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Isaiah 53:
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Farmer Geddon
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:51 pm    Post subject: Isaiah 53:  Reply with quote

In fact the whole of Isaiah.....

I genuinely don't get how this scroll is of importance to the Christian - it has nothing to do with Christianity!
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Lectora
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FG,
I'm surprised that you think Isaiah 53 and indeed the whole of Isaiah has nothing to do with Christianity when Christ himself quoted from it more than from any other book except the Psalms. His "commission" at the beginning of his ministry (Luke 4. 16ff) is quoted from Isaiah 61.1 ( the Septuagint version, not quite the same as in the Protestant OT. Check the 2 versions in your Bible, Isaiah 61.1,2 with Luke 4.18)

Isaiah 53 is the most famous of the Suffering Servant passages and many of the characteristics of the Suffering Servant can easily be said to be those of Christ. On the road to Emmaus, Luke 24.26, the risen Christ asks his companions if the Scriptures did not point to his suffering, death  and "rising in glory"  "Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets he interpreted to them the things about himself in all the Scriptures." (v27-)

The fascinating point here is that although Isaiah 53 is the nearest to telling us about the sufferings of the Suffering Servant, alias Christ to Christians, no where does Isiah 53 tell us about Christ"entering into his glory". To what Scriptures was Christ referring? We know from the different renderings in the Septuagint and from the scrolls found at Qumran (Dead Sea Scrolls) that the Jews altered  OT passages which could be interpreted by Christians as prophecies of Christ as Messiah. In fact, the early Church said so and we are only just taking note, because of the finds at Qumran and elsewere. There must be other versions, as yet lost to us.

In fact, there is an example in Isaiah 53 v 11 in the Masoretic text (Jewish), it reads  "Out of his anguish he shall lack light," Our modern translations have deliberately chosen the verse in the complete copy of Isaiah  found at Qumran  "he shall see light." (the Septuagint similar but not quite so clear). The KJB (1611) translators of v11 refused the Masoretic text translation too. They had  the Septuagint only and so  gave the verse as:  ""He shall see of the travail of his soul and be satisfied."
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Honey 56
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Isaiah 53: Reply with quote

Farmer Geddon wrote:
In fact the whole of Isaiah.....

I genuinely don't get how this scroll is of importance to the Christian - it has nothing to do with Christianity!



The early Christians (who were also Jews) certainly understood that isaiah 53 was a prophecy concerning and fulfilled by Jesus Christ...
Acts 8: 26-39 descrbes how Phillip came across an Ethiopian who was reading the passage from Isaiah 53, Phillip explained to whom the scripture was referring, Phillip was able to share the good news of the gospel and lead the Ethiopian into understanding and a baptism followed.
It was the very first scripture I read and truly understood, so it holds a very special place in my heart too, I read it out at my baptism, aged thirty something!

It is a most beautiful and inspiring scripture (to me anyway)

Honey
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Farmer Geddon
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess the simple response is Isaiah 53 has nothing to do with the Christ.

I know you will all go bleating on about how the "suffering servant" must refer to the Christ.

But all through the rest of the book the author[s?] of Isaiah explicitly states that the "suffering servant" can only be identified as Jacob and Israel, (the Jewish People): Isaiah 53 is just the 4th servant song, which refers to a "servant of God.”

“But you, Israel, are my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen.” (Isaiah 41:8-9).

“Yet hear now, O Jacob My servant and Israel whom I have chosen.” (Isaiah 44:1).

“Remember these, O Jacob, And Israel, for you are My servant, I have formed you, you are My servant.” (Isaiah 44:21).

“…for Jacob My servant’s sake, and Israel My elect.” (Isaiah 45:4).

“The Lord has redeemed His servant Jacob.” (Isaiah 48:20).

“You are My servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.” (Isaiah 49:3).


The simple fact is God chose the Jewish People to be His servant nation and historically it is the Jewish People who have suffered at the hands of the 'Gentile' nations. [A bit of a misnomer seeing as Gentile means “the nations"]!

In the preceding verse at the end of Chapter 52; the writer of Isaiah reveals that the Gentile kings admit that they, the Gentiles, are the ones who have caused the Jews to suffer for their own sins:

Isaiah 52:13 “Behold, My [God] servant [Israel] will succeed; he [Israel] will be exalted and become high and exceedingly lofty.
14: Just as multitudes were astonished over you [Israel] …

15: So will the many nations exclaim about him [Israel] and [Gentile] kings will shut their mouths [in amazement] for they [Gentiles] will see that which had never been told to them [Gentiles], and will perceive things they (Gentiles] had never heard".


