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Honey 56

A Chrtistmas thread especially for James.

QUOTE FROM JAMES
[quote]
Quote:
Romans 14:5-9
One [man] judges one day as above another; another [man] judges one day as all others; let each [man] be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day observes it to Jehovah. Also, he who eats, eats to Jehovah, for he gives thanks to God; and he who does not eat does not eat to Jehovah, and yet gives thanks to God. 7 None of us, in fact, lives with regard to himself only, and no one dies with regard to himself only; for both if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. Therefore both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah. For to this end Christ died and came to life again, that he might be Lord over both the dead and the living.

Personally I could never see why man celebrated being born imperfect, or why he should link his birth date to foretellers of events but they do because they worship the demons where as Christians are encouraged not to get associated with demonic practises are they not?


I am so sorry that I did not quote James in full, so I will ammend here.....

Quote:
The thing to celebrate about the Christ is his successful life, and his faithful sacrifice.
Jesus instituted the memorial of his death, and it is possible to know the exact time and day on which to commemorate it.
Even with all those facts some have managed to deform that festival and make more of it than Jesus instituted did they not?


Well we are all entitled to our opinion James, and if you choose not to celebrate your birthday, that is your choice and good for you.
Personally I am like the Queen I now have two birthdays, the day that my mother brought me into the world, and to her I will always be grateful, not only for giving birth to me, but for doing the very best job she could to raise me, and to keep me safe.
My other and much more important birthday I celebrate on September 15th, this is my 'born again' birthday, the day  that I decided to give my life back to Him who it truly belongs to, my Lord and Saviour The Messiah Yeshua, who gave His life as a sin offering for my sorry, sinful life and now as a result of this, I am a daughter of the living God, loved, forgiven, adopted into His family and assured of a glorious future.
And all of this not because of anything that I have done, no I could never have earned or deserved this gift, but rather through the grace of YHWH, through Messiah Yeshua, I am reconciled back to my father in Heaven, and as He has promised He now lives with me, yes little old me!
And I say Hallelujah and thank you Lord, unashamedly and thankfully for a life restored to how it should be.

Who wouldn't want to celebrate that?

You are correct, Christian are warned against being associated with demonic practices.

So in view of this, could you please explain to us all why you would be involved with an organisation that was founded by Taze Russel, who was not only heavily influenced by 'pyramidology' but also spiritism? as was their New World Translation of the scriptures.



And now perhaps James will stop disrupting the other thread.

Honey  
Jim

Re: A Chrtistmas thread especially for James.

Hi, Honey:
Of course Russell's little pixies weren't always killjoys!

It is claimed that in 1919 Jesus chose the Watchtower Society to be his sole channel for salvation, based on it being the only Organization teaching and practicing truth. Yet numerous practiced of 1919 are now considered to be pagan. This makes mockery of any claim that the Organization had special standing in Jesus' eyes in 1919.
The Bible Students actively engaged in and even promoted celebrating Christmas, birthdays and Mothers Day until well after 1919. These were thought out apparently under the guidance of Holy Spirit and explained as acceptable. Now the same Holy Spirit has dictated that they are to be considered pagan or creature worship and those that participate are described as 'ignorant' Christmas.
"When Jehovah's Witnesses cast aside religious teachings that had pagan roots, they also quit sharing in many customs that were similarly tainted. But for a time, certain holidays were not given the careful scrutiny that they needed. One of these was Christmas." Jehovah's Witnesses - Proclaimers of God's Kingdom p.198
Bible Students celebrated Christmas well after they were 'cleansed' in 1919. The discussion of this in the Proclaimers book lets one draw the conclusion that this was a pagan celebration inherited from Christendom, but subsequently discarded once properly considered. Yet Jehovah's Slave had considered Christmas and not only concluded that it was acceptable for Christians but promoted it as "of the greatest importance."
Honey 56

New Old, New Light Jim?  

Honey
Jim

airy lights?

Er...
Fairy lights?
 
Jim

You'd have thought the invisible Jesus who returned in 1914 was powerful enough to purge his faithful slave instantly.
Apparently not.

Still, I'm not bothered about old, new, neon or blue light - the only one I;m interested in is the One described in John 1:1-18
And He doesn't change.
Paul

Why do we celebrate the Nativity? It's linked to the celebration of the Annunciation, that is, we celebrate our salvation, Christ, entering the world. Rejoice!
Honey 56

Paul wrote:
Why do we celebrate the Nativity? It's linked to the celebration of the Annunciation, that is, we celebrate our salvation, Christ, entering the world. Rejoice!


I had to look this one up?
The annunciation, the announcement of the Incarnation (Is that correct)

Well it certainly is something to celebrate and to rejoice about!.

And a precedent was set by the shepherds and the magi, who visited the Christ child, gave Him gifts and worshipped Him.

Honey
Honey 56

Jim wrote:
You'd have thought the invisible Jesus who returned in 1914 was powerful enough to purge his faithful slave instantly.
Apparently not.

Still, I'm not bothered about old, new, neon or blue light - the only one I;m interested in is the One described in John 1:1-18
And He doesn't change.


Yes Jim,
The light of the world.
And the lamb who takes away the sins of the world.

Honey  
Honey 56

Quote:
By James Jah
The thing to celebrate about the Christ is his successful life, and his faithful sacrifice.
Jesus instituted the memorial of his death, and it is possible to know the exact time and day on which to commemorate it.
Even with all those facts some have managed to deform that festival and make more of it than Jesus instituted did they not?


Yes it is James, but could you please supply the scripture that dictates that only 144,000 self professed elite J.W's should partake of His supper.

Messiah Yeshua's command concerning this was very simple.
"Do this in remembrance of me, as often as you meet together" and until we take it together with Him again, in His Kingdom.

Not once a year and  not just by a chosen few.

The Apostles had the correct interpretation, they broke bread when they met in the believer's homes, the only stipulation being that they partook with a good conscience before YHWH and in an orderly and respectful manner.
We should also bare in mind that Yeshua was celebrating the feast of the passover with His disciples and so the bread and wine, whilst being the emblems which He chose for us to remember Him by, were only one part of the meal. They were remembering a time when YHWH liberated His people from slavery and repression.
The Messiah Yeshua was about to do the same thing.

