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Judders Lady...

'IF' someone had challenged you to live like an atheist...

If someone had challenged you to live like an atheist, then where would you begin?

I found it initially amusing the challenge of living for three weeks as an atheist. But where and how would I begin?
Over to the atheists to advise me so I can make a decision.

Love Lynne.xx  
Lexilogio

The obvious answer would be to stay in bed on a Sunday morning, instead of going to Church.
IvyOwl

Lexilogio wrote:
The obvious answer would be to stay in bed on a Sunday morning, instead of going to Church.



Two points'

As god is omniprescent a Christian could stay in bed on a Sunday morning and go to church in the evening. Or not at all and worship it (as you see God as genderless you won't mind my using the neutral pronoun) in the privacy of their own home/heart.

Atheists wouldn't necessarily stay in bed on a Sunday morning and could even go to church. There are some pretty good church choirs out there! Not to mention that sometimes free tea and biscuit are on offer and a little sip of wine maybe.

Sorry to be pedantic

IO
----------

Surely the only difference is in our minds, the way we perceive reality, so it might be argued that a Christian could not live as an atheist without becoming one.
Lexilogio

IvyOwl wrote:
Lexilogio wrote:
The obvious answer would be to stay in bed on a Sunday morning, instead of going to Church.



Two points'

As god is omniprescent a Christian could stay in bed on a Sunday morning and go to church in the evening. Or not at all and worship it (as you see God as genderless you won't mind my using the neutral pronoun) in the privacy of their own home/heart.

Atheists wouldn't necessarily stay in bed on a Sunday morning and could even go to church. There are some pretty good church choirs out there! Not to mention that sometimes free tea and biscuit are on offer and a little sip of wine maybe.

Sorry to be pedantic

IO


 Ok....
Judders Lady...

Thanks for the replies, Lexi and IO,

The Church point... made me think about the teaching - that our bodies are now the temple so the Church would be staying in bed, so to speak.
 

As for the tea, biscuits and wine, it would a home from home for the temple...

Now Heretic,

You said something that caused me to say Hey!  
 

Quote:
Surely the only difference is in our minds, the way we perceive reality, so it might be argued that a Christian could not live as an atheist without becoming one. think.


If we said an atheist could not live as a Christian without becoming one.
How would that differ? How can you really believe in something you do not believe in?

I argued that belief is not the way we live but essentially, it is the cause and reason for the way we live. Does being an atheist make you live any differently to a believer? Or can an atheist really live as a believer without the belief?

So I maintain that being a believer must be more about the reason we live as we do... namely Christ and the Spirit, and not  just the actions.
So Heretic, how can I become an atheist? How can I live as an atheist, with belief in God?

Love Lynne.xx

Pukon_the_Treen

Lynne,

Quote:
how can I become an atheist? How can I live as an atheist, with belief in God?


You can't, obviously.  If I were to try and live 'like' a Christian (not actually be a Christian, but try to be like one in my lifestyle) then I might go to church, sing hymns, read the bible, join some kind of religious action groups preaching on the streets or working in the community, try to talk to God in my head … stuff like that.  Christianity is an ideology, a way of life and a religion so there are certain practices that one can do whether one believes in God or not.

Atheism is not an ideology, or a religion and there is no associated lifestyle.  There is nothing you can do to attempt to live 'like' an atheist if you believe in God, because the only defining characteristic about being an atheist is that you don't believe in God.
Judders Lady...

Pukon_the_Treen wrote:
Lynne,

Quote:
how can I become an atheist? How can I live as an atheist, with belief in God?


You can't, obviously.  If I were to try and live 'like' a Christian (not actually be a Christian, but try to be like one in my lifestyle) then I might go to church, sing hymns, read the bible, join some kind of religious action groups preaching on the streets or working in the community, try to talk to God in my head … stuff like that.  Christianity is an ideology, a way of life and a religion so there are certain practices that one can do whether one believes in God or not.

Atheism is not an ideology, or a religion and there is no associated lifestyle.  There is nothing you can do to attempt to live 'like' an atheist if you believe in God, because the only defining characteristic about being an atheist is that you don't believe in God.


Hi Puke,

But how would that compare and register true when Christ uses the Spirit and Truth to define a true believer. Given the " I never knew you" to those who believed and even performed miracles.
As I said, Christianity cannot be just an ideology or way of life. If it must be by Gods Spirit, surely?

How would you change that? Could a believer honestly say they could?
Would we be lying if we told someone we could and would?
I sometimes wonder who atheists see the belief?

Love Lynne.xx
Pukon_the_Treen

Lynne,

Quote:
Christianity cannot be just an ideology or way of life. If it must be by Gods Spirit, surely?


Yes, that is why an atheist can only ever be 'like' a Christian by copying some aspects of the lifestyle or common practices.  We can't actually be Christians, because we don't believe in God.

Quote:
How would you change that? Could a believer honestly say they could?


You mean how could an atheist become a Christian?  I have no idea, that's not really my field.  Some kind of breakdown or mental crisis perhaps?  Many of those who 'find' God in this way often seem to do so at the apex of some kind of terrible traumatic experience.

Quote:
Would we be lying if we told someone we could and would?


I don't know. Maybe.  Some Christians seem to desperately wish to evangelise even though they know that without the spiritual experiences they have had, the atheist cannot possibly understand or accept their arguments.

I sometimes think they only evangelise because they are looking forward to the imagined post mortem opportunity to say “I told you so, but you didn't listen! Look at those sinners Jesus; I told them about you but they didn't listen; they have no excuse; burn them! Burn them all!”.  They don't want to make converts, they just want to give themselves the opportunity to crow with self-righteous vindicated glee in the afterlife.
Quote:

I sometimes wonder who atheists see the belief?


How do you mean?
Leonard James

As I have observed many times, it is quite impossible to believe something if your ability to reason finds it unbelievable. So in the absence of any change in the evidence we observe, an atheist can no more become a Christian than vice versa.

