Archive for nglreturns.myfreeforum.org Nglreturns is a forum to discuss religion, philosophy, ethics etc...

NGLReturns Daily Quiz - Play here!
 



       nglreturns.myfreeforum.org Forum Index -> Christian chat
LeClerc

Creation

Hi all

JamesJah has posted the following

JamesJah wrote:

Now what I am actually referring to is what is available to the almighty and Jesus as material for the creation.

You might not be able to comprehend this but everything is made of light hence my reference to Einstein on this matter.

Can you handle that, without getting bogged down in some other subject, not relevant to the discussion?


Does scripture teach creation ex nihilo or creation out of that which already exists?

LeClerc
Honey 56

Most definitely not, but that is hardly surprising, the bible is a somewhat restricted book to the average JW.

John 1 clearly states this....
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Also this at Genesis 1

3And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

That's good enough for me.  

Honey
Jim

Re: Creation

I doubt you'll get any other answer than the one James has given you, LeClerc. It saddens me that the WTBS seem to try to limit God, who is limitless, and set Him into the framework the Watchtower has decreed for Him.

Since "In the beginning was the Word - Jesus - who is Himself God, then there can be no created thing, not even the Higgs Boson, without His hand on it.

   My understanding of 'begining' seems to differ here from James.
Before the beginning, there was nothing - only God.
That God was the source of all that is, all that can ever be. He did not create Jesus, as the WTBS erroneously believes.
As God is, Jesus is.
As God is, the Spirit is.
As the Spirit is, Jesus is
Eternally completely one.
LeClerc

Hi Honey and Jim

Yes agree with what you both have said even the NWT confirms this

John 1 NWT
3All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

Genesis 1NWT
3And God proceeded to say: “Let light come to be.” Then there came to be light.4After that God saw that the light was good

The answer is in the scriptures James.

LeClerc
bnabernard

Honey 56 wrote:
Most definitely not, but that is hardly surprising, the bible is a somewhat restricted book to the average JW.

John 1 clearly states this....
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Also this at Genesis 1

3And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

That's good enough for me.  

Honey


Honey, are you suggesting God is darkness?

bernard (hug)
bnabernard

Light uncreated, and light created.
Life uncreated, and life imparted or created.

any thoughts?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Light uncreated, and light created.
Life uncreated, and life imparted or created.

any thoughts?

bernard (hug)


Did the created light come forth from the uncreated light or was the created light created out of nothing ?

How many Hebrew and Greek words are translated into English as ''light'' and how do we know which ''light'' refers to uncreated ''light'' and which ''light'' refers to created ''light'' ?

YHWH formed the man out of the dust of the earth, the earth being formed out of the matter which YHWH created out of nothing, and imparted life into the man.

LeClerc
Honey 56

bnabernard wrote:
Honey 56 wrote:
Most definitely not, but that is hardly surprising, the bible is a somewhat restricted book to the average JW.

John 1 clearly states this....
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Also this at Genesis 1

3And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

That's good enough for me.  

Honey


Honey, are you suggesting God is darkness?

bernard (hug)


Why would you think that bernard?

God is everything, so of course He is light, he created from Himself, not from something that existed before He did, because, there is no before Him, He is eternal, the Alpha and Omega, beginning and end.

Honey
JamesJah

It is really sad to see some of you replies falling down on issues which are basic and even the children of JW’s know the answers to.

Light existed at all times  and was in existence long before the earth came into existence because even though earth is matter, matter is also light which one of your scientists showed you all many years ago.

If you read carefully the creation account you will see that the creators came to earth it was without form and void and darkness was upon the earth due to the black cloud of debris that surrounded the earth, then what happen, is quite clear if you read carefully.

Genesis 1:2
Now the earth proved to be formless and waste and there was darkness upon the surface of [the] watery deep; and God’s active force was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters.
Genesis 1:3-5
God proceeded to say: Let light come to be. Then there came to be light. After that God saw that the light was good, and God brought about a division between the light and the darkness. And God began calling the light Day, but the darkness he called Night. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a first day.

For earth only came the first day not the universe

Even that was not a creative day just an earth day.
JamesJah

Where does Jehovah dwell?
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:

Light existed at all times


Can you please provide a definition of ''light''.

For example

Are you referring to the ''light'' which photosensitive cells, called rods and cones in the retina, convert into signals, which are then carried to the brain by the optic nerve.

Was this type of light created or are you saying it has always existed ?

If you are saying it has always existed are you saying that this type of light came forth from YHWH and therefore YHWH is this type of light ?

LeClerc
bnabernard

LeClerc wrote:
Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Light uncreated, and light created.
Life uncreated, and life imparted or created.

any thoughts?

bernard (hug)


Did the created light come forth from the uncreated light or was the created light created out of nothing ?

How many Hebrew and Greek words are translated into English as ''light'' and how do we know which ''light'' refers to uncreated ''light'' and which ''light'' refers to created ''light'' ?

YHWH formed the man out of the dust of the earth, the earth being formed out of the matter which YHWH created out of nothing, and imparted life into the man.

LeClerc


Which has the greater eternal dimension, nothing or God, did God create nothing?
What is the space between all substance?

A definition of nothing, difficult under the circumstances, does it have a begining and an end?

Now the atom appears and disappears out of and into nothing, however the atom is composite, so to say created from nothing might in modern terms be better expressed as from out of nothing as the composition from out of nothing becomes more complex and composed?

If we are to refer to created light then we can look to the burning isolation of the stars, the candles in the darkness of the void.

If we look to the uncreated light then we can look to God who is the light.

Light in as knowledge, the word of God? all knowledge? Almighty?

Word-light-life-God-word-light-life-God-word-light-life?

An eternal cycle untill the darknes comes that cannot discern the light?

Of course we can expect the greeks to come along and translate the word of God,  what did they know, as much as I might land on my jacksee, spend a jacksee,(£5) or come on my jacksee.

Hence we have the greek who give us Jesus, when LeClerc we know it would be better as Yoshuah?