Honey
Jim

Yes.
In the Didache, a document written mostly between 60-80 AD ( before some of the NT, and at one time PART of the NT),describing Christian Worship in the first century, it makes specific reference to the breaking of bread as part of the agape.
You'd think that the WTBTS would welcome this first century confirmation, wouldn't you?
After all, they want to be "first century Christians".
Bit inconvenient, then?
Jim

It should be noteworthy, given the 'Jewish bias' in Matthew, that the wise men WORSHIPPED Jesus.
(Note: the following text is taken from Matthew 2 in a reputable translation which is attested by qualified experts, namely the NLT)

2 Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the reign of King Herod. About that time some wise men[ a. ] from eastern lands arrived in Jerusalem, asking, 2 “Where is the newborn king of the Jews? We saw his star as it rose,[ b. ] and we have come to worship him.”
3 King Herod was deeply disturbed when he heard this, as was everyone in Jerusalem. 4 He called a meeting of the leading priests and teachers of religious law and asked, “Where is the Messiah supposed to be born?”
5 “In Bethlehem in Judea,” they said, “for this is what the prophet wrote:
6 ‘And you, O Bethlehem in the land of Judah,
are not least among the ruling cities[ c. ] of Judah,
for a ruler will come from you
who will be the shepherd for my people Israel.’[ d. ]”
7 Then Herod called for a private meeting with the wise men, and he learned from them the time when the star first appeared. 8 Then he told them, “Go to Bethlehem and search carefully for the child. And when you find him, come back and tell me so that I can go and worship him, too!”
9 After this interview the wise men went their way. And the star they had seen in the east guided them to Bethlehem. It went ahead of them and stopped over the place where the child was. 10 When they saw the star, they were filled with joy! 11 They entered the house and saw the child with his mother, Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasure chests and gave him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh.
bnabernard

It's strange innit, the people of Bethlehem were a frugal people who were influenced by the Essenes of Qumaran, yet they brought precious goods that were frowned upon by those who were infliuenced by a strict order that shunned the things of the world.

bernard (hug)
Honey 56

Jim,
The JW's are taught the the Magi were sent by satan and so (according to the WTBTS ) they should not give much consideration to what the Magi did. However, they forget to mention the bit in the account when the Magi, after being warned in a dream, and not wishing to lead Herod to this precious child, went back a different way on their return journey and so avoided telling herod where He could be found.

This is the New World Translation (there own version).....…
.11And when they went into the house they saw the young child with Mary its mother, and, falling down, they did *obeisance to it.

As you can see, they cannot bring themselves to use the word *‘worship’
Although to be fair, they can't really because they are only too aware that, only YHWH derserves our worship doesn't He?

However when we look at the Greek scripture we find….

*proskuneó: to do reverence to
Original Word: προσκυνέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proskuneó
Phonetic Spelling: (pros-koo-neh'-o)
Short Definition: I worship
Definition: I go down on my knees to, do obeisance to, worship.


The lengths they will go to, to deceieve!

Honey
Jim

Honey;
Yes, this is yet another obfuscation on behalf of the mistranslators of the NWT.
The same word used for 'worshipped' in Matthew, is also found in the Greek translation - the Septuagint - where it refers to God (YHWH) and God alone. It is also the same word used in Revelation.
I remember having a debate with Letusreason and Widenout on the topic of satan inspiring the wise men.
Since Matthew's account mentions no such thing, it is obviously yet another scripture-twist by Brooklyn Big Brother. Lur's arguments were waek and inconsequential, and he resorted to the usual tactic of changing the subject when he knew there wasn't a hope of winning it.
I wonder if history will repeat itself on this forum?
Jim

Bernie:
And your evidence that the Essenes - a cloistered, insular community - influenced the people of Bethlehem is.....?
Honey 56

Jim wrote:
Bernie:
And your evidence that the Essenes - a cloistered, insular community - influenced the people of Bethlehem is.....?


The Magi who brought the gifts were from the East and a different Country anyway, so nothing to do with Bethlehem the Essenes or Jeruslam as far as I can see from the scripture?

Bernard, do you suppose that Mary and Joseph  should have refused these gifts? Is there any evidence that Yeshua's earthly parents were Essennes?

Honey
Jim

Yes.
Most modern scholars would suggest that the magi were Zoroastrian, though I have seen articles suggesting they might have been followers of Mithras - but I think this is unlikely, given the warlike nature of the Mithraic vult.
Either way, there is no reason whatsoever to suggest satan had a hand in it.
On the contrary, I think it is most telling that the first people to openly worship the Messiah, God Incarnate, were GENTILES!
Given the nature of symbolism and actions having equal prominance with words in a semi-literate culture, I think we underestimate God's actions in showing that this very special child would be the Saviour of the world, and not one small part of it.
bnabernard

The Essenes were a Holy order of monks, that is they did not marry, and there site at qumaran sugest's that Joseph would have had some influence on him from the Essene teaching, a frugal people who were not subject to the laws of moses as in the way that the Jews were of of the temple,
It would be fitting that an Essene who felt the need to be less monastic would move to MCarmel where the Nazerens a reported branch of the Essene sect were given in marridge but still helld to the teachings familiarly given to Abrahamby the sect led by Melechizedeck.

The Nazerene were taught from birth of the things of God and it would not be suprising for a child to know more than those who attended the temple, however they were a sect despised by the temple priests, and as they would say, nothing good comes out of Nazereth.They felt that the good was in thier hands, and that they were the appointed of God, there good however was to make bonds of enslavement through laws and traditions which kept them fat.

bernard (hug)
Honey 56

Dear Jim,
On a seperate note, I know it is a right royal pain for you, and I shouldn't say this, but it is nice when you are snowed in (although I hope it doesn't last too long), Scotland's loss is our gain, it's great to see you posting a bit more! and the cards can wait for another day!  

Honey
Jim

Bernie;
Speaking with my historian's hat on, there are a lot of "would haves" and "might haves" in your speculation. That cannot be taken as historical evidence that the Essenes did influence either the inhabitants of Nazereth, Galilee or Bethlehem.
I have seen arguments that the Essenes influenced the zealots, a party particularly influencial in the district - but again, no historical evidence connects them. Indeed, seemingly, the Essenes were somewhat pacifist in outlook, in sharp contrast to the zealots.
Jim

Honey;
Please note.
as far as I'm concerned, the word 'card' is now declared blasphemous.
Honey 56

Jim wrote:
Honey;
Please note.
as far as I'm concerned, the word 'card' is now declared blasphemous.


Oh dear, that bad?

what about  sn-w ? can we mention the white stuff.

"I'm dreaming of a white Christmas"  

Oh that's the other thread innit?

bnabernard

Jim wrote:
Bernie;
Speaking with my historian's hat on, there are a lot of "would haves" and "might haves" in your speculation. That cannot be taken as historical evidence that the Essenes did influence either the inhabitants of Nazereth, Galilee or Bethlehem.
I have seen arguments that the Essenes influenced the zealots, a party particularly influencial in the district - but again, no historical evidence connects them. Indeed, seemingly, the Essenes were somewhat pacifist in outlook, in sharp contrast to the zealots.


Yes the Essene's were pacifist's and vegetarian and did not hold with the blood sacrifices of the temple, another reason they were detested by the temple priests, and yes there are/is much speculation arround the Essenes much of it comming from the Judaic scholars who spent a great deal of effort in denying them any temple rites or assossiation.

The Nazerene northern sect of the Essenes were again a vegetarian non blood sacrifice etc but were that of the sect that again peacful and by nature put under the sword rather than over it, they resided on and about Mt Carmel the Holy mountain im tents, something quite handy for Joseph when the time came for the census as the, what, 150-200 odd miles journey would require (especialy in desert at night) some form of habitation with a pregnant women on the verge.

If I might while it comes to mind mention the circumsm which would not be part of the Nazerene way, and how the teaching given by Yeshua and his followers that a circusim of the flesh need not be a part of what made a person a son of God but that the circumsism of the heart, and subsequently Puals teaching of that vein following his going to one or the other of the eseene sects for teaching of the Nazerene way of Yeshua.
Also the link to Melechizedeck who taught Abram.

