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genghiscant

Another result for religion.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news...robi-shopping-centre-8831413.html
Ketty

Re: Another result for religion.

genghiscant wrote:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news...robi-shopping-centre-8831413.html


Kenyan security forces are locked in a standoff with heavily armed gunmen who have killed at least 59 people inside an upmarket shopping mall in the heart of Nairobi.

A further 175 people have been taken to hospitals with serious injuries while about 1,000 others have been rescued unharmed.

At least three Britons are among the dead, although the Foreign Secretary William Hague said this number is expected to rise.



Dreadful, what man will do to other men.  
Powwow

Muslim suicide bombers attack Christian church slaughtering 78.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/suic...kistani-church-kills-78-1.1863657
Leonard James

It is really a tad short-sighted to blame these atrocities onto religion. Whilst religion is one of the things that divide humanity into opposing groups, many other things do the same.

The ultimate cause for man's inhumanity to man is the evolutionary process itself, which has at its heart the survival instinct. The advent of parental care and then later the appearance of social species have tended to reverse the original self-first instinct to some extent, but they can never eradicate it.

All we can do is use our intelligence to try to minimise and control it.
cyberman

Re: Another result for religion.

genghiscant wrote:
Another result for religion.


One could as easily say "Another result for those trying to repress religious freedom".

And it would be just a stupid, childish and ignorant as your version.
Powwow

Islamic extremists are all about their religion. Everything they do is for their religion. Let me tell you Leo that you would be targeted for death on two counts were they to control your area. One you're an atheist and two, you're gay.
While I do blame our sinful nature I also blame the religion of those terrorists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Y-Tw7WhH_aQ
Leonard James

pow wow wrote:
Islamic extremists are all about their religion. Everything they do is for their religion. Let me tell you Leo that you would be targeted for death on two counts were they to control your area. One you're an atheist and two, you're gay.
While I do blame our sinful nature I also blame the religion of those terrorists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Y-Tw7WhH_aQ


True, Pow. But all we can do is try to educate such ignorance out of them.
Shaker

Re: Another result for religion.

cyberman wrote:
genghiscant wrote:
Another result for religion.


One could as easily say "Another result for those trying to repress religious freedom".

And it would be just a stupid, childish and ignorant as your version.

No, one couldn't and no, it wouldn't.
genghiscant

Re: Another result for religion.

cyberman wrote:
genghiscant wrote:
Another result for religion.


One could as easily say "Another result for those trying to repress religious freedom".

And it would be just a stupid, childish and ignorant as your version.


1500s. The Aztec theocracy sacrificed thousands of people to appease their gods.

During three centuries of witch-hunts in Europe, an estimated two million people were burned at the stake.

1980s. Nearly 3000 people were killed in Northern Ireland.

1095. Crusades. During two centuries of wars, hundreds of thousands of people were killed. This was after the Crusaders killed thousands of Jews in Germany en route to the holy lands.

Starting in 1144 the Catholic "Blood Libel" killed thousands Jews throughout Europe.

The Holocaust. Although not strictly religious in nature, for centuries the Jews had been demonised by the Christian faith & were branded as accursed. Popes ordered Jews to wear badges & live in ghettos.

September 11, 2001. 3000 people killed at the World Trade Centre by a handful of militant Islamic fanatics, convinced that they were doing it for their God.

These are just a minute fraction of the tens of millions of people killed in the name of one God or another, & still it goes on.

I find your naivety on this subject astounding.
Lexilogio

But religion is often more used as an excuse, or as a tool for political control (as in the Dune books by Frank Herbert).

Those hungry to get / retain power, often will try to exploit religion, because it is often a way of having certainty about behaviours. We have seen this in recent times, even now, political leaders in the Islamic countries sometimes use the Shia / Sunni / Wahabi and every other sect differentials for political reasons.
genghiscant

Lexilogio wrote:
But religion is often more used as an excuse, or as a tool for political control (as in the Dune books by Frank Herbert).

Those hungry to get / retain power, often will try to exploit religion, because it is often a way of having certainty about behaviours. We have seen this in recent times, even now, political leaders in the Islamic countries sometimes use the Shia / Sunni / Wahabi and every other sect differentials for political reasons.