There is no difference in our life styles, apart from the praying and rituals. It is a fact that some atheists treat their fellow man much better than some Christians do, and the reverse is also true, of course.

How we live and what we believe is genetically controlled, and there is nothing we can do to alter that. Some atheists, like myself, were raised in a Christian culture and family and believed in God until our reason negated the belief ... so clearly, although nurture held sway for a while, our nature became too strong for it.

Our individual response to the environment is mostly governed by our genetic inclinations, although we can deliberately override them in some respects ... but we can't make ourselves believe something which we find unbelievable.
----------

Hi Lynn,

Quote:

So Heretic, how can I become an atheist? How can I live as an atheist, with belief in God?


That was my point - you can't.

If we had a detective monitoring the lives of a Christian and an atheist, he would probably find very little difference. The Christian MIGHT go to church on Sunday, but that would probably be about it. Both are capable of performing acts of kindness, altruism, selfishness and gross stupidity.

The difference is in the mind. Our beliefs give us a kind of model of reality we can use to get through life. A Christians model might be different from an atheists, but both are human, both know it is wrong to cause suffering to others.

Both will fail from time to time.
Dave B

I agree with Puke that atheism has no distinct life style.

It is possible to be an atheist and, in everyday interaction with people and the world, act exactly as a person who was following all the "non-God specific" "rules" in the Bible - The Golden Rule (possibly pre-dating the writing of Bible anyway) being the most commonly quoted.

One could also be an utter sociopath and not fit to be allowed out without a keeper.

But I have met self-professed Christians who do not live up to the teachings of the Bible - so it works both ways.

You are as you act, not what you call yourself in the final analysis.
Judders Lady...

Pukon_the_Treen wrote:
Lynne,

Quote:
Christianity cannot be just an ideology or way of life. If it must be by Gods Spirit, surely?


Yes, that is why an atheist can only ever be 'like' a Christian by copying some aspects of the lifestyle or common practices.  We can't actually be Christians, because we don't believe in God.


I am not sure you are grasping what is being said. Christianity is not just about belief in God. True Christianity is about knowing God, otherwise it isn't Christianity. So even with belief in God as I did point out in my post, some believers are not known to God.
Which is why true believers may make errors and even be lead away to make mistakes. But they can never pretend not be a Christian.
It would be dishonest. So how can a believer live as an atheist?
Quote:

Quote:
How would you change that? Could a believer honestly say they could?


You mean how could an atheist become a Christian?  I have no idea, that's not really my field.  Some kind of breakdown or mental crisis perhaps?  Many of those who 'find' God in this way often seem to do so at the apex of some kind of terrible traumatic experience.


I was referring to a believer above?
Quote:


Quote:
Would we be lying if we told someone we could and would?


I don't know. Maybe.  Some Christians seem to desperately wish to evangelise even though they know that without the spiritual experiences they have had, the atheist cannot possibly understand or accept their arguments.

I sometimes think they only evangelise because they are looking forward to the imagined post mortem opportunity to say “I told you so, but you didn't listen! Look at those sinners Jesus; I told them about you but they didn't listen; they have no excuse; burn them! Burn them all!”.  They don't want to make converts, they just want to give themselves the opportunity to crow with self-righteous vindicated glee in the afterlife.


Talking about believers?
Quote:

Quote:

I sometimes wonder who atheists see the belief?


How do you mean?
[/quote]

I think we need to clear the first two issues and then we will both see what I meant. Can a believer live as an atheist?
You appeared to get cross wires.

Love Lynne.xx
Judders Lady...

Leonard James wrote:
As I have observed many times, it is quite impossible to believe something if your ability to reason finds it unbelievable. So in the absence of any change in the evidence we observe, an atheist can no more become a Christian than vice versa.

There is no difference in our life styles, apart from the praying and rituals. It is a fact that some atheists treat their fellow man much better than some Christians do, and the reverse is also true, of course.

How we live and what we believe is genetically controlled, and there is nothing we can do to alter that. Some atheists, like myself, were raised in a Christian culture and family and believed in God until our reason negated the belief ... so clearly, although nurture held sway for a while, our nature became too strong for it.

Our individual response to the environment is mostly governed by our genetic inclinations, although we can deliberately override them in some respects ... but we can't make ourselves believe something which we find unbelievable.



Morning Leonard

So explain the Spirit and Truth part of Christianity.
Explain why Christ tells some believers. " Go away, I never knew you."
I know all the usual jargon and reasons man gives for why we do as we do. But they are purely theory at this stage. Hence the reason we all re-act differently to different things. I just believe God is really in charge so we can trust him.

Love Lynne.xx
Judders Lady...

Dave B wrote:
I agree with Puke that atheism has no distinct life style.

It is possible to be an atheist and, in everyday interaction with people and the world, act exactly as a person who was following all the "non-God specific" "rules" in the Bible - The Golden Rule (possibly pre-dating the writing of Bible anyway) being the most commonly quoted.

One could also be an utter sociopath and not fit to be allowed out without a keeper.

But I have met self-professed Christians who do not live up to the teachings of the Bible - so it works both ways.

You are as you act, not what you call yourself in the final analysis.


That is not correct Dave B,

Look at how Christ saw this outlook.

He says to those who performed miracles and believed in him.
"Go away! I never knew you."
So explain how you believe the above about believers?

Love Lynne.xx<smiley>

Friends arrived sitting in the garden so I have to go now.
Seems we are going to toast in the sun for a while.
One of them complaining because the shop had not put there beer in the fridge early enough. Had to put them in the freezer for 10 minutes.


gone

True Christianity is about knowing God, otherwise it isn't Christianity.

'Knowing God' What that actually means is believing in you own version, just as our Lynne does, even if it is incomprehensible to most of the rest us. But then of course she and her tame God are buddies and have a special relationship.
Judders Lady...

Rose-Mary wrote:
True Christianity is about knowing God, otherwise it isn't Christianity.

