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Farmer Geddon

"Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"

Now who were these us and what were they like?
Ketty

[groundhog day]

I AM!  God - the Father, God - the Son, God - the Holy Spirit.

Those who deny the Trinity say that when God says, "Let Us make..." He is speaking with the angels in mind.  Angels do not create.

[/groundhog day]
JamesJah

The word Angel means messenger of God, heavenly creatures have power to do also the will of the Almighty one, so why would the Almighty indulge in work that his servants can do?

Solomon built the temple did he as much as shape one stone?

Colossians 1:13-20
He delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love, by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities.

All [other] things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist,

and he is the head of the body, the congregation.

He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things; because [God] saw good for all fullness to dwell in him, and through him to reconcile again to himself all [other] things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, no matter whether they are the things
Farmer Geddon

What about the "male and female created He them"

Son, Father - ok that's the male part sorted. Is the HS the female bit??



"And God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them".

Sorry, but it states that God created man in His own image, in fact it tells us so twice in the same sentence.

I see no reference to a Son, and/or angels!!
JamesJah

The word angels had not even been invented then all were sons of God.

As we find out later some were obedient sons, and some not so.

Earth people have come to be caught in the middle, hence the writing of the bible, so that it is possible to understand why we are in such a mess.

Job 38:4-8
Where did you happen to be when I founded the earth? Tell [me], if you do know understanding.  Who set its measurements, in case you know, Or who stretched out upon it the measuring line?  Into what have its socket pedestals been sunk down, Or who laid its cornerstone,  

When the morning stars joyfully cried out together,

And all the sons of God began shouting in applause
Ketty

Lynne wrote:
There is only ONE REASON I posted on this thread


Lynne, you may fool some of the people some of the time, you may even fool yourself, but there are many reasons you choose to keep coming back here, and I submit that every single reason is nothing at all to do with the LORD God Almighty*.

Judders Lady... wrote:

the LORD* is not happy with people who tell lies about the Trinity or change his word.


Aye!  With that I agree.

* I AM: The triune Godhead: God in three persons - God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

trentvoyager

Judders Lady... wrote:
Ketty wrote:
[groundhog day]

I AM!  God - the Father, God - the Son, God - the Holy Spirit.

Those who deny the Trinity say that when God says, "Let Us make..." He is speaking with the angels in mind.  Angels do not create.

[/groundhog day]


Can't you tell that she never read the bible just makes it up as she goes along. Holds to a man made teaching about the Trinity.
God is God and then there is the Son of God and the Holy Spirit.
All one as we are one in  Christ and God who were made one by the Holy Spirit.
Taught by God and Christ but ignored by those who prefer the teachings of man which divides only those not in the Spirit so they fall because they have no love for truth.

Job 38 (King James Version)

 



1.Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2.Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3.Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4.Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5.Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6.Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7.When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?


Seems false teachings cause those people to ignore what the bible teaches.
TRUTH is never acceptable -neither are those who belong to Christ; if they insist on speaking the it.

There is only ONE REASON I posted on this thread.
Because the LORD is not happy with people who tell lies about the Trinity or change his word. As you can see when God laid the foundations of the earth the Morning stars sang together and the SONS OF GOD which are angels and those like Christ who do as their Father does _ all shouted for Joy.

WHY WHY WHY say something totally untrue and misleading.
If you are going to make statements about God and what he did to an atheist.... then at least get it right.



PREACHING FROM ONE TRUE CHRISTIAN WHO SHOULDN'T ACCORDING TO HER OWN WORDS BE POSTING HERE AT ALL.

HYPOCRISY YOU ARE VERY SASSY.
Powwow

"And God said, Let us make man in our image,"  Gen. 1:26
The us and our is the first indication of the triunity of God. Elohim, which is the name of God, is a plural form of El. Those two plural pronouns tell me that there is a plurality of relationships in the Godhead and verse 26 also shows communion and consultation among the members of the Holy Trinity
Ketty

Lynne, you may fool some of the people some of the time, you may even fool yourself**, but there are many reasons you choose to keep coming back here, and I submit that every single reason is nothing at all to do with the LORD God Almighty*.

Judders Lady... wrote:

the LORD* is not happy with people who tell lies about the Trinity or change his word.


Aye!  With that I agree.