A three hundred year witch-hunt was political?

Do you really believe that a suicide bomber is doing it for political reasons?

How about the Aztecs?


A belief in God is just what it says it is. Religion is something else. Religion, especially organised religion, is to a large extent political & all about power. The power to control people & amass as many of them as possible with promises of reward when they die.
cyberman

Re: Another result for religion.

Shaker wrote:
cyberman wrote:
genghiscant wrote:
Another result for religion.


One could as easily say "Another result for those trying to repress religious freedom".

And it would be just a stupid, childish and ignorant as your version.

No, one couldn't and no, it wouldn't.


No it wouldn't? OK, you're right. It wouldn't be that stupid.
cyberman

Re: Another result for religion.

genghiscant wrote:
cyberman wrote:
genghiscant wrote:
Another result for religion.


One could as easily say "Another result for those trying to repress religious freedom".

And it would be just a stupid, childish and ignorant as your version.


1500s. The Aztec theocracy sacrificed thousands of people to appease their gods.

During three centuries of witch-hunts in Europe, an estimated two million people were burned at the stake.

1980s. Nearly 3000 people were killed in Northern Ireland.

1095. Crusades. During two centuries of wars, hundreds of thousands of people were killed. This was after the Crusaders killed thousands of Jews in Germany en route to the holy lands.

Starting in 1144 the Catholic "Blood Libel" killed thousands Jews throughout Europe.

The Holocaust. Although not strictly religious in nature, for centuries the Jews had been demonised by the Christian faith & were branded as accursed. Popes ordered Jews to wear badges & live in ghettos.

September 11, 2001. 3000 people killed at the World Trade Centre by a handful of militant Islamic fanatics, convinced that they were doing it for their God.

These are just a minute fraction of the tens of millions of people killed in the name of one God or another, & still it goes on.

I find your naivety on this subject astounding.


What 'naivety'? Why do you indulge in l-informed fantasy that I don't already know these things? I think perhaps you have put two and two together and made pi!
genghiscant

Re: Another result for religion.

cyberman wrote:
genghiscant wrote:
cyberman wrote:
genghiscant wrote:
Another result for religion.


One could as easily say "Another result for those trying to repress religious freedom".

And it would be just a stupid, childish and ignorant as your version.


1500s. The Aztec theocracy sacrificed thousands of people to appease their gods.

During three centuries of witch-hunts in Europe, an estimated two million people were burned at the stake.

1980s. Nearly 3000 people were killed in Northern Ireland.

1095. Crusades. During two centuries of wars, hundreds of thousands of people were killed. This was after the Crusaders killed thousands of Jews in Germany en route to the holy lands.

Starting in 1144 the Catholic "Blood Libel" killed thousands Jews throughout Europe.

The Holocaust. Although not strictly religious in nature, for centuries the Jews had been demonised by the Christian faith & were branded as accursed. Popes ordered Jews to wear badges & live in ghettos.

September 11, 2001. 3000 people killed at the World Trade Centre by a handful of militant Islamic fanatics, convinced that they were doing it for their God.

These are just a minute fraction of the tens of millions of people killed in the name of one God or another, & still it goes on.

I find your naivety on this subject astounding.


What 'naivety'? Why do you indulge in l-informed fantasy that I don't already know these things? I think perhaps you have put two and two together and made pi!


History shows that when religions can't persuade, they turn to violence. Your kindly local priest or vicar doesn't appear as much of a threat, but behind him stands a huge multi-national organisation with immense power & financial resources, the very antithesis of what Jesus was supposed to have stood for.
And then, here's the really clever bit, they get you & millions like you to give them some of your money to pay for salaries, pensions & the upkeep of church properties.

Yes, I think you're naive.
Lexilogio

genghiscant wrote:
Lexilogio wrote:
But religion is often more used as an excuse, or as a tool for political control (as in the Dune books by Frank Herbert).

Those hungry to get / retain power, often will try to exploit religion, because it is often a way of having certainty about behaviours. We have seen this in recent times, even now, political leaders in the Islamic countries sometimes use the Shia / Sunni / Wahabi and every other sect differentials for political reasons.


