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Shaker

'Science progresses, religion does not'

From Jerry Coyne's website, a talking point:

Quote:
Unfortunately for religion, science has progressed while our understanding of the supernatural has not.  Ask a scientist "What more do we know about science than we did in 1800?" You will get tons of answers. Then ask a theologian, "What more do we know about God, his nature, and his will than we did in 1800?" The answer will be, "Nothing."


True, partly true, untrue? Discuss.
Leonard James

Re: 'Science progresses, religion does not'

Shaker wrote:
From Jerry Coyne's website, a talking point:

Quote:
Unfortunately for religion, science has progressed while our understanding of the supernatural has not.  Ask a scientist "What more do we know about science than we did in 1800?" You will get tons of answers. Then ask a theologian, "What more do we know about God, his nature, and his will than we did in 1800?" The answer will be, "Nothing."


True, partly true, untrue? Discuss.


For me, it is true ... but I will happily change that to untrue if anybody can offer evidence of further knowledge about "God" since 1800.
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Shaker

Leonard! Wonderful to see you back here again  
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Leonard James

Shaker wrote:
Leonard! Wonderful to see you back here again  


Thank you mate! My very best wishes to all here who remember me ... and, of course, to those who don't!
Leonard James

Floo wrote:
Shaker wrote:
Leonard! Wonderful to see you back here again  


A love in!

Yes it is good to see our Leonard still has all his marbles in spite of being our oldest poster, I believe.


Ta, Roses. I'm glad to see that all you youngsters are still fighting the good fight!
trentvoyager

May I also add my heartiest of welcomes, LJ.
IvyOwl

And a big   from me as well!
Lexilogio

Re: 'Science progresses, religion does not'

Leonard James wrote:
Shaker wrote:
From Jerry Coyne's website, a talking point:

Quote:
Unfortunately for religion, science has progressed while our understanding of the supernatural has not.  Ask a scientist "What more do we know about science than we did in 1800?" You will get tons of answers. Then ask a theologian, "What more do we know about God, his nature, and his will than we did in 1800?" The answer will be, "Nothing."


True, partly true, untrue? Discuss.


For me, it is true ... but I will happily change that to untrue if anybody can offer evidence of further knowledge about "God" since 1800.


Hello LJ!

How are you doing?
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Leonard James wrote:
Floo wrote:
Shaker wrote:
Leonard! Wonderful to see you back here again  


A love in!

Yes it is good to see our Leonard still has all his marbles in spite of being our oldest poster, I believe.


Ta, Roses. I'm glad to see that all you youngsters are still fighting the good fight!


Thanks for including me in the youngsters category. When I am with my grandchildren I feel at least 150, they never let me forget I am OLD!
Leonard James

Thank you Lexi, Ivy and Trent ... and to save monotonous repetitions of my appreciation of your welcomes, thank you to any others that may post in the same vein.

I don't know why I feel the need to acknowledge old mates every time, but I confess to getting progressively older and sillier ... maybe that has something to do wih it!
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Leonard James wrote:
Thank you Lexi, Ivy and Trent ... and to save monotonous repetitions of my appreciation of your welcomes, thank you to any others that may post in the same vein.

I don't know why I feel the need to acknowledge old mates every time, but I confess to getting progressively older and sillier ... maybe that has something to do wih it!


Compared with some others much younger, your marbles still seem to be intact!  
Powwow

Really floo, you hope religion becomes redundant and throws one of your family members out of a career? You can be nasty my dear.
Powwow

As long as people have questions about life, there will questions about God. Much to Shaker's disappointment. lol
It amuses me that so often it is those godless ones that constantly have these questions about God. God is always on their minds, and that's a good thing. Tells me that they are not truly confident in their godlessness.
Shaker

pow wow wrote:
As long as people have questions about life, there will questions about God. Much to Shaker's disappointment.

Questions are great: I just wish so many people didn't come up with such patently silly answers as stopgaps because, for some, any answer no matter how bizarre is better than none. Some people seem to have a need for this kind of thing.
Quote:
It amuses me that so often it is those godless ones that constantly have these questions about God. God is always on their minds, and that's a good thing. Tells me that they are not truly confident in their godlessness.

No, I've no questions at all about any god.

The people who believe in such things, however - now, that's a different matter altogether.

Oh, and by the way: the day I stop being completely confident in my godlessness will be the day on which I'm furnished with the following (in this order): (a) a definition of a god and (b) some credible evidence of the aforementioned.

I doubt if today is going to be that day, but hey - you could always surprise us, eh, powsers?  
Powwow

How arrogant Shaker. As if I was addressing you, the only real atheist about. LOL You, the leader of the atheist world. lol
But I don't believe for a second that you have no doubts about your godlessness. You wouldn't be such a rabid hater of Christianity if you were truly happy and sure of your godlessness.
Now don't be a sill atheist. You must admit that the godless do pester the Christians for answers about God. Hey wait, maybe you're on to something. All those atheists with all those questions about God. You know, like over on R&E. They're not truly godless. They're not sure and happy with their position of God or no God. Well that's a good thing. Lord, may they never run out of questions
Derek

Re: 'Science progresses, religion does not'

Shaker wrote:
From Jerry Coyne's website, a talking point:

Quote:
Unfortunately for religion, science has progressed while our understanding of the supernatural has not.  Ask a scientist "What more do we know about science than we did in 1800?" You will get tons of answers. Then ask a theologian, "What more do we know about God, his nature, and his will than we did in 1800?" The answer will be, "Nothing."