One might say that the greek has placed an different son of david at the city gate, Absalom ?

bernard (hug)
JamesJah

It is not what I say but what do the scriptures say, I appreciate you do like to have a personal opinion on these matters but as a JW we hold Jehovah’s opinion above that of our own.

1 Timothy 6:16
The one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see. To him be honour and might everlasting. Amen.

As for the type of light the earth received it was sufficient to see with, which would be coming from the sun which was called the greater light for day, because at that time it was defused light penetrating the water canopy above the earth which is referred to in the next verses of Genesis

Most humans do not really appreciate that the universe is full of light, it is just that our eyes made the way they are can not see it or the spirit persons that move about in it
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
It is not what I say but what do the scriptures say, I appreciate you do like to have a personal opinion on these matters but as a JW we hold Jehovah’s opinion above that of our own.

1 Timothy 6:16
The one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see. To him be honour and might everlasting. Amen.


Well the JW has the opion that the One you are referring to above is The Messiah, Y'shua.

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002155

LeClerc
JamesJah

LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
It is not what I say but what do the scriptures say, I appreciate you do like to have a personal opinion on these matters but as a JW we hold Jehovah’s opinion above that of our own.

1 Timothy 6:16
The one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see. To him be honour and might everlasting. Amen.


Well the JW has the opion that the One you are referring to above is The Messiah, Y'shua.

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002155

LeClerc


Why is this a problem?

immortal” or “immortality” do not occur in the Hebrew Scriptures, which do show, however, that Jehovah God, as the Source of all life, is not subject to death, hence, is immortal.
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
It is not what I say but what do the scriptures say, I appreciate you do like to have a personal opinion on these matters but as a JW we hold Jehovah’s opinion above that of our own.

1 Timothy 6:16
The one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see. To him be honour and might everlasting. Amen.


Well the JW has the opion that the One you are referring to above is The Messiah, Y'shua.

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002155

LeClerc


Why is this a problem?

immortal” or “immortality” do not occur in the Hebrew Scriptures, which do show, however, that Jehovah God, as the Source of all life, is not subject to death, hence, is immortal.


No problem James for me except for you

For this reason, when describing him as “the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords,” 1 Timothy 6:15, 16 shows that Y'shua is distinct from all such other kings and lords in that he is “the one alone having immortality.”

Now according to Timothy where does the one who is identified as the one alone having immortality dwell, who you say is YHWH.

LeClerc
JamesJah

LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
It is not what I say but what do the scriptures say, I appreciate you do like to have a personal opinion on these matters but as a JW we hold Jehovah’s opinion above that of our own.

1 Timothy 6:16
The one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see. To him be honour and might everlasting. Amen.


Well the JW has the opion that the One you are referring to above is The Messiah, Y'shua.

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002155

LeClerc


Why is this a problem?

immortal” or “immortality” do not occur in the Hebrew Scriptures, which do show, however, that Jehovah God, as the Source of all life, is not subject to death, hence, is immortal.


No problem James for me except for you

For this reason, when describing him as “the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords,” 1 Timothy 6:15, 16 shows that Y'shua is distinct from all such other kings and lords in that he is “the one alone having immortality.”

Now according to Timothy where does the one who is identified as the one alone having immortality dwell, who you say is YHWH.

LeClerc


When did Jesus get immortality and where does he sit until his enemies are made a stool for his feet?
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
It is not what I say but what do the scriptures say, I appreciate you do like to have a personal opinion on these matters but as a JW we hold Jehovah’s opinion above that of our own.

1 Timothy 6:16
The one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see. To him be honour and might everlasting. Amen.


Well the JW has the opion that the One you are referring to above is The Messiah, Y'shua.

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002155

LeClerc


Why is this a problem?

immortal” or “immortality” do not occur in the Hebrew Scriptures, which do show, however, that Jehovah God, as the Source of all life, is not subject to death, hence, is immortal.


No problem James for me except for you

For this reason, when describing him as “the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords,” 1 Timothy 6:15, 16 shows that Y'shua is distinct from all such other kings and lords in that he is “the one alone having immortality.”

Now according to Timothy where does the one who is identified as the one alone having immortality dwell, who you say is YHWH.

LeClerc


When did Jesus get immortality and where does he sit until his enemies are made a stool for his feet?


1 Timothy 6
ὁ μόνος ἔχων ἀθανασίαν

NWT
the one alone having immortality

How many have immortality James ?

LeClerc
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:


If you read carefully the creation account you will see that the creators came to earth it was without form and void and darkness was upon the earth due to the black cloud of debris that surrounded the earth, then what happen, is quite clear if you read carefully.

Genesis 1:2


You are assuming a great deal from the account at Genesis, where does it say that the creators, just happen to stumble across the earth?
My bible says that God (El-O-Him/plural) created it.

Please tell me you don't believe in that stupid gap theory James?
That would be just too weird!

Honey
cyberman

LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:

Light existed at all times


Can you please provide a definition of ''light''.


And a definition of "times" for that matter. Are you simply saying that light and time were created at the same ..erm..time? That time and light are both part of God's creation?
JamesJah

LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
It is not what I say but what do the scriptures say, I appreciate you do like to have a personal opinion on these matters but as a JW we hold Jehovah’s opinion above that of our own.

1 Timothy 6:16
The one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see. To him be honour and might everlasting. Amen.


Well the JW has the opion that the One you are referring to above is The Messiah, Y'shua.

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002155

LeClerc


Why is this a problem?

immortal” or “immortality” do not occur in the Hebrew Scriptures, which do show, however, that Jehovah God, as the Source of all life, is not subject to death, hence, is immortal.


No problem James for me except for you

For this reason, when describing him as “the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords,” 1 Timothy 6:15, 16 shows that Y'shua is distinct from all such other kings and lords in that he is “the one alone having immortality.”

Now according to Timothy where does the one who is identified as the one alone having immortality dwell, who you say is YHWH.

LeClerc


When did Jesus get immortality and where does he sit until his enemies are made a stool for his feet?