A three hundred year witch-hunt was political?

Do you really believe that a suicide bomber is doing it for political reasons?

How about the Aztecs?


A belief in God is just what it says it is. Religion is something else. Religion, especially organised religion, is to a large extent political & all about power. The power to control people & amass as many of them as possible with promises of reward when they die.


I said many - not all.

I can't comment on the Aztecs, as I know too little about them.
Suicide bombing is often as much psychological - but the reasons vary. It would be naive to suggest that one reason fitted all. Some are due to desperation - if you live in an area with no future for yourself or your family for example. People have committed suicide for political reasons - Emily Pankhurst was one such.
genghiscant

Re: Another result for religion.

cyberman wrote:
genghiscant wrote:
cyberman wrote:
genghiscant wrote:
Another result for religion.


One could as easily say "Another result for those trying to repress religious freedom".

And it would be just a stupid, childish and ignorant as your version.


1500s. The Aztec theocracy sacrificed thousands of people to appease their gods.

During three centuries of witch-hunts in Europe, an estimated two million people were burned at the stake.

1980s. Nearly 3000 people were killed in Northern Ireland.

1095. Crusades. During two centuries of wars, hundreds of thousands of people were killed. This was after the Crusaders killed thousands of Jews in Germany en route to the holy lands.

Starting in 1144 the Catholic "Blood Libel" killed thousands Jews throughout Europe.

The Holocaust. Although not strictly religious in nature, for centuries the Jews had been demonised by the Christian faith & were branded as accursed. Popes ordered Jews to wear badges & live in ghettos.

September 11, 2001. 3000 people killed at the World Trade Centre by a handful of militant Islamic fanatics, convinced that they were doing it for their God.

These are just a minute fraction of the tens of millions of people killed in the name of one God or another, & still it goes on.

I find your naivety on this subject astounding.


What 'naivety'? Why do you indulge in l-informed fantasy that I don't already know these things? I think perhaps you have put two and two together and made pi!


History shows that when religions can't persuade, they turn to violence. Your kindly local priest or vicar doesn't appear as much of a threat, but behind him stands a huge multi-national organisation with immense power & financial resources, the very antithesis of what Jesus was supposed to have stood for.
And then, here's the really clever bit, they get you & millions like you to give them some of your money to pay for salaries, pensions & the upkeep of church properties.

Yes, I think you're naive.
cyberman

Re: Another result for religion.

genghiscant wrote:
cyberman wrote:
genghiscant wrote:
cyberman wrote:
genghiscant wrote:
Another result for religion.


One could as easily say "Another result for those trying to repress religious freedom".

And it would be just a stupid, childish and ignorant as your version.


1500s. The Aztec theocracy sacrificed thousands of people to appease their gods.

During three centuries of witch-hunts in Europe, an estimated two million people were burned at the stake.

1980s. Nearly 3000 people were killed in Northern Ireland.

1095. Crusades. During two centuries of wars, hundreds of thousands of people were killed. This was after the Crusaders killed thousands of Jews in Germany en route to the holy lands.

Starting in 1144 the Catholic "Blood Libel" killed thousands Jews throughout Europe.

The Holocaust. Although not strictly religious in nature, for centuries the Jews had been demonised by the Christian faith & were branded as accursed. Popes ordered Jews to wear badges & live in ghettos.

September 11, 2001. 3000 people killed at the World Trade Centre by a handful of militant Islamic fanatics, convinced that they were doing it for their God.

These are just a minute fraction of the tens of millions of people killed in the name of one God or another, & still it goes on.

I find your naivety on this subject astounding.


What 'naivety'? Why do you indulge in l-informed fantasy that I don't already know these things? I think perhaps you have put two and two together and made pi!


History shows that when religions can't persuade, they turn to violence. Your kindly local priest or vicar doesn't appear as much of a threat, but behind him stands a huge multi-national organisation with immense power & financial resources, the very antithesis of what Jesus was supposed to have stood for.
And then, here's the really clever bit, they get you & millions like you to give them some of your money to pay for salaries, pensions & the upkeep of church properties.

Yes, I think you're naive.