True, partly true, untrue? Discuss.


So. Science is progressive. We are constantly acquiring knew know because we are looking for it. What more do we need to know about religion. We have the scripture, a book of commandments intended to guide and direct us, what else is there to know.

Pretty stupid comparison really. To compare science to the world economy is more appropriate. To compare it with religion is meaningless, like the thread.
Powwow

The truth is that the religion of the liberal protestant churches is constantly progressing. It's changing all the time. And the truth is that this need of those churches to stay hip to the jive of our changing society is exactly what is killing them off. As it should kill them off. A long and painful death.
trentvoyager

pow wow wrote:
The truth is that the religion of the liberal protestant churches is constantly progressing. It's changing all the time. And the truth is that this need of those churches to stay hip to the jive of our changing society is exactly what is killing them off. As it should kill them off. A long and painful death.


So you don't think Churches should ever change then?
Derek

pow wow wrote:
The truth is that the religion of the liberal protestant churches is constantly progressing. It's changing all the time. And the truth is that this need of those churches to stay hip to the jive of our changing society is exactly what is killing them off. As it should kill them off. A long and painful death.


A chance for me to learn something. So these liberal protestant, who are they, do they not believe that God is never changing? The same yesterday, today, tomorrow and for ever. How can you change or progress perfection. As soon as you change it then it ceases to be perfect. If you try and process it you change it so it ceases to be perfect. It makes no sense to me to be able to change something that is perfect. Hence the stupidity in the OP. Science can be wrong, religion cannot be wrong, therefore, no requirement for it to progress.
trentvoyager

Quote:
God is never changing?


Slight shifting of goal posts there - Religion was under discussion not God.

Or are you claiming that religion is "perfection" ?
Powwow

Religion can be wrong, very, very wrong.
In my opinion, a liberal church must be of the notion that God changes.
Powwow

A church that starts to preach something unbiblical or starts to butcher the Word of God by omitting portions of His word does need to change. Change back to preach the whole Word.
Shaker

pow wow wrote:
How arrogant Shaker. As if I was addressing you, the only real atheist about. LOL You, the leader of the atheist world. lol

You replied to the thread I started and mentioned me by name in so doing. I take that as an address.
Quote:
But I don't believe for a second that you have no doubts about your godlessness.

What you believe has no bearing on the truth.
Quote:
You wouldn't be such a rabid hater of Christianity if you were truly happy and sure of your godlessness.

That's a non sequitur - or, for your benefit, that means that this conclusion doesn't follow from the premise.

Quote:
You must admit that the godless do pester the Christians for answers about God.

Some of them undoubtedly do. However it strikes me that what such people are doing is not asking questions about something they don't believe exists, but questioning other people as to what exactly they purport to believe to be true. If somebody believes that they have been abducted by aliens (for instance), questioning them about their beliefs is not a sure sign that the questioner himself believes it to be the case but expresses a desire on his part to try to tease out what the alleged abductee believes and why he believes it. In my not inconsiderable experience religionists - theists especially - are simply not very good at giving a clear and coherent account of exactly what it is that they claim to believe. If you take the trouble to ask people, in a serious, thoughtful and respectful manner, about what it is they say they believe about gods (starting first and foremost with a clear defintiion of the word before anything else) unfortunately 999 times out of a thousand what ensues is an awful lot of woolly and windy stammering, hand-waving, prevarication, equivocation and very little - if anything in fact - of any actual substance.

Quote:
Hey wait, maybe you're on to something. All those atheists with all those questions about God. You know, like over on R&E.

I'm not a member so I wouldn't know.
Shaker

pow wow wrote:
Religion can be wrong, very, very wrong.
In my opinion, a liberal church must be of the notion that God changes.

I was more of the understanding that for these churches the notion is rather than the human "knowledge" or "understanding" (for want of far, far better words, but they'll have to suffice for now) is the thing that changes, not a god. (That a god is literally changeless is just one of the numerous other reasons for rejecting such a concept, but that's for another thread).
Derek

trentvoyager wrote:
Quote:
God is never changing?


Slight shifting of goal posts there - Religion was under discussion not God.

Or are you claiming that religion is "perfection" ?


Absolutely not. No, it is God that is perfect but it is God who is the focal point in religion. The scripture do not change. They have been the same for centuries so religions really cannot change in their teachings only the manmade aspects of religion's change, surely, that is, the administration. If the central figure of religion is without change then surely religion cannot change either?
Shaker

Ralph2 wrote:
trentvoyager wrote:
Quote:
God is never changing?


Slight shifting of goal posts there - Religion was under discussion not God.

Or are you claiming that religion is "perfection" ?


Absolutely not. No, it is God that is perfect but it is God who is the focal point in religion.

In theistic religions, anyway.
Powwow

Shaker, lol,  I wrote "much to Shaker's disappointment" The post in no way was an address to you. Stop being so arrogant.lol

The post was a general post at ALL my fans out there. Not a specific address to my fan Shaker. lol
Shaker

pow wow wrote:
Shaker, lol,  I wrote "much to Shaker's disappointment" The post in no way was an address to you. Stop being so arrogant.lol

The post was a general post at ALL my fans out there. Not a specific address to my fan Shaker. lol

That particular phone box has been closed down, alas.

