Archive for nglreturns.myfreeforum.org Nglreturns is a forum to discuss religion, philosophy, ethics etc...

NGLReturns Daily Quiz - Play here!
 



       nglreturns.myfreeforum.org Forum Index -> Christian chat
Honey 56

"I saw satan fall from heaven as lightning"

These were the words of Jesus to His Disciples when they came back from their mission, and were astounded by the power they had over the enemy.

Luke 10

Jesus Sends Out the Seventy-two

1After this the Lord appointed seventy-twoa others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go. 2He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field. 3Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves. 4Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road.

5“When you enter a house, first say, ‘Peace to this house.’ 6If a man of peace is there, your peace will rest on him; if not, it will return to you. 7Stay in that house, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house.

8“When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is set before you. 9Heal the sick who are there and tell them, ‘The kingdom of God is near you.’ 10But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say, 11‘Even the dust of your town that sticks to our feet we wipe off against you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God is near.’ 12I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.

13“Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14But it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you. 15And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths.b

16“He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

17The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”

18He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. 20However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”

21At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

22“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

23Then he turned to his disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes that see what you see. 24For I tell you that many prophets and kings wanted to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it
.”


It was spoken of by Isaiah…..

Isaiah 14:12
How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations

It was spoken of by Jesus to John at Revelation…

Revelation 12:9
The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent
called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him
.

Had this event already taken place as Jesus said in this scripture?
Or was this to be a long into the future event as some people believe?
What is your understanding of these events from scripture?

How long has the whole world been lying in the power of the wicked one?

According to scripture should we  suppose satan would have been allowed to remain in the heavenly realms after he caused the downfall of humanity?

(I have sarted a new thread because this topic cropped up and was derailing the original topic on another thread)
Leonard James

It's odd to think that the people on the opposite side of the earth to Jesus wouldn't have been able to see the event.
Honey 56

Leonard James wrote:
It's odd to think that the people on the opposite side of the earth to Jesus wouldn't have been able to see the event.


Leonard!!!!!  

These are serious theological matters  

There are some that believe it was witnessed all over the earth, in the not so distant past !

Honey  
Farmer Geddon

Honey 56 wrote:
..

These are serious theological matters  



Honey  


Oh I know; like who is the Lord of the Harvest in verse 2.

And why do some transcriptions say Jesus sent out 70 instead of 72?
Shaker

Honey 56 wrote:
These are serious theological matters

Oxymoron alert!
LeClerc

Hi Honey 56

According to the scriptures how many heavens are there ?

LeClerc
Leonard James

Honey 56 wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
It's odd to think that the people on the opposite side of the earth to Jesus wouldn't have been able to see the event.


Leonard!!!!!  

These are serious theological matters  

There are some that believe it was witnessed all over the earth, in the not so distant past !

Honey  

You name it, Honey, and there will probably be some geek somewhere who will swallow it! That's how religions are born!
Honey 56

LeClerc wrote:
Hi Honey 56

According to the scriptures how many heavens are there ?

LeClerc


Hi LeClerc,

There's a poser....
Paul mentions three, (or a third to be exact) but it depends on what you mean by heavens? it can mean the sky for instance or the atmosphere (the air).

Jesus said that His Fathers house had many mansions? and that He was going to prepare a place for us.

satan is allowed into the heavens and the earth, but not into YHWH's  house or His holy Mountain.

Ezekiel 28....

So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,

and I expelled you, O guardian cherub,

from among the fiery stones.

17Your heart became proud

on account of your beauty,

and you corrupted your wisdom

because of your splendor.

So I threw you to the earth;

I made a spectacle of you before kings



Honey
Farmer Geddon

LeClerc wrote:
Hi Honey 56

According to the scriptures how many heavens are there ?

LeClerc


I'm gonna plump for 7 - how many have you got?
JamesJah

Honey where to begin?
How does one describe the beauty of nature to a blind person, what are colours to some one who has never seen them?

In your post you include yourself in the statement Jesus was giving to his disciples, as if you would receive the same reward, you must know that can not be the case, because those ones are to sit on twelve thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel, something you will never be able to do.

You have been offered great insight by many who have it, but you have chosen to turn it down, so it should be no surprise to you that your understanding of scripture is practically non existent.

There are no Hebrew words for rank and order, but the word used to explain authority is[[ heaven]], heaven gives man authority the higher the authority the higher place it comes from in the heavens.

For example Jesus comes from the higher heavens, but here is where it gets tricky for the Trinitarians Jehovah is above the heavens.

In Jude when there was a dispute with the Devil over the body of Moses Jesus called on the highest authority to rebuke him and not give him what he was craving.

If Jehovah could rebuke Satan then he was obviously not earth bound as the Demon’s are.

Jude 9
But when Michael the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses’ body, he did not dare to bring a judgment against him in abusive terms, but said:

May Jehovah rebuke you.
Honey 56

To James Jah.


Quote:
In your post you include yourself in the statement Jesus was giving to his disciples, as if you would receive the same reward, you must know that can not be the case, because those ones are to sit on twelve thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel, something you will never be able to do.


