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cyberman

"You must be saved"

Some posters have expressed impatience and/or anger at fact that some Christians tend to use a form of words along the lines "You must be saved or else your going to hell", or some such thing.

What exactly is the problem with that?

The only thing "saved" can mean in such a context is "not going to hell". So they are saying you are either "not going to hell" or "going to hell".

Similarly, you either either "a hobbit" or "not a hobbit". You are either "72 years old" or "not 72 years old".

Can anyone explain the problem, please?
Farmer Geddon

.. or... there is no such thing as hell... is that the problem?
gone

As there is no evidence of any sort that some sort of life continues after death, or that a deity exists for that matter, to tell someone they must be 'saved' or go to hell is daft!
Honey 56

I don't know about you Cyberman, but as a Christian myself I have never ever said that to anyone, reason being, it is God's job to judge and not ours.

Jesus taught on it, but he reserved the worse judgement for corrupt religious leaders who were making it impossible for ordinary people to find their way to God.

It seems to be the none Christians of this world who have this obsession, not those who try to follow Christ Jesus, perhaps we are too busy working out our own salvation? what say you?

Having said that, Jesus did say that in order to see the Kingdom of God, we must be born again, and being as Jesus is the author and perfecter of our faith, I think He knows best!

Honey  
cyberman

Farmer Geddon wrote:
.. or... there is no such thing as hell... is that the problem?


see "hobbits" - I got this covered. reread the OP.

"There are no such things as hobbits" does not negate the statement "you are either 'a hobbit' or 'not a hobbit'".

Same goes for hell. You are either "going to hell" or "not going to hell" regardless of whether hell or hobbits exist.
cyberman

Willow wrote:
As there is no evidence of any sort that some sort of life continues after death, or that a deity exists for that matter, to tell someone they must be 'saved' or go to hell is daft!


There is no evidence that hobbits exist.

It is nevertheless true to say you are either "a hobbit" or "not a hobbit".
gone

Honey 56 wrote:
I don't know about you Cyberman, but as a Christian myself I have never ever said that to anyone, reason being, it is God's job to judge and not ours.

Jesus taught on it, but he reserved the worse judgement for corrupt religious leaders who were making it impossible for ordinary people to find their way to God.

It seems to be the none Christians of this world who have this obsession, not those who try to follow Christ Jesus, perhaps we are too busy working out our own salvation? what say you?

Having said that, Jesus did say that in order to see the Kingdom of God, we must be born again, and being as Jesus is the author and perfecter of our faith, I think He knows best!

Honey  


Jesus is reputed to have said a lot of things, some sensible, some silly. He had no more idea about the existence of an afterlife than any other human, imo!
cyberman

Willow wrote:

Jesus is reputed to have said a lot of things, some sensible, some silly. He had no more idea about the existence of an afterlife than any other human, imo!


Which sayings attributed to Jesus do you think are silly?
Farmer Geddon

cyberman wrote:
Farmer Geddon wrote:
.. or... there is no such thing as hell... is that the problem?


see "hobbits" - I got this covered. reread the OP.

"There are no such things as hobbits" does not negate the statement "you are either 'a hobbit' or 'not a hobbit'".

Same goes for hell. You are either "going to hell" or "not going to hell" regardless of whether hell or hobbits exist.


I read it, stupid analogy to be honest.

I prefer to swat away such claims with reality!!
JamesJah

Are there still people who do not know what the bible means by hell?

Come to that are their any bourn again people who understand what mass hypnotist are able to do?

Would it be a good idea to first discover what hell is because according to the KJV Jesus went there?

If you have been bourn from heaven you would certainly know it without some stage hypnotist whacking you on the head and puting the voodoo on you.
cyberman

Farmer Geddon wrote:
cyberman wrote:
Farmer Geddon wrote:
.. or... there is no such thing as hell... is that the problem?


see "hobbits" - I got this covered. reread the OP.

"There are no such things as hobbits" does not negate the statement "you are either 'a hobbit' or 'not a hobbit'".

Same goes for hell. You are either "going to hell" or "not going to hell" regardless of whether hell or hobbits exist.


I read it, stupid analogy to be honest.

I prefer to swat away such claims with reality!!


You are either "a hobbit" or " not a hobbit".
Can you swat that claim away with reality? Go on...
gone

cyberman wrote:
Willow wrote:

Jesus is reputed to have said a lot of things, some sensible, some silly. He had no more idea about the existence of an afterlife than any other human, imo!


Which sayings attributed to Jesus do you think are silly?


For a start the ones that tried to encourage people to leave behind their responsibilities and follow him, an itinerant preacher. Cursing the fig tree because it didn't produce fruit out of season, giving the impression he was some sort of divine figure etc!
cyberman

Willow wrote:
cyberman wrote:
Willow wrote:

Jesus is reputed to have said a lot of things, some sensible, some silly. He had no more idea about the existence of an afterlife than any other human, imo!


Which sayings attributed to Jesus do you think are silly?