Are you going for the record number of utterly pointless usages of 'lol' in one post?
IvyOwl

Quote:
The scripture do not change.


But the interpretation can and therein is the problem. As I said over on another thread it's so easy to misunderstand what has been said.

Some people are happy to stick with a particular interpretation and others will question and re-examine. Look carefully into the meaning of each word and the various languages it's been through and come to a different conclusion. Yet they are all using the same scripture to seek the same god.

I find it fascinating that so many different strands calling themselves Christian have arisen and nearly all of them are saying that the rest aren't 'true Christians' and that only they have got it right.

OK so just suppose that one of them actually is ....... it leaves an awful lot of outsiders.
trentvoyager

IvyOwl wrote:
Quote:
The scripture do not change.


But the interpretation can and therein is the problem. As I said over on another thread it's so easy to misunderstand what has been said.

Some people are happy to stick with a particular interpretation and others will question and re-examine. Look carefully into the meaning of each word and the various languages it's been through and come to a different conclusion. Yet they are all using the same scripture to seek the same god.

I find it fascinating that so many different strands calling themselves Christian have arisen and nearly all of them are saying that the rest aren't 'true Christians' and that only they have got it right.

OK so just suppose that one of them actually is ....... it leaves an awful lot of outsiders.


 

Said in about a third of the length it would have taken me!
Powwow

And I find it interesting that never are scientists if full agreement. Oops, not interesting but just human.
Derek

IvyOwl wrote:
Quote:
The scripture do not change.


But the interpretation can and therein is the problem. As I said over on another thread it's so easy to misunderstand what has been said.

Some people are happy to stick with a particular interpretation and others will question and re-examine. Look carefully into the meaning of each word and the various languages it's been through and come to a different conclusion. Yet they are all using the same scripture to seek the same god.

I find it fascinating that so many different strands calling themselves Christian have arisen and nearly all of them are saying that the rest aren't 'true Christians' and that only they have got it right.

OK so just suppose that one of them actually is ....... it leaves an awful lot of outsiders.


That is a very real problem, if you need to have scripture interpreted for you. Nobody really does as scripture is personal to the individual. Many times I have been perplexed over a particular problem and have ended up praying about after I have failed to resolve the problem. By chance my dilemma will be resolved through reading the scriptures and a particular verse, or so. On a completely different occasion I may look again to the scriptures for an answer and yet again fall upon the same verse that resolves an entirely different problem. What has change is the problem and my mind set. The scriptures have remained unchanged. This is what is supposed to happen though. That same verse may have a different meaning to someone else. That is I say that the scripture must be personal. It is not a blanket resolve to everyone's problems. That does not make religion progressive though. If Born Again Christian's need the scriptures to be interpreted then I guess that is there right. Religion does not need to change in order to accommodate the need for mankind to form groups.

I do not attend any religious organisation. I am fine with my interpretations of scriptures. Those interpretations only effect myself so I am good with my religion. That is one reason why I ruffle feathers here. I think that is what Jesus meant when he said where two or three are gathered in my name, there I will be in the midst. No bricks and mortar and a clergy. I worship today in the same way as they did in the time of Jesus. There will be no denominations in heaven. Remember as well that the scriptures were written in a way that allows for the simplest of minds to read. Lastly, God is omniscient. What the scriptures contain is what it is supposed to contain dispite any error in Translation. What we have is what we are meant to have. What the Germans have is what they are supposed to have. And so on. To suggest otherwise puts limits on God.

Science cannot be compared with that. It is the search for answers to our universe that we do not yet have. New knowledge to make this a better place to live. Religion is set in stone. That men might try and progress it in some way is irrelevant. It will never change.
Powwow

Outsiders? Would that be like politics? If you don't agree with say socialism, you be an outsider.
He, there are enough brands of religion, you don't have to be an outsider if you don't want to actually be one. Even if you don't want a particular brand, you can't be considered an outside cause you're hardly alone. There be millions of ya.
Lexilogio

Does religion progress?

Well, if it didn't, we'd be Jewish. So it has.
And if it didn't, we'd be Catholic. So it has.
Ketty

Leonard James wrote:
Shaker wrote:
Leonard! Wonderful to see you back here again  


Thank you mate! My very best wishes to all here who remember me ... and, of course, to those who don't!


Lennie, being as you're always around, I never feel of you as having 'gone away', but welcome back to NGLr anyway my friend. ((( Hug )))

Re the topic: science is about different things compared to 'religion'.  Lord save us from 'religion'!  I have no problem with the conflicts that others find between the two - faith and science.  For me, God is in science.

I can't speak of 'religions' because there are so many, but regarding Christianity: our God is the same yesterday, as He is today and as He is tomorrow.  The way humans express their faith may change, how they 'do' church may change, but the core and the root is unchanging.

In a certain sense 'science' too is unchanging - all the things we 'discover' or invent - it all comes from the raw ingredients that are already available: we see it as 'progressing' the more we learn, but it's all there already.   It's like the 'discovery' of Australia - it was found, but yet it was always there.
Leonard James

Ketty wrote:

Re the topic: science is about different things compared to 'religion'.  Lord save us from 'religion'!  I have no problem with the conflicts that others find between the two - faith and science.  For me, God is in science.