1 Timothy 6
ὁ μόνος ἔχων ἀθανασίαν

NWT
the one alone having immortality

How many have immortality James ?

LeClerc


Who are given immortality? and by whom?
JamesJah

Honey 56 wrote:
JamesJah wrote:


If you read carefully the creation account you will see that the creators came to earth it was without form and void and darkness was upon the earth due to the black cloud of debris that surrounded the earth, then what happen, is quite clear if you read carefully.

Genesis 1:2


You are assuming a great deal from the account at Genesis, where does it say that the creators, just happen to stumble across the earth?
My bible says that God (El-O-Him/plural) created it.

Please tell me you don't believe in that stupid gap theory James?
That would be just too weird!

Honey


Just because you do not comprehend something does not make it stupid that is an expression many use to cover their lack of understanding.

One, God does not say when he created the universe, just that he did.

Genesis 1:1
In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

When was the beginning?
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
It is not what I say but what do the scriptures say, I appreciate you do like to have a personal opinion on these matters but as a JW we hold Jehovah’s opinion above that of our own.

1 Timothy 6:16
The one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see. To him be honour and might everlasting. Amen.


Well the JW has the opion that the One you are referring to above is The Messiah, Y'shua.

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002155

LeClerc


Why is this a problem?

immortal” or “immortality” do not occur in the Hebrew Scriptures, which do show, however, that Jehovah God, as the Source of all life, is not subject to death, hence, is immortal.


No problem James for me except for you

For this reason, when describing him as “the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords,” 1 Timothy 6:15, 16 shows that Y'shua is distinct from all such other kings and lords in that he is “the one alone having immortality.”

Now according to Timothy where does the one who is identified as the one alone having immortality dwell, who you say is YHWH.

LeClerc


When did Jesus get immortality and where does he sit until his enemies are made a stool for his feet?


1 Timothy 6
ὁ μόνος ἔχων ἀθανασίαν

NWT
the one alone having immortality

How many have immortality James ?

LeClerc


Who are given immortality? and by whom?


1 John 1
2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.

Was never given James, eternally has.

LeClerc
JamesJah

cyberman wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:

Light existed at all times


Can you please provide a definition of ''light''.


And a definition of "times" for that matter. Are you simply saying that light and time were created at the same ..erm..time? That time and light are both part of God's creation?


Look again at the place where the creator always lived from time indefinite.
JamesJah

Quote:

1 John 1
2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.

Was never given James, eternally has.

LeClerc


Revelation 5:11, 12
I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice:
The Lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honour and glory and blessing.

To receive from whom?
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:
Honey 56 wrote:
JamesJah wrote:


If you read carefully the creation account you will see that the creators came to earth it was without form and void and darkness was upon the earth due to the black cloud of debris that surrounded the earth, then what happen, is quite clear if you read carefully.

Genesis 1:2


You are assuming a great deal from the account at Genesis, where does it say that the creators, just happen to stumble across the earth?
My bible says that God (El-O-Him/plural) created it.

Please tell me you don't believe in that stupid gap theory James?
That would be just too weird!

Honey


Just because you do not comprehend something does not make it stupid that is an expression many use to cover their lack of understanding.

One, God does not say when he created the universe, just that he did.

Genesis 1:1
In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

When was the beginning?


I do understand the gap theory James, and it is unscriptual.
The last thing God created was Man and Woman according to the bible account, if the fossil layer was formed some time between the animal and human creation that would mean that there was death and decay before the fall, this is not possible! Death entered he world because of Adam and Eve's sin.

Can you refute this by the use of scripture james?



honey
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
Quote:

1 John 1
2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.

Was never given James, eternally has.

LeClerc


Revelation 5:11, 12
I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice:
The Lamb that was slaughtered is worthy to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honour and glory and blessing.

To receive from whom?


The left hand to the right hand.

LeClerc
JamesJah

All things Honey had been created to die, to obtain life and live forever one needed to eat from the tree of life,

Adam like many humans was not too bright when it came to obedience, the smart money was eating of the tree of life while he had the chance.

Then no one today thinks to drink from the elixir of life now do they?
LeClerc

James

JamesJah wrote:
All things Honey had been created to die


Did YHWH create Adam and Eve to sin ?

LeClerc
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:
All things Honey had been created to die, to obtain life and live forever one needed to eat from the tree of life,


So once again the WTBTS knows better than God's word?

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned—
Romans 5

20Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, 21the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.
Romans 8

Honey
JamesJah

LeClerc wrote:
James

JamesJah wrote:
All things Honey had been created to die


Did YHWH create Adam and Eve to sin ?

LeClerc


The option is the same for you as it was for Adam he could have chosen life, the choice was his.

Now you have the same choice, independent thinking or obedience to God’s will for mankind with life in view.

Matthew 7:21
Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
James

JamesJah wrote:
All things Honey had been created to die


Did YHWH create Adam and Eve to sin ?

LeClerc


The option is the same for you as it was for Adam he could have chosen life, the choice was his.



So what you have said

JamesJah wrote:
All things Honey had been created to die


is not true is it James.

Adam had a choice, to choose life or death, so all things were not created to die were they James .

LeClerc
JamesJah

LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
James

JamesJah wrote:
All things Honey had been created to die


Did YHWH create Adam and Eve to sin ?

LeClerc


The option is the same for you as it was for Adam he could have chosen life, the choice was his.



So what you have said

JamesJah wrote:
All things Honey had been created to die


is not true is it James.

Adam had a choice, to choose life or death, so all things were not created to die were they James .

LeClerc


If they had not been created to die why did they die, what was the tree of life for?
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
James

JamesJah wrote:
All things Honey had been created to die


Did YHWH create Adam and Eve to sin ?

LeClerc


The option is the same for you as it was for Adam he could have chosen life, the choice was his.



So what you have said

JamesJah wrote:
All things Honey had been created to die


is not true is it James.

Adam had a choice, to choose life or death, so all things were not created to die were they James .

