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Shaker

Channel 4 to broadcast Muslim call to prayer

... at least for the duration of Ramadan.

Quote:
The call to prayer is usually delivered from a mosque and is sometimes relayed by loudspeaker.

There are five calls to prayer a day but Channel 4 said it would only broadcast the first morning call to prayer each day. All the daily prayers will be played on the channelís website.

It will be delivered by musician Hassen Rasool and accompanied by a three-minute video showing him outside various London landmarks, including St Paulís Cathedral.

The first broadcast will be next Tuesday (July 9), the first day of Ramadan, at 3am.

Muslims around the world fast between sunrise and sunset during Ramadan, the ninth month of the Islamic calendar.

Channel 4 will also include the sunrise and sunset times during its weather reports.


Not sure whether this was one for Other religions or News. Predictable frothing of mouths, jerking of knees and swivelling of eyes from the usual suspects at the Scaly Mail (about a three-minute slot broadcast at 3:00am for thirty days), but since Muslims make up a small but non-negligible proportion of the UK population and since broadcasters (even commercial ones) are supposed to cater to their demographic, I don't see what the fuss is about. The BBC is stuffed full of Christian broadcasting across its output on a daily basis. Even now, in 2013, RTE (the main broadcaster in the Republic of Ireland) transmits the Angelus once a day on television (at 6:00pm) and twice a day on radio, at 12:00pm and 6:00pm.

Ralph Lee, the channel's Head of Factual Programming, said:

Quote:
'No doubt Channel 4 will be criticised for focusing attention on a minority religion but thatís what weíre here to do - provide space for the alternative and a voice to the under-represented.'


Terry Sanderson of the NSS is equally correct:

Quote:
Terry Sanderson, president of the National Secular Society, questioned whether Channel 4ís decision to broadcast the call to prayer was a 'publicity-seeking stunt'.

He said: 'It seems reasonable that there should be some acknowledgment on TV of the needs of the growing Muslim population in Britain, although one canít help wondering whether this is just another of Channel 4's publicity-seeking stunts.

Given that the BBC devotes hundreds of hours a year to Christianity, with two or three church services every day on its radio stations, and hardly any mention of minority religions, a few minutes devoted to Islam doesnít seem unreasonable.'
cyberman

Excellent. When are they going to start broadcasting the Angelus?
Shaker

cyberman wrote:
Excellent. When are they going to start broadcasting the Angelus?

They being Channel 4?
cyberman

Shaker wrote:
cyberman wrote:
Excellent. When are they going to start broadcasting the Angelus?

They being Channel 4?


I guess
Shaker

Well, since you used the word they, shouldn't you know rather than guess? Who is the they who should start broadcasting the Angelus?
cyberman

Shaker wrote:
Well, since you used the word they, shouldn't you know rather than guess? Who is the they who should start broadcasting the Angelus?


I didn't say anyone should do anything, did I? (Bet you ignore that question..)

I am surprised that you have such difficulty with English idiom. One doesn't usually need to analyse these sort of comments to such an extent, but if it is necessary for your benefit, I suppose in this context 'they' would mean 'free-to-view television broadcasters in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.'

When did I say anyone should do anything?
Shaker

I'd have thought that it's also part of common English idiom that when somebody rhetorically asks when are they [nearly always an unspecificed they, as in this case] going to do X, the speaker intends that X should be performed. Somebody who wonders aloud when are they going to bring back hanging/reintroduce National Service/sort out the economy/do something about the roads/show more naked female jelly wrestling on Channel 5 and so forth clearly wants these things to be done.