** PS: I forgot to say: but most of all, the one person you cannot fool is God*

* I AM: The triune Godhead: God in three persons - God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

JamesJah

When did Jesus say pray to him?>>>>>

Matthew 6:9
You must pray, then, this way: Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.


When did Jesus say he was equal to the Father?>>>>

John 14:28
If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.


Philippians 2:5-8
Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death,
Powwow

"Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the CROSS."

Equal with God. The Greek word for equal defines things that are exactly the same in number, size, quality, quantity, and character. Christ is equal in every sense and claimed to be so many times during His earthly ministry.
Form of God. The word for form is morphe and it is used to express how a thing exists and appears according to what it is in itself. Form of God-the essential nature and character of God
Christ made himself of no reputation, a self renunciation. Christ set aside His heavenly glory, His independent authority, His divine prerogatives, His eternal riches, and His favorable relationship with God the Father. During Christ's incarnation He submitted Himself to the Father and to the direction of the Holy Spirit, He did not empty Himself of deity.
JamesJah

How could Christ pray to his father to restore a position as it was when he left if he had not given it up to become a human?
Powwow

Christ never prayed to the Father to have His deity restored. He never lost it. Christ submitted to the Father and to the direction of the Holy Spirit when He chose to come to earth to sacrifice Himself for us. This was NOT an exchange of deity for humanity. If Christ had not humbled Himself and took on our attributes and died for us, He could not have been elevated from the lowest degree back to His heavenly glory as the substitute for sin. Christ needed to take on our attributes and identify with our human needs and weaknesses. He did so and became the God-Man, fully God and fully man. This is something He wasn't before His incarnation.
bnabernard

How about when Moses took the initative and struck the rock ?

bernard  
JamesJah

Hallow Bernuie

That god man bit got him into some hot water did it not?

Jim
bnabernard



bernie  
Powwow

bernard,
LOL! What does the sin of Moses have to do with the deity of God the Son?
JamesJah

Moses  in his exasperation took credit for something that the Almighty should have had credit for.
Powwow

Numbers chapter 20? I'm not sure of the degree of frustration Moses was feeling. My Bible says nothing on it. However the people were in rebellion against Moses. Instead of speaking to the rock as God has instructed, Moses chose to disobey and not believe God. Moses spoke to the people and struck the rock. By doing so Moses was in rebellion against God.
Rebellion against God is the condition of the watchtower and every kingdom hall.
bnabernard

pow wow wrote:
Numbers chapter 20? I'm not sure of the degree of frustration Moses was feeling. My Bible says nothing on it. However the people were in rebellion against Moses. Instead of speaking to the rock as God has instructed, Moses chose to disobey and not believe God. Moses spoke to the people and struck the rock. By doing so Moses was in rebellion against God.
Rebellion against God is the condition of the watchtower and every kingdom hall.


Well I'm sure I don't know what the underlined quote has to do with anything other than to show a one track mind.

So back on subject:- Moses was specifically told to speak to the rock and water would flow, however in his impatience with the crowds he struck the rock, but none the less the water flowed.

So here you have an example of Gods authority in a man, Moses as a representative/apostle/shaliach of God to the people and for the people he in the heat of the moment works according to his own will while operating under the authority of God, one could say, as I do, that Moses was God as Moses alone without God could not make water flow from a rock.

Many short cuts are made by the theory/proposition of a triune God because God effectively is greater than any trinity giving of Himself where ever He choses and bestowing power to whoever He chooses.

No doubt there are a great many who determine themselves to be of faith and place their foundation of faith in the teachings of man, as in the triune teaching of man, however there are none that can move mountains by their faith and not even able to make water flow from a rock by sppeaking or smitting.

bernard  
Powwow

"...a one track mind." As in the watchtower's claim it alone is the prophet of Jehovah. LOL
bnabernard

pow wow wrote:
"...a one track mind." As in the watchtower's claim it alone is the prophet of Jehovah. LOL


One track mind in assuming every non trinitatian is somehow involved with the watchtower, from my own experience of those who do, over say the last fifty years, they were the ones who made a point of going out and announcing God as having a name, and point out thast the trinity was a false religion.