For a start the ones that tried to encourage people to leave behind their responsibilities and follow him, an itinerant preacher. Cursing the fig tree because it didn't produce fruit out of season, giving the impression he was some sort of divine figure etc!


Fair enough. I can see why you might think some of those are silly.
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:
Are there still people who do not know what the bible means by hell?

Come to that are their any bourn again people who understand what mass hypnotist are able to do?

Would it be a good idea to first discover what hell is because according to the KJV Jesus went there?

If you have been bourn from heaven you would certainly know it without some stage hypnotist whacking you on the head and puting the voodoo on you.


I think you know James that the word which is commonly translated and understood by many people as 'hell' is really the following word....

hell. - γέενναν - geennan -1067 - Gehenna, a valley W. and S. of Jer., also a symbolic name for the final place of punishment of the ungodly.

Do you really want to get into mass hypnosis or brainwashing, we can go there if you wish to James.

Honey
cyberman

Oh no! I did not want to start another 'JamesJah' thread.
Honey 56

cyberman wrote:
Oh no! I did not want to start another 'JamesJah' thread.


Well I will respect that Cyberman,
Let us hope that we can all stick to the subject of the thread without taking cheap shots at other 'religions'
I promise you that I will.

Honey
gone

Honey, pardon me for asking, but do you have a particular interest in the JW sect? I have noticed over the years that you make a point of engaging JWs in conversation.
Powwow

I can't speak for Honey but my interest/concern about the watchtower is that this cult targets and preys on weak Christians.
Powwow

"(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)"    2Corinthians 6:2
JamesJah

Honey 56 wrote:
JamesJah wrote:
Are there still people who do not know what the bible means by hell?

Come to that are their any bourn again people who understand what mass hypnotist are able to do?

Would it be a good idea to first discover what hell is because according to the KJV Jesus went there?

If you have been bourn from heaven you would certainly know it without some stage hypnotist whacking you on the head and puting the voodoo on you.


I think you know James that the word which is commonly translated and understood by many people as 'hell' is really the following word....

hell. - γέενναν - geennan -1067 - Gehenna, a valley W. and S. of Jer., also a symbolic name for the final place of punishment of the ungodly.

Do you really want to get into mass hypnosis or brainwashing, we can go there if you wish to James.

Honey




Yep the rubbish tip outside of Jerusalem that the refuse of this world will be thrown into and the lake of fire is what?

It was a place of false worship and the judgement that came upon it was to be turned into a rubbish tip, which sounds about right for idolatrous worship.

Who would know if JW's had not done the spade work revealing to the world the distorted teachings of the clergy?
Honey 56

Willow wrote:
Honey, pardon me for asking, but do you have a particular interest in the JW sect? I have noticed over the years that you make a point of engaging JWs in conversation.


Yes Willow, I do have a special interest in JW's I have a few members of the Watchtower society in my family, but more importantly I knew two little girls many years ago who had a similar experience to you Willow, only much much worse (perhaps you could take a look at the silentlambs webite). The one in particular was in and out of mental hospitals all of her adult life and sadly she recently passed away, still a relatively young woman. I tried to reach out to her and her family for years, and I was particularly fond of her mother, in fact we became very good friends, when I became a Christian they stopped calling on me, I think probably due to the elders at the Kingdom Hall.

I have seen first hand and have read many accounts of ex JWs who have suffered badly at the hands of their governing body, so yes, it is personal for me.

I am also very aware that the reason they have suffered so badly is due to wrong teaching and misunderstanding of scriptures and the fact that the individual JW's loyalty must be to the organisation above all and everyone else, to the degree that it is put before their own families, children, spouses and friends and wrongdoing is often covered up and 'dealt with' in house and the perpetrators go relatively unpunished.

Jesus loves them and so, so do I, even those who are taught to hate me as a Christian and someone they consider to be an apostate.

Honey.

Sorry Cyberman !  
Farmer Geddon

Honey 56 wrote:
.............

I think you know James that the word which is commonly translated and understood by many people as 'hell' is really the following word....

hell. - γέενναν - geennan -1067 - Gehenna, a valley W. and S. of Jer., also a symbolic name for the final place of punishment of the ungodly.

Do you really want to get into mass hypnosis or brainwashing, we can go there if you wish to James.

Honey


To be fair here HM - The etymology of our version of "Hell" has many roots. Most of them based old Germanic languages; such as Old Frisian, Old Saxon, Middle Dutch, Old High German, Danish, Norwegian, Swedish and Old Norse to describe a form of "punishment".
Subsequently, the word was used to transfer a pagan concept to Christian theology and its vocabulary.

If we want to attach all this to the new boy on the block, then we have to associate it with every other ancient culture that influenced this Greek notion of "Hell".
Powwow

Oh I'm sure the Germanic languages were consulted before scripture was written down in Hebrew and Greek.lol
Farmer Geddon

No, you ignoramus..

The definition of "Hell" in the western world is more based on the North European...

You know what - my present thought is; what's the fucking point?