As for the point at hand: I should think that since the number of active, practising and believing (as opposed to purely nominal) Catholics in the UK is so low, there's no demand for the Angelus to be broadcast in a technically Protestant nation. The Angelus broadcast daily in the Republic of Ireland is a last fading remnant in what was once considered a staunchly Catholic, but now largely secular, country; the UK on the other hand, and arguably England in particular, hasn't had such a history for many centuries. The established church is Protestant, not Catholic. In the UK Christianity is a minority religion and Catholicism a minority within that minority. Broadcasters, quite rightly, have rules and regulations and I would say an obligation to make sure that almost everybody (religiously speaking) gets a turn from time to time, which is why you'll get the token but well-intentioned half-hour documentary to mark Rosh Hashanah or the occasional one-off programme about Buddhism. Here and there I've certainly seen the odd programme about Sikhism or paganism. The BBC's religious output per year is very considerable and is weighted towards Christianity: although confessedly I don't know the specifics I'm sure that Catholicism is represented.
cyberman

Shaker wrote:
The established church is Protestant, not Catholic.  


And not Muslim either, of course! Therefore I do not see why this is relevant.

Shaker wrote:
In the UK Christianity is a minority religion  


In what sense? Do you mean that you guess that in all the available stats people are lying and (for some reason) saying they are Christian when you know better?
Shaker

cyberman wrote:
Shaker wrote:
The established church is Protestant, not Catholic. †


And not Muslim either, of course! Therefore I do not see why this is relevant.

It's relevant as the answer to why 'they' don't broadcast the Angelus every day.

Shaker wrote:
In the UK Christianity is a minority religion †


cyberman wrote:
In what sense?

In the sense that a minority of UK citizens understand and hold Christian beliefs and/or actively practice Christianity as a religion, involving prayer directed at a supernatural being, attendance at a Christian place of worship and the like. In that sense.

Quote:
Do you mean that you guess that in all the available stats people are lying and (for some reason) saying they are Christian when you know better?

I don't need to guess - I've always found knowledge superior to guesswork, which is why I'm not a theist.

Pretending is a better word than lying - pretending more often than not simply out of lazy habit, though in some cases perhaps with a dash of conformity thrown in. Anecdotally, I know of at least two cases where people have (a) been set down on the census form by someone else or (b) set themselves down on the census form as Church of England (i.e. a Christian) despite definitely not being Christians, and in the latter case despite not knowing the first thing, not even the most wince-inducingly basic basics, of Christianity. I know this because (a) applies to myself and (b) to an elderly relative, both recently. I've discussed these before so I don't need to go into them again.

On a firmer footing, I also know of a very recent Ipsos/Mori poll which indicates just how many people who regard themselves as Christians for official purposes (such as on census and other official forms) are in fact merely census Christians (cultural Christians, if you prefer) with little or even no Christian belief or practice at all. Other available stats paint essentially the same picture - more and more so as time passes, as it goes. Church attendance figures in Protestant and Catholic denominations keep on going down over all year by year, as does the number of people professing to be Christian.

There are a great many mysteries in the universe and umpteen things still to wonder about, but really, this isn't one of them.

Now of course, having been presented with hard facts and figures which are quite unambiguous, since they support my stance and completely go against yours, you will do everything you possibly can to whitewash the evidence so that, according to you, the numbers don't actually say what they plainly do say. This is only to be expected - you can't be a theist without denial of plain-as-the-nose-on-your-face fact being a stock-in-trade. As far as I'm concerned however the statistics speak for themselves. The church attendance figures are, I would have thought, utterly beyond quibble or question by anybody: relative to the population as a whole very few people go to church and the numbers who do so drop by the year. (Cohort replacement, the sociologists call it). There's a truly colossal disparity between the numbers of those who label themselves for official purposes as Christian and those who attend a Christian place of worship, a disparity which stands in need of explanation. Therefore, anybody desperate to cling on to the belief that, even though they may not be active churchgoers, oodles and oodles of people in the UK are still believing Christians must invoke the old 'you don't have to go to church ...' line and hold that there are millions of people who hold Christian beliefs, they just don't do anything about it and are thus flying under the radar, so to speak.