Your problem James is you are ignorant of Jewish tradition, in fact you people in the WT society tend to look down on Jesus’ Jewishness and the promises made to Israel, promises that are irrevocable, and so Israel are still Gods chosen people. (Romans 11)
Jesus is known as the bridegroom, and the church is His bride.
In Jewish tradition the bridegroom must  provide a home for His bride before they are officially allowed to live together, in Jewish tradition it is quite acceptable for that home to be in the bridegroom’s Father’s house, so when Jesus said He was going to prepare a place for us in His Father’s house, this includes all believers, the bride of Christ,  not just a few elite JW’s. and not just His Faithful and loved Disciples (who being Jewish themselves woud have totally understood what Jesus was alluding to)

2 Corinthians 11
Paul and the False Apostles

1I hope you will put up with a little of my foolishness; but you are already doing that. 2I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 3But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 5But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those “super-apostles.” 6I may not be a trained speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way.



You rightly say the twelve disciples will be seated on twelve thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel. The 144,000 anointed  of Christ Jesus are Jewish men, 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes, again these are not 14.000 elite J.W ‘s.(this is flawed teaching from the WT society)

Quote:
You have been offered great insight by many who have it, but you have chosen to turn it down, so it should be no surprise to you that your understanding of scripture is practically non existent.


In the previous scripture there are warnings about people who will come preaching a Jesus that Paul did not or a different gospel  to which Paul taught. Paul says we should not put up with this, so there is a warning there for you James. You have relied on the WT society for your teaching, I have relied on the teacher that Jesus promised us, The Holy Spirit, Jesus said He would lead us into all truth and understanding, I trust Jesus.

Quote:
There are no Hebrew words for rank and order, but the word used to explain authority is[[ heaven]], heaven gives man authority the higher the authority the higher place it comes from in the heavens.
For example Jesus comes from the higher heavens, but here is where it gets tricky for the Trinitarians Jehovah is above the heavens.
In Jude when there was a dispute with the Devil over the body of Moses Jesus called on the highest authority to rebuke him and not give him what he was craving.
If Jehovah could rebuke Satan then he was obviously not earth bound as the Demon’s are.

Jude 9
But when Michael the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses’ body, he did not dare to bring a judgment against him in abusive terms, but said: May Jehovah rebuke you
.

This is another problem for you James, because of the WT erroneous teachings you have come to believe Jesus is the Angel Michael, this is clearly false, Jesus is The Creator, not a created being. Jesus had no problem rebuking satan when satan tried to tempt Him in the wilderness because Jesus is the Adonai YHWH and He has the authority whether in heaven or on Earth, in fact Jesus has given us believers  the authority, and if we resist satan in Jesus’ name he must flee from us (James 4:7). Why would the demons be earthbound but not satan? When satan was cast out the demons (fallen angels) were cast out at the same time.

The Disciples were thrilled that even the demons submitted to them in the name of Jesus!
Jesus was pleased for them, but He told them the real celebration was the fact that their names are written in the lambs book of life!

Is your name written in the lambs book of life james ?

I truly would love to think so.  

Honey
JamesJah

Honey 56 wrote:
To James Jah.


Quote:
In your post you include yourself in the statement Jesus was giving to his disciples, as if you would receive the same reward, you must know that can not be the case, because those ones are to sit on twelve thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel, something you will never be able to do.


Your problem James is you are ignorant of Jewish tradition, in fact you people in the WT society tend to look down on Jesus’ Jewishness and the promises made to Israel, promises that are irrevocable, and so Israel are still Gods chosen people. (Romans 11)
Jesus is known as the bridegroom, and the church is His bride.
In Jewish tradition the bridegroom must  provide a home for His bride before they are officially allowed to live together, in Jewish tradition it is quite acceptable for that home to be in the bridegroom’s Father’s house, so when Jesus said He was going to prepare a place for us in His Father’s house, this includes all believers, the bride of Christ,  not just a few elite JW’s. and not just His Faithful and loved Disciples (who being Jewish themselves woud have totally understood what Jesus was alluding to)

2 Corinthians 11
Paul and the False Apostles

1I hope you will put up with a little of my foolishness; but you are already doing that. 2I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 3But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 5But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those “super-apostles.” 6I may not be a trained speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way.



You rightly say the twelve disciples will be seated on twelve thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel. The 144,000 anointed  of Christ Jesus are Jewish men, 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes, again these are not 14.000 elite J.W ‘s.(this is flawed teaching from the WT society)

Quote:
You have been offered great insight by many who have it, but you have chosen to turn it down, so it should be no surprise to you that your understanding of scripture is practically non existent.


In the previous scripture there are warnings about people who will come preaching a Jesus that Paul did not or a different gospel  to which Paul taught. Paul says we should not put up with this, so there is a warning there for you James. You have relied on the WT society for your teaching, I have relied on the teacher that Jesus promised us, The Holy Spirit, Jesus said He would lead us into all truth and understanding, I trust Jesus.