I can't speak of 'religions' because there are so many, but regarding Christianity: our God is the same yesterday, as He is today and as He is tomorrow.  The way humans express their faith may change, how they 'do' church may change, but the core and the root is unchanging.

In a certain sense 'science' too is unchanging - all the things we 'discover' or invent - it all comes from the raw ingredients that are already available: we see it as 'progressing' the more we learn, but it's all there already.   It's like the 'discovery' of Australia - it was found, but yet it was always there.


I agree with all you say except the God stuff. Nobody knows anything about the origin of the universe, despite the great number of hypotheses put forward. Any beliefs you may have about your particular God are totally your own, with no way of verifying their truth except in your own mind.

It's amusing that we agonize so much about it all, when it is a complete waste of time!  
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Leonard James

Floo wrote:
It is more than likely that when we kick the bucket we will cease to be, and will never find out about the origins of the universe.


Absolutely! The sensible thing to do would be to get on with our lives and not bother any more about it, but we humans are incorrigibly curious ... so I suppose we shall just go on arguing about it!  
Powwow

We Christians are getting on with our lives. Interesting that the godless around here can't get on with theirs. They always have us and our God on their minds, the evidence is this and other forums. Now why can they just get on with their lives? lol
trentvoyager

pow wow wrote:
We Christians are getting on with our lives. Interesting that the godless around here can't get on with theirs. They always have us and our God on their minds, the evidence is this and other forums. Now why can they just get on with their lives? lol


Surely that cuts both ways?
Derek

trentvoyager wrote:
pow wow wrote:
We Christians are getting on with our lives. Interesting that the godless around here can't get on with theirs. They always have us and our God on their minds, the evidence is this and other forums. Now why can they just get on with their lives? lol


Surely that cuts both ways?


How many atheists forums are there. How many Christians set up atheist forums. How many Christians are to be found hanging around atheists forums being rude and obnoxious. No, Christian's just get on with it whilst atheist do whatever they can to disrupt things
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trentvoyager

Ralph2 wrote:
trentvoyager wrote:
pow wow wrote:
We Christians are getting on with our lives. Interesting that the godless around here can't get on with theirs. They always have us and our God on their minds, the evidence is this and other forums. Now why can they just get on with their lives? lol


Surely that cuts both ways?


How many atheists forums are there. How many Christians set up atheist forums. How many Christians are to be found hanging around atheists forums being rude and obnoxious. No, Christian's just get on with it whilst atheist do whatever they can to disrupt things


As this isn't a Christian forum - yet again another epic fail!
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Shaker

Ralph2 wrote:
How many Christians are to be found hanging around atheists forums being rude and obnoxious.

In my online experience (sixteen years this month, as it happens) I've known a good many. A few years ago I was a moderator for a long time on one of the biggest and best-known science/atheism-related forums on the Web at that time (membership in the tens of thousands) - one of the best in general, in my opinion - and I can tell you from first-hand experience that there were lots of them.
Derek

trentvoyager wrote:
Ralph2 wrote:
trentvoyager wrote:
pow wow wrote:
We Christians are getting on with our lives. Interesting that the godless around here can't get on with theirs. They always have us and our God on their minds, the evidence is this and other forums. Now why can they just get on with their lives? lol


Surely that cuts both ways?


How many atheists forums are there. How many Christians set up atheist forums. How many Christians are to be found hanging around atheists forums being rude and obnoxious. No, Christian's just get on with it whilst atheist do whatever they can to disrupt things


As this isn't a Christian forum - yet again another epic fail!


I didn't say that it was so the epic mistake is all yours
cymrudynnion

Floo wrote:
How many Christians are rude and obnoxious? I can think of one or two on this forum!
Floo this is Cyberland, how do you know all that post on here tell the truth, i.e. they are Christian?
northernstar

Ah, the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, all Christians tell the truth.
The Boyg

northernstar wrote:
Ah, the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, all Christians tell the truth.


Only the "true" ones. The rest of us are just sinners trying to do our best but failing sometimes.
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Leonard James

The Boyg wrote:
northernstar wrote:
Ah, the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, all Christians tell the truth.


Only the "true" ones. The rest of us are just sinners trying to do our best but failing sometimes.


Woe, woe, woe is me! I am a poor miserable sinner!

(beating breast and tearing hair)

       
northernstar

What is a true Christian when they're being told they're sinners? Doesn't apply to atheists, of course.
The Boyg

northernstar wrote:
What is a true Christian when they're being told they're sinners?


I don't understand the question.
Lexilogio

northernstar wrote:
What is a true Christian when they're being told they're sinners? Doesn't apply to atheists, of course.


To be honest, I've never understood, or even liked the term, "true Christian".

Jesus talked about one church. To suggest that some are true and some are not, divides the church when we should be looking towards unity.

A Christian is anyone who tries to follow Christ. I say, "tries", because I've not yet met anyone who does it perfectly. Although I have met some who do a better job of it than others. Sometimes I meet people who are what I would term, "Clearly Christian". Their actions meet their words, and they seem to do a better job of following Jesus than I do. And guess what - this select group contain people from a variety of Christian churches.
Ketty

Lexilogio wrote:

To be honest, I've never understood, or even liked the term, "true Christian".