So in Isaiah 52, the Gentile kings “shut their mouths” when they realise that they sinned by persecuting the Jews for their own benefit.

So they are obviously being cast as the narrator of chapter 53.

Once you get your head round the fact that in Chapter 53, the “we” are the Gentiles and the “he” is Israel (the Jewish People), then it is easy to read it as thus:

“Who would believe what we [Gentiles] have heard! For whom has the arm of Hashem been revealed! Formerly he [Israel] grew like a sapling or like a root from arid ground; he had neither form nor grandeur; we saw him but without such visage that we could desire him. He was despised and isolated from men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness.
As one from whom we would hide our faces; he was despised, and we had no regard for him.
But in truth, it was our ills that he bore, and our pains that he carried – but we had regarded him diseased, stricken by God, and afflicted.
He was pained because of our rebellious sins and oppressed through our iniquities; the chastisement upon him was for our benefit, and through his wounds, we were healed.
We have all strayed like sheep, each of us turning his own way, and Hashem inflicted upon him the iniquity of us all.
He was persecuted and afflicted, but he did not open his mouth; like a sheep being led to the slaughter or a ewe that is silent before her shearers, he did not open his mouth.
Now that he has been released from captivity and judgment, who could have imagined such a generation? For he had been removed from the land of the living, an affliction upon them [lamo in Hebrew] that was my people’s sin.
He submitted himself to his grave like wicked men; and the wealthy [submitted] to his execution, for committing no crime and with no deceit in his mouth.
Hashem desired to oppress him and He afflicted him; if his soul would acknowledge guilt, he would see offspring and live long days and the desire of Hashem would succeed in his hand.
He would see (the purpose) and be satisfied with his soul’s distress.
With his knowledge My servant will vindicate the Righteous One to multitudes; it is their iniquities that he will carry.
Therefore, I will assign him a portion from the multitudes and he will divide the mighty as spoils – in return for having poured out his soul for death and being counted among the wicked, for he bore the sin of the multitudes, and prayed for the wicked.”


[This is a more truer translation from the original Hebrew]

Note the lower case 'him'/'he'/'his' - that is very significant.


Last edited by Farmer Geddon on Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Honey 56
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Farmer Geddon,

Once you get your head around the fact that all Christians, including and especially the early ones such as Phillip and Peter have absolutely no doubt that Isaiah 53 is a prophesy which Jesus fullfilled totally, you will be able to stop fighting against the obvious. We know that the early believers knew this because they quote it in regard to The Christ in the Gospels and the epistles, in fact Jesus quoted it regarding himself.

If you google on a good bible sight such as biblos or biblegateway there are commentaries by theologians and believers who have a proper understanding of scripture, there it will be explained fully and correctly.

Honey
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I can do all things in Him who strengthens me.   Yeshuw'ah my salvation.
11For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
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Jim
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've just noticed this thread.
The first thing I'd say is that I miss Lectora, whose posts on the CMTB were always thoughtful, incisive and practical when it came to faith building.
Has anyone heard where she's gone?

    Second, I'd agree broadly with Honey ( Sorry, F.G., no surprise there! ) Is. 53 is just one of many theophanies - 'pre-echoes' if you like, of Christ in the Old Testament.
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Honey 56
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim wrote:
I've just noticed this thread.
The first thing I'd say is that I miss Lectora, whose posts on the CMTB were always thoughtful, incisive and practical when it came to faith building.
Has anyone heard where she's gone?

    Second, I'd agree broadly with Honey ( Sorry, F.G., no surprise there! ) Is. 53 is just one of many theophanies - 'pre-echoes' if you like, of Christ in the Old Testament.


Agreed Jim,

I learned a lot from Lectora, except when what she was discussing went right over my head!!!!  
No, she was excellent at explaining things, I miss her too.

Honey
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I can do all things in Him who strengthens me.   Yeshuw'ah my salvation.
11For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
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Farmer Geddon
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honey 56 wrote:
Dear Farmer Geddon,

Once you get your head around the fact that all Christians, including and especially the early ones such as Phillip and Peter have absolutely no doubt that Isaiah 53 is a prophesy which Jesus fullfilled totally, you will be able to stop fighting against the obvious. We know that the early believers knew this because they quote it in regard to The Christ in the Gospels and the epistles, in fact Jesus quoted it regarding himself.

If you google on a good bible sight such as biblos or biblegateway there are commentaries by theologians and believers who have a proper understanding of scripture, there it will be explained fully and correctly.