Quote:
There are no Hebrew words for rank and order, but the word used to explain authority is[[ heaven]], heaven gives man authority the higher the authority the higher place it comes from in the heavens.
For example Jesus comes from the higher heavens, but here is where it gets tricky for the Trinitarians Jehovah is above the heavens.
In Jude when there was a dispute with the Devil over the body of Moses Jesus called on the highest authority to rebuke him and not give him what he was craving.
If Jehovah could rebuke Satan then he was obviously not earth bound as the Demon’s are.

Jude 9
But when Michael the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses’ body, he did not dare to bring a judgment against him in abusive terms, but said: May Jehovah rebuke you
.

This is another problem for you James, because of the WT erroneous teachings you have come to believe Jesus is the Angel Michael, this is clearly false, Jesus is The Creator, not a created being. Jesus had no problem rebuking satan when satan tried to tempt Him in the wilderness because Jesus is the Adonai YHWH and He has the authority whether in heaven or on Earth, in fact Jesus has given us believers  the authority, and if we resist satan in Jesus’ name he must flee from us (James 4:7). Why would the demons be earthbound but not satan? When satan was cast out the demons (fallen angels) were cast out at the same time.

The Disciples were thrilled that even the demons submitted to them in the name of Jesus!
Jesus was pleased for them, but He told them the real celebration was the fact that their names are written in the lambs book of life!

Is your name written in the lambs book of life james ?

I truly would love to think so.  

Honey


Only five of the virgins have entered in, the five foolish are now gnashing their teeth because they missed the boat and now the door is shut to them
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:
Quote:




Is your name written in the lambs book of life james ?

I truly would love to think so.  

Honey


Only five of the virgins have entered in, the five foolish are now gnashing their teeth because they missed the boat and now the door is shut to them


I am sorry you feel that way James,
But my bible tells me that God wants 'all people to come to a knowlege of him and be saved' so as far as I am aware it will only be too late when we are unable to accept Jesus as our Lord and saviour, when we have no life left in us. 'He is knocking at the door, if we let Him, He will come in and live with us'
Some of us have already taken that step, the rest of us should seek the Lord whilst He may be found'

Or as my Mum would say, " one of these days you will wake up dead, and then it will be too late"  

Honey
JamesJah

Have you heard this trupet yet?

Revelation 11:15
The seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.

Who does the king rule over and when?
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:
Have you heard this trupet yet?

Revelation 11:15
The seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.

Who does the king rule over and when?


James,

Jesus has not return yet.
Even after you have been shown how wrong the WT society has been over this in the past, you still believe that Jesus has returned invisibly and is ruling on earth as we speak? I am sorry for you James, truly I am, but you are so bound up in false teaching, we cannot get through to you.

Jesus himself  said, He would return like a theief in the night, suddenly and that we should keep watch for the signs He gave us, He also said that every eye would see His return.
If you would rather believe what the watchtower teaches than what Jesus actually said, as recoded in the scriptures, then I am at a loss.......

So, So sorry James.

Honey
JamesJah

When Jesus came as a thief what criteria could he use to choose his faithful slave from all the religions of the world?
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:
When Jesus came as a thief what criteria could he use to choose his faithful slave from all the religions of the world?



How many times do the WT society teach you that Jesus will return, forget the failed prophesy, but according to the scriptures?

Once when He was born a Human, twice when He returns to rule.

How many times in between ?
gone

I just find it so sad that some people can believe fantastical scenarios have any basis in reality.
Powwow

Willow, I'm shocked!lol Don't be sad, be HAPPY for us.
JamesJah

Honey 56 wrote:
JamesJah wrote:
When Jesus came as a thief what criteria could he use to choose his faithful slave from all the religions of the world?



How many times do the WT society teach you that Jesus will return, forget the failed prophesy, but according to the scriptures?

Once when He was born a Human, twice when He returns to rule.

How many times in between ?


Have you found the difference between presence and coming yet?

What I meen is do you still use the old KJV?
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:
Honey 56 wrote:
JamesJah wrote:
When Jesus came as a thief what criteria could he use to choose his faithful slave from all the religions of the world?



How many times do the WT society teach you that Jesus will return, forget the failed prophesy, but according to the scriptures?

Once when He was born a Human, twice when He returns to rule.

How many times in between ?


Have you found the difference between presence and coming yet?

What I meen is do you still use the old KJV?


Unlike you James I have never used the KJV, but just for clarity....

parousia: a presence, a coming
Original Word: παρουσία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: parousia
Phonetic Spelling: (par-oo-see'-ah)
Short Definition: presence, a coming, arrival, advent
Definition: (a) presence, (b) a coming, an arrival, advent, especially of the second coming of Christ.



3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially the arrival of the owner who alone can deal with a situation (cf. LS). 3952 (parousía) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit' " (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S).

I am not aware of any other translation apart from the NWT that translates this word as presence, but no other translation is dishonest enough to twist the scriptures to fit in with their dubious teaching.

Now, how about doing me the courtesy of answering my questions for a change?

Honey  
JamesJah

Presence and coming are two different words in Greek, but the KJV chooses to translate both as coming which is the dishonest bit the same as they did with hell, is it not?
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:
Presence and coming are two different words in Greek, but the KJV chooses to translate both as coming which is the dishonest bit the same as they did with hell, is it not?