'Knowing God' What that actually means is believing in you own version, just as our Lynne does, even if it is incomprehensible to most of the rest us. But then of course she and her tame God are buddies and have a special relationship.


But I do and have always had a special relationship with God.
CAN you PROVE differently?
Seems the laughing just stopped...
The silence is deafening...

Love Lynne.xx
Leonard James

Hello Lynne,
~xx~ Jesus' Lady... ~xx~ wrote:
So explain the Spirit and Truth part of Christianity.

They are just beliefs, and whether you accept them or not depends entirely on your genetic makeup.
Quote:
Explain why Christ tells some believers. " Go away, I never knew you."

I think he was referring to those Jews that professed to be good but weren't. However, he was just a human with beliefs, the same as we are.
Quote:
I know all the usual jargon and reasons man gives for why we do as we do. But they are purely theory at this stage. Hence the reason we all re-act differently to different things.

I don't think they are purely theory ... there is quite strong evidence from the study of identical twins that our genes make us what we are.
Quote:
I just believe God is really in charge so we can trust him.

I know that's what you believe ... and it's because you are genetically inclined to do so.
Ketty

Rose-Mary wrote:
True Christianity is about knowing God, otherwise it isn't Christianity.


WRONG!

Lots of people 'know' a god.  True Christianity is about knowing the living Christ (who, of course, is also God).

Jews 'know' God . . . doesn't make 'em Christians.
Judders Lady...

Ketty wrote:
Rose-Mary wrote:
True Christianity is about knowing God, otherwise it isn't Christianity.


WRONG!

Lots of people 'know' a god.  True Christianity is about knowing the living Christ (who, of course, is also God).

Jews 'know' God . . . doesn't make 'em Christians.


Again you show your ignorance of truth.

You see that is what shows the difference between those in truth and those like yourself who have what you show clearly to be manmade knowledge.
Let me explain so there can be no mistake.

You like the others know of gods.

But the truth - , is that, there is only one God that can be known. Had YOU known the only God, then you too would have understood what is meant by true faith - is knowing God.

The fact many people know of a god is not the same as knowing god.
Had you been in truth you would clearly have not made that mistaken comment of saying
Quote:
Lots of people 'know' a god.


God is not a liar when he says he is the only God. So how can lots of people know a god???? As there is only one God. Then lots of people may know of a god be they cannot know a god.
You see true Christians obey Christ which shows they FIRST and foremost "Love God with all their heart, mind, body and soul" not Jesus Christ. Because until you love God that way YOU CANNOT LOVE CHRIST.
Comments which show your ignorance about truth?
Quote:


Jews 'know' God . . . doesn't make 'em Christians.


Jews like Christ show that eternal life is as Jesus said:

John 17:3 (King James Version)

3.And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


You cannot see the ploy of the RCC to keep the Jews from believing in their Messiah because they like Christ knew that eternal life is KNOWING THE ONLY TRUE GOD AND JESUS CHRIST WHOM, THE ONLY TRUE GOD SENT.  Then it shows you are not in truth.
What you wrote did not confirm what Christ said.


3.And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


As Christ and I agree and teach differently to what you wrote.
You are once again shown to be completely against the teachings of CHRIST and the Apostles.

1 John 4:2-3. (King James Version)

2.Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:


3.And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

You don't even know why you speak against the truth Christ taught.
You come out with your one liners and yet the truth is there in black and white. The truth which tells you that the Apostles taught Jesus Christ came in the flesh, NOT GOD and anyone who teaches differently from that - is what???????God only spoke through Jesus Christ, putting his words in his mouth and those words Christ said, were Spirit.

Christ saying eternal life is knowing the one true what?_ _ _
And_ _  _ _ _   _ _ _ _ _ _who was sent by who?_ _ _

Wake up and ask God, Oh that is right, you only know of a God you don't actually know him, do you?


Had you known anything about either covenant, then you would know that circumcision of the heart, the living by the Holy Spirit was received by those Jews who obeyed the Laws.
Deuteronomy 30:6 (King James Version)

6.And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.


How do you think David had the Holy Spirit?
How do you think Simeon spoke by the power of the Holy Spirit?

Luke 2:25.

25. And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

Peter, himself saying:
Acts 10:38.
38.How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.


I believe God and Jesus Christ. I am not scared of man or his false teachings. I believe God and I know that your teachings do not come from Christ or from the Apostles.
If all you have is that belief and that you are pedaling that belief.
Then I know you do not know God at all. Because God has shown as Christ, that you must only worship God and it is in loving God with all our heart that we love Christ.


8.Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9.And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

10.Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.


Why didn't Christ reveal himself as God to Satan?
Why not say, " Hey, I am God, are you having a laugh. bow down to you and you will give me everything I already own?"
Or did you forget that God still owned everything?


6.And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Like God would need to tell his own angels to catch him.
   
Could God be any less than God in human form?
Would he still not be all-powerful (omnipotent)?


The truth is there.  But you want to follow the delusion.
I have told you and now you have no excuse when judgement day comes
The words of God will show you did not follow what he taught.

Love Lynne. xx
Judders Lady...

Hi Leonard,

Leonard James wrote:
Hello Lynne,
~xx~ Jesus' Lady... ~xx~ wrote:
So explain the Spirit and Truth part of Christianity.

They are just beliefs, and whether you accept them or not depends entirely on your genetic makeup.


No that is untrue. That is just what you want it to be.

Quote:

Quote:
Explain why Christ tells some believers. " Go away, I never knew you."

I think he was referring to those Jews that professed to be good but weren't. However, he was just a human with beliefs, the same as we are.


A guess... but Christ showing it is only those who obey his commandments who love him and therefore are his true followers.



Quote:

Quote:
I know all the usual jargon and reasons man gives for why we do as we do. But they are purely theory at this stage. Hence the reason we all re-act differently to different things.

I don't think they are purely theory ... there is quite strong evidence from the study of identical twins that our genes make us what we are.


The identical twins in my family do not support that theory.


Quote:

Quote:
I just believe God is really in charge so we can trust him.