You see there is quite a lot to cover and on a com that keeps freezing it sometimes gets hard.

However I'll rest at that for now cos I will just keep on and the question at the end will still be the same (laughing)

bernard (hug)
gone

Honey 56 wrote:
Paul wrote:
Why do we celebrate the Nativity? It's linked to the celebration of the Annunciation, that is, we celebrate our salvation, Christ, entering the world. Rejoice!


I had to look this one up?
The annunciation, the announcement of the Incarnation (Is that correct)

Well it certainly is something to celebrate and to rejoice about!.

And a precedent was set by the shepherds and the magi, who visited the Christ child, gave Him gifts and worshipped Him.

Honey


Do you really believe the 'pretty' nativity tale actually happened? I suspect the real circumstances of the guy's conception and birth were much more sordid and down to earth.
Jim

Yep.
Firstly, Bernie, I would say that nothing 'influenced' Yeshua - as God Incarnate, how could it?
Secondly, you are right in the description of the Jewish authorities detestation of the Essenes - and, for that matter, throw in the Samaritans and zealots as well.
However, again, there is no evidence that the Essenes took in guests in the medieval Christian monastic sense. The excavations at the sites available didn't suggest any specific area set aside for guests, and the Dead Sea Scrolls are ambivolent on the matter, while giving instructions on the treatment of strangers, they don't suggest a system of an alternative to inns.
So all we have is speculation. It is interesting to speculate, but inadvisable to accept such speculation as history.
Jim

Honey;
NO SNOW!!!!!!
The long cane will therefore, be perfectly OK...
however, the pouring rain will soak my important little places, and I'm delicate, so I'm staying in today.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it...
bnabernard

Jim wrote:
Yep.
Firstly, Bernie, I would say that nothing 'influenced' Yeshua - as God Incarnate, how could it?
Secondly, you are right in the description of the Jewish authorities detestation of the Essenes - and, for that matter, throw in the Samaritans and zealots as well.
However, again, there is no evidence that the Essenes took in guests in the medieval Christian monastic sense. The excavations at the sites available didn't suggest any specific area set aside for guests, and the Dead Sea Scrolls are ambivolent on the matter, while giving instructions on the treatment of strangers, they don't suggest a system of an alternative to inns.
So all we have is speculation. It is interesting to speculate, but inadvisable to accept such speculation as history.


Quite right Jim, not sure though what guests have to do with anything they were (the Qumaran's) quite a seculer lot, however they were not of the order that once a Essene of Qumaran always an Essene of Qumaran and there is speculation (if you prefer the word) that the father of Joseph was of the Qumaran order and natrualy when the time of choice came he chose the style of the Nazerene with marridge and children though he prctised in bethlehem another poor, or shall we say (or not your choice) frugal people influenced by the teachings of the Essene.
As to whether Joseph went to nazereth of his own of of himself seems to be in that he was unmarried, therefore it's quite reasoonable to say that Joseph was born in Bethlehem and moved to Nazereth with his parents.

Mary however was born in Nazereth and the understanding that the young girl of prophesy would come from Nazereth was part of the teaching of preparing the way of the Lord.
Speculation can be found in the teachings of Yahshua which when examined fall into line with the nazerene way.
There are many sites to be found regarding Essene Nazerene teaching some Kosher some not so Kosher, I've yet to check on them all but as the Jew and the christian have certainly made a b*lls up of getting anything right, and there are so many options for a new commer to God in that field, then lets not expect to much less from any other group which has encouraged imitation.
and thats no suposition is it  mr presbyter (smile)

But there you go and there we are worshiping a man who died on the cross, do you realy know why?

bernard (hug)
Honey 56

Hi Bernard,
Messiah Yeshua was presented at the temple at eight days old as is the custom and according to scripture for circumcision, would that disqualify Him and His earthly parents from being Nazarenes?

Honey
Powwow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldgh4jS6Rqs
Honey 56

Pleinmont wrote:
Honey 56 wrote:
Paul wrote:
Why do we celebrate the Nativity? It's linked to the celebration of the Annunciation, that is, we celebrate our salvation, Christ, entering the world. Rejoice!


I had to look this one up?
The annunciation, the announcement of the Incarnation (Is that correct)

Well it certainly is something to celebrate and to rejoice about!.

And a precedent was set by the shepherds and the magi, who visited the Christ child, gave Him gifts and worshipped Him.

Honey


Do you really believe the 'pretty' nativity tale actually happened? I suspect the real circumstances of the guy's conception and birth were much more sordid and down to earth.


Well I wouldn't describe it as 'pretty' exactly, but I see no reason to disbelieve the biblical account.
A great deal of what we believe as Christians is taken on faith, but a great deal is being proven by archeological finds, ancient writings etc.

Perhaps what you believe about the Messiah's conception, says more about you, personally I would never describe the start of any life as sordid, to me it is  miraculous, but even more so in the miracle that is the Immanuel, or God with us.

Honey
bnabernard

Honey 56 wrote:
Hi Bernard,
Messiah Yeshua was presented at the temple at eight days old as is the custom and according to scripture for circumcision, would that disqualify Him and His earthly parents from being Nazarenes?

Honey


No, but it would not be a neccessity, however there is debate as to whether Yeshua was given over to circumsim of the flesh as such would not be a requirement of the saviour who would teach circumsism of the heart and a moving away from the rules of the priests of the temple.

Again it would not be a requirement of a Nazerene to atend the passover unless they had a history of being a part of the passover.

Many bibs and bobs were different just as they were for those who remained with Melechizedeck who was before Abraham.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Honey 56 wrote:
Hi Bernard,
Messiah Yeshua was presented at the temple at eight days old as is the custom and according to scripture for circumcision, would that disqualify Him and His earthly parents from being Nazarenes?

Honey


No, but it would not be a neccessity, however there is debate as to whether Yeshua was given over to circumsim of the flesh as such would not be a requirement of the saviour who would teach circumsism of the heart and a moving away from the rules of the priests of the temple.

Again it would not be a requirement of a Nazerene to atend the passover unless they had a history of being a part of the passover.

Many bibs and bobs were different just as they were for those who remained with Melechizedeck who was before Abraham.

bernard (hug)


Genesis 17
11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant.

LeClerc
bnabernard

And?

Do you know why there was such animosity between the Nazerene's and the Priests of the people who were led out of Egypt.?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
And?

Do you know why there was such animosity between the Nazerene's and the Priests of the people who were led out of Egypt.?

bernard (hug)


Can you please define Nazarene from the Tanakh ?

LeClerc
bnabernard

LeClerc wrote:
Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
And?

Do you know why there was such animosity between the Nazerene's and the Priests of the people who were led out of Egypt.?

bernard (hug)


Can you please define Nazarene from the Tanakh ?