However if pow wow wants to follow a false teaching and say it's alright for him/her to be in error because he/she can naame other people who he/she believes are in error, I'm afraid I have to announce that your error will not have any bearing on anothers. Your error is for you to answewr yourself.

bernard  
JamesJah

What is a multiplicity of gods?

LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE

       

 
Powwow

LOL! Want to know how I know who is messed up by the watchtower? By the word torture stake. LOL! I did not assume, I know it for a fact. That word is used by watchtower slaves and those slaves alone.
JamesJah

There is also a famous artist that painted it that way, Jrsus on a stake, long before the Watchtower revealed this truth to the public, who had been soaked in by false man made teachings for hundreds of years.

If you check the original writings you will find the word used was tree, so how do you get cross out of that?

Then many today get cross when they hear the truth, why do many fanatics hate the truth?

2 Timothy 4:3-4
For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled, and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories.
bnabernard

pow wow wrote:
LOL! Want to know how I know who is messed up by the watchtower? By the word torture stake. LOL! I did not assume, I know it for a fact. That word is used by watchtower slaves and those slaves alone.


pow wow, best excuse yourself before you can't get out of the hole.

bernard  
JamesJah

2 Corinthians 4:3-6
If, now, the good news we declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing,

among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers,

that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through. For we are preaching, not ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your slaves for Jesus’ sake. For God is he who said: Let the light shine out of darkness, and he has shone on our hearts to illuminate [them] with the glorious knowledge of God by the face of Christ.
Powwow

James,
Why did you use the word torture stake? Please explain. I want to compare your explanation to the watchtowers reason for replacing the cross with the words torture stake. LOL!
JamesJah

More in keeping is why did the church change the word tree, club or stake, for cross?????????????

Cursed is the man hung upon a tree..

Find yourself a Diaglott.
Powwow

The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I see in his hands the print of the NAILS(plural), and put my finger into the print of the NAILS (plural), and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.  John 20:25

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the powwer of God. 1Corinthians 1:18

The torture stake was an invention of Judge Rutherford. He did preach the cross before that time to his watchtower slaves. In his book Rconciliation on pg 168 we read
"It is therefore appropriately named in scripture the covenant by sacrifice. The death of Jesus Christ upon the CROSS put an end to the law covenant."

In 1968 the remains of a crucified man were uncovered in Jerusalem, dating from the time of Christ. Of course this has put a final nail in the coffin for the watchtowers claim that crosses were not a method of execution in Roman occupied Jerusalem.
Farmer Geddon

Bern - I don't think Powsers is accusing you of being a JW... but his vitriol against them makes me think he used to be one!!
Ketty

bnabernard wrote:


One track mind in assuming every non trinitatian is somehow involved with the watchtower,


Quite right!

Not just the JWs - there are plenty of other non-trinitarian cults.  They're all equally as misguided, or even deliberately dangerous.  All the best lies have an outer wrapping of what appears to be truth - that's how the less discerning get sucked in.  GOD* knows.

* I AM: the triune Godhead - God in three persons: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

JamesJah

Like most Church educated Christians, Russel accepted what he had been taught the same as we all did, it was not till he researched the scriptures for himself did he see that where some teachers of religion, have been leading their followers to believe man made stories, which are not scriptural.

Russel only got himself into hot water over this when he tried to straiten these teaching out with the clergy, he suddenly discovered like you they where not interested in the truth, they where more interested in having the masses in slavery to them.

hence their hanging onto the torment in hell doctrine.
Powwow

Well I know James is a Russellite. That is a fact. Only the watchtower uses the Rutherford invented torture stake. And because I have a close friend who was raised a JW and because I'm friends with her mother and welcome in her home, does not mean I was once one Farmer. Not a chance. I believe the watchtower is a dangerous cult.
I don't know why James is ashamed of his connection to the watchtower.LOL!
JamesJah

The Watchtower is a registered legal organisation name required by law in America.

Me I am a Witness of Jehovah and follow the scriptures teaching us to do his will.

One of those teachings is not to fall down before a piece of wood and worship it, ask your friends, truth is hard to swallow for some, but God's word is truth regardless of how good the excuse we have for ignoring it.

John 17:15-19
I request you, not to take them out of the world, but to watch over them because of the wicked one. They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.

Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth.