It means nothing, one is either a Christian, nor not . . . but I guess for those who do not understand, and with all the pseudo-christian stuff in the world, it can be sort of helpful to them as some sort of measure.
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Shaker

Lexilogio wrote:
To be honest, I've never understood, or even liked the term, "true Christian".

Jesus talked about one church. To suggest that some are true and some are not, divides the church when we should be looking towards unity.

It's the sort of term that comes from inside any particular given denomination club (inside because there are those who arrogate to themselves the title "We're all true Christians: we've got it right - everybody else is wrong") and is directed at those outside ("They're not true Christians"). Pretty much all denominations do this to a certain degree, which is presumably why there are over 30,000 of them.*

*Over 40,000 according to some sources.
Derek

Lexilogio wrote:
northernstar wrote:
What is a true Christian when they're being told they're sinners? Doesn't apply to atheists, of course.


To be honest, I've never understood, or even liked the term, "true Christian".

Jesus talked about one church. To suggest that some are true and some are not, divides the church when we should be looking towards unity.

A Christian is anyone who tries to follow Christ. I say, "tries", because I've not yet met anyone who does it perfectly. Although I have met some who do a better job of it than others. Sometimes I meet people who are what I would term, "Clearly Christian". Their actions meet their words, and they seem to do a better job of following Jesus than I do. And guess what - this select group contain people from a variety of Christian churches.


I disagree Lexi. I sincerely believe that you are "Clearly Christian" I genuinely believe that. I have personally witnessed it. If you are not then I will give up trying.
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Lexilogio

Ralph2 wrote:
Lexilogio wrote:
northernstar wrote:
What is a true Christian when they're being told they're sinners? Doesn't apply to atheists, of course.


To be honest, I've never understood, or even liked the term, "true Christian".

Jesus talked about one church. To suggest that some are true and some are not, divides the church when we should be looking towards unity.

A Christian is anyone who tries to follow Christ. I say, "tries", because I've not yet met anyone who does it perfectly. Although I have met some who do a better job of it than others. Sometimes I meet people who are what I would term, "Clearly Christian". Their actions meet their words, and they seem to do a better job of following Jesus than I do. And guess what - this select group contain people from a variety of Christian churches.


I disagree Lexi. I sincerely believe that you are "Clearly Christian" I genuinely believe that. I have personally witnessed it. If you are not then I will give up trying.


Thank you - but perhaps we are all better at spotting our own failings than those of others.

But it is wonderful when you see someone who is a great example. I had a relative who was a Catholic Priest, and there were countless tiny details of Christian behaviour. I don't think he ever wanted anything for himself, it was always about some charity, or a community project.
Derek

Lexilogio wrote:
Ralph2 wrote:
Lexilogio wrote:
northernstar wrote:
What is a true Christian when they're being told they're sinners? Doesn't apply to atheists, of course.


To be honest, I've never understood, or even liked the term, "true Christian".

Jesus talked about one church. To suggest that some are true and some are not, divides the church when we should be looking towards unity.

A Christian is anyone who tries to follow Christ. I say, "tries", because I've not yet met anyone who does it perfectly. Although I have met some who do a better job of it than others. Sometimes I meet people who are what I would term, "Clearly Christian". Their actions meet their words, and they seem to do a better job of following Jesus than I do. And guess what - this select group contain people from a variety of Christian churches.


I disagree Lexi. I sincerely believe that you are "Clearly Christian" I genuinely believe that. I have personally witnessed it. If you are not then I will give up trying.


Thank you - but perhaps we are all better at spotting our own failings than those of others.

But it is wonderful when you see someone who is a great example. I had a relative who was a Catholic Priest, and there were countless tiny details of Christian behaviour. I don't think he ever wanted anything for himself, it was always about some charity, or a community project.


One of my favourite scriptures is the parable about the fruit of the tree. That is by their fruit shall they be known. I love my God with all my mind, heart and soul. I love His son, Jesus Christ, likewise. No matter what I do and no matter what my sins may be they will still love me and give me a second chance. That, to me, is one of the characteristics of God. You did the same to me Lexi showing the sweetness of you fruit. I will never forget that as at the time I was at a low ebb in my life and had lost faith in Christian's on these forum. Your Christ like act restored that faith. I know that you are not perfect, none of us are, but you are "Clearly a Christian".  

Powwow, is also "Clearly a Christian" I have had some pretty hostile debates with him yet he bares no grudge or animosity towards me. I know that the Borg is not always easy to like. I have had some pretty intense battles with him but I know nobody who fights against dishonesty and lies as fervently as he does. Surely he to is "Clearly a Christian" Cymru has some views that might offend some people but he does what many of us do not do. He stand for righteousness regardless of consequences. Surely he to is "Clearly a Christian" All prime examples of good Christian clad with the full armour of God willing to do battle against the adversary. You are a good person Lexi. Surely you are "Clearly a Christian"
Ketty

Lexilogio wrote:

Thank you - but perhaps we are all better at spotting our own failings than those of others.