Hi James,
Please could you show some evidence of these two different words and how they are used within context.

For instance Mathew says.....

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.


He doesn't say "The son of Man is going to be present......."

BTW There are many greek words for presence also but as always context is king.

Honey  

Ps.I don't use a KJV so cannot comment, but if you were to google a good bible site such as biblos or biblegateway, you will see first hand how this word is translated and in which context.
gone

pow wow wrote:
Willow, I'm shocked!lol Don't be sad, be HAPPY for us.


Sorry I am not when I know for a fact that it can lead to such unpleasantness and abuse, as the whole concept is horrible.
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
Have you heard this trupet yet?

Revelation 11:15
The seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.

Who does the king rule over and when?


Is the King of this kingdom Mighty God, as we are taught by YHWH though His Prophet Isaiah, and do those in Kingdom Halls serve Him (Mighty God) ?

LeClerc
JamesJah

It is not what I say, but what do the scriptures say, once you get that off to a fine start, you will know that we do not speak of our own originality, but as Jehovah speaks through his son, and his son though the angels, so do we speak also.
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
It is not what I say, but what do the scriptures say, once you get that off to a fine start, you will know that we do not speak of our own originality, but as Jehovah speaks through his son, and his son though the angels, so do we speak also.


So what do you believe the scriptures teach James please share with us.

JamesJah wrote:
Have you heard this trupet yet?

Revelation 11:15
The seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.

Who does the king rule over and when?


Is the King of this kingdom Mighty God, as we are taught by YHWH though His Prophet Isaiah, and do those in Kingdom Halls serve Him (Mighty God) ?

LeClerc
JamesJah

The scripture certainly does not say he is equal with the almighty nor does it say he is a trinity but it does say that he is a mighty god higher than man and now higher than the creatures that inhabit the heavens he now is the Almighty’s right hand man that is worthy to open the seals that no one else was able to do.

Revelation 5:9, 10
They sing a new song, saying:

You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

You made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.
Honey 56

Bumped for James Jah.

Quote:
JamesJah wrote:
Presence and coming are two different words in Greek, but the KJV chooses to translate both as coming which is the dishonest bit the same as they did with hell, is it not?



Hi James,
Please could you show some evidence of these two different words and how they are used within context.

For instance Mathew says.....

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.

He doesn't say "The son of Man is going to be present......."

BTW There are many greek words for presence also but as always context is king.

Honey  

Ps.I don't use a KJV so cannot comment, but if you were to google a good bible site such as biblos or biblegateway, you will see first hand how this word is translated and in which context.
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
The scripture certainly does not say he is equal with the almighty nor does it say he is a trinity but it does say that he is a mighty god


What is the identity of this mighty god James.

According to your teaching He is Elohiym other than YHWH Elohiym

YHWH has much to say about walking after and serving other Elohiym.

Jeremiah 25 New World Translation
6And do not walk after other gods in order to serve them and to bow down to them, that ​YOU​ may not offend me with the work of ​YOUR​ hands, and that I may not cause calamity to ​YOU.’


LeClerc
Farmer Geddon

Honey 56 wrote:
...

Ps.I don't use a KJV, so cannot comment....


Just out of curiosity - what do you use?
JamesJah

Why not just take Jesus advice and be a doer of the word?

Matthew 6:9, 10
You must pray, then, this way: Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place,

Do you find any instructions where he told us to pray to him this way?
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
The scripture certainly does not say he is equal with the almighty nor does it say he is a trinity but it does say that he is a mighty god


What is the identity of this mighty god James.

According to your teaching He is Elohiym other than YHWH Elohiym

YHWH has much to say about walking after and serving other Elohiym.

Jeremiah 25 New World Translation
6And do not walk after other gods in order to serve them and to bow down to them, that ​YOU​ may not offend me with the work of ​YOUR​ hands, and that I may not cause calamity to ​YOU.’


LeClerc
Honey 56

Farmer Geddon wrote:
Honey 56 wrote:
...

Ps.I don't use a KJV, so cannot comment....


Just out of curiosity - what do you use?


Hi Farmer,  

For quick reference my very ancient NIV which was presented to me at my baptism in 1987, I am very familiar with it's layout and I know where most of the scriptures are and can find them very quickly, it was all I had for quite a few years.

For ease of access, when I need scriptures on the forum I us the biblos or biblegateway  sites, they have all the tools and translation readily accessable.

For personal study,  my ancient and very tatty NIV. A Hebrew/Greek/English interlinear bible that is word numbered for ease of access to a Strong's concordance.

But my absolute favouite at the moment, a new, recently aquired Complete Jewish bible, which I love and have started reading from right at the beginning, B'resheet (even the introduction, which is facinating!)

You are very knowlegable about the bible, which do you use?  I have been trying to get the courage to ask you, do you have Jewish roots? I do hope that question is not too personal? just ignore me if it is.

Honey
Farmer Geddon

LOL - No it's not personal, but to understand the Greek bible you have to at least have a working knowledge of the Hebrew one.

I'm neither "Christian" or "Jewish", but I have studied both in the original koine, which is what the writers of the Greek bible used as their reference.

