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Is God and Energy the same thing
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Derek
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:34 pm    Post subject: Is God and Energy the same thing  Reply with quote

I was asked to open a thread with one of my world views. This is a thread I started on a different forum that attracted much interest and for which I still ponder over. Is God and energy the same thing and if they are then we to must be the product of that energy or intelligence, don't we?

I have been re-reading a book that I had read some time ago, but like most books I have read more the 10 years ago, I forgot most of its content. I have, of late, been interested in the concept of science and religion stemming from the same spring of knowledge and intelligence. Seems that my thoughts have already been investigated in this small, yet interesting little book. Is the descriptions of energy and matter correct. Are we an energy force acting within a larger energy force. Is God and energy synonymous with each other. I am no scientist, however, the following exert seems to be logical to me and gives the reader the impression that a superior being is responsible for all of this.

Exert from The Secret by Rhonda Byrne

Most people define themselves by this finite body, but you're not a finite body. Even under a microscope you're an energy field. What we know about energy is this: You go to a quantum physicist and you say, "What creates the world?" And he or she will say, "Energy." Well, describe energy.

"OK, it can never be created or destroyed, it always was, always has been, everything that ever existed always exists, it's moving into form, through form and out of form." You go to a theologian and ask the question, "What created the Universe?" And he or she will say, "God." OK, describe God.

"Always was and always has been, never can be created or destroyed, all that ever was, always will be, always moving into form, through form and out of form." You see, it's the same description, just different terminology.

So if you think you're this "meat suit" running around, think again. You're a spiritual being! You're an energy field, operating in a larger energy field.

How does all of this make you a spiritual being? For me, the answer to that question is one of the most magnificent parts of the teachings of The Secret. You are energy, and energy cannot be created or destroyed. Energy just changes form. And that means You!

The true essence of You, the pure energy of You, has always been and always will be. You can never not be.

On a deep level, you know that. Can you imagine not being? Despite everything you have seen and experienced in your life, can you imagine not being? You cannot imagine it, because it is impossible. You are eternal energy.

DR. JOHN HAGELIN

Quantum mechanics confirms it. Quantum cosmology confirms it. That the Universe essentially emerges from thought and all of this matter around us is just precipitated thought. Ultimately toe are the source of the Universe, and when we understand that power directly by experience, we can start to exercise our authority and begin to achieve more and more. Create anything. Know anything from within the field of our own consciousness, which ultimately is Universal consciousness that runs the Universe.
The Secret by Rhonda Byrne.

I do not want to get heavily bogged down in religion on this one. I am more interested in whether God, or what ever you want to call the ideology, is a form of intellectual energy, much the same as the properties involved in Quantum Physics.

I am not saying anything specifically. I am investigating the idea under the premises of both our energy and Gods being of the same source, in its elementary form, but the energy it possesses being unique to each individual, like taking water from a reservoir to water crops or drink, both use elementary identical element, they just have different applications that produces different effects. The alternative being a sort of collective consciousness, like "The Borg" was in Star Trek, where every sub-atomic particle is like DNA, having identical information that tells us all identical information, which would suggest that we are all an integral part of God and just one source of light and knowledge, or, in other words, a shared identical intelligence, which could suggest that energy contains intelligence, in either case. What do you think.


Last edited by Derek on Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:44 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Jim
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What 'Secret;?
Not in Christianity, it isn't.
God is always portrayed as a person, with all the atributes of personhood, though also described as 'spirit' - coincidentally the Third Person of His triune nature, but still, in essence, a person.
Energy is a force - even the execrable WTS mistranslation of 'dynamic energy' lessens the scope and personhood of God.
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Derek
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim wrote:
What 'Secret;?
Not in Christianity, it isn't.
God is always portrayed as a person, with all the atributes of personhood, though also described as 'spirit' - coincidentally the Third Person of His triune nature, but still, in essence, a person.
Energy is a force - even the execrable WTS mistranslation of 'dynamic energy' lessens the scope and personhood of God.


That he is portrayed as a person is meaningless. We believe that we are created in his image so naturally we see him like we are, and that is fine, there is no argument from me on that. So, we are all people of flesh and bones, like we see God as, but how we look is almost an illusion, we are in fact energy. Now, if we look like we do but we are essentially energy, as we are created in the image of God then God to could be pure energy that looks like a person.

Personally, I am a Christian who lives a Christ centered life, so, I see no credibility in the existence of the triune, therefore, I cannot comment on that or include it in my deliberations because it simply does not exist to me. It doesn't alter the idea that God could be pure energy either.
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cyberman
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The difference which the author fails to pick up on when she points out the similarities between what physicists say about energy and what theologians say about God is this: a physicist believes energy to be a part of the universe, just like matter is. A theologian believes God to be something not of the physical universe, which existed independently of it and which caused it to be.

Like matter, energy is part of the universe. The theologian will say that that is something which was created by God. To say that God is a form of energy is a bit like saying God is a form of matter; he is neither, as he exists independently of the creation of these things.
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The Boyg
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like some sort of sub-Pantheism, i.e. all the energy in the universe is "God".
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Derek
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
[quote="cyberman:127379"]The difference which the author fails to pick up on when she points out the similarities between what physicists say about energy and what theologians say about God is this: a physicist believes energy to be a part of the universe, just like matter is. A theologian believes God to be something not of the physical universe, which existed independently of it and which caused it to be.