But you  side-stepped the question - why do you think I didn't know the things you listed? If I didn;t know about them, then you might call me naive. But what has led you to think I don't know about them?
genghiscant

Re: Another result for religion.

cyberman wrote:
genghiscant wrote:
cyberman wrote:
genghiscant wrote:
cyberman wrote:
genghiscant wrote:
Another result for religion.


One could as easily say "Another result for those trying to repress religious freedom".

And it would be just a stupid, childish and ignorant as your version.


1500s. The Aztec theocracy sacrificed thousands of people to appease their gods.

During three centuries of witch-hunts in Europe, an estimated two million people were burned at the stake.

1980s. Nearly 3000 people were killed in Northern Ireland.

1095. Crusades. During two centuries of wars, hundreds of thousands of people were killed. This was after the Crusaders killed thousands of Jews in Germany en route to the holy lands.

Starting in 1144 the Catholic "Blood Libel" killed thousands Jews throughout Europe.

The Holocaust. Although not strictly religious in nature, for centuries the Jews had been demonised by the Christian faith & were branded as accursed. Popes ordered Jews to wear badges & live in ghettos.

September 11, 2001. 3000 people killed at the World Trade Centre by a handful of militant Islamic fanatics, convinced that they were doing it for their God.

These are just a minute fraction of the tens of millions of people killed in the name of one God or another, & still it goes on.

I find your naivety on this subject astounding.


What 'naivety'? Why do you indulge in l-informed fantasy that I don't already know these things? I think perhaps you have put two and two together and made pi!


History shows that when religions can't persuade, they turn to violence. Your kindly local priest or vicar doesn't appear as much of a threat, but behind him stands a huge multi-national organisation with immense power & financial resources, the very antithesis of what Jesus was supposed to have stood for.
And then, here's the really clever bit, they get you & millions like you to give them some of your money to pay for salaries, pensions & the upkeep of church properties.

Yes, I think you're naive.


But you †side-stepped the question - why do you think I didn't know the things you listed? If I didn;t know about them, then you might call me naive. But what has led you to think I don't know about them?


No, you're not going to get me playing your usual pedantic games. You know what I meant & so does everyone else.
cyberman

Re: Another result for religion.

genghiscant wrote:


No, you're not going to get me playing your usual pedantic games. You know what I meant & so does everyone else.


Yes, you meant I was naive because you assumed I did not know about all the things you listed.

What I want to know is why you assumed that.

That isn't pedantry, dear heart, it is just a question which you dislike.
Shaker

Re: Another result for religion.

genghiscant wrote:
History shows that when religions can't persuade, they turn to violence. Your kindly local priest or vicar doesn't appear as much of a threat, but behind him stands a huge multi-national organisation with immense power & financial resources, the very antithesis of what Jesus was supposed to have stood for.

That sounds like the cue for a favourite quote of mine:

Quote:
Many religions now come before us with ingratiating smirks and outspread hands, like an unctuous merchant in a bazaar. They offer consolation and solidarity and uplift, competing as they do in a marketplace. But we have a right to remember how barbarically they behaved when they were strong and were making an offer that people could not refuse.óChristopher Hitchens
cyberman

Re: Another result for religion.

Shaker wrote:
genghiscant wrote:
History shows that when religions can't persuade, they turn to violence. Your kindly local priest or vicar doesn't appear as much of a threat, but behind him stands a huge multi-national organisation with immense power & financial resources, the very antithesis of what Jesus was supposed to have stood for.

That sounds like the cue for a favourite quote of mine:

Quote:
Many religions now come before us with ingratiating smirks and outspread hands, like an unctuous merchant in a bazaar. They offer consolation and solidarity and uplift, competing as they do in a marketplace. But we have a right to remember how barbarically they behaved when they were strong and were making an offer that people could not refuse.óChristopher Hitchens


But isn't Hitchens here fallaciously anthropomorphicising institutions?
genghiscant

Quote:
But isn't Hitchens here fallaciously anthropomorphicising institutions?


The mucky bastard.
cyberman

genghiscant wrote:
Quote:
But isn't Hitchens here fallaciously anthropomorphicising institutions?


The mucky bastard.


Oh dear. That made me chortle out loud at work.

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