Shaker

Ralph2 wrote:
Powwow, is also "Clearly a Christian" I have had some pretty hostile debates with him yet he bares no grudge or animosity towards me. I know that the Borg is not always easy to like. I have had some pretty intense battles with him but I know nobody who fights against dishonesty and lies as fervently as he does. Surely he to is "Clearly a Christian" Cymru has some views that might offend some people but he does what many of us do not do. He stand for righteousness regardless of consequences. Surely he to is "Clearly a Christian" All prime examples of good Christian clad with the full armour of God willing to do battle against the adversary. You are a good person Lexi. Surely you are "Clearly a Christian"

A category of people which manages to embrace powsers, cymruddinion and Boyg but also Lexi doesn't seem to have much mileage in it ... if 'clearly-a-Christian' cymruddinion's notoriously vile views on homosexuality entail that he "stands for righeousness" (according to you) and 'clearly-a-Christian' Lexi's views are pretty well the polar opposite, is she "standing for righteousness" too?
Derek

Shaker wrote:
Ralph2 wrote:
Powwow, is also "Clearly a Christian" I have had some pretty hostile debates with him yet he bares no grudge or animosity towards me. I know that the Borg is not always easy to like. I have had some pretty intense battles with him but I know nobody who fights against dishonesty and lies as fervently as he does. Surely he to is "Clearly a Christian" Cymru has some views that might offend some people but he does what many of us do not do. He stand for righteousness regardless of consequences. Surely he to is "Clearly a Christian" All prime examples of good Christian clad with the full armour of God willing to do battle against the adversary. You are a good person Lexi. Surely you are "Clearly a Christian"

A category of people which manages to embrace powsers, cymruddinion and Boyg but also Lexi doesn't seem to have much mileage in it ... if 'clearly-a-Christian' cymruddinion's notoriously vile views on homosexuality entail that he "stands for righeousness" (according to you) and 'clearly-a-Christian' Lexi's views are pretty well the polar opposite, is she "standing for righteousness" too?


We are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God. Lexi would be the first to admit that. You think differently to Christians.
trentvoyager

Quote:
You think differently to Christmas.



Eh?
Shaker

Ralph2 wrote:
We are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God. Lexi would be the first to admit that.

That's not an answer to the question I actually asked, though.
Quote:
You think differently to Christmas.

Well yes, it's September. I'll certainly be thinking of Christmas come next month, however.
Derek

Yes, I did correct it. I have predictive text on my kindle and cannot turn it ofF. It usually is ok as most others that I debate with are intelligent enough to be able to decipher it without actually making themselves look either stupid by asking or a wind up merchants. I keep forgetting that this is beyond you two. I will be more vigilant in checking it in the future. We can't have you two left behind can we. My lecturers used to say that when you teach then teach to the stupidest person in the class so I should be more mindful.
Derek

Shaker

Quote:
Ralph2 wrote:
We are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God. Lexi would be the first to admit that.

That's not an answer to the question I actually asked, though.

Before you criticize other people's beliefs look at your own first. Like thinking that murder is normal. You are not in a position to critique Cymru when you have some unusual beliefs as well.

Matthew 7

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
Shaker

Ralph2 wrote:
Before you criticize other people's beliefs look at your own first.

Always good advice.

Quote:
Like thinking that murder is normal.

Where have I said that?

Quote:
You are not in a position to critique Cymru when you have some unusual beliefs as well.

Such as?
Ketty

Ralph2 wrote:
I will be more vigilant in checking it in the future.


Yep, I think you should take your own advice.  

"Ralph" I don't think anyone should trust your word on who and who is not "Christian", but you do love to set yourself up as some sort of X Factor judge (geddit?!).  As Lexi said, we should look to ourselves first.
Derek

Ketty wrote:
Ralph2 wrote:
I will be more vigilant in checking it in the future.


Yep, I think you should take your own advice.  

"Ralph" I don't think anyone should trust your word on who and who is not "Christian", but you do love to set yourself up as some sort of X Factor judge (geddit?!).  As Lexi said, we should look to ourselves first.


Wrong again. Lexi said

Quote:
Thank you - but perhaps we are all better at spotting our own failings than those of others


She was referring to what I said. Maybe she sees her own faults better then I would. Happy to put you right, Again  

Quote:
"Ralph" I don't think anyone should trust your word on who and who is not "Christian"

Well that comes as no surprise. I did a pretty good job in discovering that you are no more a Christian then a Buddhist is.
Quote:

but you do love to set yourself up as some sort of X Factor judge (geddit?!).

No, I am a Christian. We are taught not to judge. If you were a Christian you would know that.
Derek

Shaker

Quote:
Quote:
Like thinking that murder is normal.

Where have I said that?

On that massive thread that you kept going for ever. You said that everything is natural. I ask if murder was natural. You said Yes

Quote:
Quote:
You are not in a position to critique Cymru when you have some unusual beliefs as well.

Such as?

When you said that murder is natural
trentvoyager

Quote:
When you said that murder is natural


Of course it's natural.

It's not the norm, it's not desirable - but it is natural.
Derek

trentvoyager wrote:
Quote:
When you said that murder is natural


Of course it's natural.

It's not the norm, it's not desirable - but it is natural.


There we are then. It might be in the animal kingdom but so is cannibalism. For us children of God it is not natural.
Leonard James

Ralph2 wrote:
trentvoyager wrote:
Quote:
When you said that murder is natural


Of course it's natural.

It's not the norm, it's not desirable - but it is natural.


There we are then. It might be in the animal kingdom but so is cannibalism. For us children of God it is not natural.


It is perfectly natural, Ralph ... it's part of the survival instinct. I'm sure there are examples of you "children of God" committing murder somewhere ... but I can't be bothered to look.
Ketty

Ralph2 wrote:
Before you criticize other people's beliefs look at your own first.