Education is not one of your strong points!
Powwow

No it's not. Scripture is clear about what Hell is all about and the old Germanic notions had no play in that. Duh!
Leonard James

Hell is the imagined destination for non-believers.

Bull's shit, of course!
Farmer Geddon

No.. you ignorant twat.

Fuck me, trying to educate you is like rubbing a puppy's nose in their own shit - they lick it off, love it and as an encore piss on the sofa to celebrate!

The etymology of the definition, of the word, we know as "Hell" in English is based on Northern European derivations of the word "Hel"

If you can find the actual word "Hell/Hel" in the Greek or Hebrew -  or any of the other more ancient cultures for that matter - then feel free to point me in that direction.

I'm guessing it's the word "etymology" that you are struggling with...

You pig-ignorant twat!!

I'm guessing even "Wikipedia" is too intelligent for you:

[url=Hell]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell[/url]
Lexilogio

This is not the Bear Pit!

Please do not insult other posters. Insult the post, not the person behind it.
Farmer Geddon

Excuse me Lexi - but if you care to point out to me any relevant point, in any of Moodies inane last few posts, that can be addressed without attacking him personally, please show me.

Let me ask you - Does the word we know as "Hell" go any further back than 7 C.E.?

Does the concept of a "Hell" predate Christianity or not?
Powwow

Now Christ speaks of the damnation of Hell in Matthew 23. How could that be so if hell is but the grave. Perhaps He spent a few years in northern Europe?lol
JamesJah

JamesJah wrote:
Honey 56 wrote:
JamesJah wrote:
Are there still people who do not know what the bible means by hell?

Come to that are their any bourn again people who understand what mass hypnotist are able to do?

Would it be a good idea to first discover what hell is because according to the KJV Jesus went there?

If you have been bourn from heaven you would certainly know it without some stage hypnotist whacking you on the head and puting the voodoo on you.


I think you know James that the word which is commonly translated and understood by many people as 'hell' is really the following word....

hell. - γέενναν - geennan -1067 - Gehenna, a valley W. and S. of Jer., also a symbolic name for the final place of punishment of the ungodly.

Do you really want to get into mass hypnosis or brainwashing, we can go there if you wish to James.

Honey




Yep the rubbish tip outside of Jerusalem that the refuse of this world will be thrown into and the lake of fire is what?

It was a place of false worship and the judgement that came upon it was to be turned into a rubbish tip, which sounds about right for idolatrous worship.

Who would know if JW's had not done the spade work revealing to the world the distorted teachings of the clergy?



How does this fit in with the torment in hell syndrome?

Acts 24:15
I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.

Psalm 146:3, 4
Do not put your trust in nobles, Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs.  His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish.
Farmer Geddon

You are so both so way behind in current thinking - it is actually embarrassing..

Hell has evolved people.. it just seemed to have pass you all by!!
Powwow

No it hasn't. Christ told us exactly what Hell is.
Farmer Geddon


Link


Ooo, it's the "pow wow" ..

FFS

How real is it in your mind?

To be honest, it's the same in mine!!

Impasse?
Farmer Geddon

pow wow wrote:
No it hasn't. Christ told us exactly what Hell is.


The problem being..

Your version of hell is totally alien to what you think the hell of Jesus actually was..

Again we have to observe you are too thick/stupid/ignorant to understand why..

But Lexi doesn't like me to pointing out we have sharper sticks over here, that are more intelligent than yours....

But apparently I can still call you a Dick Wad!!
JamesJah

Priests do get some strange ideas sometimes, more so those that like to frighten the life out of people.

Did Dante really go to town on this one??????????

Honey 56

Hope this helps........


HELL
hel (see SHEOL; HADES; GEHENNA):

1. The Word in the King James Version:

The English word, from a Teutonic root meaning "to hide" or "cover," had originally the significance of the world of the dead generally, and in this sense is used by Chaucer, Spenser, etc., and in the Creed ("He descended into hell"); compare the English Revised Version Preface. Now the word has come to mean almost exclusively the place of punishment of the lost or finally impenitent; the place of torment of the wicked. In the King James Version of the Scriptures, it is the rendering adopted in many places in the Old Testament for the Hebrew word she'ol (in 31 out of 65 occurrences of that word it is so translated), and in all places, save one (1 Corinthians 15:55) in the New Testament, for the Greek word Hades (this word occurs 11 times; in 10 of these it is translated "hell"; 1 Corinthians 15:55 reads "grave," with "hell" in the margin). In these cases the word has its older general meaning, though in Luke 16:23 (parable of Rich Man and Lazarus) it is specially connected with a place of "torment," in contrast with the "Abraham's bosom" to which Lazarus is taken (16:22). 2. The Word in the Revised Version:

In the above cases the Revised Version (British and American) has introduced changes, replacing "hell" by "Sheol" in the passages in the Old Testament (the English Revised Version retains "hell" in Isaiah 14:9, 15; the American Standard Revised Version makes no exception), and by "Hades" in the passages in the New Testament (see under these words).