LeClerc


If they had not been created to die why did they die, what was the tree of life for?


Death came to them because of their sin, because of their sin YHWH prevented them from having access to the tree of life.

Therefore they were not created to die, they died as a reult of their disobedience.

So what you have said

JamesJah wrote:
All things Honey had been created to die


is not true is it James.

LeClerc
JamesJah

If Jehovah had not created the to die, how is it that they did die, did he create dyeing after they sinned or was it the restriction from the tree that would have given them life the reason for their death, even though that restriction came as a result of sin there means of life was not internal but dependant on something external the tree of life.

Man is still born to die but now he can choose life by means of the ransom, but like the tree of life he must now drink the waters of life. John 17: 3
bnabernard

An interesting point that might creep in here is the dead burying the dead?

bernard (hug)
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
James

JamesJah wrote:
All things Honey had been created to die


Did YHWH create Adam and Eve to sin ?

LeClerc


The option is the same for you as it was for Adam he could have chosen life, the choice was his.



So what you have said

JamesJah wrote:
All things Honey had been created to die


is not true is it James.

Adam had a choice, to choose life or death, so all things were not created to die were they James .

LeClerc


If they had not been created to die why did they die, what was the tree of life for?


James, will you continue to ignore Gods word?....

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned—
Romans 5

20Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, 21the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.
Romans 8


These scriptures prove beyond a doubt that the gap theory is unscriptual, how could death and decay have entered the world before humanity was created?

The WTBTS are wrong about this, and how much more?

Honey
Honey 56

This is part of God's judgement for Adam's disobedience...

19By the sweat of your brow

you will eat your food

until you return to the ground,

since from it you were taken;

for dust you are

and to dust you will return.”


Which proves that the Lord God did not intend to let them die originally, death was part of their punishment for their disobedience.

Honey
Honey 56

bnabernard wrote:
An interesting point that might creep in here is the dead burying the dead?

bernard (hug)


Hi Bernard.

59He said to another man, “Follow me.”
But the man replied, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.”
60Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”
61Still another said, “I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say good-by to my family.”
62Jesus replied, “No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.”


Compare

11“This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.
Luke 8


Do you see how these two scriptures are connected Bernard?
The ones with a noble and good heart  produce a crop by first hearing the word, then believing it, commiting their life to it, then doing something positive with it, like going into the world with the message of God's Kingdom and sharing the Gospel, planting more seeds that God can harvest.


Honey
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
If Jehovah had not created the to die, how is it that they did die, did he create dyeing after they sinned or was it the restriction from the tree that would have given them life the reason for their death, even though that restriction came as a result of sin there means of life was not internal but dependant on something external the tree of life.

Man is still born to die but now he can choose life by means of the ransom, but like the tree of life he must now drink the waters of life. John 17: 3


Can you please provide a scripture where YHWH instructs Adam to eat from The Tree of Life, because if he didn't, he would die ?

LeClerc
bnabernard

The word of God or the Knowledge that is God sometimes refered to as the light unpercieved by the darkness. Recieving the knowledge of God through His word, comming into the light.
One might walk into a libarary (but one might not be able to spell it) lts do that again, one might walk into a building full of informarive information of great detail but having walked into the 'light' does not give one automatic knowledge of all the information available.
Surrounded by the knowledge of the ages and sagesa man is faced with an impossible task, to know all the things that are written, to take in all the knowledge that is available to man, to learn everything even beyond what man knows.
Well, man might walk into a smaller building, in fact he will find many smaller buildings arround with less to learn, and as he learns in/from the smaller building he will come across reference points of greater information that refer him to the greater building.

Fine I think we got the picture there (but of course the darkness does not percieve the light so some might not get there)

Do you notice how your batteries run down, do you recall the teachings of scripture of how mans days have 'run down'.

Was man created to die?

The animals and the flora and forna, they were created having a life span that would 'run out' man himself could be classed the same today as the the animal or the plant, springing up out of the ground to finally wither and return to the ground. Like a mud hut crumbling.

What seperates man from the animal as he was created, he recieved life from God, life as in light as in the word of God, Knowledge.
Now being cut off from that knowledge by ignoring the bold print on the lable, he becomes like the animal cut off from the mains with a battery that is slowly running out from generation to generation.

So lets examine the knowledge of man to see what is worth keeping and imagine it as a libiary ( ) lets go in and see what is what, look there are useless books full of stupidity, lets throw them away because they are not worth keeping, lets have a clear out of the books that are worthless and keep the books that are good for us.

........

Moses struck the rock and water flowed, he had been told to talk to the rock. But Moses was plugged into the mains.


bernard (hug)

I've tried to keep it short cos I got company comming so I trust that where there is light in the darkness then perception will do the rest.
Honey 56

Quote:
[quote="bnabernard:79036"]

Was man created to die?

The animals and the flora and forna, they were created having a life span that would 'run out' man himself could be classed the same today as the the animal or the plant, springing up out of the ground to finally wither and return to the ground. Like a mud hut crumbling.

What seperates man from the animal as he was created, he recieved life from God, life as in light as in the word of God, Knowledge.
Now being cut off from that knowledge by ignoring the bold print on the lable, he becomes like the animal cut off from the mains with a battery that is slowly running out from generation to generation


bernard (hug)

I've tried to keep it short cos I got company comming so I trust that where there is light in the darkness then perception will do the rest.


Hi Bernard,
Thank you for your post, it is very interesting, is there any chance of some scriptures to back up your understanding.
When you are not so busy perhaps?
Many thanks.
Honey
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
The word of God or the Knowledge that is God sometimes refered to as the light unpercieved by the darkness. Recieving the knowledge of God through His word, comming into the light.
One might walk into a libarary (but one might not be able to spell it) lts do that again, one might walk into a building full of informarive information of great detail but having walked into the 'light' does not give one automatic knowledge of all the information available.
Surrounded by the knowledge of the ages and sagesa man is faced with an impossible task, to know all the things that are written, to take in all the knowledge that is available to man, to learn everything even beyond what man knows.
Well, man might walk into a smaller building, in fact he will find many smaller buildings arround with less to learn, and as he learns in/from the smaller building he will come across reference points of greater information that refer him to the greater building.