LeClerc


Are they in the tanakah, I know mention of Melechizedeck who of course would not have been circumsised, who was before Abram, have you any reference that might be worth my looking up.
Again I am not refering to the temple nazerites who were meat eaters and took part in the passover with the sacrificial lamb and other blood sacrifices.

bernard (hug)
Jim

Bernie:
What 'debate'?
Jesus was circumcised like any other male child. Had he not been, you can be sure we'd have known about it.
For starters he would have been ostracised from normal society - as would his parents. You can bet that Joseph could never have made a living as a carpenter in such a society.
And you're speculating again. There is no evidence that Joseph was a Nazerene in the classic O.T. meaning of the term; indeed, when Jesus got up to speak in the synagogue, the onlyremark was "Isn't he the son of Joseph the carpenter?" - the real stramash was when He claimed to be the fulfillment - which He was - of Messianic prophesy.
Honey 56

bnabernard wrote:
Honey 56 wrote:
Hi Bernard,
Messiah Yeshua was presented at the temple at eight days old as is the custom and according to scripture for circumcision, would that disqualify Him and His earthly parents from being Nazarenes?

Honey


No, but it would not be a neccessity, however there is debate as to whether Yeshua was given over to circumsim of the flesh as such would not be a requirement of the saviour who would teach circumsism of the heart and a moving away from the rules of the priests of the temple.

bernard (hug)


The scriptures says that Messiah Yeshua was presented at the temple at eight days old, according to the custom....

On the eighth day, when it was time to circumcise him, he was named Jesus, the name the angel had given him before he had been conceived.
Luke 2.

If it wasn't mentioned in the scriptures I would say that this was up for debate, but as it is specifically mentioned, I personally would say that it is not.

Honey
bnabernard

Jim wrote:
Bernie:
What 'debate'?
Jesus was circumcised like any other male child. Had he not been, you can be sure we'd have known about it.
For starters he would have been ostracised from normal society - as would his parents. You can bet that Joseph could never have made a living as a carpenter in such a society.
And you're speculating again. There is no evidence that Joseph was a Nazerene in the classic O.T. meaning of the term; indeed, when Jesus got up to speak in the synagogue, the onlyremark was "Isn't he the son of Joseph the carpenter?" - the real stramash was when He claimed to be the fulfillment - which He was - of Messianic prophesy.


There you go Jim making assumptions expecting the Nazerene to be mentioned in the old test which was dedicated to the people who would follow Abram and in turn Moses.
The old test was for the benefit of the jews (as you and I know them without the specifics of Leclerc)
Melechizedeck of course was not of the priesthood of the old test and as to where and who his people are then they are not recorded in the OT.
But and this is the important specific, Yeshua was said to be of the order of Melechizedeck, not of the order of the judaic temple and the customs of said temple.

Now you say that Joseph would have been ostracised etc, however the order of Melechizedeck would not have been ostracised, they would however of been envied and with jealousy comes the old green eyed god who finds fault at any cost.
The order of Melechizedeck would be an order that was not under the law of Moses yet they would worship the same God and have the same expectency.
So though the priests of the temple did aall they could against the Essenes and the Nazerenes they were helpless untill the temple and priest's got the sack anyhow.
When they rejected the teachings brought to them by the expected messiah, the son of God, they cooked their goose because the son came to loose them from the bonds of the temple priests and bring the people to the true word of God, which they were not getting from the temple priests.

bernard (hug)
Powwow

Bna,I know why Christ never backed away from confronting the priests or Pharisees. Jesus' conflict with them was because they represented a corrupted system of beliefs. Christ offered forgiveness and instant justification for the believing sinner. The priests had invented a system of works and ceremonies that made justification a human work.

"And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness."   Malachi 3:3
gone

Honey 56 wrote:
Pleinmont wrote:
Honey 56 wrote:
Paul wrote:
Why do we celebrate the Nativity? It's linked to the celebration of the Annunciation, that is, we celebrate our salvation, Christ, entering the world. Rejoice!


I had to look this one up?
The annunciation, the announcement of the Incarnation (Is that correct)

Well it certainly is something to celebrate and to rejoice about!.

And a precedent was set by the shepherds and the magi, who visited the Christ child, gave Him gifts and worshipped Him.

Honey


Do you really believe the 'pretty' nativity tale actually happened? I suspect the real circumstances of the guy's conception and birth were much more sordid and down to earth.


Well I wouldn't describe it as 'pretty' exactly, but I see no reason to disbelieve the biblical account.
A great deal of what we believe as Christians is taken on faith, but a great deal is being proven by archeological finds, ancient writings etc.

Perhaps what you believe about the Messiah's conception, says more about you, personally I would never describe the start of any life as sordid, to me it is  miraculous, but even more so in the miracle that is the Immanuel, or God with us.

Honey


I reckon that Mary, who was likely to have been a young teenager, was made pregnant in the usual way by Joseph or another, with or without her consent. The highly fanciful conception and nativity stories were created a long time after Jesus was dead and gone, imo.

Anyway if people enjoy believing in the unbelievable, that isn't a problem providing they realise it is only a belief, and don't try to force that belief on others as a fact.
Honey 56

pow wow wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldgh4jS6Rqs


Thank you for this link PowWow, it is so beautiful.

Jim was saying today about Messiah Yeshua coming to save the entire world and that it was no coincidence that the very first people to see Him and worship Him were not Hebrews but people from the other nations.

I don't know this song and didn't understand the words, but that doesn't matter the feeling of love for Messiah Yeshua in this song is universal.

Honey  
bnabernard

pow wow wrote:
Bna,I know why Christ never backed away from confronting the priests or Pharisees. Jesus' conflict with them was because they represented a corrupted system of beliefs. Christ offered forgiveness and instant justification for the believing sinner. The priests had invented a system of works and ceremonies that made justification a human work.

"And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness."   Malachi 3:3


Well done pow wow, and who better to purify than the pure.

It's as I said Yeshua could hardly come from the thorn bush, he had to come from the true vine, how on earth could the teachers of error teach other than error.

Did he go to the temple to learn, hardly the people were astounded at the knowledge of this young man, did he know the scripture, yes he knew the scripture how it should be and not how it was being represented.

They learnt from him.

bernard (hug)
Jim

And you will, of course, be supplying evidence on which your thoughts are based, won't you, floo?
Powwow

"And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, 'He shall be called a Nazarene.' "   Matthew 2:23

Has nothing to do with your northern Essenes bna.
Paul

I'm sorry, but I'm going to seem like a nit-picker here, something is really vexing me. Seeing as we are all reading and writing in English, why not use "Jesus"? What's with all the "Yeshua Messiah"? I suspect it betrays a certain theological bias though I wouldn't like to second guess too much.

Anyway, it's just something which bothers me.
Farmer Geddon

Honey 56 wrote:
Hi Bernard,
Messiah Yeshua was presented at the temple at eight days old as is the custom and according to scripture for circumcision, would that disqualify Him and His earthly parents from being Nazarenes?

Honey


Yeah Yeah Yeah and the writers of "Luke" knew this how?

Let me guess: It's because it's what the Jews do?

No big surprise that Y'shuas parents being Jewish would have to follow Jewish tradition!!