Needless to say, anybody who floats such an assertion bears the burden of proof as to substantiating it. If you want to run with the idea, as some do, that there are lots of people who are actually Christians but are, so to speak, silent and invisible Christians certainly not represented in the attendance figures, you need to find another way of seeking them out and identifying them. An opinion poll would be one way of doing this, but that has been tried already and doesn't bear out the thesis. I've provided at least one source of data which makes it perfectly clear that the opposite is the case, viz. that while a great many people (arguably older age groups - which is where cohort replacement kicks in) call themselves C of E (usually), which implies knowledge of and belief in Anglican Christianity, in actuality they're absolutely nothing of the kind.
cyberman

Shaker wrote:
It's relevant as the answer to why 'they' don't broadcast the Angelus every day.


If only someone had asked that question!
cyberman

Shaker wrote:

Now of course, having been presented with hard facts and figures which are quite unambiguous, since they support my stance and completely go against yours, you will do everything you possibly can to whitewash the evidence so that, according to you, the numbers don't actually say what they plainly do say..


Really? When am I going to do this? Let me know, so I can keep my diary clear.
cyberman

So, while Shaker is having a little lie down - can anyone think of a reason why it makes sense to broadcast the call to prayer, but not the angelus?
Ketty

cyberman wrote:
So, while Shaker is having a little lie down - can anyone think of a reason why it makes sense to broadcast the call to prayer, but not the angelus?


I don't know what is the angelus, but the call to prayer? Probably because they want the publicity?  Or maybe they want to be seen as 'right on', 'all inclusive' (although they're being exclusive), 'multi-cultural' (although they're excluding other cultures), and PC?  Or maybe the majority of those with influence are Muslim?  I've no idea, but I'm ignoring it.

I was forced to listen to it often enough in real life, and it used to get on my wick then - I don't want it on my telly too.  It's not part of my culture, and I don't want the noise pollution forced on me, thank you.
Shaker

cyberman wrote:
Shaker wrote:
It's relevant as the answer to why 'they' don't broadcast the Angelus every day.


If only someone had asked that question!

Someone like you on July 9th at 12:27pm, you mean:

Quote:
Excellent. When are they going to start broadcasting the Angelus?
Shaker

Ketty wrote:
I was forced to listen to it often enough in real life, and it used to get on my wick then - I don't want it on my telly too. †It's not part of my culture

Neither is Pesach. Nevertheless, on March 24th this year BBC1 broadcast a short and rather nice little programme, hosted by Giles Coren about the meaning and significance of Pesach for Jews such as himself, with nary a word of complaint from you or anybody else as far as I'm aware that it's not part of your culture. It's not part of mine either but I don't begrudge a short programme now and then. I can choose to watch/listen to it or not as I please.

Other things not part of your culture are the religious rituals and festivals of Bali, Sikhism and the neo-pagan festival of Samhain, all part of the BBC's 600+ hours of religious broadcasting per year, the vast majority of it weighted very heavily towards Christianity, despite practising Christians being a minority. (I'm sure I need hardly point out that there was certainly a point in history when Christianity wasn't part of 'our' culture either. So I won't).

Quote:
and I don't want the noise pollution forced on me, thank you.

The actual adhan from an actual minaret, if you're living in the area close to a mosque, can certainly be considered noise pollution every bit as much as can church bells. People who are subjected to this are entitled to complain. This isn't what we're discussing here, though, but the adhan broadcast on TV for a short period, i.e. an adhan that you can turn on if you want to or turn off at will (unlike the aforementioned church bells). Do you really consider a three-minute broadcast on a commercial channel (i.e. not the BBC) at three o'clock in the morning for thirty days that much of an imposition? Especially as you've said that you'll be ignoring it. That being the case, what's the issue?
cyberman

Shaker wrote:
cyberman wrote:
Shaker wrote:
It's relevant as the answer to why 'they' don't broadcast the Angelus every day.


If only someone had asked that question!

Someone like you on July 9th at 12:27pm, you mean:

Quote:
Excellent. When are they going to start broadcasting the Angelus?