Fine I think we got the picture there (but of course the darkness does not percieve the light so some might not get there)

Do you notice how your batteries run down, do you recall the teachings of scripture of how mans days have 'run down'.

Was man created to die?

The animals and the flora and forna, they were created having a life span that would 'run out' man himself could be classed the same today as the the animal or the plant, springing up out of the ground to finally wither and return to the ground. Like a mud hut crumbling.

What seperates man from the animal as he was created, he recieved life from God, life as in light as in the word of God, Knowledge.
Now being cut off from that knowledge by ignoring the bold print on the lable, he becomes like the animal cut off from the mains with a battery that is slowly running out from generation to generation.

So lets examine the knowledge of man to see what is worth keeping and imagine it as a libiary ( ) lets go in and see what is what, look there are useless books full of stupidity, lets throw them away because they are not worth keeping, lets have a clear out of the books that are worthless and keep the books that are good for us.

........

Moses struck the rock and water flowed, he had been told to talk to the rock. But Moses was plugged into the mains.


bernard (hug)

I've tried to keep it short cos I got company comming so I trust that where there is light in the darkness then perception will do the rest.


That was an interesting read Bernie.

Genesis 1
31 God saw everything that he had made, and indeed it was very good.

Would you define death as being part of what God saw and it was very good ?

LeClerc
bnabernard

LeClerc

You may recall the small library and the bigger library, or simply a book, one has to take the understanding that the smaller understanding leads to greater understanding, If God says it's good, but I have a frown on account of it who is the wiser of the two?

What good do you see in the flood, was not evil destroyed simply to raise it's head once more, was the world post flood populated in it's entirety by righteous people to the number of eight? Where are the eight now?

Was God entreated to give consideration to the ofspring of fallen angels?, when did He know that Angels would rebel?

Got to go now. Going to get in a mini sub and explore the ocean.
bernard (hug)
JamesJah

LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
If Jehovah had not created the to die, how is it that they did die, did he create dyeing after they sinned or was it the restriction from the tree that would have given them life the reason for their death, even though that restriction came as a result of sin there means of life was not internal but dependant on something external the tree of life.

Man is still born to die but now he can choose life by means of the ransom, but like the tree of life he must now drink the waters of life. John 17: 3


Can you please provide a scripture where YHWH instructs Adam to eat from The Tree of Life, because if he didn't, he would die ?

LeClerc


No! LerClerc But, I can find one that sais he has to be removed from the garden, so he can not get to the tree of life and live forever, OK
bnabernard

LeClerc (hug)

An addendum, might even be an addition, could even be a PS,  Yeshuah replied and said , why do you call me good, only God is good.  

Bernard (hug)

Honey, (hug) what can I say, how can I be of service to you, can I open the eyes of those who see, what is it that is required of me to prove from scripture?

Here is one, they will pour over scripture looking for a sign, but none shall be given them but the sign of Jonah.

When one steps out of the darkness into the light one is blinded, one covers their eyes, shields them, and slowly and gradualy they they let the light in, but none can face the whole light, none can look directly into the face of the light.

Lets take ''all knowledge'' can every mind have 'all knowledge' does Almighty God who knows the hairs on my head have all knowledge, do I need to know how many hairs I have on my head.
I could if I did need to know, ask Almighty GOD.

bernard (hug)
Honey 56

bnabernard wrote:
LeClerc (hug)

An addendum, might even be an addition, could even be a PS,  Yeshuah replied and said , why do you call me good, only God is good.  

Bernard (hug)

Honey, (hug) what can I say, how can I be of service to you, can I open the eyes of those who see, what is it that is required of me to prove from scripture?

Here is one, they will pour over scripture looking for a sign, but none shall be given them but the sign of Jonah.

When one steps out of the darkness into the light one is blinded, one covers their eyes, shields them, and slowly and gradualy they they let the light in, but none can face the whole light, none can look directly into the face of the light.

Lets take ''all knowledge'' can every mind have 'all knowledge' does Almighty God who knows the hairs on my head have all knowledge, do I need to know how many hairs I have on my head.
I could if I did need to know, ask Almighty GOD.

bernard (hug)


Thought not!!!!

Shall we take that as a no then, you cannot back up what you understand with scriptures.
Honey
Honey 56

Dear Bernard,
Here is a scripture straight from Gods word...

11Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
Acts.17.

It is good to be like the Bereans and examine the scriptures everyday to see if what people tell you in the name of God Almighty is true.

We should never accept what people tell us unquestioningly, no matter how authoritative they may appear, it just results in being lead away from the true message of God's word.

honey
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
If Jehovah had not created the to die, how is it that they did die, did he create dyeing after they sinned or was it the restriction from the tree that would have given them life the reason for their death, even though that restriction came as a result of sin there means of life was not internal but dependant on something external the tree of life.

Man is still born to die but now he can choose life by means of the ransom, but like the tree of life he must now drink the waters of life. John 17: 3


Can you please provide a scripture where YHWH instructs Adam to eat from The Tree of Life, because if he didn't, he would die ?

LeClerc


No! LerClerc But, I can find one that sais he has to be removed from the garden, so he can not get to the tree of life and live forever, OK


So do you suppose that was what God intended all along, or was that a judgement brought about by Adam and Eve's disobedience to God?

Honey
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
If Jehovah had not created the to die, how is it that they did die, did he create dyeing after they sinned or was it the restriction from the tree that would have given them life the reason for their death, even though that restriction came as a result of sin there means of life was not internal but dependant on something external the tree of life.

Man is still born to die but now he can choose life by means of the ransom, but like the tree of life he must now drink the waters of life. John 17: 3


Can you please provide a scripture where YHWH instructs Adam to eat from The Tree of Life, because if he didn't, he would die ?