Honey


Oh dear.. You really think that an illiterate Jewish fisherman wrote "Peter"?

Who in the name of the wee man is "Phillip"?

Not really that bothered about google searches, seeing as the vast majority of them, when discussing Jesus, take you to pro-evangelical Christian sites.. try going to a library instead.

The site you should be reading, regarding time-lines, is Peter Kirby's

I know it will confuse you at first, but I also know you will ignore what it claims.. because it doesn't fit your "Christ-Centric" position.

Also you haven't addressed my postulation that Isa 53 has fuck all to do with the "Christ" - I take it that that must mean that you are slowly starting to realise that the 'suffering servant' in this book must refer to the Jewish 'Nation' as a whole and not just one fella?

.


Last edited by Farmer Geddon on Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Farmer Geddon
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK I'm willing to take on any takers who can show me that Isaiah 53 is chatting about the "Christ"..

I'll give you a get-out clause.. it doesn't!!
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Honey 56
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello farmer,not my words but ........

Why Isaiah 53 cannot refer to the nation of Israel, or anyone else, but must be the Messiah


1. The servant of Isaiah 53 is an innocent and guiltless sufferer. Israel is never described as sinless. Isaiah 1:4 says of the nation: "Alas sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity. A brood of evildoers, children who are corrupters!" He then goes on in the same chapter to characterize Judah as Sodom, Jerusalem as a harlot, and the people as those whose hands are stained with blood (verses 10, 15, and 21). What a far cry from the innocent and guiltless sufferer of Isaiah 53 who had "done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth!"



2. The prophet said: "It pleased the LORD to bruise him." Has the awful treatment of the Jewish people (so contrary, by the way, to the teaching of Jesus to love everyone) really been God's pleasure, as is said of the suffering of the servant in Isaiah 53:10 ? If, as some rabbis contend, Isaiah 53 refers to the holocaust, can we really say of Israel's suffering during that horrible period, "It pleased the LORD to bruise him?" Yet it makes perfect sense to say that God was pleased to have Messiah suffer and die as our sin offering to provide us forgiveness and atonement.


3. The person mentioned in this passage suffers silently and willingly. Yet all people, even Israelites, complain when they suffer! Brave Jewish men and women fought in resistance movements against Hitler. Remember the Vilna Ghetto Uprising? Remember the Jewish men who fought on the side of the allies? Can we really say Jewish suffering during the holocaust and during the preceding centuries was done silently and willingly?


4. The figure described in Isaiah 53 suffers, dies, and rises again to atone for his people's sins. The Hebrew word used in Isaiah 53:10 for "sin-offering" is "asham," which is a technical term meaning "sin-offering." See how it is used in Leviticus chapters 5 and 6. Isaiah 53 describes a sinless and perfect sacrificial lamb who takes upon himself the sins of others so that they might be forgiven. Can anyone really claim that the terrible suffering of the Jewish people, however undeserved and unjust, atones for the sins of the world? Whoever Isaiah 53 speaks of, the figure described suffers and dies in order to provide a legal payment for sin so that others can be forgiven. This cannot be true of the Jewish people as a whole, or of any other mere human.


5. It is the prophet who is speaking in this passage. He says: "who has believed our message." The term "message" usually refers to the prophetic message, as it does in Jeremiah 49:14. Also, when we understand the Hebrew parallelism of verse 1, we see "Who has believed our message" as parallel to "to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed." The "arm of the Lord" refers to God's powerful act of salvation. So the message of the speaker is the message of a prophet declaring what God has done to save his people.


6. The prophet speaking is Isaiah himself, who says the sufferer was punished for "the transgression of my people," according to verse 8. Who are the people of Isaiah? Israel. So the sufferer of Isaiah 53 suffered for Israel. So how could he be Israel?


7. The figure of Isaiah 53 dies and is buried according to verses 8 and 9. The people of Israel have never died as a whole. They have been out of the land on two occasions and have returned, but they have never ceased to be among the living. Yet Jesus died, was buried, and rose again.


8. If Isaiah 53 cannot refer to Israel, how about Isaiah himself? But Isaiah said he was a sinful man of unclean lips (Isaiah 6:5-7). And Isaiah did not die as an atonement for our sins. Could it have been Jeremiah? Jeremiah 11:19 does echo the words of Isaiah 53. Judah rejected and despised the prophet for telling them the truth. Leaders of Judah sought to kill Jeremiah, and so the prophet describes himself in these terms. But they were not able to kill the prophet. Certainly Jeremiah did not die to atone for the sins of his people. What of Moses? Could the prophet have been speaking of him? But Moses wasn't sinless either. Moses sinned and was forbidden from entering the promised land (Numbers 20:12). Moses indeed attempted to offer himself as a sacrifice in place of the nation, but God did not allow him to do so (Exodus 32:30-35). Moses, Isaiah, and Jeremiah were all prophets who gave us a glimpse of what Messiah, the ultimate prophet, would be like, but none of them quite fit Isaiah 53.