No, someone actually asking why they don't broadcast the Angelus every day. Which I didn't.
Shaker

cyberman wrote:
Shaker wrote:
cyberman wrote:
Shaker wrote:
It's relevant as the answer to why 'they' don't broadcast the Angelus every day.


If only someone had asked that question!

Someone like you on July 9th at 12:27pm, you mean:

Quote:
Excellent. When are they going to start broadcasting the Angelus?


No, someone actually asking why they don't broadcast the Angelus every day. Which I didn't.

Because there's no need to. 'They' could of course broadcast the Angelus twice a day for, say, thirty days only, at a time when next to nobody will be watching or listening, and that would be an appropriate parallel to Channel 4's activity here.
cyberman

Shaker wrote:
cyberman wrote:
Shaker wrote:
cyberman wrote:
Shaker wrote:
It's relevant as the answer to why 'they' don't broadcast the Angelus every day.


If only someone had asked that question!

Someone like you on July 9th at 12:27pm, you mean:

Quote:
Excellent. When are they going to start broadcasting the Angelus?


No, someone actually asking why they don't broadcast the Angelus every day. Which I didn't.

Because there's no need to. 'They' could of course broadcast the Angelus twice a day for, say, thirty days only, at a time when next to nobody will be watching or listening, and that would be an appropriate parallel to Channel 4's activity here.


Again, you continue to answer a question no-one has asked. I wonder why.
Shaker

Probably because I'm having to fill in, in view of the fact that you don't seem to have a clue what, if any, point you think you're trying to make here. Your sole contribution to the subject of the thread was the one word:

Quote:
Excellent


followed by the utterly irrelevant and off-topic

Quote:
When are they going to start broadcasting the Angelus?


which is a question I answered days ago.
bnabernard

Every christian could become a muslim, then it would just be muslim against muslim instead of what we have now, alternatively the muslims could become christians and join the fight of christian against christian.

Give the hunchback a new song to sing, the mineret the mineret, made me deaf.

bernard (hug)
cyberman

Shaker wrote:
Probably because I'm having to fill in, in view of the fact that you don't seem to have a clue what, if any, point you think you're trying to make here. Your sole contribution to the subject of the thread was the one word:

Quote:
Excellent


followed by the utterly irrelevant and off-topic

Quote:
When are they going to start broadcasting the Angelus?


which is a question I answered days ago.


I know you addressed that question days ago, which is why I have not asked it again. What is wrong with you?
Shaker

So, in short, your only actual expressed opinion about the subject of the thread (viz., 'Excellent') was made a week ago, and the question you asked then was answered by me on that date as well.

So what is it that you think you're discussing now, precisely?
Ketty

Shaker wrote:
Ketty wrote:
I was forced to listen to it often enough in real life, and it used to get on my wick then - I don't want it on my telly too. †It's not part of my culture

Neither is Pesach. Nevertheless, on March 24th this year BBC1 broadcast a short and rather nice little programme, hosted by Giles Coren about the meaning and significance of Pesach for Jews such as himself, with nary a word of complaint from you or anybody else as far as I'm aware that it's not part of your culture.


Did somebody start a thread about it? †I'm not that bothered about the current topic that it would encourage me to start a thread - although had a thread been started I may (or may not) have jumped in with an opinion, just as I have, here.

Shaker wrote:
Quote:
and I don't want the noise pollution forced on me, thank you.

The actual adhan from an actual minaret, if you're living in the area close to a mosque, can certainly be considered noise pollution every bit as much as can church bells. People who are subjected to this are entitled to complain. This isn't what we're discussing here, though, but the adhan broadcast on TV for a short period, i.e. an adhan that you can turn on if you want to or turn off at will (unlike the aforementioned church bells). Do you really consider a three-minute broadcast on a commercial channel (i.e. not the BBC) at three o'clock in the morning for thirty days that much of an imposition? Especially as you've said that you'll be ignoring it. That being the case, what's the issue?


