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Lexilogio

Can people be possessed by demons?

This has been the topic on 4thought this week.

Do you think people can be possessed by demons?
bnabernard

Well there seems to be evidence of spirit possession if the case of Legion is to be beleived and in that particuler case multiple possession at that.

However when I sugest that Noah was outnumbered by spirits then suddenly they seem to disapear.
There does seem to be a case for it, the problem seems to be that everybody wants them to be nasty things that can be identified rather than sneaky little buggers that can be quite charming.


bernard (hug)
Powwow

Yes of course people can have demons. But stay away from the demon obsessed people. You know the ones that live and breath demons and unclean spirits. They see them around every corner and inside every ill person.
No person needs to be diagnosed for having unclean spirits by some demon obsessed Christian. Why? Because an unclean spirit will always speak up in the presence of Christ and in the presence of the Holy Spirit. They can't remain silent because they know Christ and they fear Him. Thousands upon thousands of ill people have been further damaged by these demon obsessed people.
True believers can NOT be possessed. Not once in scripture do we find Jesus or the disciples casting demons out of believers. I do believe a Christian can be oppressed by unclean spirits. You see the Holy Spirit and and unclean spirits can't occupy the same vessel at the same time.
trentvoyager

Re: Can people be possessed by demons?

Lexilogio wrote:
This has been the topic on 4thought this week.

Do you think people can be possessed by demons?


Erm....No.

That's it.
Leonard James

Quote:
Can people be possessed by demons?

No, of course not, because demons don't exist ... they are nothing more than a human invention.

People can be mentally ill, and be convinced that they are "possessed" either because they believe it themselves or because other people have convinced them.

I find it sad that in these enlightened times people who have received a good education can still believe such rubbish, although I can quite understand it in the case of isolated tribes who have so far been deprived of modern education.
Powwow

Just read this today in the local news here in Calgary.
google
exorcist expertise sought after saskatoon possession cbc news
Jim

I'm with you on this, pow wow.
There are those independant churches and housechurches which stress a 'ministry' against demon-possession. The recent horrific 'kindoki' murder trial in the UK was the inevitable result.

   I accept the concept of demon possession - but I submit that the overwhelming majority of those who are 'possessed' are really mentally ill, and psychiatritsts should be the first call, IMHO.

   There are specialists in exorcism ministry within certain churches, and they are usually qualified both in psychology and theology. When they are brought into a situation, their discernment soon deals with the vast majority of 'demons', showing the reality of the mental illness first, and only then, dealing with any subsequent spiritual matters without fuss, mass hysteria or physical bullying.

So how do yo spot the charlatans?
Well, first and foremost, they would come with a recommendation from the church authorities.
And second, they would never demand payment for prayer.
northernstar

No, they suffer from psychosis, no such things as demons. As for these so called exorcists, they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent.
Powwow

north,
",no such things as demons."
Oh yes there is, but out of curiosity, if you rounded up all the exorcists in your country and sent them to prison. Under what law do you plan on charging and getting a conviction?
Perhaps you can start one of those atheist crusades against them.lol Perhaps have a parade that ends in a big bible burning bonfire. Great publicity stunt for you people.
Leonard James

pow wow wrote:
north,
",no such things as demons."
Oh yes there is, but out of curiosity, if you rounded up all the exorcists in your country and sent them to prison. Under what law do you plan on charging and getting a conviction?
Perhaps you can start one of those atheist crusades against them.lol Perhaps have a parade that ends in a big bible burning bonfire. Great publicity stunt for you people.

What on earth has Bible-burning got to do with it? Christianity doesn't have the only market in evil spirits, you know. Lots of other beliefs are knee-deep in them.

It is only natural that such primitive ideas prevailed in early times, when little was know about mental illness. Fortunately a lot of people are more enlightened now.
northernstar

I have Christian friends who take their faith seriously and I respect that, they don't proselytize with me, it's the evangelicals who annoy me. Like performing "exorcisms" on children, by stomping on them, beating them, is that Christian? As far as I'm concerned, that's abuse and they should be punished for it. Of course, there is also mental abuse, "believe or else you will burn in hell", that is not Christian in my opinion. Same with some evangelical parents who let their child die because they don't believe in doctors but believe their "god" can cure. It's the 21st century, such behaviour should not be tolerated. No, pow wow, we atheists don't do book burning, it's religions that persecute other religions. Nuff said.
Jim

northernstar;
Hold the bus!
Don't class all 'evangelicals' together, please...
Some of us, while maintaining an evangelical and theologically conservative position, even some of us who are also charismatics, wouldn't like to be put in the same box as the people you describe.

    Such people rely mainly on an emotional 'buzz' as a source of euphoria, and practice ideas and methods which have a tenuous, at best, and nonexistant at worst, tie with mainstream evangelical thought.
Powwow

north,
Oh, I get it. You just have a hate on for evangelicals. Nice. So you won't lake offense if I lump all the atheists in with Castro and Mao. I mean those two are a couple of the most enlightened and least primitive.lol Perhaps Freud and his cocaine habit and obsession with children having sex with their parents.  That's an enlightened atheist for sure ya?
So get real and stop trying to drench all evangelicals with your same bucket of vomit.
Ketty

pow wow wrote:
Yes of course people can have demons. But stay away from the demon obsessed people. You know the ones that live and breath demons and unclean spirits.
. . .
No person needs to be diagnosed for having unclean spirits by some demon obsessed Christian.


Jim wrote:
I'm with you on this, pow wow.
. . .
So how do yo spot the charlatans?. . .

And second, they would never demand payment for prayer.