I have only recently tried to understand the Hebrew in its original form - but it is too much like hard work because I have lost my enthusiasm over the past few years.

When it comes to the interpretations of the Hebrew Scriptures; I tend to ask the "Jews" directly what it means to them, because the Greek translations tend to be a bit skewed in favour of what they want them to say.

Can I just say that the "CJB" is an absolute monstrosity and to be avoided, unless you want to be totally lead astray, it makes the KJV seem like an actual "gospel"!!
Honey 56

Farmer Geddon wrote:
LOL - No it's not personal, but to understand the Greek bible you have to at least have a working knowledge of the Hebrew one.

I'm neither "Christian" or "Jewish", but I have studied both in the original koine, which is what the writers of the Greek bible used as their reference.

I have only recently tried to understand the Hebrew in its original form - but it is too much like hard work because I have lost my enthusiasm over the past few years.

When it comes to the interpretations of the Hebrew Scriptures; I tend to ask the "Jews" directly what it means to them, because the Greek translations tend to be a bit skewed in favour of what they want them to say.

Can I just say that the "CJB" is an absolute monstrosity and to be avoided, unless you want to be totally lead astray, it makes the KJV seem like an actual "gospel"!!


That's interesting, it's good to study just for the learning experience, but it is a great shame that you have lost enthusiasm for the Hebrew, perhaps it will return after a break? I am not so clever and will probably never be able to understand the Hebrew or Greek language, so I cheat and consult other peoples work (people who do understand it)  

I often go to the Jewish encyclopeadia (website) to try to understand the meaning behind  some of the Jewish traditions and words.

Whatever anyone says/thinks about what is written about  Jesus, He was a Jew, and to understand what is written about Him, it helps to understand some things about Judaism.

I am sad that you don't rate the CJB, I am loving it, probably because of the Jewish names and expressions, and because of it's 'Jewishness' it makes me identify more with Jesus.

But I am reading it as you would any other book, more for the storyline.

I enjoy reading your posts, BTW, the one about the 'presents' made me  

Honey/Bee.
Farmer Geddon

Hmm, which is all very nice, but the Greek bible was constructed to be congruent with the philosophy of it's readers

This nonsense which is called the "Complete Jewish bible" is as false as the ones the JW's or Mormons adhere to, at least the ones they follow are a lot older!!

The "CJB" is an abomination.
bnabernard

If all gods are one with God then its not hard to see a plurality in Elohim, and a division to El for a singuler reference to God alone.


As you say FG with a predetermined mind then the outcome suits the predetermined mine, and in the case of chriistianity it ends up like a pool full of people who can't swim who drown each other to keep their own heads above water.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
and a division to El for a singuler reference to God alone.

bernard (hug)


If thats the road you want to go down Bernie.

Isaiah 9 New World Translation
6For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

The Hebrew word translated God in the above passage is El.

LeClerc
JamesJah

How is Jesus the one God?

Mark 10:18,
Jesus said to him: Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God.
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
How is Jesus the one God?

Mark 10:18,
Jesus said to him: Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God.


Are you now teaching that Y'shua was not good but bad ?  

LeClerc
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:
How is Jesus the one God?

Mark 10:18,
Jesus said to him: Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God.



Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.

This was not meant as a rebuke to the young Man, Jesus  did not say, "Do not call me God", He was  trying to understand whether this man truly recognised who He was, (He did this often with people, especially those who did give up everything to follow Him) Jesus instructed the young man to obey the commandments and we all know what the first commandment is, this should have given the young man a clue (especially when you consider the Divine and Godly acts that Jesus carried out and which were witnessed by many), but when Jesus asked the ultimate sacrifice from this young man, that he parted with all his worldly riches and follow Jesus, the young mans heart was obviously not in the right condition, he would not give up everything to aquire the 'pearl of great price'

By comparison, when Thomas, suddenly realised after all the time he had followed Jesus, who He really was ………

But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it.”
26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”


Jesus did not rebuke Thomas, because Thomas told the truth.
Notice Jesus also said, blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed"
Are you among the blessed of the Lord James?

Honey
bnabernard

As I said me ole mucker, consider the plurality, mighty God in the singuler and almighty God in the singuler,
Next of course we might get confused over Father, unless of course we are on the spot, in the environment, then though there is one Father of ''All'' a creator and there is an Father of man in the new Adam.
One heavenly Father and one of flesh who shares his blood with mankind.

One can get tripped up I think over the understanding of eternal as in erternal from a point or infinite in existence.

Then, was there darkness before creation, was there life before creation, is God light and is God life?

Does God create outside of Himself and expose Himself to size and dimension and a lack of infinite, or is God (Almighty) infinite?


Being restricted in the imagination to what has been seen and known the unimaginal becomes what the label says.

Conception gives rise to birth, now theres an idea to think about  

Potted so I hope it's come across.

bernie (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
As I said me ole mucker, consider the plurality, mighty God in the singuler and almighty God in the singuler,
Next of course we might get confused over Father, unless of course we are on the spot, in the environment, then though there is one Father of ''All'' a creator and there is an Father of man in the new Adam.
One heavenly Father and one of flesh who shares his blood with mankind.