I know that's what you believe ... and it's because you are genetically inclined to do so.


Genetics has nothing to do with belief.

Love Lynne.xx
Leonard James

I'm sorry Lynne, but genetics has everything to do with belief. In fact your genes decide everything about you. Even the way you respond to your environment depends on your genetic makeup ... that is the foundation on which natural selection drives evolution forward.
Judders Lady...

Leonard James wrote:
I'm sorry Lynne, but genetics has everything to do with belief. In fact your genes decide everything about you. Even the way you respond to your environment depends on your genetic makeup ... that is the foundation on which natural selection drives evolution forward.



Good Morning Leonard,

Absolutely no proof that genes decide anything in our daily lives.
We believe genes affect our physical appearance but the Spiritual has nothing to do with the physical. Since the soul is the only thing connected to the Physical and keeps it separate from the Spiritual.

I sometimes wonder where you get your ideas from that genes tell us what to think and choose. Because the real issue about our decisions, has nothing to do with genes.

Love Lynne.xx
Lexilogio

Genes have a considerable effect on our daily lives. Genes are not just about physical appearance.
Genes are what lead to our hormone levels - which then lead to the testosterone / oestrogen levels, and thereby influence our risk taking and aggression levels.
Genes are what lead to our initial brain capacity, and therefore our abilities to understand certain things - nurture of course has a huge role, but you can lay more on a table which seats 20 than one which only seats 4.
Genes have a huge effect on physical health - which affects our ability to function.

Genes are not the only factor in the development of a human, but they are a major contributing factor.
Dave B

Lexi said:
Quote:
Genes are not the only factor in the development of a human, but they are a major contributing factor.
Could we say that genes set out the base line, the foundation, on which all else is built?

But there are some things in nature that even the best possible nurture cannot set right, and not all of them are "somatic". Structures on a faulty foundation do not always last long.
Pukon_the_Treen

Lynne,

Quote:
Absolutely no proof that genes decide anything in our daily lives.


There you go again, insisting upon proof.  There is evidence which supports the idea that genes influence behaviour; that's all you are going to get – evidence in supporting of a theory. If you keep asking for proof despite the fact that you have been told that science doesn't work that way, then it will just look as though you are being disingenuous.
Leonard James

Hi Lynne,
~xx~ Jesus' Lady... ~xx~ wrote:
Absolutely no proof that genes decide anything in our daily lives.

I'm afraid that indirectly they do. The way you behave, your brain, your whole personality are the results of genetic influence from conception onwards, plus the modifications imposed by environmental influences. And even the way you react to those environmental influences depends to a great extent on your genes.
Quote:
We believe genes affect our physical appearance but the Spiritual has nothing to do with the physical. Since the soul is the only thing connected to the Physical and keeps it separate from the Spiritual.

Our spiritual side is nothing more than an emergent function of our brains, which were formed according to our genes.
Quote:
I sometimes wonder where you get your ideas from that genes tell us what to think and choose. Because the real issue about our decisions, has nothing to do with genes.

Wonder no longer, Lynne. Our brains are constructed precisely according to the genetic pattern we inherited from our parents, and our outlook on life depends on that individual construction, combined with our environmental experiences from conception onwards.
Leonard James

Lexilogio wrote:
Genes are not the only factor in the development of a human, but they are a major contributing factor.

Absolutely, Lexi! And as I have already pointed out, the amount and manner in which environmental phenomena affect us is also dependent on our genetic makeup.
Judders Lady...

Lexilogio wrote:
Genes have a considerable effect on our daily lives. Genes are not just about physical appearance.
Genes are what lead to our hormone levels - which then lead to the testosterone / oestrogen levels, and thereby influence our risk taking and aggression levels.


Why do you deliberately ignore the truth?
Tell me what affect has the genes over the affect of the Holy Spirit in a believers life?

You want to tell God that our genes are more powerful than him or his Holy Spirit when it comes to our Spiritual lives?
You, I and God, all know I was referring to our spiritual life.
So seeing as you purposely said these things.
God is telling you to answer him now. How does genes affect his ability and that of his Holy Ghost working in the spiritual life of his own children?

Quote:

Genes are what lead to our initial brain capacity, and therefore our abilities to understand certain things - nurture of course has a huge role, but you can lay more on a table which seats 20 than one which only seats 4.
Genes have a huge effect on physical health - which affects our ability to function.

Again God asks you:

What affect did they have and play when my Son Jesus Christ healed the Lepers?  When the woman who touched the tassle on the hem of his gown stopped bleeding. When Lazarus was raised from the dead what affect did they have then?  What affect functionality wise, did they have when all these things took place?

Quote:

Genes are not the only factor in the development of a human, but they are a major contributing factor.


God again says:

Where are they a factor to me or my power in a persons life?

You would do well to be silent till you know what you are talking about spiritually.
God says to you:
You test the patience of man must you also test the patience of God, too?
Be quiet Lexi because you just keep people from coming to the truth.


If you are not for the truth then you are against it.
Judders Lady...

Pukon_the_Treen wrote:
Lynne,

Quote:
Absolutely no proof that genes decide anything in our daily lives.


There you go again, insisting upon proof.  There is evidence which supports the idea that genes influence behaviour; that's all you are going to get – evidence in supporting of a theory. If you keep asking for proof despite the fact that you have been told that science doesn't work that way, then it will just look as though you are being disingenuous.


As you do not believe in God, let me get this right...

You believe that Christ walked on water because of his genes?

You believed he raised the dead because of his human genes?

You believe he spoke to the storm and it stopped because of his genes?

You believe spiritual life is down to genes and not the Holy Spirit?

Do you get the picture so far Puke?

Now prove that Christ never did these things. Or prove that he did them due to his genes?

For those like Lexi....

I should remind them that Peter taught:

Acts 10:38 (King James Version)

38.How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.


Absolutely NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS GENES.

Even the denim type...


Love Lynne.xx
Dave B

Quote:
You believe that Christ walked on water because of his genes?