Hear, hear, and hear, hear.  
northernstar

pow wow wrote:
north,
Oh, I get it. You just have a hate on for evangelicals. Nice. So you won't lake offense if I lump all the atheists in with Castro and Mao. I mean those two are a couple of the most enlightened and least primitive.lol Perhaps Freud and his cocaine habit and obsession with children having sex with their parents.  That's an enlightened atheist for sure ya?
So get real and stop trying to drench all evangelicals with your same bucket of vomit.


I rest my case.
northernstar

Jim wrote:
northernstar;
Hold the bus!
Don't class all 'evangelicals' together, please...
Some of us, while maintaining an evangelical and theologically conservative position, even some of us who are also charismatics, wouldn't like to be put in the same box as the people you describe.

    Such people rely mainly on an emotional 'buzz' as a source of euphoria, and practice ideas and methods which have a tenuous, at best, and nonexistant at worst, tie with mainstream evangelical thought.



They're not "true" Christians, then?
Jim

Not true Christians?
If they deliberately harm people physically and mentally in an effort to 'exorcise' them, well, no.

If they try to threaten people into the Kingdom by envisaging a satanic BBQ, instead of offering fellow travellers ideas on where to find a hope they themselves have, then, in my view, no.

When the lord commanded us to love, He didn't, and doesn't make exceptions. I can't see the love in frightening people to death (literally) or beating them into the grave.
bnabernard

 So what say you Jim, should they rip out all the pages that mention death and destruction of the people who will not turn to God, erase mention of sodom and Gommorah, take away examples of Jonah and Nineveh?
Hey it was only a local flood not a world wide destruction of the evil, just a stream overflowing?
I reckon we better tell God to be a bit more PC in His aproach lest He upsets and worries people,  

Anyhow apart from all that, where do these nasty little demons come from, why are they invisible? Whats their agenda? how many are there?

Whats this bit all about, thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven?

bernard (hug)
Jim

Of course not!
Bna, come on, I admire your hyperbole, but....

   No-one, certainly not me, is suggesting we do anything of the sort, but I was talking about those people who go on an ego trip, being dramitic, screaming, yelling 'In the name of Jesus', working themselves, and their audience, into a hysterical emotion fest.
Where is the love of Christ there? Where is the gentleness of the shepherd's rod and staff? Whatever we do, the first thing we need to remember is that those we deal with are just like us; ordinary, flawed, frightened people. Do we really want to frighten them more?
bnabernard

Jim wrote:
Of course not!
Bna, come on, I admire your hyperbole, but....

   No-one, certainly not me, is suggesting we do anything of the sort, but I was talking about those people who go on an ego trip, being dramitic, screaming, yelling 'In the name of Jesus', working themselves, and their audience, into a hysterical emotion fest.
Where is the love of Christ there? Where is the gentleness of the shepherd's rod and staff? Whatever we do, the first thing we need to remember is that those we deal with are just like us; ordinary, flawed, frightened people. Do we really want to frighten them more?


Nice one only I seem to recall a rod of iron which don't realy smack of a gentle tap.
However for the first part, the ego trip merchants, why, because they have more enthusiasm for getting the life and death message across? spare the rod and spoil the child springs to mind, if more notice was taken of the message of life and death then perhaps there would be less need for the message, here I seem to recall a scripture relating to a little more laying down amd a little more folding of the hands?

So what are ordinary, flawed, frightened people, is that the God fearing people?  Are these the people who hope that God will not harden their hearts, thats another thing, we got demons to contend with and the possibility that God Himself will put us on the back foot?

So what we got, phase one, angels get man into trouble, God destroys the world and save eight. Angels it would seem can be recognised in fleshly form at this time, fleshly demons.
Phase two starting wwith eight people God moves forward to the next destruction of the world. during this phase demons cannot be recognised as they are invisible.
Phase three, a thousand years of peace and then spirits get let loose and rampant among men again concluding in another end of the world. Anybodys guess as to whether they will be visible or not.

Perhaps if we understood Gods purpose we might more readily recognise demonic activity, or perhaps if we where to have Gods law ramed down our throats then we might find a way of sticking to it, then we would be free of of doubt of the right and wrong of a situation.

But what are we, we don't have the strength to stand up for what is right, we manipulate what is right, we form groups and elect leaders so that our idea of right can be represented by that leader and we become strong as a group, we stand against other groups, we develop our own versions of right and wrong and at the end of the day don't know what is of God and what is demonic and what is plain selfishness on the part of a man.

In discourse with pow wow, and et al I sugested that a prophet would turn the rain clouds into fire and rain fire down on the demons as it would destroy that final life stage of the demon, the invisible stage, I suggested that who would stand beside me in the rain. Well to be honest my life style over the past sixty odd years could well see me up in flames, but how many people can be certain that their lifestyle 'is' the lifestyle that God aproves of, how many can be certain that they are not the ones who will be told ''get away from me I do not know you''

Oh well I'm starting to depress meself now and I want to be up at six to watch F1 so night night.

bernard (hug)
bnabernard

Missed the live F1 qualifier  
However, ..if a person goes to a foriegn country, cant speak the lingo, don't know the the system, how would he know who was demonised and who not?

bernard (hug)
Powwow

bna,
Please, oh please, don't start globe trotting in your obsessive pursuit of demons and unclean spirits! I don't see you having what it takes to recognizing a real unclean spirit and if you ever really ran into one, I'm sure you would be at their mercy.
SceptiKarl

Could someone please define "demon" for me? Are they natural or "supernatural"?

If they are supernatural, then I don't believe in them. IMO there is only natural. I believe the RCC believes in demons. They even have their own HOLY JOE brand of ghostbuster to clean out the Vatican! AMORTH SPIRIT BUSTER!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriele_Amorth


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