To be fair the Nazorean/Nazarene/Notseri/Nazoraioi is a title, not a name, and is not likely refer to a town called Nazareth.

For example; when Paul is accused of being a Nazorean in Acts 24: 5 does that mean he came from Nazareth?

I doubt it, so to me it means he was seen as a ringleader of a certain religious sect/group.

Sorry Bern, at the time of the circumcision there was no such sect as the "Nazoraioi"

The followers of "Yeshua Christos Nazorean,” ( Yeshua meaning god’s deliverance or more simply “saviour.” “Christos” meaning messiah, and “Nazorean meaning “he who reveals what is hidden,” (from the Hebrew root “Nazar,” which means to set apart or consecrate.))

The Nazoreans were likely an ascetic sect “set apart” with special knowledge, religious purity, and asceticism, hence the accusation against Paul by Tertullus of being "a ringleader of the sect of the Nazoreans/Nazarenes.".

I've gone off in a tangent again - haven't I?





Honey 56

Paul wrote:
I'm sorry, but I'm going to seem like a nit-picker here, something is really vexing me. Seeing as we are all reading and writing in English, why not use "Jesus"? What's with all the "Yeshua Messiah"? I suspect it betrays a certain theological bias though I wouldn't like to second guess too much.

Anyway, it's just something which bothers me.


As I am one of the main offenders Paul, perhaps I can explain on a personal level.

It has bothered me for some time that the name Jesus is used as a cuss word, I was guilty of this myself before I came to know Him.
Jesus is The Messiah and His name is Yeshua, so what is it that bothers you?

Honey
Jim

Paul;
Sometimes I think that, with the accumulaation of theological baggage from Eastern, Western and later Reformed sources, we tend to lose the fact that, with the (possible) exception of Luke, all the main people in the N.T were Jews, including Jesus, the angliscised form of Yeshua. It is good to get back to the realities, and the CJB (Common Jewish Bible) while not everyone's cup of tea, certainly reminds us that the centuries have Europeanised the faith, and sometimes not for the better.
Honey 56

Farmer Geddon wrote:
Honey 56 wrote:
Hi Bernard,
Messiah Yeshua was presented at the temple at eight days old as is the custom and according to scripture for circumcision, would that disqualify Him and His earthly parents from being Nazarenes?

Honey


Yeah Yeah Yeah and the writers of "Luke" knew this how?

Let me guess: It's because it's what the Jews do?

No big surprise that Y'shuas parents being Jewish would have to follow Jewish tradition!!

To be fair the Nazorean/Nazarene/Notseri/Nazoraioi is a title, not a name, and is not likely refer to a town called Nazareth.

For example; when Paul is accused of being a Nazorean in Acts 24: 5 does that mean he came from Nazareth?

I doubt it, so to me it means he was seen as a ringleader of a certain religious sect/group.

Sorry Bern, at the time of the circumcision there was no such sect as the "Nazoraioi"

The followers of "Yeshua Christos Nazorean,” ( Yeshua meaning god’s deliverance or more simply “saviour.” “Christos” meaning messiah, and “Nazorean meaning “he who reveals what is hidden,” (from the Hebrew root “Nazar,” which means to set apart or consecrate.))

The Nazoreans were likely an ascetic sect “set apart” with special knowledge, religious purity, and asceticism, hence the accusation against Paul by Tertullus of being "a ringleader of the sect of the Nazoreans/Nazarenes.".

I've gone off in a tangent again - haven't I?











A very interesting tangent though, none the less.  
Paul

Don't worry. I just thought we were speaking English, that's all. As for the theological bias I believe it betrays, well, it's better I say nothing. Let's leave it at that, I don't want to spoil the thread.
Honey 56

Paul wrote:
Don't worry. I just thought we were speaking English, that's all. As for the theological bias I believe it betrays, well, it's better I say nothing. Let's leave it at that, I don't want to spoil the thread.


Paul,
It is really good to see you posting.

Honey  
bnabernard

Nope FG you are pretty much on target, just a shade off when it comes to the existence of the nazereon (I wish you had stuck to nazerene it's easier for this numskull to spell).

I'll stick with nazerene but the names FG uses are all OK if anybody wants to use them.

Now the reason that the nazerenes were little in evidence and the town of nazereth practically unknown is because they did not have a town, they lived in tents on and arround the Holy mountain of Carmel where the village/town of Nazereth came to be, it was not policy to build structures other than tents and the temple on the mount was a tent as well and only accessed by the hardy.

So the name as you say anyway was a title and a town later named after the people.

Now as regards to Paul/Saul, he went and learnt from the Nazoreans were it was assumed that he had had a turn arround because prior to that he Saul was a major persecuter of the Essene Nazorean sects hating them as a true pharissee would.
It is by some believed, and I count myself one of them, a ploy by Saul once rendered incapable of his normal ways, that he became a fifth colomnist and worked to bring the group down from within by finding out their hideouts following their reasonable success through Yeshua.
It was incumbent on him to do study and gain the trust of the Essene nazerene community.

At the time of the circumsism, well no there would not hardly appear to be because the Nazerenes or people of Melechizedeck had not been freed from captivity,never having been made slaves, in fact they were opposed to slavery, another aspect of Yeshua's ministry, they were incosequential as a people because they posed no threat to anybody being a people who would die rather than kill.

The last part of your post is pretty much right as Paul had been taught by the nazoreans and the early detested christians were nazoreans.

And when it comes to going off on a tangent, join the club I got fully paid up membership  


bernard (hug)
Jim

Yep!
And you're exploiting it to the full!
Speculation!
Speculation!
Speculation!
bnabernard

Paul wrote:
I'm sorry, but I'm going to seem like a nit-picker here, something is really vexing me. Seeing as we are all reading and writing in English, why not use "Jesus"? What's with all the "Yeshua Messiah"? I suspect it betrays a certain theological bias though I wouldn't like to second guess too much.

Anyway, it's just something which bothers me.


Hi Paul, still knocking the balls about, one of these days I'll have to get over there and play you for a pint.  

This ere Yeshua, or Yahshua, is brought to the table today by Mr LeClerc and not disputed by myself who is happy to use the name.
The name Jesus through the Greek translation has a rather dubious conontations as there is an indication it sails rather close to the God Zeus greek understanding, Yahshua, God with us, would more rightly be translated Yoshuah Joshua.

bernard (hug)

Hope you are keeping better than last time we spoke, Keep Finn and don't put on wieght    (bag on head)
Powwow

The notion that Nazareth did not exist during the time of Jesus is quite out of date.
Archaeologists have discovered pottery dating from the 2nd century BC through to the 4th AD on farms around Nazareth. Recently what is believed to be a Roman bath comlex has been unearthed.
Paul

bnabernard wrote:

Hi Paul, still knocking the balls about, one of these days I'll have to get over there and play you for a pint.  


Yeah, I'm playing more than ever. Ranked 78th in the country at the moment, trying hard to get into the top 64. You can come and play me any time but in return you have to tell me your fishing secrets.
Paul

Honey 56 wrote:

Paul,
It is really good to see you posting.

Honey  


bnabernard

Paul wrote:
bnabernard wrote:

Hi Paul, still knocking the balls about, one of these days I'll have to get over there and play you for a pint.  