Just as you sent me forth into the world, I also sent them forth into the world. And I am sanctifying myself in their behalf, that they also may be sanctified by means of truth.

John 19
And he put on the stauron

What do you find in your Greek dictionary for [[ stauron]]
Powwow

James,
Please have a look at the watchtower mag. pictures showing Christ on the "torture stake". Notice the ONE nail through the forearems. Now please open your New World translation to John 20:25
"Unless I see in HIS HANDS the imprint of the NAILS,.." Thats a plural my friend, not one lone nail.
When a stauros was used in a Roman execution, the criminal would carry the crossbeam to where the stake had been already planted. The condemned person was then nailed or tied to the cross beam and the beam was lifted and put on top of the stipes.

In an article titled, Anthropological Observations on the Skeletal Remains from Giv'vat ha-Mivtar written by N. Haas of the dept. Anatomy, Hebrew University
"The whole of our interpretation concerning the position of the body on the cross may be describes briefly as follows: The feet were joined almost parallel, both fixed by the same nail at the heels, with the legs adjacent; the knees were doubled, the right one over lapping the left; the trunk was contorted; the upper limbs WERE STRETCHED OUT, EACH STABBED BY A NAIL IN THE FOEARM."
bnabernard

So what was it, hands or forearm?  

bernard  
Powwow

Oh, I guess you didn't know that the ancients considered the forearm as part of the hand.
Lexilogio

pow wow wrote:
Oh, I guess you didn't know that the ancients considered the forearm as part of the hand.


The Greek word for "hand" also means "arm".
bnabernard

pow wow

 
bnabernard

Lexilogio wrote:
pow wow wrote:
Oh, I guess you didn't know that the ancients considered the forearm as part of the hand.


The Greek word for "hand" also means "arm".


You want to keep an eye on them Lex, you know what happened with the horse.
Powwow

bernard,
There we go. hand means arm.
Now bernard I really don't think Lexi needs instructions from the peanut gallery on how to do her job.
bnabernard

Oh this so reminds me of the life of brian.

bernard  
JamesJah

Powwow, you are side stepping the Greek word I gave you, putting faith in unrighteous man and his speculative arguments.

The only example of this type of execution that is still in existence today, is a piece of wood with a nail through the ankle, where the person was nailed with one leg each side of the stake.

For a correct understanding, we have to rely on having the correct translation from the Greek.

So how do you translate [[stauros]]????
Powwow

You are denying crucifixtion was the most common method of execution in the Roman colonies? I know the word stauros and it in no way excludes the Roman custom of using the cross beam. And yes as I pointed out, crucified remains have been found in Jerusalem decades ago. Perhaps you need to contact the Hebrew University?
JamesJah

The last time I was in Jerusalem, the hypocrisy there completely astounded me.

Even though I had been with the Church of England up till that time I was horrified by the amount of deception that the various religious organisations where indulging in.

What would Jesus have made of it?

Now that is the question.
Lexilogio

bnabernard wrote:
Lexilogio wrote:
pow wow wrote:
Oh, I guess you didn't know that the ancients considered the forearm as part of the hand.


The Greek word for "hand" also means "arm".


You want to keep an eye on them Lex, you know what happened with the horse.


 I ain't a vet...
Powwow

James,
I can agree to that. I don't think Christ is impressed at all. Myself, well I'm not into bells and smells nor bowing down infront of a cross. No cross is found on my church nor in it's auditorium. When I see a cross it reminds me that I'm a sinner and reminds me of what Christ did for me. I am not offended with a cross in a church, but I would be if people were worshipping it or bowing to it.
JamesJah

That is one of the main problems in the church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem powwow,
People come in bowing and kissing almost every thing.
JamesJah

What are you thoughts on the Egyption cross of life the ank used in the worship of Tamaz?
trentvoyager

Quote:
Bernard avoid Pow Wow he is another WUM character made up for the purpose of winding people up.


Irony alert.
Powwow

Sasser,
LOL! Bite me old woman! And you can put your teeth in first!
Powwow

James,
I think I know what your getting at. Yes the cross is pagan in origin. The Romans of course were pagans, so it makes sense that they used a cross. My Christ no longer hangs on a cross. He defeated the cross. The cross is no longer a symbol of the pagans. It is a symbol to me of Christs victory over shame, sin and death.
Ketty

[thinks]I wonder which one (of the, in reality, many reasons) for posting here, it is today?   [/thinks]
JamesJah

The point I was making powwow was that the cross was venerated in religious worship long before Christians decided to use it.
This sign [+++] was on the priests garb, and the Ankh held in the hand or hung on a sash.