No issue, just a few inconsequential comments on a message board. † I don't mind church bells because I don't live near any - but if I did, it's part of the English culture (to me, at least) and it wouldn't get on my wick as much as the 'call to prayer'. † Although they could, possibly, †get on my wick if they disturbed my morning lay in. † A bit like the dawn chorus which starts at 4.00am, or even earlier. †I love birdsong, but not at that time in a morning.
bnabernard

Culture, pretty much nail and head, what was culture is being lost swamped in a myriad of other cultures.
Objections come from those who realise that change is happening and they have no control.
Then there are those who want no culture related to the past, a whole new definition and identity.
I think I'll get a cockerall.

bernard (hug)
cyberman

Shaker wrote:

So what is it that you think you're discussing now, precisely?


I am responding to the random and unpredictable points made in your posts, as they arise.
Shaker

cyberman wrote:
Shaker wrote:

So what is it that you think you're discussing now, precisely?


I am responding to the random and unpredictable points made in your posts, as they arise.

There wouldn't have been any had you not derailed the thread (far from the first time: I'm sure it won't be the last) with something utterly irrelevant and off-topic about the Angelus, which had and has absolutely nothing to do with the article in the OP (even though I indulged that derail and answered your question days ago).
cyberman

Shaker wrote:
cyberman wrote:
Shaker wrote:

So what is it that you think you're discussing now, precisely?


I am responding to the random and unpredictable points made in your posts, as they arise.

There wouldn't have been any had you not derailed the thread (far from the first time: I'm sure it won't be the last) with something utterly irrelevant and off-topic about the Angelus, which had and has absolutely nothing to do with the article in the OP (even though I indulged that derail and answered your question days ago).


It was only off topic if your idea of the topic is so narrow as to include only C4's broadcast of the call to prayer. In which case, the only on topic reply would have been "Oh".

My response was on the general point of broadcasting prayers. You then chose to make it all about my use of the word "they", for reasons possibly known to yourself. You then went about your business of lying about what I had said, etc. etc.; and so the tiresome dance of appeasing your pedantry began. I am glad you enjoyed yourself.
Shaker

cyberman wrote:
It was only off topic if your idea of the topic is so narrow as to include only C4's broadcast of the call to prayer. In which case, the only on topic reply would have been "Oh".

Or 'excellent,' which was your actual comment.

Quote:
My response was on the general point of broadcasting prayers.

Of which there is a considerable amount - daily, too.

Quote:
You then chose to make it all about my use of the word "they", for reasons possibly known to yourself.

When you asked 'when are they going to broadcast the Angelus?' I asked you to clarify exactly who 'they' is supposed to be.
Quote:
You then went about your business of lying about what I had said, etc. etc.;

Where did I lie?
Ketty

bnabernard wrote:
Culture, pretty much nail and head, what was culture is being lost swamped in a myriad of other cultures.
Objections come from those who realise that change is happening and they have no control.
Then there are those who want no culture related to the past, a whole new definition and identity.
I think I'll get a cockerall.

bernard (hug)


I think I'll get a blunderbuss.
cyberman

Shaker wrote:
Where did I lie?


Shaker wrote:
cyberman wrote:
Shaker wrote:
It's relevant as the answer to why 'they' don't broadcast the Angelus every day.


If only someone had asked that question!

Someone like you on July 9th at 12:27pm, you mean:

Quote:
Excellent. When are they going to start broadcasting the Angelus?
Shaker

That's a lie, is it? You ask
Quote:
When are they going to start broadcasting the Angelus?


I point this out and this is consdered to be a lie?
cyberman

Shaker wrote:
That's a lie, is it? You ask
Quote:
When are they going to start broadcasting the Angelus?


I point this out and this is consdered to be a lie?


Your lie was in saying that I had asked why they don't broadcast the Angelus. I have never asked that question.
MikeRan

Very good.Nothing wrong with that. It is only during Ramadan (over now) and just for few minutes. Won't hurt us and may remind some Muslims at home who might have forgotten.

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