You believed he raised the dead because of his human genes?

You believe he spoke to the storm and it stopped because of his genes?
Dunno about Puke, but the easy answer is, "I believe none of these things ever happened."

Lynne, can you not get it into your head* that you because you believe this stuff there are those that do not. And neither camp has any proof either way.

But, let us say, from what we do know of the world such things are not possible. If believing them gives you peace and comfort, fair enough, but do not expect all others to go along with you.

*Since you are genetically programmed to believe such stuff I suppose there is little chance of this. Perhaps there will be a cure for it one day.
Dave B

Leonard James wrote:
Lexilogio wrote:
Genes are not the only factor in the development of a human, but they are a major contributing factor.

Absolutely, Lexi! And as I have already pointed out, the amount and manner in which environmental phenomena affect us is also dependent on our genetic makeup.
The other phrase that has come to mind, back from when a sociology instructor would interject it if we credited genes with t"too much" influence in (non-pathological) behavioural traits and used "genetically programmed", " Or genetically predisposed . . ."

It may be that that "predisposal" never matches with environmental influences or is easily overcome by the right kind of influence. Although, in times of stress etc., it may be that the veneer that nurture puts on the trait is easily broken through - for good or ill.
Judders Lady...

Dave B wrote:
Quote:
You believe that Christ walked on water because of his genes?

You believed he raised the dead because of his human genes?

You believe he spoke to the storm and it stopped because of his genes?
Dunno about Puke, but the easy answer is, "I believe none of these things ever happened."(but you cannot prove it the same as the genes)

Lynne, can you not get it into your head* that you because you believe this stuff there are those that do not. And neither camp has any proof either way.


My head is fine... the problem is your head.
Witnesses said he did do them. That people today, who believe in him  are still doing some of these things. What have you done to check them out. So please don't use the "can you get it into your head" It is elementary that non-believers do not believe these things so don't insult your own intelligence or mine by thinking you appear a tad sincere in this
post.

Our camp as you put it, has proof in that they are still doing most of the things he did. Walking on water is not required because we rarely have to cross any water on a daily basis to reach anywhere.


Quote:

But, let us say, from what we do know of the world such things are not possible. If believing them gives you peace and comfort, fair enough, but do not expect all others to go along with you.


Let us put that to the test for sincerity... How could a believer expect an atheist to go along with them? You need to think about what you are actually suggesting. Peace, comfort where on earth do you get these things from? You need to stop believing what others write and make some decisions of your own.


Quote:

*Since you are genetically programmed to believe such stuff I suppose there is little chance of this. Perhaps there will be a cure for it one day.
 

Seems your ignorance about Christianity - is only exceeded by your alarming disposition to not being able to practice what you preach... you say and I quote:
Quote:

And neither camp has any proof either way.


Try writing your posts to show you actually believe this.


If it was genetic then we would all be believers. Or are you saying we do not have the same genes for male and female human beings?

Show me which is the Spiritual gene for God...

So please Dave, refrain from thinking you can use human wisdom to insult and not be seen to be provoking as you truly intended your post to be. You see if you really believed that nothing was proved, you would be gnostic not atheist. You would be afford me the same curtesy I do you.
So what was it about Christs genes which caused him to do these things?

Love Lynne.xx



Pukon_the_Treen

Lynne,

Quote:
As you do not believe in God, let me get this right...

You believe that Christ walked on water because of his genes?

etc.


As Dave says, I don't believe in God and I don't think the stories in your scripture are literal historical facts.  I doubt that Jesus really did any of those things, just as I doubt that Muhammed cut the moon in half with his sword, or Heracles held up the heavens, or Pythagoras could talk to animals, or Merlin could shape-shift, or Sigurd killed the dragon Fafnir and then bathed in it's blood making himslef invulnerable … these are myths and legends, so I have no idea what their abilities and exploits have to do with genes.  

I don't need to 'prove that Christ never did these things', all I need to do is the same as you do for stories about the miraculous deeds of Mohammed, Buddha, Heracles, Sigurd or Odysseus.  You read them and (if you have a sensible level of scepticism) you think to yourself “I doubt that is literally true, I expect it's a myth, possibly intended to convey some kind of symbolic or allegorical meaning”.

Why should I treat your heroic magical god-man character different from any other?
gone

Our camp as you put it, has proof in that they are still doing most of the things he did.

Go on where is that proof? When people making statements like that are challenged, it is always hard to pin them down to specifics.
Dave B

Quote:
Witnesses said he did do them
Witnesses rarely get things 100% right, they may see/feel what they desire, not see things that are out of context, they can lie or be bribed, they may not exist at all.

Even large groups get things wrong.

A version of the following clip is often used in psychology classes - did you spot why?

Link
Judders Lady...

Pukon_the_Treen wrote:
Lynne,

Quote:
As you do not believe in God, let me get this right...

You believe that Christ walked on water because of his genes?

etc.


As Dave says, I don't believe in God and I don't think the stories in your scripture are literal historical facts.  I doubt that Jesus really did any of those things, just as I doubt that Muhammed cut the moon in half with his sword, or Heracles held up the heavens, or Pythagoras could talk to animals, or Merlin could shape-shift, or Sigurd killed the dragon Fafnir and then bathed in it's blood making himslef invulnerable … these are myths and legends, so I have no idea what their abilities and exploits have to do with genes.  

I don't need to 'prove that Christ never did these things', all I need to do is the same as you do for stories about the miraculous deeds of Mohammed, Buddha, Heracles, Sigurd or Odysseus.  You read them and (if you have a sensible level of scepticism) you think to yourself “I doubt that is literally true, I expect it's a myth, possibly intended to convey some kind of symbolic or allegorical meaning”.

Why should I treat your heroic magical god-man character different from any other?


Hi Puke,

I hear what you are saying.

Was it really about treating a god-man character in any certain way?

The many things said about human kind within the writings of the bible are typically true in all ages. What I wonder is why men think others do not have a valid proof about God as far a Christianity?