It came to be imposed on Christians in the third century by the non Christian Constantine.
Jim

Slight quibble, JamesJah.
Although the ankh was depicted as being held by kings (especially in the New Kingdom) and gods in tomb paintings and carvings, no actual example of an ankh has ever been found in a seperate, or individual way suggesting it was ever, in fact, used in pharonic times. It was mwerely the heiroglyph for 'Life' as in Tut-ankh-amun, 'Living image of Amun', or Ankhkheperrure Neferneferuaten (Nefertiti) 'Life to the soul of Re, beautiful are the beauties of the Aten'.
True, when Hellenistic and Roman mysticism penetrated the Egyptian Ennead, Greco-Roman Isis worshippers did use an ankh in their proto-gnostic rituals, but this was never part of classic Egyptian religion.
However, the symbol,transformed by Coptic Christianity, may well have formed the basis of the Celtic Cross.
JamesJah

Which boils down to who had the cross in worship long befor Christians laid claim to it?

Powwow

James,
Who had an upright pole or stake as a symbol before the Watchtower laid claim to it? I know the Egyptians had their obelisks.
JamesJah

The Jews did powwow.

They were made to chop it down even though it was a symbol of the sacrifice of their messiah.

Deuteronomy 16:21
You must not plant for yourself any sort of tree as a sacred pole near the altar of Jehovah your God that you will make for yourself.

2 Kings 23:14
And he broke the sacred pillars to pieces and went on to cut down the sacred poles and to fill their places with human bones.

2 Chronicles 14:2-3
Asa proceeded to do what was good and right in the eyes of Jehovah his God. So he removed the foreign altars and the high places and broke up the sacred pillars and cut down the sacred poles.
JamesJah

John 3:14-15
And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so the Son of man must be lifted up, that everyone believing in him may have everlasting life.
Powwow

James,
I do not believe there to be any sacred or holy trees, poles, crosses nor vials of water.
Leonard James

pow wow wrote:
James,
I do not believe there to be any sacred or holy trees, poles, crosses nor vials of water.

It's nice to see even a small light glimmering in the gloom of superstition.
Ketty

pow wow wrote:
James,
I do not believe there to be any sacred or holy trees, poles, crosses nor vials of water.


I concur.  
Leonard James

Ketty wrote:
pow wow wrote:
James,
I do not believe there to be any sacred or holy trees, poles, crosses nor vials of water.


I concur.  

Me too! Although Glenfiddich comes close to sacred.  
Ketty

Oh blimey Lennie, not at this time in the morning!    
Leonard James

Ketty wrote:
Oh blimey Lennie, not at this time in the morning!    

At my age you have to make the best of what time you have left, and what better way to soothe the agéd body's aches?
bnabernard

ah Lennie and theres me with this image of you roller bladeing to the shops  

bernard  
Leonard James

bnabernard wrote:
ah Lennie and theres me with this image of you roller bladeing to the shops  

bernard  

It's the way I tell it, Bernie!  
JamesJah

You are in the same state of confusion Leonard James as many non believers.

If more people were to study their bible and get the sense of it a proper conclusion could be arrived at.

The ruler of this planet and the people on it have rejected the ruler of the universe, and have as little to do with that one as is possible.

What you have in this world, in this period of time, is a world corrupted by opposition to the creator, and a spirit of violence which permeates the whole planet.

[[Psalm 11:5
Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, And anyone loving violence His soul certainly hates.]]]


So what does the bible say about the creator, regardless of what the oppositions lies are on the matter?

One the rule of the planet opposes the creator.

He is not to be trusted because he is the farther of the great lie and is perpetually lying.

Genesis 3:4
At this the serpent said to the woman: You positively will not die. For God knows that in the very day of your eating from it your eyes are bound to be opened and you are bound to be like God, knowing good and bad.”

Revelation 12:7-11
War broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and
JamesJah

pow wow wrote:
James,
I do not believe there to be any sacred or holy trees, poles, crosses nor vials of water.