Sorry, but a physicist believes that the universe is energy not that it is part of anything but it is everything. Matter is the result of energy combining together, you and I. Essentially, matter is energy. The universe, as a whole, is pure energy. Everything that is in the universe can be reduced to energy. You and I are made of the same energy, as we are to any living organism. The rest of us is just empty space. To give an example, If you were sat on a nucleus on the Dover Cliffs the nearest electron to you would be completely out of sight, in Northern France. That is a lot of space. It make the spirit of man more understandable, that is, we could consider our spirits to be refined matter with miraculous properties. 

I am not aware of theologians believing that God is separate and independent of the universe. It is not my personal belief, at present. It is my belief that God currently exists within the universe, or, more controversially, that he is the universe and each of us are a part of the body of God, part of His energy but independent of his will. None of this changes his persona or his love for us.

Quote:
Like matter, energy is part of the universe. The theologian will say that that is something which was created by God. To say that God is a form of energy is a bit like saying God is a form of matter; he is neither, as he exists independently of the creation of these things.


There is another train of thought that suggest that when the big bang took place then God became a part of space and time continuum. That he became the universe.

There is yet another theory that says that God has not changed at all and that he can be found within the quantum field, some say the ether. It is very likely that quantum physics existed before the universe existed, as God did, The way that quantum physics acts is similar to the way that God exists. Both are miraculous in there actions. Both act outside of all natural laws. Both are the essence of life itself both are derived from energy, maybe. Of course, quantum physics is in its infancy and time will either confirm or denounce the hypothesis.  I think that there is much to learn about God, and how the Holy Ghost functions, within quantum physics and that before we actually find God in it he will return.  I do not have the capacity to reason all of this out without time. It drains me because of its complexity, although none of it can be considered as fact. It is religious theory that produces some very interesting postulation.

I am talking about science and cosmology verifying the existence of a Supreme being who has caused the universe to exist and has done it in such a way that his participation cannot be denied. I am also making the existence and nature of God more realistic through the phenomenon of energy, like dark energy or the Higgs Boson. Intelligent energy that communicates with other energy sources like they were all a part of a collective consciousness.

According to Pauli exclusion principle, if you change the energy level of an electron the whole universe adjusts itself to put itself back into equilibrium,  instantly. As no two electrons can occupy the same energy level in an atom,  another atom, a billion light years away will, compensate by changing it's energy level to that of the one that has just changed, instantly, without time, or distance, being relevant to it, keeping the universe, not only in constant motion, but also at a constant energy/mass level. That, to me, is as much of a miracle as Jesus healing the blind, yet it is the science of the miraculous quantum field. Now add the twist of anti - matter.  That is that the sum total of energy in the universe is in fact zero. Clump everything together, both matter and anti-matter, and we have absolutely nothing. We don't even exist, in real terms, yet we are all connected, within the universal energy. I have always known you.

So, is it feasible that God and energy coexist, that they are one and the same. Would that explain, or evidence his existence. Would it make his existence and mission more comprehensible and the plan of salvation obviously necessary. Or does God transcend any human conceptions and is a magical entity, that can defy all natural and super natural laws? This is one of my world views. This makes my belief in God so stalwart and solid, because it makes perfect sense and there is knowledge, even hidden knowledge, that tells us that god lives and that he loves us, as we are a part of him, literally. Now, please, test my faith, knock my world view down. Critique it and be the Devils advocate, if you like, and I will give you my knowledge, the knowledge imparted upon me by the Holy Ghost, who testify of that which is true. I will show you how impossible and inconceivable it would be for God not to exist.

If you are interested in Quantum Physics then this is a very good lecture given by Brian Cox a couple of years ago.

According to Brian Cox in his A night with the Stars lecture1, the Pauli exclusion principle means that no electron in the universe can have the same energy state as any other electron in the universe, and that if he does something to change the energy state of one group of electrons (rubbing a diamond to heat it up in his demo) then that must cause other electrons somewhere in the universe to change their energy states as the states of the electrons in the diamond change.


Link

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Last edited by Derek on Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Derek
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Boyg wrote:
Sounds like some sort of sub-Pantheism, i.e. all the energy in the universe is "God".



Pantheists do not believe in a distinct personal or anthropomorphic god, whereas I do, however, they are certainly not dissimilar.
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bnabernard
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Genesis has God creating apparently in the dark, and then creating light. but ang on, God is the light and revelation has the temple being lit by God and not needing the sun and other 'created' light.

Non canon text has adam being cast into the dark and created light being made necessary to see by, dark being the veil between sin and perfection.

all gets a bit messy, God is light and life, so is dark created.

Well I'm not the man I used to be,.... well yer I was only about a foot in length once, I sure put on weight since then,

oh well I'll go for a dump and put some back, re-cycle that's the way.

Bernard (hug)
Hi all
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cyberman
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ralph2 wrote:
It is very likely that quantum physics existed before the universe existed,


Sorry, but that needs fleshing out a bit.

First of all; how likely is it? what is the probability that this is the case?
Secondly; what data has been used to calculate that probability?
Thirdly; What does it mean? How can physics exist if no universe exists?
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cyberman
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ralph2 wrote:
Would that explain, or evidence his existence


Oh, I see what you're doing. A bit liek Spinoza (not exactly the same, though, so let's not get sidetracked into Spinoza.

You want to produce evidence of Gods existence, so you do this:

(a) think of something there is evidence for (like 'energy' or 'nature')
(b) argue that god and this other thing are in fact the same thing
(c) produce the existence of the other thing as scientific proof of the existence of God.

Nice idea; doesn't work, unfortunately. No-one who doesn't already believe in God is going to say "oh yes, that's proof of God's existence". They're going to say "what do mean, calling energy "God"? We're happy just calling it energy, thanks" And most people who do already believe in God will just say "No, God is a completely different thing to energy - energy is part of the physics, part of "creation", not the creator".


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