Yeah, I'm playing more than ever. Ranked 78th in the country at the moment, trying hard to get into the top 64. You can come and play me any time but in return you have to tell me your fishing secrets.


This ole man is getting as much fishing in as he is pool these days, when I got the will I aint got the weather and when we got the weather we aint got the tide, and when everything is perfect we ain't got the time.

Must be about 15 years now since I got on the baize in competition, I wonder if I even remember how  

Now am I telling the truth or catching a mackeral  

good to see/here from you anyhow, good luck with your ambition seems only yesterday that you started playing, be proud of yourself and knock a few in for this ole reprobate.

bernard (hug)
bnabernard

Jim wrote:
Yep!
And you're exploiting it to the full!
Speculation!
Speculation!
Speculation!


Now where have I heard that before, ah athiests on christianity.  

bernard (hug)
Farmer Geddon

pow wow wrote:
The notion that Nazareth did not exist during the time of Jesus is quite out of date.
Archaeologists have discovered pottery dating from the 2nd century BC through to the 4th AD on farms around Nazareth.


Ancient times

Archaeological research has revealed that there was a funerary and cult center at Kfar HaHoresh, about two miles (3 km) from current Nazareth, dating back roughly 9000 years to the Pre-Pottery Neolithic B era.
The remains of some 65 individuals were found, buried under huge horizontal headstone structures, some of which consisted of up to 3 tons of locally produced white plaster. Decorated human skulls uncovered there have led archaeologists to believe that Kfar HaHoresh was a major cult centre in that remote era.

In 1620 the Catholic Church purchased an area in the Nazareth basin measuring approx. 100 m × 150 m (328.08 ft × 492.13 ft) on the side of the hill known as the Nebi Sa'in. This "Venerated Area" underwent extensive excavation in 1955-65 by the Franciscan priest Bellarmino Bagatti, "Director of Christian Archaeology." Fr. Bagatti uncovered pottery dating from the Middle Bronze Age (2200 to 1500 BC) and ceramics, silos and grinding mills from the Iron Age (1500 to 586 BC) which indicated substantial settlement in the Nazareth basin at that time. However, lack of archaeological evidence for Nazareth from Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Hellenistic or Early Roman times, at least in the major excavations between 1955 and 1990, shows that the settlement apparently came to an abrupt end about 720 BC, when many towns in the area were destroyed by the Assyrians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazareth

Quote:
Recently what is believed to be a Roman bath complex has been unearthed.


Which proves that the area known as Nazareth was at the time a local hub of military control from Rome. The giant bath could only have been built for a Roman city or to service a significant garrison town.

If that was so then why no mention of this fact in the Gospels?
Powwow

Luci,
Just how many military hubs in Israel at that time are mentioned in the gospels?
Christ's ministry wasn't centered in the town he was raised in, now was it.
LeClerc

Morning Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
And?

Do you know why there was such animosity between the Nazerene's and the Priests of the people who were led out of Egypt.?

bernard (hug)


Can you please define Nazarene from the Tanakh ?

LeClerc


Are they in the tanakah, I know mention of Melechizedeck who of course would not have been circumsised, who was before Abram, have you any reference that might be worth my looking up.
Again I am not refering to the temple nazerites who were meat eaters and took part in the passover with the sacrificial lamb and other blood sacrifices.

bernard (hug)


Maybe a new thread is needed here.

To begin.

Isaiah 1
8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged (Hebrew natsar) city.
and

Isaiah 11
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch (Hebrew netser) shall grow out of his roots

Netser is from the root natsar.

LeClerc
Honey 56

The only references to *Nazarene I have found in the scriptures, refer to Messiah Yeshua, for example.....

"Don't be alarmed," he said. "You are looking for Jesus the *Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him.
Mark 16


*Nazarénos: a Nazarene, an inhabitant of Nazareth
Original Word: Ναζαρηνός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: Nazarénos
Phonetic Spelling: (nad-zar-ay-nos')
Short Definition: of Nazareth
Definition: of Nazareth, a Nazarene.


compare....

21So he got up, took the child and his mother and went to the land of Israel. 22But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning in Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. Having been warned in a dream, he withdrew to the district of Galilee, 23and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets: “He will be called a Nazarene.”

Matthew 2

As far as I can see there is no other definition, unless anyone else knows any different?

Honey  
bnabernard

Luke 2:1-7
And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed. And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city. And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:) To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child. And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered. And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn

bernard (hug)
bnabernard

Maybe a new thread is needed here.

To begin.

Isaiah 1
8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged (Hebrew natsar) city.
and

Isaiah 11
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch (Hebrew netser) shall grow out of his roots

Netser is from the root natsar.

Interesting find LeClerc, any thoughts of your own to mention?

bernard (hug)
bnabernard

Quote:
Maybe a new thread is needed here.



I'm sure James won't object to me hijacking this thread where they intended to cruxify him anyway  

And I'll be darned if I got to re-cap to start another  

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Honey

Honey 56 wrote:
The only references to *Nazarene I have found in the scriptures, refer to Messiah Yeshua, for example.....

"Don't be alarmed," he said. "You are looking for Jesus the *Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him.
Mark 16


*Nazarénos: a Nazarene, an inhabitant of Nazareth
Original Word: Ναζαρηνός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: Nazarénos
Phonetic Spelling: (nad-zar-ay-nos')
Short Definition: of Nazareth
Definition: of Nazareth, a Nazarene.


compare....

21So he got up, took the child and his mother and went to the land of Israel. 22But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning in Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. Having been warned in a dream, he withdrew to the district of Galilee, 23and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets: “He will be called a Nazarene.”

Matthew 2

As far as I can see there is no other definition, unless anyone else knows any different?

Honey  


This is where I believe it is important to go back to Hebrew

Isaiah 1
8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged (Hebrew natsar) city.
and

Isaiah 11
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch (Hebrew netser) shall grow out of his roots

Netser is from the root natsar.

LeClerc
Farmer Geddon

Honey 56 wrote:
The only references to *Nazarene I have found in the scriptures, refer to Messiah Yeshua, for example.....

"Don't be alarmed," he said. "You are looking for Jesus the *Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him.
Mark 16


*Nazarénos: a Nazarene, an inhabitant of Nazareth
Original Word: Ναζαρηνός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: Nazarénos
Phonetic Spelling: (nad-zar-ay-nos')
Short Definition: of Nazareth
Definition: of Nazareth, a Nazarene.


That's interesting my versions just say "of Nazareth" Nazarénos

The only place I can specifically find "Nazarene" (as in Nazoraios) is in the one below:


Quote:
compare....

21So he got up, took the child and his mother and went to the land of Israel. 22But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning in Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. Having been warned in a dream, he withdrew to the district of Galilee, 23and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets: “He will be called a Nazarene.”

Matthew 2

As far as I can see there is no other definition, unless anyone else knows any different?

Honey  


And also in 26:71.