I can read all the other things written throughout the course of history or believed and written later about that which you have written about.
But like yourself, I come to the same conclusions about those other things. I too, agree they are nothing real or true.

But that does not happen with YHWH.

Love Lynne.xx
Leonard James

Hi Dave,

Yes, I am in full agreement with that. We are all genetically inclined to behave in a certain way, but in most cases we are able to override that inclination if we think we should.

The phenomenon is extremely complicated because our personalities are the result of the influence of many different genes. There is no such thing as a gene for god-belief or a gene for antisocial behaviour ... all our behaviour is the result of the combined action of hundreds of genes and environmental influences ... and that is what makes us all individuals and not clones.
Pukon_the_Treen

Quote:
But that does not happen with YHWH.


For you, and for others who share your belief.

Personally I have read the bible and it seemed to me that the Old Testament is a load of tedious and largely irrelevant Jewish history, myths and legends, and the New Testament is a collection of Axial Age philosophical and ethical teachings, allegorical stories, symbolic myths and esoteric tales surrounding this enigmatic character called Jesus.  It's then capped off with Paul's various letters as he attempted to hammer the chaotic, disparate and vulnerable fledgling religion into something resembling a coherent unified church, and finally some frothing “our enemies are going to get theirs” hell-fire and brimstone prophecy, courtesy of John the Divine to try to cheer them all up when they were being persecuted.

I thought it was an interesting collection of books, though a little boring and impenetrable in places.  Never once while reading it did I feel compelled to take any of it as literally historically true, and therefore make it something that should change my life to base my beliefs and ideologies upon.  I've read more exciting and inspiring stories, and I've read more insightful and persuasive philosophy.
Dave B

Supporting what you say, Len:
http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresou...uman_Genome/elsi/behavior.shtml#1
Dave B

Quote:
Axial Age


That was a new phrase to me, Puke, now I have something else to read up on (as if I needed such addition!) I like the concept.
Leonard James

Dave B wrote:
Confirming what you say, Len:
http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresou...uman_Genome/elsi/behavior.shtml#1

HI Dave,

Many thanks for that link, mate! Extremely interesting and gratifying to see my own deductions borne out.
Pukon_the_Treen

Quote:
That was a new phrase to me, Puke, now I have something else to read up on (as if I needed such addition!) I like the concept.


Christ is a bit late for real Axial Age philosophy, which is the beginning of the realisation that you have a moral responsibility to all mankind, rather than just a loyalty to your nation or city state.  The Golden Rule is Axial Age philosophy in a nutshell; Christianity mixed that up with some interesting esoteric gnostic concepts about the nature of the divine and so on.
Judders Lady...

Pukon_the_Treen wrote:
Quote:
But that does not happen with YHWH.


For you, and for others who share your belief.

Personally I have read the bible and it seemed to me that the Old Testament is a load of tedious and largely irrelevant Jewish history, myths and legends, and the New Testament is a collection of Axial Age philosophical and ethical teachings, allegorical stories, symbolic myths and esoteric tales surrounding this enigmatic character called Jesus.  It's then capped off with Paul's various letters as he attempted to hammer the chaotic, disparate and vulnerable fledgling religion into something resembling a coherent unified church, and finally some frothing “our enemies are going to get theirs” hell-fire and brimstone prophecy, courtesy of John the Divine to try to cheer them all up when they were being persecuted.

I thought it was an interesting collection of books, though a little boring and impenetrable in places.  Never once while reading it did I feel compelled to take any of it as literally historically true, and therefore make it something that should change my life to base my beliefs and ideologies upon.  I've read more exciting and inspiring stories, and I've read more insightful and persuasive philosophy.


Hi Puke,

My faith began with two things.

1. God.

2. Jesus Christ being the Son of God and dying for our sins.

I had a relationship with God, long before I ever had any bible study.
God guided me into what he wanted me to know. It began with Moses and the leading of his people out of Egypt.

Till I came onto the internet, I never met any hostility to the belief about God. I thought the axial age of the Jews was from 900 to the exile?
What is the transition age/period for Christianity?
Do you have any references and are you using Karl Jaspers - 'The Origin and Goal of History?'

You have to remember that the Messiah was promised to the Jews.
How are you applying this to Christianity as a transitional period?

Love Lynne.xx

Samuel Vimes

Dave B wrote:
Quote:
Axial Age


That was a new phrase to me, Puke, now I have something else to read up on (as if I needed such addition!) I like the concept.


Karen Armstrong covers the period and the emerging philosophical ideas quite well in her book The Great Transformation http://www.amazon.co.uk/Great-Tra...oks&qid=1274646514&sr=1-8 if you're interested.
Dave B

Samuel Vimes wrote:
Dave B wrote:
Quote:
Axial Age


That was a new phrase to me, Puke, now I have something else to read up on (as if I needed such addition!) I like the concept.


Karen Armstrong covers the period and the emerging philosophical ideas quite well in her book The Great Transformation http://www.amazon.co.uk/Great-Tra...oks&qid=1274646514&sr=1-8 if you're interested.
Yeah, noted a ref to Armstrong on the Wiki page. Have not read any of her stuff yet, not sure just what to make of the woman. Is she as objective about the origins of religion as she sounded on a radio programme I wonder. Only one way to find out . . .

Thanks for the link.
Pukon_the_Treen

Quote:
Yeah, noted a ref to Armstrong on the Wiki page. Have not read any of her stuff yet, not sure just what to make of the woman


I am very drnk. Typing with one fiungure. I really liked her books. I thik you would enjoy them. Gudngt.
Judders Lady...

Pukon_the_Treen wrote:
Quote:
Yeah, noted a ref to Armstrong on the Wiki page. Have not read any of her stuff yet, not sure just what to make of the woman


I am very drnk. Typing with one fiungure. I really liked her books. I thik you would enjoy them. Gudngt.


 you drunken sop. Cheers!
#
Goodnight...