LeClerc


No! LerClerc But, I can find one that sais he has to be removed from the garden, so he can not get to the tree of life and live forever, OK


Why do you think you cannot find a scripture where YHWH instructs Adam to eat from The Tree of Life, because if he didn't, he would die ?

LeClerc
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
LeClerc (hug)

An addendum, might even be an addition, could even be a PS,  Yeshuah replied and said , why do you call me good, only God is good.  

Bernard (hug)


Well Bernie this just proves Y'shua was more than a man, who though was born of a woman, came forth from YHWH, and was made flesh.

Y'shua is challenging the one calling him good, ''if only God is good why do you call me good do you know who I am''.

Y'shua did not rebuke the man (who was not good) for calling Him good.

LeClerc
bnabernard

The man was not good?, yet the all knowing creator of man looked at His creation and called it good?

Bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
The man was not good?, yet the all knowing creator of man looked at His creation and called it good?

Bernard (hug)


When YHWH looked at his creation and saw that it was good, had the man eaten from the tree which he was commanded not to eat of ?

LeClerc
bnabernard

LeClerc wrote:
Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
The man was not good?, yet the all knowing creator of man looked at His creation and called it good?

Bernard (hug)


When YHWH looked at his creation and saw that it was good, had the man eaten from the tree which he was commanded not to eat of ?

LeClerc


The man had done everything that he would do in the eyes of an all knowing God who knows the hairs on our heads, or is there another explanation?

Bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi James

bnabernard wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
The man was not good?, yet the all knowing creator of man looked at His creation and called it good?

Bernard (hug)


When YHWH looked at his creation and saw that it was good, had the man eaten from the tree which he was commanded not to eat of ?

LeClerc


The man had done everything that he would do in the eyes of an all knowing God who knows the hairs on our heads, or is there another explanation?

Bernard (hug)


Does that include being washed clean in the blood of the lamb ?

LeClerc
bnabernard

 Leclerc God knows everything bernie on the other hand.....

bernard (hug)
bnabernard

I suppose another question is, did the all knowing God know beforehand the fall of the angels, the Nephlin, and the flood, the subsequent return to bad practice, and the well publicised Armegedon, the internment of more spirits for a thousand years and the subsequo once again introduce bad practice, and then, take a breath, a final return to what is good on a clean sheet?

Was there a God that did not have foreknowledge of these things and what form did that God take.

If there is a collective of gods that serve the all knowing God, could that collective be a God, (combined knowledge)

A man creaated out of the earth, now though my old man used to call me a little sod, I don't think I look like one?

However, what Almighty God the infinite being responsible for all creation see's and knows is sealed in His knowledge, what is sealed in my knowledge is the need to be comfortable in a world ruled in the manner aproved by that God and an acceptance, given the alternative, that it will be productive under His arrangement towards a happy and contented existence.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
I suppose another question is, did the all knowing God know beforehand the fall of the angels, the Nephlin, and the flood, the subsequent return to bad practice, and the well publicised Armegedon, the internment of more spirits for a thousand years and the subsequo once again introduce bad practice, and then, take a breath, a final return to what is good on a clean sheet?

Was there a God that did not have foreknowledge of these things and what form did that God take.

If there is a collective of gods that serve the all knowing God, could that collective be a God, (combined knowledge)

A man creaated out of the earth, now though my old man used to call me a little sod, I don't think I look like one?

However, what Almighty God the infinite being responsible for all creation see's and knows is sealed in His knowledge, what is sealed in my knowledge is the need to be comfortable in a world ruled in the manner aproved by that God and an acceptance, given the alternative, that it will be productive under His arrangement towards a happy and contented existence.

bernard (hug)



Jeremiah 25
6And do not walk after other gods in order to serve them and to bow down to them,

According to the Messianic Writings the discples walked after, served and bowed down to The Messiah Y'shua.

If Y'shua is not YHWH manifest in the flesh, then the whole of His ministry and teachings are in breach of Torah.

There is only ONE conclusion.

Y'shua is YHWH manifest in the flesh.

and in Him, and only Him, are the answers to all the questions you ask.

John 1 Common English Bible
3 Everything came into being through the Word, and without the Word nothing came into being.

LeClerc
bnabernard

Yeshuah, was made of clay in as much as he was flesh which is made of clay, his sustanance came from the produce of the earth, he had the normal digestive and toiletery functions of man, if The Father Almighty God chose to be with him then he could be compared to Moses, a man so chosen by God that he could be decisive over the performance of a miracle, i.e. he struck the stone and water flowed when God had advised him to speak to the rock.

God too is in the angels, oft refered to as angels of light,

With insight one will understand that one does not walk after the son but walks with him in subjection to the Father.

Bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Yeshuah, was made of clay in as much as he was flesh which is made of clay, his sustanance came from the produce of the earth, he had the normal digestive and toiletery functions of man, if The Father Almighty God chose to be with him then he could be compared to Moses, a man so chosen by God that he could be decisive over the performance of a miracle, i.e. he struck the stone and water flowed when God had advised him to speak to the rock.

God too is in the angels, oft refered to as angels of light,

With insight one will understand that one does not walk after the son but walks with him in subjection to the Father.

Bernard (hug)


With all repect Bernie.

You say Y'shua is Elohiym but not YHWH Elohiym

That creates a major problem

YHWH commands

Jeremiah 25
6And do not walk after other gods in order to serve them and to bow down to them,

According to the Messianic Writings the discples walked after, served and bowed down to The Messiah Y'shua.

If Y'shua is not YHWH manifest in the flesh, then the whole of His ministry and teachings are in breach of Torah.

There is only ONE conclusion.

Y'shua is YHWH manifest in the flesh.

and in Him, and only Him, are the answers to all the questions you ask.

John 1 Common English Bible
3 Everything came into being through the Word, and without the Word nothing came into being.

Only the Logos came forth from YHWH and was made flesh.

All things that exist were created through the Logos.

Moses was flesh but came from man's seed, Y'shua though born of a woman was not born of mans seed but the Logos became flesh through the womb of a woman.