One can get tripped up I think over the understanding of eternal as in erternal from a point or infinite in existence.

Then, was there darkness before creation, was there life before creation, is God light and is God life?

Does God create outside of Himself and expose Himself to size and dimension and a lack of infinite, or is God (Almighty) infinite?


Being restricted in the imagination to what has been seen and known the unimaginal becomes what the label says.

Conception gives rise to birth, now theres an idea to think about  

Potted so I hope it's come across.

bernie (hug)


The name of the Mighty God is ?

Isaiah 10 New World Translation
21 A mere remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God

LeClerc
JamesJah

What is it about this scripture you difficult to understand.

1 Corinthians 8:5, 6
For even though there are those who are called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many lords,

there is actually to us one God the Father,

out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.

Honey 56

4So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are **so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, *through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Compare

6For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called Wonderful Counselor , Mighty God  Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace
Isaiah 9.


so called gods and lords James.

Honey
JamesJah

Because so many would have difficulty with it having been indoctrinated with the false teaching of the trinity, just as people like yourself for example.

The Almighty is above the heavens and only he.
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:
Because so many would have difficulty with it having been indoctrinated with the false teaching of the trinity, just as people like yourself for example.

The Almighty is above the heavens and only he.


Indoctrinated James?

Are we intsructed at least twice every week, all over the world on the same day with the same literature produced by a governing body, whom we are not allowed to query, never mind disagree with or hold differing opinions to? and is this governing body guilty of false prophesy and so leading many thousands astray from a sincere and correct belief in Christ Jesus..

Not me!

Honey
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
What is it about this scripture you difficult to understand.

1 Corinthians 8:5, 6
For even though there are those who are called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many lords,

there is actually to us one God the Father,

out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.



Try reading those passages with a Hebraic mindset then all becomes clear.

Would you like me to explain ?

LeClerc
JamesJah

Do you know where the Faithful slave is Honey, and what that slave is about in the last days?

Which fruit of which tree are you eating?

There is only one tree of life to eat from and all those that wish for life must eat from it?

Or do you think that you are an exception to the rule?
JamesJah

LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
What is it about this scripture you difficult to understand.

1 Corinthians 8:5, 6
For even though there are those who are called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many lords,

there is actually to us one God the Father,

out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.



Try reading those passages with a Hebraic mindset then all becomes clear.

Would you like me to explain ?

LeClerc


Must admit that mindset would be quite the reverse of the Popes mindset and his trinity bit
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
Do you know where the Faithful slave is Honey, and what that slave is about in the last days?

Which fruit of which tree are you eating?

There is only one tree of life to eat from and all those that wish for life must eat from it?

Or do you think that you are an exception to the rule?


Before being able to eat of the tree of life one needs to be grafted into another tree do you know the identity of that tree James and if so have you been grafted in and when?

LeClerc
JamesJah

Sorry LeClerc; but the tree of life is available to all but they do have to eat from it.
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
Sorry LeClerc; but the tree of life is available to all but they do have to eat from it.


Revelation 22 NWT
14 Happy are those who wash their robes, that the authority [to go] to the trees of life may be theirs and that they may gain entrance into the city by its gates.

A washing is needed James, and through the washing one is grafted into another tree.

Do you know the identity of that tree James and if so have you been grafted in, how, and when?

LeClerc
JamesJah

Which brings us to the root of the matter how can one get grafted in to something that they have no knowledge of?

Once the Kings and priests have life, who do they rule over a lifeless planet perhaps?

John 17:3
This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

Not too many today wish to do things Jehovah’s way but to keep doing what is acceptable to the world at it’s ways. All those that follow the ways of the world will suffer the indignity of the world when it is no more.

That is why many here are just stumbling blocks to the truth saying they are free in Christ when in reality they are slaves to their desires, not to have the ostracism of the Christ, with their love of independent thinking, or higher learning that keeps them thinking that they know what Jehovah should be doing as against what he is really doing.

1 Corinthians 1:10
Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.
LeClerc

JamesJah wrote:
Which brings us to the root of the matter how can one get grafted in to something that they have no knowledge of?

John 17:3
This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.


Indeed James

Which is why taking in accurate knowledeg is important.

What is the identity of this Mighty God.

According to your teaching Y'shua is Elohiym other than YHWH Elohiym

YHWH has much to say about walking after and serving other Elohiym.

Jeremiah 25 New World Translation
6And do not walk after other gods in order to serve them and to bow down to them, that ​YOU​ may not offend me with the work of ​YOUR​ hands, and that I may not cause calamity to ​YOU.’

Because you have not taken in accurate knowledge and have been led to believe Y'shua is Elohiym other than YHWH Elohiym you teach the following

John who wrote one of the Gospels broke Torah and instructed his readers to do the same.

Those who walked after Y'shua broke Torah.

but most tragically your false teaching has The Messiah, Y'shua breaking Torah making null and void the Gospel

Maybe thats because you did not recognize the Adversary when He is present.

LeClerc
JamesJah

Which Elohiym does Jesus hand the Kingdom over too at the end of the thousand years rule?
bnabernard

Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? [or] shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake [itself] against them that lift it up, [or] as if the staff should lift up [itself, as if it were] no wood.