Love Lynne.xx
Leonard James

Pukon_the_Treen wrote:
I am very drnk. Typing with one fiungure. I really liked her books. I thik you would enjoy them. Gudngt.

Blimey, Puke! I hope you don't feel too bad this morning!    
Pukon_the_Treen

Urgg. Drank a lot of cider. Got a mouth like a baboon's posing-pouch this morning. Now got to go to work. I think it'll be a short day.
Dave B

Pukon_the_Treen wrote:
Urgg. Drank a lot of cider. Got a mouth like a baboon's posing-pouch this morning. Now got to go to work. I think it'll be a short day.
Ah, so you have been sufficiently intimate with a baboon to know the nature of his posing pouch eh?

Sound's like there's a good story there.
Leonard James

Dave B wrote:
Pukon_the_Treen wrote:
Urgg. Drank a lot of cider. Got a mouth like a baboon's posing-pouch this morning. Now got to go to work. I think it'll be a short day.
Ah, so you have been sufficiently intimate with a baboon to know the nature of his posing pouch eh?

Sound's like there's a good story there.

Please count me out if you are going to tell it!
IvyOwl

Quote:
Please count me out if you are going to tell it!


Once again you beat me to it Len .....'' I really really don't want to know!!! I'm curiious about most things and not particularly squeamish but ........ I do have standards!!!

IO
Leonard James

IvyOwl wrote:
Quote:
Please count me out if you are going to tell it!


Once again you beat me to it Len .....'' I really really don't want to know!!! I'm curiious about most things and not particularly squeamish but ........ I do have standards!!!

IO

There are not many aspects of my own species that I am averse to, but my mind draws the line at crossing the border!
Judders Lady...

Leonard James wrote:
Dave B wrote:
Pukon_the_Treen wrote:
Urgg. Drank a lot of cider. Got a mouth like a baboon's posing-pouch this morning. Now got to go to work. I think it'll be a short day.
Ah, so you have been sufficiently intimate with a baboon to know the nature of his posing pouch eh?

Sound's like there's a good story there.

Please count me out if you are going to tell it!


   Atheists + baboon's posing pouch! Yuk!
No one ever mentioned that about atheists...
Or is it just an atheist male thing...

Love Lynne.xx  
Pukon_the_Treen

Quote:
Atheists + baboon's posing pouch! Yuk!
No one ever mentioned that about atheists...
Or is it just an atheist male thing...

It's just a drinking cider in the sun thing. As far as I know, religious belief and gender have nothing to do with it.
Delrick53

Dave B wrote:
Pukon_the_Treen wrote:
Urgg. Drank a lot of cider. Got a mouth like a baboon's posing-pouch this morning. Now got to go to work. I think it'll be a short day.
Ah, so you have been sufficiently intimate with a baboon to know the nature of his posing pouch eh?

Sound's like there's a good story there.


Dave,

I believe you can buy things similar to posing pouches (worn underneath your strides) in all good sex shops.

I have, on one occasion, padded my cycling shorts with several pairs of socks for a 'Bad Taste' night at my local many years ago. Quite effective with my green wellies (that's WELLIES Leonard) and too tight Kylie 'T' shirt I got third prize !
Dave B

Delrick53 wrote:
Dave B wrote:
Pukon_the_Treen wrote:
Urgg. Drank a lot of cider. Got a mouth like a baboon's posing-pouch this morning. Now got to go to work. I think it'll be a short day.
Ah, so you have been sufficiently intimate with a baboon to know the nature of his posing pouch eh?

Sound's like there's a good story there.


Dave,

I believe you can buy things similar to posing pouches (worn underneath your strides) in all good sex shops.

I have, on one occasion, padded my cycling shorts with several pairs of socks for a 'Bad Taste' night at my local many years ago. Quite effective with my green wellies (that's WELLIES Leonard) and too tight Kylie 'T' shirt I got third prize !
The mental image has quite put me off my breakfast!
Judders Lady...

Hi Puke,

Pukon_the_Treen wrote:
Quote:
Atheists + baboon's posing pouch! Yuk!
No one ever mentioned that about atheists...
Or is it just an atheist male thing...

It's just a drinking cider in the sun thing. As far as I know, religious belief and gender have nothing to do with it.


I am a believer and I have been drinking cider in the sun what does that mean for me?  

Love Lynne.xx
----------

Hi Lynne,

I remain puzzled as to why you still seem to think that Christians and atheists are somehow fundamentally different? Our beliefs are just mental tools we use to get us through life's rough and tumble.

We are all the same imperfect humans under our beliefs
Pukon_the_Treen

Lynne,

Quote:
I am a believer and I have been drinking cider in the sun what does that mean for me?


I have no idea.  I do know that if you drink a lot of cider, or indeed any alcohol then you will get the rough, rank dehydrated mouth the morning after, which is one of the symptoms of overindulgence.

I honestly don't see how religious faith of any kind can protect you from this basic physiological fact.
Samuel Vimes

Pukon_the_Treen wrote:
Lynne,

Quote:
I am a believer and I have been drinking cider in the sun what does that mean for me?


I have no idea.  I do know that if you drink a lot of cider, or indeed any alcohol then you will get the rough, rank dehydrated mouth the morning after, which is one of the symptoms of overindulgence.

I honestly don't see how religious faith of any kind can protect you from this basic physiological fact.


Perhaps it's a miracle?  
Judders Lady...

Pukon_the_Treen wrote:
Lynne,

Quote:
I am a believer and I have been drinking cider in the sun what does that mean for me?


I have no idea.  I do know that if you drink a lot of cider, or indeed any alcohol then you will get the rough, rank dehydrated mouth the morning after, which is one of the symptoms of overindulgence.

I honestly don't see how religious faith of any kind can protect you from this basic physiological fact.


It doesn't happen to me...

I never get hangovers either....

Love Lynne.xx
Pukon_the_Treen

Quote:
It doesn't happen to me...

I never get hangovers either....