LeClerc
bnabernard

LeClerc

Oh dear, apart from woman being the rib of Adam, flesh is flesh, does not die once but many times during it's existence,
Then we move on to those who gave us jesus to worship, rather than Yeshuah to learn from and walk with.

Lets examine the words said by Jesus, nothing ascends other than it descends first (words like that) then compare what he said to the rising of Moses who he met on the mountain with Elijah, another risen, were these in fact angels who had come down from heaven, perhaps maybe they were the spirits of the Nephlin ame as seeds in the loins of fallen angels?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
LeClerc
Oh dear, apart from woman being the rib of Adam, flesh is flesh, bernard (hug)


Think about this Bernie are you now saying Mary was sinless.

LeClerc
bnabernard

Have I mentioned mary>

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Have I mentioned mary>

bernard (hug)


Sorry Bernie if I have misunderstood

I posted the following

LeCler wrote
''Moses was flesh but came from man's seed, Y'shua though born of a woman was not born of mans seed but the Logos became flesh through the womb of a woman''.

To which you replied

Bernie wrote
''Oh dear, apart from woman being the rib of Adam, flesh is flesh'',

Now I assumed we weret talking about the same woman, the one who gave birth to Y'shua The Messiah.

If I have misunderstood I apologize.

LeClerc
bnabernard

LeClerc

I was refering to all flesh being human from one origion, so primarily we come from the dust-flesh-Adam-Eve- humans.

Now some would say that the ova does not carry the sin as Adam was resposible, that sin is carried forward in the sperm.

We'll perhaps have to wait and see what happens when they finish their experiments with womens bone marrow whereby they give women the ability to propergate their own children without the need for a man.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
LeClerc

I was refering to all flesh being human from one origion, so primarily we come from the dust-flesh-Adam-Eve- humans.

Now some would say that the ova does not carry the sin as Adam was resposible, that sin is carried forward in the sperm.

We'll perhaps have to wait and see what happens when they finish their experiments with womens bone marrow whereby they give women the ability to propergate their own children without the need for a man.

bernard (hug)


The Logos became flesh Bernie, The Spirit being clothed with the flesh.

LeClerc
bnabernard

So what we got then, flesh that is not flesh?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
So what we got then, flesh that is not flesh?

bernard (hug)


What we have got Bernie is the eternal life which appeared in the flesh

1 John 1
1 That which was from the beginning which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.

LeClerc
bnabernard

And Elijah, Enoch, and Moses?

Had they no representation of eternal life?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
And Elijah, Enoch, and Moses?

Had they no representation of eternal life?

bernard (hug)


One at at time.

According to the Tanakh, did Moses die and was he buried ?

LeClerc
bnabernard

Hi LeClerc

Quite interesting are the similarities of Moses to Yeshuah, I wonder what similarities there are with the others, perhaps Melechizedeck could also be brought into the frame?
And any others that we can think of.


bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Hi LeClerc

Quite interesting are the similarities of Moses to Yeshuah, I wonder what similarities there are with the others, perhaps Melechizedeck could also be brought into the frame?
And any others that we can think of.


bernard (hug)


Think it would be helpful if we first answered the question.

According to the Tanakh, did Moses die and was he buried ?

LeClerc
bnabernard

LeClerck

Why?
And to help us consder 'why' I'll mention Elisha.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
LeClerck

Why?
And to help us consder 'why' I'll mention Elisha.

bernard (hug)


You are beginning to sound like James.

Why Bernie, because if Moses died and was buried who buried Moses body ?

LeClerc
bnabernard

LeClerck

One of us is starting to resemble JJ in as much as the burial of Moses compared to the non burial of Enoch and Elijah does not, in my opinion lead us to an answer but rather, sends us in another direction.

Coparrisons of Moses to Yeshuah in that Moses was intered under Gods protection and raised up after a settlement with Satan have some validty I assume, but compared to the non death of the likes of Enoch and Elijah the debate being inspired palls in significance.
All had a common bond in their ascention to heaven.

I mention Elisha as a consideration due to his protected status whilest buried, and also to highlight the understanding of 'being buried' as in the nature of being entombed, that is to say, to detract our thinking from the connection of being placed in a hole and covered with dirt.

However as for myself sounding like JJ then that must be expected from time to time though you will not find the Pauline culture shared and difference does exist when speaking of the Oness of God along the lines of the Jewish teaching.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
LeClerck
to the non death of the likes of Enoch and Elijah the debate being inspired palls in significance.
All had a common bond in their ascention to heaven.
bernard (hug)


Are you saying Enoch and Elijah never died but were taken straight to heaven ?

Hebrews 11
13 All these people were still living by faith when they died.

Would you like to list the names of who the all are in the above passage.

LeClerc
bnabernard

LeClerc wrote:
Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Have I mentioned mary>

bernard (hug)


Sorry Bernie if I have misunderstood

I posted the following

LeCler wrote
''Moses was flesh but came from man's seed, Y'shua though born of a woman was not born of mans seed but the Logos became flesh through the womb of a woman''.

To which you replied

Bernie wrote
''Oh dear, apart from woman being the rib of Adam, flesh is flesh'',

Now I assumed we weret talking about the same woman, the one who gave birth to Y'shua The Messiah.

If I have misunderstood I apologize.

LeClerc



Quote:
Hebrews 11
13 All these people were still living by faith when they died.



Did Yeshuah recieve flesh destined to die, as in the case of recieving flesh from his mother, destined to die because of original sin?

Or was Yeshuah born, not of flesh but of the spirit?

When the umbilical cord was cut, did there still remain an umbilical cord to the dust as in growth through the eating of food?

Its been suggested that Yeshuah ate meat, at on the menu for man before his fall, or something allowed to imperfect man post his fall.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Have I mentioned mary>

bernard (hug)


Sorry Bernie if I have misunderstood

I posted the following

LeCler wrote
''Moses was flesh but came from man's seed, Y'shua though born of a woman was not born of mans seed but the Logos became flesh through the womb of a woman''.

