where we are told Jesus is. And statues to Mary "Mother of God"(?) seems to go against that rule as well.

So, are all Christians that recognise such idols/graven images breaking the holy rule?

(I am sure this has been asked before, my pardon if so.)
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really like the statues - particularly in Spain when they parade them through the streets for festivals.

All good cultural stuff
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Delrick53
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 6:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Idolatory? Reply with quote

Dave B wrote:
If you go into a church of most Christian sects the most obvious sign that it was such will be a crucifix. If it is an RCC church there will be a statue of the Madonna as well.

Considering:
Quote:
You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments." (RSV Exodus 20:3-6).

do not these representations fall foul of God's demand?

Was saying that Jesus was the "Son of God" and attempt to appease the Old Man? But, to make a "likeness of anything that is in heaven above" which is where we are told Jesus is. And statues to Mary "Mother of God"(?) seems to go against that rule as well.

So, are all Christians that recognise such idols/graven images breaking the holy rule?

(I am sure this has been asked before, my pardon if so.)


Won't find anything like that up here Dave (except in Rc and a few Anglican churches).

No crucifixes, no stained glass, and the ministers are in black ! The most colour you'll see will be at funerals, because of the trend of bright clothing at children's funerals.

Even our local Catholic church is short on silver and gold and fancy artwork.

There's a thread just started at the Beeb looking at ritual, and like the standard adornment - gold, silver, precious stones, elaborate buildings and decoration, and clergy in outfits that make those seen at the Notting Hill Carnival look dull, it all stated hundreds of years after Jesus allegedly did his thing.

So I believe that the ritual, the decor, the outfits, and the theology, has more to do with men and their egos than Jesus.
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Lexilogio
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Statues are an interesting issue.

The commandment against idols is against worshipping false gods. People don't worship the statue itself.

Having said that, I've never been keen on statues of Mary, or of icons in the Orthodox church.
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Dave B,
Quote:
And statues to Mary "Mother of God"(?) seems to go against that rule as well


I'm a great fan of Santa Maria - lovely lady.

These are objects, they are mean what we wish them to mean.
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Dave B
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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks folks, similar things were said on the Beeb Christian topic when I asked the same question there.

But the sceptic in my still kinds a very thin line between seeing a "graven image" as an "idol" or an "object" through which to focus your devotions.

I suppose it depends on which side of that line one stands. To this atheist the line is virtually invisible.
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Judders Lady...
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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 11:01 am    Post subject: Re: Idolatory? Reply with quote

Dave B wrote:

So, are all Christians that recognise such idols/graven images breaking the holy rule?

(I am sure this has been asked before, my pardon if so.)



Morning DaveB,

To answer your question I also have to ask a question.

I do not like any idols or crucifixs.
The first commandment also says do not take unto yourself any graven image as you point out. It also states that means from anywhere...
Quote:
*WIKI*"Do not make an image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above..."

   This prohibits the construction or fashioning of "idols" in the likeness of created things (beasts, fish, birds, people) and worshipping them.


God is in heaven - no likeness of him or anything else on earth or heaven above.

Believers or true worshippers in Spirit and Truth.
If in Spirit and Truth then why would they require anything outward when the Spirit dwelling inward?

So these things are the outwards signs and ways of faith men hold to in the last times. Rejecting the true inner power of truth through the Spirit.
To the unbeliever the 10 virgins all look the same. Even the five foolish virgins do not see the difference.

The truth shows these other things are not needed.
Just Spirit and Truth. Jesus Christ is the one who brings the baptism of the Holy Spirit. No other way to God.

You will find many excuses for having the idols. But... having said that: "they are not worshipped". Why have them at all?


Love Lynne.xx


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Dave B
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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps images, of any kind, are necessary for those who do not have an all consuming internal image of the object of their devotions?

Perhaps "obsessed with their own perception of the object" might be more appropriate.
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Last edited by Dave B on Fri May 28, 2010 11:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lynne,

Quote:
You will find many excuses for having the idols. But... having said that: "they are not worshipped". Why have them at all?


We are all products of our environment, to many people these figures help create a good atmosphere for worship.

If they are useful in this respect - how can this be wrong?
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Lexilogio
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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave B wrote:
Thanks folks, similar things were said on the Beeb Christian topic when I asked the same question there.

But the sceptic in my still kinds a very thin line between seeing a "graven image" as an "idol" or an "object" through which to focus your devotions.

I suppose it depends on which side of that line one stands. To this atheist the line is virtually invisible.


I agree. Equally, I know some people from very low Protestant churches (low being far from Catholicism) who consider it Satanism to have any statue or "image" in a church.

For myself, I can understand how a statue can help focus the mind for some, but do struggle with some aspects of Greek orthodoxy - such as one festival where everyone brings icons of a particular saint to the church on the Festival Day, and worship is focused around the main icon.

Having said that - my Greek isn't good enough to appreciate the subtly of what is being said.


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