That does not stopppppp the many powwow.
Powwow

James,
Your watchtower invented "torture stake" does not stop the many either.
On another issue, it's a good thing those angels were not JWs. They would have refused to wage that war against Satan and his fallen angels.
JamesJah

You have been so indoctrinated against JWs powwow you do not check what you are saying to see if it is true or not.

All Christians are at war it is just a case of methods which are not really understood by anti Jw persons.

Ephesians 6:10-12
Finally, go on acquiring power in [the] Lord and in the mightiness of his strength. Put on the complete suit of armour from God that you may be able to stand firm against the machinations of the Devil;

because we have a wrestling, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places.
Leonard James

JamesJah wrote:
You have been so indoctrinated against JWs powwow you do not check what you are saying to see if it is true or not.

All Christians are at war it is just a case of methods which are not really understood by anti Jw persons.

Ephesians 6:10-12
Finally, go on acquiring power in [the] Lord and in the mightiness of his strength. Put on the complete suit of armour from God that you may be able to stand firm against the machinations of the Devil;

because we have a wrestling, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places.


Very interesting!  
JamesJah

It has gone very quiet here are the scripture too much for the modern man who like to do as he pleases the same as Adam did?

Has no one noticed yet what that type of thinking has done for this world so far?


2 Peter 3:3-4
For you know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires and saying:
Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.
Leonard James

Morning James,

Hopefully more people are realising the futility of rambling on endlessly about the meaning of an old book written for long dead people.
bnabernard

Quote:
Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.
_________________


Is that where this comes in Len  

bernard  
Leonard James

bnabernard wrote:
Quote:
Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.
_________________


Is that where this comes in Len  

bernard  

I dunno, Bernie, but one thing I have learnt since coming to these forums is that the endless claims and counterclaims about 'what the Bible means' are a total waste of time. No conclusion will ever be reached that suits everybody, so it is best left alone.

But it takes a stronger will than mine to do so!
bnabernard

I've got to book you right there, meself, with so many different theologys? all claiming to have the inside track, including the evo's, I prefer to take a step back and look at the whole set up, which then started me on unraveling why it was, working from a christian standpoint, that Noah and his family, all rightious people saved by God, promptly on steping foot into a new world full of rightious people, had to start warning of the forthcomming end of the world.
It does not make sense that God in His infinite wisdom would not put the saviour into the scene pre flood unless there was another agenda that had to be fulfilled, and those who are fixed with the idea that the saviour had to make an appearance have to come up with a good reason 'why' and that 'why' has to fit the whole picture, especialy when the next 'end of the world' is going to involve the survivors announcing the forthcomming end of the world in the same fashion as Noah. ??? innit

People can be excused from saying
Quote:

Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.
_________________
if they have not looked for accurate knowledge  to the why's and wherefores and rely on other men to make up their minds for them, doing that does not let the individual off the 'ook.
At the end of the day I'm at fault, or not as the case may be, not the other guy.
What's wrong with 'why'

bernard  
Leonard James

Hi Bernie,

There's no hook to be off, mate. It's all a fairy tale.
JamesJah

The bible does try to help us see how beneficial it would be for us if we lived in harmony with its standards of morals, many but prefer an immoral life style would obviously not wish too be reminded of what those standards should be, so hope to water down the benefits of taking it seriously.

2 Timothy 4:3-4
For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories.

One interesting scripture that has relevance for our day is>>

Daniel 2:44
In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite.

It is only the bible which tells us when why and how that will come about in our day. So it mite just be a good idea to have some knowledge of that book.
Leonard James

JamesJah wrote:
The bible does try to help us see how beneficial it would be for us if we lived in harmony with its standards of morals


Anybody with an iota of intelligence can see that we need a moral code to live in harmony ... we don't need the Bible to tell us.
JamesJah

The bible does give some open and honest examples of the outcome to those that follow its advice and also of some that do not.

Where as most of this information is concealed from the public either because of embarrassment, or because of dishonesty.

The mess the world is in today is a prime example of self motivation.

2 Timothy 3:1-7
But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here.
For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God,

having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away.

For from these arise those men who slyly work their way into households and lead as their captives weak women loaded down with sins, led by various desires,

always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth.
Honey 56

To JamesJah

You ask......