It's definitely a good idea to examine one's own behaviour before 'throwing' Scripture at people in a way that demonstrates that you don't believe it applies to you.
gone

deleted
Shaker

Ralph2 wrote:
Shaker

Quote:
Quote:
Like thinking that murder is normal.

Where have I said that?

On that massive thread that you kept going for ever. You said that everything is natural. I ask if murder was natural. You said Yes

Quote:
Quote:
You are not in a position to critique Cymru when you have some unusual beliefs as well.

Such as?

When you said that murder is natural

Notice the quick - so quick that I'm sure you hoped it wouldn't be noticed - switch from natural to normal?
Leonard James

Floo wrote:
Deliberate killing on the part of the deity seemed very natural to it, as it did to some of its followers!


If only these religios wouldn't take the fairy story so seriously, and just concentrated on the good advice it contains, their lives would be a lot simpler and happier.
Derek

Leonard James wrote:
Ralph2 wrote:
trentvoyager wrote:
Quote:
When you said that murder is natural


Of course it's natural.

It's not the norm, it's not desirable - but it is natural.


There we are then. It might be in the animal kingdom but so is cannibalism. For us children of God it is not natural.


It is perfectly natural, Ralph ... it's part of the survival instinct. I'm sure there are examples of you "children of God" committing murder somewhere ... but I can't be bothered to look.


It may be natural, or normal, in the animal kingdom for survival. It is not a requirement for humans beings to kill each other, therefore, it is neither natural or the norm. Mark Hoffman was a dyed in the wool Bishop in the Mormon church who killed three people to shut them up. He did it as a result of greed. He succumbed to the enticing of Satan. All Christians know that Satan's way is neither normal or natural. Mark Hoffman sits in jail now knowing that he allowed himself to be influenced by Satan. It is not natural for us to be greedy. We are children of God created in his image. You may not believe that but I do. We are not a part of the animal kingdom we are the offspring of deity.
Derek

Ketty wrote:
Ralph2 wrote:
Before you criticize other people's beliefs look at your own first.


It's definitely a good idea to examine one's own behaviour before 'throwing' Scripture at people in a way that demonstrates that you don't believe it applies to you.


Show me where I have intimated that I do not believe it applies to me.
Derek

Floo wrote:
Deliberate killing on the part of the deity seemed very natural to it, as it did to some of its followers!


That is man who was doing the killing, not God. Men who had succumbed to the enticing of Satan. That does not make it natural.
Derek

Shaker wrote:
Ralph2 wrote:
Shaker

Quote:
Quote:
Like thinking that murder is normal.

Where have I said that?

On that massive thread that you kept going for ever. You said that everything is natural. I ask if murder was natural. You said Yes

Quote:
Quote:
You are not in a position to critique Cymru when you have some unusual beliefs as well.

Such as?

When you said that murder is natural

Notice the quick - so quick that I'm sure you hoped it wouldn't be noticed - switch from natural to normal?


Just put it down to my poor education and horrendous use of the English language.

It is, once again, very telling that you should think that someone would deliberately change natural to normal.
Derek

Leonard James wrote:
Floo wrote:
Deliberate killing on the part of the deity seemed very natural to it, as it did to some of its followers!


If only these religios wouldn't take the fairy story so seriously, and just concentrated on the good advice it contains, their lives would be a lot simpler and happier.


That is easy to say, however, did you ever receive the email from PP's family thanking you for being the only one who showed any concern. I bet not. It would be the none believer that would have blocked it from you and not anyone who believes in the fairy story.
Leonard James

Ralph2 wrote:

It may be natural, or normal, in the animal kingdom for survival. It is not a requirement for humans beings to kill each other, therefore, it is neither natural or the norm. Mark Hoffman was a dyed in the wool Bishop in the Mormon church who killed three people to shut them up. He did it as a result of greed. He succumbed to the enticing of Satan. All Christians know that Satan's way is neither normal or natural. Mark Hoffman sits in jail now knowing that he allowed himself to be influenced by Satan. It is not natural for us to be greedy. We are children of God created in his image. You may not believe that but I do. We are not a part of the animal kingdom we are the offspring of deity.


I  see no point in continuing this, Ralph. You believe that humans are not just another species of animal, whereas I believe they are, so we have no common ground to argue on.
Shaker

Ralph2 wrote:
Just put it down to my poor education and horrendous use of the English language.

It is, once again, very telling that you should think that someone would deliberately change natural to normal.

I think it because someone has - you. In the aforementioned thread you made it quite clear that you don't really have that much of a grasp on the concepts of natural/unnatural and normal/abnormal. Didn't you admit that according to your definition, the wearing of earrings is, according to you, abnormal or something of that kind?

ETA: So you did:
Ralph2 wrote:
Yes, I would say that piercing ones earlobes for no other reason than vanity is abnormal. Earlobes are not meant to have holes in them.
Leonard James

Ralph2 wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
Floo wrote:
Deliberate killing on the part of the deity seemed very natural to it, as it did to some of its followers!


If only these religios wouldn't take the fairy story so seriously, and just concentrated on the good advice it contains, their lives would be a lot simpler and happier.


That is easy to say, however, did you ever receive the email from PP's family thanking you for being the only one who showed any concern. I bet not. It would be the none believer that would have blocked it from you and not anyone who believes in the fairy story.