3. Gehenna:

Besides the above uses, and more in accordance with the modern meaning, the word "hell" is used in the New Testament in the King James Version as the equivalent of Gehenna (12 t; Matthew 5:22, 29; Matthew 10:28, etc.). the Revised Version (British and American) in these cases puts "Gehenna" in the margin. Originally the Valley of Hinnom, near Jerusalem, Gehenna became among the Jews the synonym for the place of torment in the future life (the "Gehenna of fire," Matthew 5:22, etc.; see GEHENNA).

4. Tartarus:

In yet one other passage in the New Testament (2 Peter 2:4), "to cast down to hell" is used (the King James Version and the Revised Version (British and American)) to represent the Greek tartaroo, ("to send into Tartarus"). Here it stands for the place of punishment of the fallen angels: "spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them down to hell, and committed them to pits (or chains) of darkness" (compare Jude 1:6; but also Matthew 25:41). Similar ideas are found in certain of the Jewish apocalyptic books (Book of Enoch, Book of Jubilees, Apocrypha Baruch, with apparent reference to Genesis 6:1-4; compare ESCHATOLOGY OF THE OLD TESTAMENT).

From...
The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia
JamesJah

Typical Honey
Could not bring your self to say we would not know that had it not been for all the zealous preaching done by the early bible students who brought this to the attention of Chrisamdon, and had to suffer all the insults for their diligent?
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:
Typical Honey
Could not bring your self to say we would not know that had it not been for all the zealous preaching done by the early bible students who brought this to the attention of Chrisamdon, and had to suffer all the insults for their diligent?


Sorry, James,
I didn't realise WT teaching had moved on, the last I heard was they were still contradicting Jesus' teaching on a literal place such as Gehenna (commonly translated as 'Hell') such as Mark 9.......


47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where

“‘their worm does not die,

and the fire is not quenched.’e




But just what does the Bible say about torment
after death? If you have read earlier chapters of this
book, you know that many common beliefs about
the dead are false. You know, according to the
Bible, that no soul or spirit separates from the body
at death and continues conscious existence. Hence,
there is no Scriptural foundation for the doctrine of
eternal torment after death, for nothing survives that
can be subjected to literal torment
.
The Truth Shall Set You Free, p. 90


Honey
JamesJah

Honey 56 wrote:
JamesJah wrote:
Typical Honey
Could not bring your self to say we would not know that had it not been for all the zealous preaching done by the early bible students who brought this to the attention of Chrisamdon, and had to suffer all the insults for their diligent?


Sorry, James,
I didn't realise WT teaching had moved on, the last I heard was they were still contradicting Jesus' teaching on a literal place such as Gehenna (commonly translated as 'Hell') such as Mark 9.......


47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where

“‘their worm does not die,

and the fire is not quenched.’e




But just what does the Bible say about torment
after death? If you have read earlier chapters of this
book, you know that many common beliefs about
the dead are false. You know, according to the
Bible, that no soul or spirit separates from the body
at death and continues conscious existence. Hence,
there is no Scriptural foundation for the doctrine of
eternal torment after death, for nothing survives that
can be subjected to literal torment
.
The Truth Shall Set You Free, p. 90


Honey


One of the first teachings to be adjusted by the bible students was to put the fire out of hell, and explain Gehenna.

Matthew 5:30
For it is more beneficial to you for one of your members to be lost than for your whole body to land in Gehenna.
Honey 56

Hi James,

So the WT Society is still contradicting Jesus' teaching here........

47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where

“‘their worm does not die,

and the fire is not quenched
.’e

Why would they think that they know better than Jesus?

Honey
JamesJah

Because Honey Jesus did not say hell that word did not exist in his vocabulary, he said Gehenna.
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:
Because Honey Jesus did not say hell that word did not exist in his vocabulary, he said Gehenna.


So the Watchtower is now teaching, as Jesus did, that there is a literal place called Gehenna and this is a place of eternal punishment?

their worm does not die,

and the fire is not quenched.’e


Honey
JamesJah

So you have never been to Jerusalem then Honey, There is a rubbish tip in Amman just the same as that one used to be even though it is burning people walk about on it collecting what they can to use then that is to days world the one that Jesus is going to supplant with Jehovah’s Kingdom
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:
So you have never been to Jerusalem then Honey, There is a rubbish tip in Amman just the same as that one used to be even though it is burning people walk about on it collecting what they can to use then that is to days world the one that Jesus is going to supplant with Jehovah’s Kingdom


So can we take this as a yes then, the WT society are still contradicting Jesus' own teaching on a literal place of eternal punishment, for which He used a literal place 'Gehenna' as an illustration for teaching purposes?

A straight forward answer would be greatly appreciated James.

Honey
JamesJah

The judgement that came upon Gehenna was to be turned into a rubbish tip. Why?
Because in that valley false worship had been taking place there, so any illustration would have been to show what is to happen to false worship, and those who opposes Jehovah’s Kingdom.
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:
The judgement that came upon Gehenna was to be turned into a rubbish tip. Why?
Because in that valley false worship had been taking place there, so any illustration would have been to show what is to happen to false worship, and those who opposes Jehovah’s Kingdom.