Everyone gets hangovers and the effects of dehydration following heavy drinking.  Maybe you can drink more before you get a hangover, maybe you have never drunk enough to get a hangover, maybe you sensibly rehydrate before going to sleep, but you will not be immune.

You have a knack at making even the most light-hearted and flippant post become utterly boring.
Judders Lady...

Pukon_the_Treen wrote:
Quote:
It doesn't happen to me...

I never get hangovers either....


Everyone gets hangovers and the effects of dehydration following heavy drinking.  Maybe you can drink more before you get a hangover, maybe you have never drunk enough to get a hangover, maybe you sensibly rehydrate before going to sleep, but you will not be immune.


Could probably drink you under the table,walk home and get up to a cooked breakfast with no headache. Though a glass of milk is nice when you have had a night on the bevy. Really refreshing.


Quote:

You have a knack at making even the most light-hearted and flippant post become utterly boring.

Yeah!  like I really care... what you imagine!
You can only make a post as interesting as the people you post with, allow you to. I guess your sense of humour bypass really worked.

Love Lynne.xx
Pukon_the_Treen

Quote:
Could probably drink you under the table,walk home and get up to a cooked breakfast with no headache.


Jesus, I was right; you really are a fourteen year old boy. You'll be telling me your dad can beat up mine next.
Judders Lady...

Pukon_the_Treen wrote:
Quote:
Could probably drink you under the table,walk home and get up to a cooked breakfast with no headache.


Jesus, I was right; you really are a fourteen year old boy. You'll be telling me your dad can beat up mine next.


No! My Father is dead! Never did such childish behaviour even as a child.
My Father was a decent man who did not teach us to fight.
We were taught to walk away from trouble and only to hit back if we were hit first.

Love Lynne.xx
Dave B

Quote:
My Father was a decent man who did not teach us to fight.
We were taught to walk away from trouble and only to hit back if we were hit first.


There seems to be a contradiction there somewhere.

But then, that's no surprise.
Delrick53

Dave B wrote:
Quote:
My Father was a decent man who did not teach us to fight.
We were taught to walk away from trouble and only to hit back if we were hit first.


There seems to be a contradiction there somewhere.

But then, that's no surprise.



And if you turn your back on an angry drunk with a hammer, and walk away, I doubt if you'd get more than a couple of steps, and you wouldn't be able to hit back at all.

Try the real world Lynne.
Judders Lady...

Delrick53 wrote:
Dave B wrote:
Quote:
My Father was a decent man who did not teach us to fight.
We were taught to walk away from trouble and only to hit back if we were hit first.


There seems to be a contradiction there somewhere.

But then, that's no surprise.



And if you turn your back on an angry drunk with a hammer, and walk away, I doubt if you'd get more than a couple of steps, and you wouldn't be able to hit back at all.

Try the real world Lynne.




I am not sure what places you drink in Del,
But I can assure you, that there are no drunks with hammers in any place I socialise in.

Get a grip on reality.

Love Lynne.xx
Judders Lady...

Dave B wrote:
Quote:
My Father was a decent man who did not teach us to fight.
We were taught to walk away from trouble and only to hit back if we were hit first.


There seems to be a contradiction there somewhere.

But then, that's no surprise.


DaveB,

Not a contradiction in sight. As I said we walked away from trouble but some people are persistent.
So if someone hit us, we hit them back only in defense.

Love Lynne.xx
Lexilogio

~xx~ Lynne... ~xx~ wrote:
Dave B wrote:
Quote:
My Father was a decent man who did not teach us to fight.
We were taught to walk away from trouble and only to hit back if we were hit first.


There seems to be a contradiction there somewhere.

But then, that's no surprise.


DaveB,

Not a contradiction in sight. As I said we walked away from trouble but some people are persistent.
So if someone hit us, we hit them back only in defense.

Love Lynne.xx



Matthew 18
"21Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven."
Leonard James

Morning Lexi,
Lexilogio wrote:
Matthew 18
"21Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven."

If forgiving means letting the transgressor go unpunished 490 times, it is an idiotic instruction.
Lexilogio

Leonard James wrote:
Morning Lexi,
Lexilogio wrote:
Matthew 18
"21Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven."

If forgiving means letting the transgressor go unpunished 490 times, it is an idiotic instruction.


 It's certainly one of the most challenging things Jesus said. I wonder if any of us manage to adhere to it.

It does make a good point though - that seeking revenge can be counter productive.
Judders Lady...

Lexilogio wrote:
~xx~ Lynne... ~xx~ wrote:
Dave B wrote:
Quote:
My Father was a decent man who did not teach us to fight.
We were taught to walk away from trouble and only to hit back if we were hit first.


There seems to be a contradiction there somewhere.

But then, that's no surprise.


DaveB,

Not a contradiction in sight. As I said we walked away from trouble but some people are persistent.
So if someone hit us, we hit them back only in defense.

Love Lynne.xx



Matthew 18
"21Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven."





Not heard you ask for forgiveness yet?
Are you going to ask me to forgive you?

Does God forgive you your sins before you confess and ask for forgiveness?

Do pay attention Lexi and then you won't quote scripture out of context.
I take it, you would stand by and let someone murder you or your child?
Sure you want to continue in this mode. Thought not!
Sad you fall every time.

Judge not lest thou be judged. What adult has to be told to walk away from trouble.

Love IN Jesus,

Lynne.xx
Leonard James

Morning Lexi,
Lexilogio wrote:
It does make a good point though - that seeking revenge can be counter productive.

Therein lies the misinterpretation. Revenge is not synonymous with just punishment. Think about it.

When God punished people in your favourite story, was it revenge or justice?

When people are imprisoned for breaking the law, is it revenge or justice?

My personal opinion is that it is not a case of revenge, but a case of teaching them a lesson for the future. By all means forgive them for their misdeeds (nobody is perfect), but don't just let them go unpunished.
Lexilogio

   

I have nothing to apologise for. When I do - like to Rural Messiah - I do apologise.

Funny - I don't remember ever seeing you apologise, Lynne.

If you have - please feel free to point out the post.

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