Quote:
When did Jesus say he was equal to the Father?>>>>


Jesus did not directly claim equality with His Father, why not?.....

Phill.2:6
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped.

_______________________________________

But the scriptures are full of references that absolutely leave us in no doubt who Jesus really is....
________________________________________
[i] John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [/i]
________________________________________
John 5:18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
________________________________________
John 10:33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
________________________________________
John 14:28 "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
________________________________________
John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
________________________________________

2 Corinthians 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory [i]of Christ, who is the image of God
________________________________________
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
________________________________________
John 5:18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. [/i]________________________________________
John 10:33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
________________________________________

John 14:28 "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
________________________________________

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
________________________________________
[i]2 Corinthians 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God
_______________________________________

2 Corinthians 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich
________________________________________

Jesus did not have to claim anything, the religious leaders of the day knew exactly what Jesus was alluding to...........


16He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read. 17The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18“The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,
19to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”
20Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, 21and he began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing

_____________________________________
Isaish 61
1The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me,
because the LORD has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners,a
2to proclaim the year of the LORD’s favor

______________________________________
Psalm 146
Blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob,
whose hope is in the LORD his God,
6the Maker of heaven and earth,
the sea, and everything in them—
the LORD, who remains faithful forever.
7He upholds the cause of the oppressed
and gives food to the hungry.
The LORD sets prisoners free,
8the LORD gives sight to the blind,
the LORD lifts up those who are bowed down,
the LORD loves the righteous.
9The LORD watches over the alien
and sustains the fatherless and the widow,
but he frustrates the ways of the wicked.
10The LORD reigns forever,
your God, O Zion, for all generations.
Praise the LORD



Praise YHWH !

Or as you would say praise Jehiovah!
Does Jesus, promise that these prohesies are fullfuilled in their/our sight?

JHWH is the one who will set prisoners free, give sight to the blind etc.

How is it possible for Jesus to claim all of the things that are attributed to JHWH?

The religious leaders of His day understood completely what Jesus was claiming, that is why He was tried, convicted and sentenced to death by them, for the 'crime' of blasphemy!

So we have to ask ourselves
Was Jesus telling the truth?

Were the religious leaders wrong when they assumed Jesus was making Himself equal to God?

If they were wrong, why didn't Jesus tell them so plainly?
Ketty

Jim

I'd add that you should compare Ps 23 to John 10: 10-18, in passing, note that, in John, another of Jesus "ego eimi" statements goes on to say that He is the Good shepherd, when David clearly says in Ps 23 that "The LORD is my shepherd...".
Since the Jews had reffered to God as the "Shepherd of Israel", the comparison cannot have been lost on Jesus listeners, the Pharisees.
Jesus is clearly taking on the role of the I AM, who is the Good Shephwerd - the Shepherd of Israel.
JamesJah

What was Jesus rank in the heavens before he came to earth?
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:
What was Jesus rank in the heavens before he came to earth?


I think I know where you are going with this James, He was definitely not an angel, they are created beings, we can see from this scripture......

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

That Jesus has always been, He is the Alpha and Omaga and everything that was created, was created by HIm. Or so the bible says anyway.
Jim

What was Jesus' rank?
Non-sequiter.
He is God; He doesn't need rank.
Farmer Geddon

Any way - back on topic:

Quote:
What about the "male and female created He them"

Son, Father - Ok that's the male part sorted. Is the HS the female bit??



"And God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them".

Sorry, but it states that God created man in His own image, in fact it tells us so twice in the same sentence.

I see see nothing about creating a son, or a holy spirit for that matter?
Honey 56

Farmer Geddon wrote:
Any way - back on topic:

Quote:
What about the "male and female created He them"

Son, Father - Ok that's the male part sorted. Is the HS the female bit??



"And God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them".

Sorry, but it states that God created man in His own image, in fact it tells us so twice in the same sentence.

I see see nothing about creating a son, or a holy spirit for that matter?


Well you are quite correct, The Son and The Holy Spirit are not created beings, they were with God Almighty in the beginning, and through them everything that has been created, was created.