Both use the Greek Nazoraios

Quote:
Definition:
Nazarite = "one separated"
an inhabitant of Nazareth
a title given to Jesus in the NT
a name given to Christians by the Jews.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/nazoraios.html


The question I must now ask concerning Matt 2:23 is:

Which prophets and what exactly was said by them as is claimed here by the writer of Matthew?
bnabernard

Mostly the prophets came from the Essenes, John the bap was an example in the manner of Elijah.
I reckon they were pretty much a regular product of the people.


Locust's are disputed as a form of pancake similer to the manna eaten by the Jews in Exile spread with honey, an Essene recipe, and as they were a bit on the hortricultural self sufficiently vegie based nature a few bee hives would be just the ticket innit mind you how a vegie feels about a few fried locust dipped in honey, they reckon to be nice, so an either or there.

bernard (hug)
Honey 56

Farmer Geddon wrote:
Honey 56 wrote:
The only references to *Nazarene I have found in the scriptures, refer to Messiah Yeshua, for example.....

"Don't be alarmed," he said. "You are looking for Jesus the *Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him.
Mark 16


*Nazarénos: a Nazarene, an inhabitant of Nazareth
Original Word: Ναζαρηνός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: Nazarénos
Phonetic Spelling: (nad-zar-ay-nos')
Short Definition: of Nazareth
Definition: of Nazareth, a Nazarene.


That's interesting my versions just say "of Nazareth" Nazarénos

The only place I can specifically find "Nazarene" (as in Nazoraios) is in the one below:


Quote:
compare....

21So he got up, took the child and his mother and went to the land of Israel. 22But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning in Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. Having been warned in a dream, he withdrew to the district of Galilee, 23and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets: “He will be called a Nazarene.”

Matthew 2

As far as I can see there is no other definition, unless anyone else knows any different?

Honey  


And also in 26:71.

Both use the Greek Nazoraios

Quote:
Definition:
Nazarite = "one separated"
an inhabitant of Nazareth
a title given to Jesus in the NT
a name given to Christians by the Jews.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/nazoraios.html


The question I must now ask concerning Matt 2:23 is:

Which prophets and what exactly was said by them as is claimed here by the writer of Matthew?


Hi Farmer,
I was wondering the same thing, trying to find where this was prophesied, but LeClerc post seems to have adressed this quite nicely.
For me anyway.

Honey
Honey 56

LeClerc wrote:
Hi Honey



This is where I believe it is important to go back to Hebrew

Isaiah 1
8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged (Hebrew natsar) city.
and

Isaiah 11
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch (Hebrew netser) shall grow out of his roots

Netser is from the root natsar.

LeClerc


I agree, and thanks for the scriptures in Isaiah, I was trying to find some prophesy regarding Yeshua being called a Nazarene.

I love it here!!!

Honey
Jim

Bernie;
I have heard arguments that, rather than an Essene, John the Baptist was, in fact, a Nazerite.
bnabernard

Jim wrote:
Bernie;
I have heard arguments that, rather than an Essene, John the Baptist was, in fact, a Nazerite.


Yes a nazerite, commonly understood, and often a nazerite chosen by God, how about sampson.

bernard (hug)
Honey 56

bnabernard wrote:
Mostly the prophets came from the Essenes, John the bap was an example in the manner of Elijah.
I reckon they were pretty much a regular product of the people.


Locust's are disputed as a form of pancake similer to the manna eaten by the Jews in Exile spread with honey, an Essene recipe, and as they were a bit on the hortricultural self sufficiently vegie based nature a few bee hives would be just the ticket innit mind you how a vegie feels about a few fried locust dipped in honey, they reckon to be nice, so an either or there.

bernard (hug)


The scripture are clear about John's role, that he was intended from conception to play a special part in the Messiah's life, in fact when He was in the womb he was filled with the Holy Spirit and he leapt for joy when he recognised that Mary was carrying our future Messiah.

John's ministry was to prepare the way for the Lord, his baptism was for the forgiveness of sins, but he always knew there was one greater coming, one who would baptise with the holy Spirit and one with the Diety's power to forgive sins personally., he also recognised Yeshua as the Holy Lamb of YHWH, the one who was to take away the sins of the world.
As soon as He recognised that Yeshua's ministry had began he realised that he must now take a back seat and his role was fullfilled.

I don't believe that the scriptures indicate that John was a member of any cult, his parents were give instruction on how to raise their son, but when he was grown he is described as leading a very solitary life in contemplation of YHWH and in preparation for the Christ, and that is the most important thing.


Honey
Jim

Interesting article on Nazarites at
www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/nazarite.html
Honey 56

Thank you for the link Jim, this .........

Nazarite

Hebrew: form Nazirite

the name of such Israelites as took on them the vow prescribed in Num. 6:2-21

The word denotes generally one who is separated from others and consecrated to God. Although there is no mention of any Nazarite before Samson, yet it is evident that they existed before the time of Moses.

The vow of a Nazarite involved these three things,
1.
abstinence from wine and strong drink,

2.
refraining from cutting the hair off the head during the whole period of the continuance of the vow, and…

3.
the avoidance of contact with the dead.


When the period of the continuance of the vow came to an end, the Nazarite had to present himself at the door of the sanctuary with…
1.
a he lamb of the first year for a burnt-offering

2.
a ewe lamb of the first year for a sin-offering

3.
a ram for a peace-offering


Is a description of John's ministy to a T., up to and including the sacrifice  (Yeshua) at the end of the ministry.

Brilliant.
Thanks again Jim.  
bnabernard

Another way to become a nazerite was when passing another they would say ''me to'' , else there was a temple procedure or something, the other was in a visitation from a spirit of God (sampson)
Now a spirit of God as in the case of JtB's mother was the case, and in Yeshua's case, Mary and wots 'er name mother of JB were neigbours in Nazereth, iether the village or the tents, because as I said at Mount Carmel they did not put up brick or permanant dwellings, something to do with it being a Holy mountain.

Both Yeshua and John would have Nazereth as their parents home.

Why Nazereth should suddenly grow from a tented community to some kind of city beats me because it was never the case, at most a small community might have built dwellings away from the foot of the Holy mountain. But as FG said (was it FG?) or someone there was evidence of the romans who could well have built when and where ?? what is known of the nazerenes is their shunning of the material things of life.

bernard  (hug)
bnabernard

Basicaly nazereth got its name from the nazerites not the other way round. and those that were not commited were refered to as nazerenes.

bernard (hug)

I heard that, yes you, I heard you say it's him who should be commited,
Honey 56

bnabernard wrote:
.

Both Yeshua and John would have Nazereth as their parents home.

Why Nazereth should suddenly grow from a tented community to some kind of city beats me because it was never the case, at most a small community might have built dwellings away from the foot of the Holy mountain. But as FG said (was it FG?) or someone there was evidence of the romans who could well have built when and where ?? what is known of the nazerenes is their shunning of the material things of life.

bernard  (hug)


This is the account in Luke.....

35The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be calledc the Son of God. 36Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month. 37For nothing is impossible with God.”

38“I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May it be to me as you have said.” Then the angel left her.

Mary Visits Elizabeth

39At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea,
40where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. 41When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!”


compare....