I don't see what you are getting at. It is not necessary to believe in "God" to feel sympathy and empathise with somebody in trouble.
Derek

Leonard James wrote:
Ralph2 wrote:

It may be natural, or normal, in the animal kingdom for survival. It is not a requirement for humans beings to kill each other, therefore, it is neither natural or the norm. Mark Hoffman was a dyed in the wool Bishop in the Mormon church who killed three people to shut them up. He did it as a result of greed. He succumbed to the enticing of Satan. All Christians know that Satan's way is neither normal or natural. Mark Hoffman sits in jail now knowing that he allowed himself to be influenced by Satan. It is not natural for us to be greedy. We are children of God created in his image. You may not believe that but I do. We are not a part of the animal kingdom we are the offspring of deity.


I  see no point in continuing this, Ralph. You believe that humans are not just another species of animal, whereas I believe they are, so we have no common ground to argue on.


You are absolutely right Leonard. We both believe in different things so the inevitable outcome will be an argument and not a debate. I have always seen you as a very wise person and this post vindicates my belief. As I have always said, you are a prime example of a outstanding atheist and have always commanded my respect and adoration.
trentvoyager

Quote:
12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.



Genesis.

Murder appears to come perfectly naturally to the deity.....and hey, if its good enough for God............
Derek

Leonard James wrote:
Ralph2 wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
Floo wrote:
Deliberate killing on the part of the deity seemed very natural to it, as it did to some of its followers!


If only these religios wouldn't take the fairy story so seriously, and just concentrated on the good advice it contains, their lives would be a lot simpler and happier.


That is easy to say, however, did you ever receive the email from PP's family thanking you for being the only one who showed any concern. I bet not. It would be the none believer that would have blocked it from you and not anyone who believes in the fairy story.


I don't see what you are getting at. It is not necessary to believe in "God" to feel sympathy and empathise with somebody in trouble.


I mention this because I know for an absolute certainty that PP and his family desperately tried to contact you. It might have made a difference to PP if his last attempt to contact you, via members, would have been successful. It would have been nice for the family to have known that you received their email expressing their gratitude to you. It is not necessary for one to believe in God to feel sympathy and empathise with someone in trouble. You have made that abundantly obvious. What is quite moving is that the initial PM that was sent was sent to around ten people. You were the only one who reacted to it. That puts you head and shoulders above anyone else on that forum and tells me that you should spend more time here then over there so that we can enjoy your opinions. I do not have that email but I will try and get it from his family. That is all I was trying to say.
Derek

trentvoyager wrote:
Quote:
12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.



Genesis.

Miurder appears to come perfectly naturally to the deity.....and hey, if its good enough for God............


You have a very limited knowledge of scripture or a limited understanding of the nature and character of God. These people had been warned many many times to get their act together. They were told that if they didn't then they would all be destroyed. My personal belief is that God's hands were tied on this one. A universal law came into force when wickedness became so bad that it had to be irradiated. These people effectively commuted suicide. Keep the commandments or suffer the consequences.
Derek

Shaker wrote:
Ralph2 wrote:
Just put it down to my poor education and horrendous use of the English language.

It is, once again, very telling that you should think that someone would deliberately change natural to normal.

I think it because someone has - you. In the aforementioned thread you made it quite clear that you don't really have that much of a grasp on the concepts of natural/unnatural and normal/abnormal. Didn't you admit that according to your definition, the wearing of earrings is, according to you, abnormal or something of that kind?

ETA: So you did:
Ralph2 wrote:
Yes, I would say that piercing ones earlobes for no other reason than vanity is abnormal. Earlobes are not meant to have holes in them.


Very true. I do not believe that pushing spikes through the flesh of the ears is a natural thing to do. If you read the scriptures we are told that the body is the temple of God and that body should not be defiled. That being the case, to pierce it's surface with earrings is also abnormal. God set the definition of natural and normality not man
trentvoyager

Quote:
Keep the commandments or suffer the consequences.


Surely God should lead by example.

I mean "Thou shalt not Kill"

Another religious type not so keen on consistency.
trentvoyager

Quote:
My personal belief is that God's hands were tied on this one


Who was this person tying God's hands - is God so powerless that he cannot resist the idea to murder?

Keep the commandments or suffer the consequences.

God didn't keep the commandments.

Perhaps he was committing suicide?    
Shaker

Ralph2 wrote:
My personal belief is that God's hands were tied on this one.

So God isn't omnipotent, then?
Derek

Shaker wrote:
Ralph2 wrote:
My personal belief is that God's hands were tied on this one.

So God isn't omnipotent, then?


God knows everything that can be known. God can do anything that can be done. As I said, my opinion, of course
Derek

Shaker wrote:
Ralph2 wrote:
My personal belief is that God's hands were tied on this one.

So God isn't omnipotent, then?


God knows everything that can be known. God can do anything that can be done. As I said, my opinion, of course
Derek

trentvoyager wrote:
Quote:
Keep the commandments or suffer the consequences.


Surely God should lead by example.

I mean "Thou shalt not Kill"

Another religious type not so keen on consistency.


They commited suicide after ignoring all the warnings. They were told to comply or suffer the consequences. They ignored the warnings. Why have you ignored everything I said in my last post?

The plan of salvation is a perfect plan. It is perfectly consistent.

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