God/Elohim (plural) created both Man and Woman in the image of God,
Farmer Geddon

But to me the Pleural aspect "Elohim"  means that there is more than one God involved in the creation, in fact the Hebrew word "Elohim" literally translates as "mighty ones" which might mean several.

But it gets more complicated than that because Elohim can also be singular.. for example.

Psalm 82:1 " Elohim (singular) standing in assembly of El (the Mighty) in the congregation of Elohim (plural), he (Elohim; singular) shall judge amongst the Gods."

(This is my 'twisting' of an interlinear translation I have of the Hebrew Bible.

Which literally translates this verse as: "Song of Asaph. Elohim, one being stationed in the congregation of El, in within of Elohim, who he is Judging).


What can I say?
Jim

Elohim" refers in this case, not to more than one God
( Hear, O Israel, the LORD is God, the LORD is one..."
but  rather to the plurality of the nature of God...Christians would, naturally, ascribe this as a theophany of the tri-unity of God.
We use "He", of course, not to identify gender, but identify personhood.
Honey 56

Farmer Geddon wrote:
But to me the Pleural aspect "Elohim"  means that there is more than one God involved in the creation, in fact the Hebrew word "Elohim" literally translates as "mighty ones" which might mean several.

But it gets more complicated than that because Elohim can also be singular.. for example.

Psalm 82:1 " Elohim (singular) standing in assembly of El (the Mighty) in the congregation of Elohim (plural), he (Elohim; singular) shall judge amongst the Gods."

(This is my 'twisting' of an interlinear translation I have of the Hebrew Bible.

Which literally translates this verse as: "Song of Asaph. Elohim, one being stationed in the congregation of El, in within of Elohim, who he is Judging).


What can I say?


Well. I can see how it may be confusing, but to go back to Genesis and the Elohim, there are several clues here, God (Elohim) says "let us make man in our image"

Genesis also speaks of the spirit of God at the creation.
John: 1 and 1 John: 1  both speak of Jesus being there in the beginning with God, it even states that Jesus created everything, that was created.

It's what some peole refer to as the 'trinity' or a better phrase the'Godhead'

BTW F.G  I really appreciate you looking into the bible and joining in the discussion it's really great, honestly.

I too have a Hebrew and Greek Interlinear, it is one of my most prized belongings  firstly because it gives a deeper understanding of the meaning of the scriptures and also because Mr. Honey bought it for me!
He also bought an *Interlinear* which gives the real meaning of the Greek and Hebrew words.

I still have so much to learn and it helps to talk things through with other posters.
So thank you for that.
Honey

*sorry that should read concordance*  (long day)
Farmer Geddon

No idea what you is chatting about here James..

Are you trying to inject "Yahweh" into the discussion?

Unfortunately - your quote is in the singular.. So I'm afraid only one god.. I see no trinity in what you claim..

Det 6:4 literally translates as: "hear you Israel! The LORD [Yahweh - singular] Elohim of us [plural] is the only LORD [Yahweh- singular].

Where do you find a trinity in that??
Jim

No, not trying to inject YHWH into the discussion. Just using the quote as an illustration.
Gen 1 uses "Elohim" which, as Honey points out, is qualified by the use of "us". The royal "we" was not a term used in ancient circles, as far as I am aware, until Hellenistic times, long after Gen I was written - even if you accept a later date for the formation of the book.
Honey 56

This is a good translation


Hear, O Israel: The LORD  (YHWH)  our God  (Elohom/plural), the LORD(YHWH) is one (united).

Honey
Jim

Incidentally, one Hebrew rendition of Gen 1:1 would read in English
"In beginning, God created..." where the "the" is missed out. This puts a different, more dynamic slant on the verse.
Honey 56

Jim wrote:
Incidentally, one Hebrew rendition of Gen 1:1 would read in English
"In beginning, God created..." where the "the" is missed out. This puts a different, more dynamic slant on the verse.


It does Jim, absolutely.

What occured to me in the small wee hours this morning is the use of The word - Logos, referring to Jesus at John 1 and the use of and God said let there be......... in Genesis.

Elohim spoke and everyuthing that is, came into being! at his word and through His Logos.

Amazing.......
JamesJah

How can the Almighty God be made a little lower than the angels?
Jim

He can't.
He is the maker of all.
And Jesus, God Incarnate, was never made.
He was, is and will be.

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