How do you equate that WTsociety teaching with Jesus' teaching here....

47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where

“‘their worm does not die,

and the fire is not quenched.’e


You seriously believe that WTS over Jesus?  


Jesus said clearly that it would be better to enter the Kingdom maimed than to be thrown into Gehenna, why do you suppose He said that James, if their was no place of punishment, why would it be better to be maimed?
Jesus also stresses the eternal quality of this place, where the fires will not be quenched, and the eternal qualities of the Kingdom for the righteous ones, what is eternal about annhialation?

Honey
JamesJah

If you use the word Jesus used Honey you stand a chance of understanding.

Try it one more time what was the word Jesus used instead of hell?

What is the condition of that place?
JamesJah

The Almighty God of the bible is not a sadistic God as some humans are people who wish to sin reap the reward of sin, those that choose their own path get the consequences of their actions which is death.

What is death? And what does the bible say it is?

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.
Honey 56

Quote:
[quote="JamesJah:78218"]

What is death? And what does the bible say it is?

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.[/quote
]

Despite what the WT Society teach you James, the bible teaches that Man has a spirit and this is the part that goes on and can return to God after this earthly life.

and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Ecclesiastes 7

Compare these scriptures james…

Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

Acts 7:59
While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

Psalm 146:4
When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.

That doesn't sound like annhialation does it?  

You are correct when you say that God  is not sadidistic, he is just and fair, that is why He came to pay the price for our sins Himself, so that we could be reconciled back to Him and recieve our salvation and call Him our Father.

24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. 25For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
1 Peter 2

5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from allb sin.

8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned[/i[i]], we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

1 John 1.


But make no mistake James God is just and He will punish our sins if we are not covered by His precious blood and forgiven.

9See, the day of the Lord is coming

—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—

to make the land desolate

and destroy the sinners within it.

10The stars of heaven and their constellations

will not show their light.

The rising sun will be darkened

and the moon will not give its light.

11I will punish the world for its evil,

the wicked for their sins.

I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty

and will humble the pride of the ruthless
.
Isaiah 13.

The WT Society founder was very afraid of this, but, if you are living for God and with God this should hold no fear, remember God is just and loving, He. Himself provided for our forgiveness and salvation.

Honey
JamesJah

What is pneuma  and what did Satan say to Eve about death?
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:
What is pneuma  and what did Satan say to Eve about death?


Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.
Luke 23:46



pneuma: wind, spirit
Original Word: πνεῦμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: pneuma
Phonetic Spelling: (pnyoo'-mah)
Short Definition: wind, breath, spirit
Definition: wind, breath, spirit.
4151 pneúma – properly, spirit (Spirit), wind, or breath. The most frequent meaning (translation) of 4151 (pneúma) in the NT is "spirit" ("Spirit"). Only the context however determines which sense(s) is meant.
[Any of the above renderings (spirit-Spirit, wind, breath) of 4151 (pneúma) is always theoretically possible (spirit, Spirit, wind, breath). But when the attributive adjective ("holy") is used, it always refers to the Holy Spirit. "Spirit" ("spirit") is by far the most common translation (application) of 4151 (pneúma).

The Hebrew counterpart (rûach) has the same range of meaning as 4151 (pneúma), i.e. it likewise can refer to spirit/Spirit, wind, or breath.]


As Jesus pointed out satan is the father of lies, he was a liar from the beginning, sadly some people are still falling for them!
JamesJah

Honey 56 wrote:
JamesJah wrote:
What is pneuma  and what did Satan say to Eve about death?


Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.
Luke 23:46



pneuma: wind, spirit
Original Word: πνεῦμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: pneuma
Phonetic Spelling: (pnyoo'-mah)
Short Definition: wind, breath, spirit
Definition: wind, breath, spirit.
4151 pneúma – properly, spirit (Spirit), wind, or breath. The most frequent meaning (translation) of 4151 (pneúma) in the NT is "spirit" ("Spirit"). Only the context however determines which sense(s) is meant.
[Any of the above renderings (spirit-Spirit, wind, breath) of 4151 (pneúma) is always theoretically possible (spirit, Spirit, wind, breath). But when the attributive adjective ("holy") is used, it always refers to the Holy Spirit. "Spirit" ("spirit") is by far the most common translation (application) of 4151 (pneúma).

The Hebrew counterpart (rûach) has the same range of meaning as 4151 (pneúma), i.e. it likewise can refer to spirit/Spirit, wind, or breath.]


As Jesus pointed out satan is the father of lies, he was a liar from the beginning, sadly some people are still falling for them!


Correct nine out of ten.

Satan is the father of lies but what did he say about death?

The correct answer will get you full marks.
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:


Correct nine out of ten.

Satan is the father of lies but what did he say about death?