21So he got up, took the child and his mother and went to the land of Israel. 22But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning in Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. Having been warned in a dream, he withdrew to the district of Galilee, 23and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets: “He will be called a Nazarene.” Matthew 2
bnabernard

Luke 2:1-7
And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed. And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city. And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:) To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child. And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered. And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn

Ones rear end and their elbow springs to mind regarding scripture then don't it.

bernard (hug)
bnabernard

http://www.essene.org/Essenes_of_Mount_Carmel.htm

Now I don't much care for sites that shout at you as this one does, but it does have a bit of a map at the bottom of it's page if thats any help to anybody.

bernard (hug)
Powwow

The Essenes didn't trust women. That doesn't sound like Christ at all. And I wonder where bna got the idea that the prophets came from this sect.

By the way bna your Essene church of Christ is a cult led by high priest Day. Everyone take a look. I see they believe in Lady Christ.
Honey 56

pow wow wrote:
The Essenes didn't trust women. That doesn't sound like Christ at all. And I wonder where bna got the idea that the prophets came from this sect.


Not from the scriptures, that's for sure, anywhere but, by the look of some of his links!  

Honey
bnabernard

Honey 56 wrote:
pow wow wrote:
The Essenes didn't trust women. That doesn't sound like Christ at all. And I wonder where bna got the idea that the prophets came from this sect.


Not from the scriptures, that's for sure, anywhere but, by the look of some of his links!  

Honey


There are loads, but justs as the affluent influential jews could not accept a nazerene, so it remains the case.


It's unfortunate that because of the erradication of the people who were close to Yeshua, and the followers, their testimonies and the like, we are left with little more than what the big wigs of the day wanted the people to believe, the things of slavery and the sword.

but anyhow many today are looking for the truth and here's another example of those who try, even if they miss the mark a bit themselves.

http://www.hope-of-israel.org/nazarene.htm

bernard (hug)
Powwow

Oh no, I see that I can grab a cart and go shopping on the Essene Church of Christ site! Bna, come on now.
bnabernard

pow wow wrote:
Oh no, I see that I can grab a cart and go shopping on the Essene Church of Christ site! Bna, come on now.


Cor ain't you got your plastic out, shame on you  
Well lets face it religion comes that way from that continent innit, in fact you have (over the border) quite a nazerene comitment growing up, the american way,  
http://www.nazarene-friends.org/articles/Nazarene%20Principles.php
http://www.essene.com/

http://www.bing.com/search?q=esse...90&mkt=en-gb&qs=n&sk=

bernard (hug)
Honey 56

Bernard.
Quote:

but anyhow many today are looking for the truth and here's another example of those who try, even if they miss the mark a bit themselves.


Do you not believe what Messiah Yeshua said Himslef...

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Why look any further?

Honey
bnabernard

Honey 56 wrote:
Bernard.
Quote:

but anyhow many today are looking for the truth and here's another example of those who try, even if they miss the mark a bit themselves.


Do you not believe what Messiah Yeshua said Himslef...

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Why look any further?

Honey


Because there are a lot of false teachings surrounding the guy, even on the nazerene sites.

I'm looking into this one at the moment because this discussion has as they say ''put me out there'' and it seems so for reasonably honest in saying ''don't know'' on some things.
http://www.essene.com/What%20is%20a%20Nazarene.htm

got me rubick cube head on cos what comes by inspiration can certainly get bogged down with other peoples truths.

bernard (hug)

bernard (hug)
Powwow

bna, that's sad that you have to look everywhere but the Bible. Oh, and don't go sending any of your money to High Priest Brother Day.
bnabernard

pow wow wrote:
bna, that's sad that you have to look everywhere but the Bible. Oh, and don't go sending any of your money to High Priest Brother Day.


I've got me own begging bowl these days thanks, spare a nugget dude.

All aboard bernies new ark, ain't sailed that for a while, still you would have missed that one and probably only a few of the old timers remember it  
Ain't making much selling rocks for the stoneings these days even if Ketty tried to drum up trade in the bear pit.

bernard (hug)
Farmer Geddon

LeClerc wrote:
.....This is where I believe it is important to go back to Hebrew

Isaiah 1
8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged (Hebrew natsar) city.
and

Isaiah 11
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch (Hebrew netser) shall grow out of his roots

Netser is from the root natsar.

LeClerc


What has it got to do with a Nazarene???

As in - "So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets: “He will be called a Nazarene.”
bnabernard

Isa 1:9   Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, [and] we should have been like unto Gomorrah

Isa 1:10Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.  


Isa 1:11   To what purpose [is] the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

perhaps he was considering the next verse's and thinking, perhaps bernie has something after all  

bernard (hug)

Reading the whole chapter there is quite an overtone of what Jesus/Yeshua was teaching.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bi...Isa&c=1&v=1&t=KJV#top
bnabernard

And perhaps meditating on  

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bi...sa&c=11&v=1&t=KJV#top

bernard (hug)
Powwow

Yes, Jesus was not the meek, mild, compromising Jesus portrayed by the liberal Christians of today.
One of the worst things a Christian can do is compromise and not confront those that peddle a soul destroying, hell bound doctrine.
bnabernard



You sound more like a pharisee acussing Yeshua and holding onto what he has than what he should have.

bernard (hug)
Powwow

Bna,get a grip. When was Christ ever cordial and meek, when confronted with those peddling heresy? Christ was in a rage when her chased out those  defilers of the temple. He never ever compromised with a pharisee, he was never ever nice with them. Christ infact made a point of humiliating those peddlers of  a hell bound doctrine at every opportunity. No, Jesus' compassion can best be seen when the broken but believing sinner approached Him.
Christ's compassion was no where to be seen when He was confronting the heretics and hypocrites.
You think heresy is some little joke of yours Bna? Well, laugh for now.
bnabernard

I have no problem with the way that Yeshua deals with heretics, it's the pharisee's who say they are not heretics that makes me smile/sad.

bernard (hug)
Powwow

LOL, perhaps my memory has failed me. Care to point out the scripture verse of the Pharisees denying their heresy? Christ humiliated them every time and usually shut them right up because they recognized what indeed they were.
Heresy follows those that leave scripture behind and look to strange internet sites for revelation,high priest brother Day for example, it follows those that rely on an organization for guidance and salvation.
bnabernard

pow wow wrote:
LOL, perhaps my memory has failed me. Care to point out the scripture verse of the Pharisees denying their heresy? Christ humiliated them every time and usually shut them right up because they recognized what indeed they were.
Heresy follows those that leave scripture behind and look to strange internet sites for revelation, it follows those that rely on an organization for guidance and salvation.


Are you part of an organisation pow wow, if so you condemn yourself out of your own mouth, try as you may you will not find my standard at any place but the true church, many have tried to place me, have a go, get your boots wet because just when you find me here I am elswhere.

bernard (hug)
Powwow

No Bna, I am not a member nor do I belong to any organization.  I do not search internet sites for revelation on Christ. If one worships in a congregation, find one that does not set aside scripture, find one that holds to scripture rather then compromising scripture for the sake of fitting in or not offending. Find one that bows their heads seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit before they turn to His Word.

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