So what can we conclude? Isaiah 53 cannot refer to the nation of Israel, nor to Isaiah, nor to Moses, nor another prophet. And if not to Moses, certainly not to any lesser man. Yet Messiah would be greater than Moses. As the rabbinic writing "Yalkut" said: "Who art thou, O great mountain? (Zech. iv.7) This refers to the King Messiah. And why does he call him`the great mountain?' because he is greater than the patriarchs, as it is said, `My servant shall be high, and lifted up, and lofty exceedingly' --he will be higher than Abraham...lifted up above Moses...loftier then the ministering angels..." (Quoted in The Fifty-third Chapter of Isaiah According to the Jewish Interpreters, Ktav Publishing House, 1969, Volume 2, page 9.)


Of whom does Isaiah speak? He speaks of the Messiah, as many ancient rabbis concluded. The second verse of Isaiah 53 makes it crystal clear. The figure grows up as "a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground." The shoot springing up is beyond reasonable doubt a reference to the Messiah, and, in fact, it is a common Messianic reference in Isaiah and elsewhere. The Davidic dynasty was to be cut down in judgement like a felled tree, but it was promised to Israel that a new sprout would shoot up from the stump. The Messiah was to be that sprout. Several Hebrew words were used to refer to this undeniably Messianic image. All the terms are related in meaning and connected in the Messianic texts where they were used. Isaiah 11, which virtually all rabbis agreed refers to the Messiah, used the words "shoot" (hoter) and branch (netser) to describe the Messianic King. Isaiah 11:10 called Messiah the "Root (shoresh) of Jesse," Jesse being David's father. Isaiah 53 described the suffering servant as a root (shoresh) from dry ground, using the very same metaphor and the very same word as Isaiah 11. We also see other terms used for the same concept, such as branch (tsemach) in Jeremiah 23:5, in Isaiah 4:2 and also in the startling prophecies of Zechariah 3:8 and 6:12.


Beyond doubt, Isaiah 52:13-53:12 refers to Messiah Jesus. He is the one highly exalted before whom kings shut their mouths. Messiah is the shoot who sprung up from the fallen Davidic dynasty. He became the King of Kings. He provided the ultimate atonement.


Isaiah 52:13 states that it would be the Messiah who will "sprinkle" many nations. What does that mean? What was Messiah's ministry to be toward the nations? The word translated "sprinkle" or sometimes "startle" is found several other places in the OT. The Hebrew word is found in Leviticus 4:6; 8:11; 14:7, and Numbers 8:7, 19:18-19. The references cited all pertain to priestly sprinklings of the blood of atonement, the anointing oil of consecration, and the ceremonial water used to cleanse the unclean. Is Isaiah 52:13 telling us that the Messiah will act as a priest who applies atonement, anoints to consecrate, sprinkles to make clean? (This vision of the Messiah as both priest and king is also found in Zechariah 6:12-13). But, priests were to come from the tribe of Levi and Kings from the tribe of Judah! What kind of priest is he? David told us Messiah would be a priest of the order of Melchizedek (see Psalm 110 and Hebrews chapters 7-9).


Isaiah 53 must be understood as referring to the coming Davidic King, the Messiah. King Messiah was prophesied to suffer and die to pay for our sins and then rise again. He would serve as a priest to the nations of the world and apply the blood of atonement to cleanse those who believe. There is one alone who this can refer to, Jesus, whom millions refer to as Christ, which is from the Greek word for Messiah. Those who confess him are his children, his promised offspring, the spoils of his victory. According to the testimony of the Jewish Apostles, Jesus died for our sins, rose again, ascended to the right hand of God, and he now serves as our great High Priest who cleanses us of sin and our King. Jesus rules over his people and is in the process of conquering the Gentiles. The first century Jewish disciples were willing to die rather than deny they had seen the risen Messiah. Only if one has presupposed Jesus cannot have been the Messiah can one deny that which is obvious. Israel's greatest son, Jesus, is the one Isaiah foresaw.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(c) 1997 Fred Klett


www.chaim.org/isaiah53.htm


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I can do all things in Him who strengthens me.   Yeshuw'ah my salvation.
11For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
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