The correct answer will get you full marks.


satan lied and told Eve she would not die, and she didn't die straight away physically, but she died that day spiritually, by disobeying God that day she separated herself, her husband Adam and the rest of humanity from an eternity with God, that is why the Lord God straight away put his redemption plan into action, God told them that He would put emnity between the woman's offspring and satans offspring, that He would crush his head and he would strike His heel (speaking of Jesus' suffering on the cross,[striking His heel] but satans absolute defeat by Jesus [crushing his head])
Or as the bible says, just as sin entered the world by one imperfect Man, Adam, so sin was defeated by a perfect man, Jesus, the balance was redressed and humanity can again (if they choose to) have an eternity with The Lord God, both now and in the future.

In the end of Revelation we see everything (the whole world and humanity) restored to the way it was, a paradise, heaven on earth with us back in proper face to face felowship, with our Eternal Father just as He designed and created it to be.

Honey
gone

If Adam and Eve had  actually existed, instead of being the mythical figures they undoubtedly are, good for them for sticking up two fingers to the deity and its silly games!
LeClerc

Hi Willow

Willow wrote:
If Adam and Eve had  actually existed, instead of being the mythical figures they undoubtedly are, good for them for sticking up two fingers to the deity and its silly games!


If children come to visit you and you tell them not to stick things in the electircal sockets on the walls of your house or they will get a nasty shock and possibly die, would you say good for them if they stuck two fingers up at you and ignored you and died ?

LeClerc
JamesJah

Willow wrote:
If Adam and Eve had  actually existed, instead of being the mythical figures they undoubtedly are, good for them for sticking up two fingers to the deity and its silly games!


How do you get to know which mushrooms to eat without some one dyeing?
gone

LeClerc wrote:
Hi Willow

Willow wrote:
If Adam and Eve had  actually existed, instead of being the mythical figures they undoubtedly are, good for them for sticking up two fingers to the deity and its silly games!


If children come to visit you and you tell them not to stick things in the electircal sockets on the walls of your house or they will get a nasty shock and possibly die, would you say good for them if they stuck two fingers up at you and ignored you and died ?

LeClerc


The deity of the Bible is evil through and through if it is a real entity. If it was responsible for creating human nature the so and so would have known damn well if you tell someone not to do something they will do it, especially if it meant gaining more knowledge. A&E weren't children!
Jim

"A&E weren't children."
Er....
I thought you said they didn't exist?
JamesJah

Willow wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi Willow

Willow wrote:
If Adam and Eve had  actually existed, instead of being the mythical figures they undoubtedly are, good for them for sticking up two fingers to the deity and its silly games!


If children come to visit you and you tell them not to stick things in the electircal sockets on the walls of your house or they will get a nasty shock and possibly die, would you say good for them if they stuck two fingers up at you and ignored you and died ?

LeClerc


The deity of the Bible is evil through and through if it is a real entity. If it was responsible for creating human nature the so and so would have known damn well if you tell someone not to do something they will do it, especially if it meant gaining more knowledge. A&E weren't children!


Same old anty God philosophy.

Some one come into room and tells you not to drink from the glass of water in the middle of the table it holds arsenic and will kill you are you grateful or disbelieving.

Now he is telling every one where the elixir of life is are you believing or still as foolish as your four fathers?
Honey 56

Poison and false teaching are always more effective when administered in small doses, that way the victims are unaware of their dying state until it is too late!

That is why we should be careful of the source of our food, that it is properly prepared and given at the correct time.

The Holy Spirit does not lie.

Honey
JamesJah

Honey 56 wrote:
Poison and false teaching are always more effective when administered in small doses, that way the victims are unaware of their dying state until it is too late!

That is why we should be careful of the source of our food, that it is properly prepared and given at the correct time.

The Holy Spirit does not lie.

Honey


But any one who teaches we do not die does follow Satan's teachings.
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:
Honey 56 wrote:
Poison and false teaching are always more effective when administered in small doses, that way the victims are unaware of their dying state until it is too late!

That is why we should be careful of the source of our food, that it is properly prepared and given at the correct time.

The Holy Spirit does not lie.

Honey


But any one who teaches we do not die does follow Satan's teachings.


Are you absolutely sure about this James?

Would your comment include the Lord Jesus Christ, who Himself said...


49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. [b]51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world
.”
John 6



25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

John 11

Honey
JamesJah

Now we have the elixir of life which it is now possible to take but that is now what is possible if we avail ourselves of it.

John 14:6
Jesus said to him: I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:
Now we have the elixir of life which it is now possible to take but that is now what is possible if we avail ourselves of it.

John 14:6
Jesus said to him: I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.


So when Jesus taught this.......


25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
John 11



Was He guilty of this...

Quote:
any one who teaches we do not die does follow Satan's teachings.


or not? (in your opinion)

Honey
Jim

Careful, Honey;
You've just asked James a straight question...
You know what that means: you're going to have to ask him at least seven times before he gives you half an answer!
Honey 56

Jim wrote:
Careful, Honey;
You've just asked James a straight question...
You know what that means: you're going to have to ask him at least seven times before he gives you half an answer!