An example from Isaiah 10 to why the son gives credit to the Father.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bi...mp;c=10&v=1&t=KJV#conc/20  ( press c to find yehovah instead of Lord) an interesting read throughout.

bernard (hug)
JamesJah

Nice one Berney hows the fishing?
bnabernard

Fishing, just as sparce as the runner beans this year  

Elohiym in the plural http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bi...amp;c=35&v=1&t=KJV#conc/4

bernard (hug)
bnabernard

Isaiah 36 & 37 refer to (Yehovah) Lord and God  (Elohiym) in the same breath, yet while a plurality is indicated by Elohiym in translation their is a definite singularity in God rather than a plurality as in Gods.

For some this plurality would indicate the son as inclusive bringing about a duality, however the use of the singuler in translation would suggest otherwise, which is seen later in Isaiah as God refers to He alone, which I'll go look for.

bernard (hug)
bnabernard

and while I do that

http://www.blueletterbible.org/st...3&v=1&t=KJV#as_1_Isa_44_2

with a pointer to Isaiah 43:7

And why not point out Isaiah 49 drwing attention to 5 & 6

bernard (hug)
bnabernard

Ok

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bi...amp;c=45&v=1&t=KJV#conc/5

now why the use of Elohiym when Yehovah is being specific in being alone, bearing in mind the previous reference to the son being created.

bernard (hug)
JamesJah

Thanks Berney I must try beans some time they will be a saving only one apple on the tree this year something wrong there.

I see the vowel sign that could be an a but it is an E the L, H, and Y also the M where does the I come from? Are we guessing vowels again?
JamesJah

By the way Berney plurality gives and indication of greatness, not how many. I think it is due to a shortage of vocabulary in the old days, hence you heaven with numbers on, to indicate greatness and why Jehovah is above the heavens.
bnabernard

Hi, been a bad year for fruit, a handful off two pear trees, no apples, normaly the boughs are heaving..
Bad year all round in the garden, chickweed thriving and bind weed comming on a treat not to mention the dandelions    

You'l have to check the links for vowels, not my brief  

Anyhow am going back into dormant, bye for now all as I go into dormant observation.

bernard (hug)
JamesJah

Night, night Berney, the vowel thing was a little sprat for one of you mates.

LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
Which Elohiym does Jesus hand the Kingdom over too at the end of the thousand years rule?


The echad with the same Name.

LeClerc
JamesJah

Why would he do that if he is a trinity?
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
Why would he do that if he is a trinity?


You tell me James I didn't say that you did.

LeClerc
LeClerc

Hi James and your friend Bernie

JamesJah wrote:
Night, night Berney, the vowel thing was a little sprat for one of you mates.



bnabernard wrote:
Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? [or] shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake [itself] against them that lift it up, [or] as if the staff should lift up [itself, as if it were] no wood.

An example from Isaiah 10 to why the son gives credit to the Father.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bi...mp;c=10&v=1&t=KJV#conc/20  ( press c to find yehovah instead of Lord) an interesting read throughout.

bernard (hug)


bnabernard wrote:
Fishing, just as sparce as the runner beans this year  

Elohiym in the plural http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bi...amp;c=35&v=1&t=KJV#conc/4

bernard (hug)


bnabernard wrote:
Isaiah 36 & 37 refer to (Yehovah) Lord and God  (Elohiym) in the same breath, yet while a plurality is indicated by Elohiym in translation their is a definite singularity in God rather than a plurality as in Gods.

For some this plurality would indicate the son as inclusive bringing about a duality, however the use of the singuler in translation would suggest otherwise, which is seen later in Isaiah as God refers to He alone, which I'll go look for.

bernard (hug)

bnabernard wrote:
and while I do that

http://www.blueletterbible.org/st...3&v=1&t=KJV#as_1_Isa_44_2

with a pointer to Isaiah 43:7

And why not point out Isaiah 49 drwing attention to 5 & 6

bernard (hug)


bnabernard wrote:
Ok

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bi...amp;c=45&v=1&t=KJV#conc/5

now why the use of Elohiym when Yehovah is being specific in being alone, bearing in mind the previous reference to the son being created.

bernard (hug)


Bernie

Elohiym is morphologically plural. Morphology refers to the "shape" or construction of a word - its form. As far as meaning, though, elohiym can be either singular or plural depending on context. As anyone who has taken a language can testify, meaning is determined by context, not by a list of glosses in a dictionary (which are only options – the translator must look to context for accuracy).

How do you determine if ''sheep'' is singular or plural.

JamesJah wrote:
Which brings us to the root of the matter how can one get grafted in to something that they have no knowledge of?

John 17:3
This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.


Indeed James.

Which is why taking in accurate knowledeg is important.

What is the identity of this Mighty God.

According to your teaching Y'shua is a God other than YHWH God

YHWH has much to say about walking after and serving other gods.

Jeremiah 25 New World Translation
6And do not walk after other gods in order to serve them and to bow down to them, that YOU may not offend me with the work of YOUR hands, and that I may not cause calamity to YOU.’