Jim !!!!  

I would really love to ask james what his understanding of this scripture is too, what exactly Jesus was getting at? but we will have to see  

Honey
PS you make me LOL sometimes.
JamesJah

Who benefit from the resurrection?

Jehovah has made a large opening for humans by means of his son, but all some can do is ridicule and make light of it.

The wages sin pays is death correct?

All have sinned a fall short of the gory of God, correct?

So all are dying, correct?

So what is life in heaven or on earth dependant on?

Is it a laughing matter?

When is this to take place?>>>>

Revelation 6:9-11
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work that they used to have. And they cried with a loud voice, saying: Until when, Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth? a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been.
Honey 56

To James.

So when Jesus taught this.......


25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
John 11


Was He guilty of this...

Quote:
any one who teaches we do not die does follow Satan's teachings.


or not? (in your opinion)

Honey
Jim

Three times you've asked him, Honey.
You've at least another four to go....
JamesJah

What did Jehovah God have to say on the matter?

Genesis 2:15-17
Jehovah God proceeded to take the man and settle him in the garden of Eden to cultivate it and to take care of it. And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.


What did the Devil have to say on the subject?

Genesis 3:4, 5
At this the serpent said to the woman: you positively will not die. For God knows that in the very day of your eating from it your eyes are bound to be opened and you are bound to be like God, KNOWING good and bad.

It is religions lack of understanding of the matter and peoples opposition to the truth, that makes what Jesus did for mankind difficult to teach. If instead of trying to be clever and teach your own ideas you tried to teach the bibles viewpoint you might get some where near the truth of the matter?
Jim

That doesn't answer Honey's question
(quelle surprise)

Honey:
Still at least four to go.
I'm counting.
JamesJah

Is honey going to call the God a liar?
Jim

I thought, as Honey correctly pointed out, that a certain false Christian group advocates lying in order to fool folk into following it?
JamesJah

Like my mum always said, you know what thought did don't you? He only thought he did.
Jim

It also, apparently, failed to answer Honey's question.
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:
Like my mum always said, you know what thought did don't you? He only thought he did.


"As a soldier of Christ he is in the theocratic warfare and he must exercise added caution when dealing with God's foes. Thus the Scriptures show that for the purpose of protecting the interest of God's cause, it is proper to hide the truth from God's enemies."

Watchtower June 1st. 1960. pg.352.

From your own publication James.

Now will you be honest and admit who the WT Society class as God's enemies? because I could post that too!

Honey
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:
Is honey going to call the God a liar?


I would appreciate it if you would not put words into my mouth James.

I think we have already established that satan is the father of lies and has been since the beginning, he lied to Eve as he still lies to people who are willing to listen to him, to this very day.

So when Jesus taught this.......


25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
John 11


Was He guilty of this...


Quote:
any one who teaches we do not die does follow Satan's teachings.



or not? (in your opinion)

Do you understand what Jesus is clearly saying here James?

How can a person live, even though he dies?

Honey
Honey 56

Hint!

Matthew 10....

28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell
JamesJah

What is the lake of fire in Revelation?
JamesJah

Where do the dead come from in the resurrection?
Honey 56

Quote:
JamesJah wrote:
Is honey going to call the God a liar?


I would appreciate it if you would not put words into my mouth James.

I think we have already established that satan is the father of lies and has been since the beginning, he lied to Eve as he still lies to people who are willing to listen to him, to this very day.

So when Jesus taught this.......


25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
John 11


Was He guilty of this...


Quote:
any one who teaches we do not die does follow Satan's teachings.  



or not? (in your opinion)

Do you understand what Jesus is clearly saying here James?

How can a person live, even though he dies?

Honey


Quote:
Hint!

Matthew 10....

28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell


You first James, When you take the time to answer my question, then I will return the courtesy to you
Honey
JamesJah

The answer Honey was in the questions I asked.
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:
The answer Honey was in the questions I asked.


There is little point in answering a question with another one, I think you are afraid of the answer to this question James.........

So when Jesus taught this.......


25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
John 11


Was He guilty of this...



Quote:
any one who teaches we do not die does follow Satan's teachings.
 

Do you understand what Jesus is clearly saying here James?

How can a person live, even though he dies?

Honey
JamesJah

Honey 56 wrote:
JamesJah wrote:
The answer Honey was in the questions I asked.


There is little point in answering a question with another one, I think you are afraid of the answer to this question James.........

So when Jesus taught this.......


25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
John 11


Was He guilty of this...



Quote:
any one who teaches we do not die does follow Satan's teachings.
 

Do you understand what Jesus is clearly saying here James?

How can a person live, even though he dies?

Honey


The reason you do not know is because of your hatred of truth.

Any JW can answer this simple question,

Revelation 20:13
The sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Hades gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds.

Where were the dead?
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:


Quote:
Do you understand what Jesus is clearly saying here James?