Because you have not taken in accurate knowledge and have been led to believe Y'shua is a God other than YHWH God you teach the following

John who wrote one of the Gospels broke Torah and instructed his readers to do the same.

Those who walked after Y'shua broke Torah.

but most tragically your false teaching has The Messiah, Y'shua breaking Torah making null and void the Gospel

LeClerc
JamesJah

Looks like Jesus disagrees with you LeClerc.

Matthew 4:10, 11
Go away, Satan! For it is written, It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.

Then the Devil left him, and, look! angels came and began to minister to him.

1 Corinthians 8:1-3
.we know we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. If anyone thinks he has acquired knowledge of something, he does not yet know [it] just as he ought to know [it]. But if anyone loves God, this one is known by him.
Honey 56

Quote:
[quote="JamesJah:77532"]Looks like Jesus disagrees with you LeClerc.

Matthew 4:10, 11
Go away, Satan! For it is written, It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.

Then the Devil left him, and, look! angels came and began to minister to him.



Well of course Jesus would not worship satan, He quite rightly said that worship belongs to the Lord God Almighty, however, can you explain why Jesus was perfectly at ease accepting the worship that was quite rightly given to Him.

32And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. 33Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

Truly He is The Son of God and all that signifies.

Honey
JamesJah

No wonder you find the truth so difficult Honey.

What is the sacred secret of the judgement?
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:
No wonder you find the truth so difficult Honey.

What is the sacred secret of the judgement?


You are still answering one question with another, is it supposed to be enigmatic or something?

BTW I have no problem identifying the truth from a lie, it's not difficult, trusting in Jesus as the word of God, He is the truth!

Honey
JamesJah

If you have the truth why is it you are not able to answer what are simple questions for a JW to answer?
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:
If you have the truth why is it you are not able to answer what are simple questions for a JW to answer?


I think an honesy appraisal of this thread will show James, it is you who do not answer our questions.
I personally have reaponded to many of your posts, the fact that they fall on deaf ears and eyes that refuse to see is hardly our fault James.

For example, this was not a rhetorical question.

Well of course Jesus would not worship satan, He quite rightly said that worship belongs to the Lord God Almighty, however, can you explain why Jesus was perfectly at ease accepting the worship that was quite rightly given to Him?

here....
32And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. 33Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

If you really can't answer James, that is ok, but if you continualy ignore questions or answer with more questions, we won't get anywhere, will we?

Honey
cyberman

Honey 56 wrote:
If you really can't answer James, that is ok, but if you continualy ignore questions or answer with more questions, we won't get anywhere, will we?



I am very glad that you have realised that this is the case. You absolutely will not get anywhere.
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
Looks like Jesus disagrees with you LeClerc.
.


The Watchtower teaches, and you yourself believe, that Y'shua is a Mighty God but not YHWH God.

YHWH teaches us

Jeremiah 25 New World Translation
6And do not walk after other gods in order to serve them and to bow down to them, that YOU may not offend me with the work of YOUR hands, and that I may not cause calamity to YOU.’

Scripture teaches us the following

Mark 1 NWT
17So Jesus said to them: “Come after me, and I shall cause YOU to become fishers of men.”

Romans 14 NWT
18For he who in this regard slaves for Christ is acceptable to God and has approval with men.

John 9 NWT
38Then he said: “I do put faith [in him], Lord.” And he did obeisance to him.

If Y’shua is a God, other than YHWH God, then the commandments of YHWH are being broken by

Y’shua’s disciples
Y’shua himself
The writers of The New Testament.

Since we know this is not true, The Watchtowers teaching on who Y’shua is, a God other than YHWH God, has to be a false teaching, by applying the test of scripture.

LeClerc
JamesJah

The people who publish the WT right that there is only one almighty God mentioned in the bible, and that is not Jesus, in no place is he called Almighty. OK
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
The people who publish the WT right that there is only one almighty God mentioned in the bible, and that is not Jesus, in no place is he called Almighty. OK


It's clear from the scriptures that Y'shua is YHWH, are you now saying YHWH is not Almighty God ?

as I have already posted but you have ignored

The Watchtower teaches, and you yourself believe, that Y'shua is a Mighty God but not YHWH God.

YHWH teaches us

Jeremiah 25 New World Translation
6And do not walk after other gods in order to serve them and to bow down to them, that YOU may not offend me with the work of YOUR hands, and that I may not cause calamity to YOU.’

Scripture teaches us the following

Mark 1 NWT
17So Jesus said to them: “Come after me, and I shall cause YOU to become fishers of men.”

Romans 14 NWT
18For he who in this regard slaves for Christ is acceptable to God and has approval with men.

John 9 NWT
38Then he said: “I do put faith [in him], Lord.” And he did obeisance to him.

If Y’shua is a God, other than YHWH God, then the commandments of YHWH are being broken by

Y’shua’s disciples
Y’shua himself
The writers of The New Testament.

Since we know this is not true, The Watchtowers teaching on who Y’shua is, a God other than YHWH God, has to be a false teaching, by applying the test of scripture.

LeClerc

       nglreturns.myfreeforum.org Forum Index -> Christian chat
Page 1 of 1
Create your own free forum | Buy a domain to use with your forum