How can a person live, even though he dies?

Honey


The reason you do not know is because of your hatred of truth.

Any JW can answer this simple question,


James you made this comment'''

Quote:
any one who teaches we do not die does follow Satan's teachings.


I asked you, if in your opinion  this applied equally to Jesus, who taught this...

25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
John 11


I love the truth James, I understand what Jesus was saying, I am simply asking you this....

Quote:
any one who teaches we do not die does follow Satan's teachings.


I asked you, if in your opinion  this applied equally to Jesus, who taught this...

25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
John 11


How can, as Jesus said, a Man live even though he dies?

Are you afraid to answer this, does it turn everything the WT Society have taught you on it's head? is that why you are consistletly avoiding answering this question James.


Honey
JamesJah

The scriptures you quote are plain enough for a child to understand I do not see your problem perhaps you would like to explain when they apply?
Jim

Honey:
Seven.........



.........and counting!
Honey 56

Jim wrote:
Honey:
Seven.........



.........and counting!
jim,



Yes Jim,
But  I really do feel for James, because he has rather painted himself into a corner, having said this……


any one who teaches we do not die does follow Satan's teachings



and then seeing that Jesus teaches this very thing here

25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
John 11


He cannot answer the these two questions.

In your opinion, can your teaching that anyone who says we do not die, is 'following satan’s teaching',  be  applied equally to Jesus Christ, who actually taught this very thing?

And

How can, as Jesus said, a Man live even though he dies?

Because you can see his dilemma really. He cannot say truthfully that Jesus would  follow satan’s  teaching, because that is obviously untrue. But  if he were to admit this is untrue, then that would prove that what James has been taught by the WT Society is totally wrong, and this is one of the most important teachings in the Christian faith, it rather opens a can of worms for him doesn't it?

The problem is Jim, you can deceive yourself, or perhaps someone else, but you cannot deceive the Holy Spirit, God knows the heart.

Honey
Jim

Amen;
however; and I say this without a trace of either irony or flippancy (for once), given the appalling track record, there for all to see who dredge through back issues of "The Watchtower" and "Awake", all available online,
the amount of times in just over a century, in which the WTBS has changed, revised, ditched, reviewed and rewritten doctrine, fully expecting it's adherants to unquestioningly accept the latest "group think" from Big Brother in Brooklyn, is truly disturbing.
Fascinating, but disturbing.

So, if he waits a few years, misses another few failed predictions, I'm sure the WTBS will come up with a scripture twist that meets the answer he cannot bring himself to give.
JamesJah

Digressing from one subject to another is quite common here, with the anti JW brigade.

So what are we to be saved from, when do we actually get saved, who is it that can save us, and by what means is it he uses?
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:
Digressing from one subject to another is quite common here, with the anti JW brigade.

So what are we to be saved from, when do we actually get saved, who is it that can save us, and by what means is it he uses?


So James,

How can, as Jesus said, a Man live even though he dies?

This question is completely relevent to this thread and needs an answer especially in light of this comment from you James....


Quote:

any one who teaches we do not die does follow Satan's teachings  


( I am not anti JW. I am anti false prophets, who are leading good people astray from the Lord Jesus)

Honey
JamesJah

Do you acknowledge that a resurrection is going to happen to who and why?
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:
Do you acknowledge that a resurrection is going to happen to who and why?


Do you believe that Jesus is guilty of this...

Quote:
any one who teaches we do not die does follow Satan's teachings  


When He teaches this?


25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
John 11


Please answer this question, then perhaps we can move on?

Honey
JamesJah

Even though he dies.

Who do you believe go to heaven?

And when do they go?
Jim

Twelve....
And counting!

I admire your patience, Honey!
(I gave up at seven....)
JamesJah

Do you still fight for your country?

Are Christians nationalistic?
Honey 56

Jim wrote:
Twelve....
And counting!

I admire your patience, Honey!
(I gave up at seven....)


You always know when JW's are desperately in a corner, they start with this nonesense....

Quote:
Do you still fight for your country?

Are Christians nationalistic?


I don't really expect an answer because as I said Jim, James has painted himself into a corner and doesn't have the integrity to admit that he cannot answer the question because it would open a huge can of worms for him, either that or it is possible that he is awaiting an answer from the WT Society and is playing for time?

Either way, it is impossible to communicate with him at the moment.
Ah well!

honey
Jim

Yes.
OK, James, I'll bite.
But in order to help you answer Honey's question - and I just know you REALLY REALLY want to - I'll answer it on another thread - absolutely NOT on this one!
So it's up to you to open it, since you asked the question.

Now that this little diversion is over, do you think you can actually have a stab at answering Honey....for once?
JamesJah

What is this city  and where is it?

Revelation 21:24-27
The nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. Its gates will not be closed at all by day, for night will not exist there.

They will bring the glory and the honour of the nations into it.

But anything not sacred and anyone that carries on a disgusting thing and a lie

will in no way enter into it; only those written in the Lamb’s scroll of life

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