To which you replied

Bernie wrote
''Oh dear, apart from woman being the rib of Adam, flesh is flesh'',

Now I assumed we weret talking about the same woman, the one who gave birth to Y'shua The Messiah.

If I have misunderstood I apologize.

LeClerc



Quote:
Hebrews 11
13 All these people were still living by faith when they died.



Did Yeshuah recieve flesh destined to die, as in the case of recieving flesh from his mother, destined to die because of original sin?

Or was Yeshuah born, not of flesh but of the spirit?

When the umbilical cord was cut, did there still remain an umbilical cord to the dust as in growth through the eating of food?

Its been suggested that Yeshuah ate meat, at on the menu for man before his fall, or something allowed to imperfect man post his fall.

bernard (hug)


The woman was formed from that taken from the man's rib, she was not born of a woman yet she was as the man said.

Genesis 2
23 The man said,“This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’for she was taken out of man.


Did the sin they commit come from within or did the temptation come from without.

After they had disobeyed YHWH was there still a possibility of their flesh and bones still being able to live forever ?

The reason Y'shua laid down His life is because he laid down his life voluntarily

John 10
18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again.

LeClerc
JamesJah

Is it a matter of which heaven we are peaking about?

Ancient meanings of words has lead in time to some miss understanding due to shades of meaning that are not too clear now.

John 3:13
Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.

Elijah was lifted up in to the sky by a whirlwind which is also called the heavens; he was also dropped off some other place he did not die, where as Enoch was translated so as not to have the pangs of death, but he still died.
bnabernard

Quote:
John 10
18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again.


Good, Then we have to come to some conclusion as to what it was that Yeshuah had authority over.
Flesh he had authority over, and as flesh is perishable he could lay it down.
Life however? God is life, life is uncreated it is and can be what it likes according to what God wants it to be and in Adams creation was imparted to him, breathed into his lifeless form fashioned from the dust.
Therefore, Yeshuah though he could lay down the flesh he could not force God to take back the life from the flesh and as he was not deserving of losing the said life the flesh laid down had no option but to stand again.

James speaks of translation and I think others refer to parosia or some such. So here I reflect on the umbilical cord that confines a man to be connected to his birthplace in the form of the earth and unless that umbilical cord is cut then a man cannot be fully born again of the spirit and live by the spiirit without the need for the food of the earth.

God speaks of a resurection of the dead and as he knows the hairs on our head then he knows the place of the dead and He can return life to the dead and revisit their dna and restore the former to flesh, life that holds the memory of the individual, the life held on file.

Worth a mention at this time might be the choice of God to 'forget sin' at some stage, when sin is erased.

Lets take a look at life and it's choice, a right choice and a wrong choice, a right choice being in harmony with God and a wrong choice being unharmonious with God.
On the one hand what God gives favour to and on the other what Gods disowns, one rightious and one sinful.

A Godless person or a person of God, one ruled by sinful flesh and one ruled in harmony with God, one who gives way, one who drives the flesh like a slave.
Oh that we could live on chocolate.

Life and knowledge, created uncreated?, God is life and God is knowledge, gnosis to some word to others who have the word.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Quote:
John 10
18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again.


Good, Then we have to come to some conclusion as to what it was that Yeshuah had authority over.
Flesh he had authority over, and as flesh is perishable he could lay it down.
Life however? God is life, life is uncreated it is and can be what it likes according to what God wants it to be and in Adams creation was imparted to him, breathed into his lifeless form fashioned from the dust.
Therefore, Yeshuah though he could lay down the flesh he could not force God to take back the life from the flesh and as he was not deserving of losing the said life the flesh laid down had no option but to stand again.
bernard (hug)


No Bernie we have not come to a conclusion, far from it.

Did Y'shua lay down his basar or His nephesh ?

LeClerc
bnabernard

LeClerc

He laid down what was his.

bernard (hug)
Honey 56

Hi LeClerc,
Jesus lay down his life/ body, but, He said that He could raise it up again Himself so if he had laid down His spirit also how would he have been able to raise himself up again? something belonging to Jesus obviously did not die!

Honey
Farmer Geddon

LeClerc wrote:
............

Are you saying Enoch and Elijah never died but were taken straight to heaven ? ....


LeClerc


Hi Chirpy...

Lets start with Elijah.

2 Kings Chapter 2:11 "And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, which parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."

Are claiming that he died before turned into Dorothy?

Enoch can be pondered on in Genesis Chapter 5:24 "And Enoch walked with God, and he was not; for God took him"

What was he not, and was he dead when god took him?
Farmer Geddon

LeClerc wrote:
.....

Did Y'shua lay down his basar or His nephesh ?

LeClerc


Let me get this straight:

"Y'shua"?

Do you mean יְשׁוּעָה which is a noun and feminine for "salvation"? http://concordances.org/hebrew/3444.htm  or have you made up a new word?

Are you calling Jesus a girl?




Basar: as in to Preach

Nephesh: as in to Breath.

So whatcha asking; Breathing or Preaching?
bnabernard

Hi Farmer

I'm begining to wonder if ''in the begining was the word'' should read in the begining was the wife (the last word seems to be theirs)

Just been reading about about Shabbat

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/s/shabbat_hamalka.html

bernard (hug)
JamesJah

Hay low Bernie

Is this Jehovah’s opinion on the subject?

Jeremiah 7:16-19
As for you, do not pray in behalf of this people, neither raise in their behalf an entreating cry or a prayer nor beseech me, for I shall not be listening to you. Are you not seeing what they are doing in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The sons are picking up sticks of wood, and the fathers are lighting the fire, and the wives are kneading flour dough in order to make sacrificial cakes to the ‘queen of the heavens’; and there is a pouring out of drink offerings to other gods for the purpose of offending me. Is it I whom they are offending?’ is the utterance of Jehovah. Is it not they themselves, for the purpose of shame to their faces?’

Jeremiah 44:22, 23
Finally Jehovah was no longer able to put up with it because of the badness of your dealings, because of the detestable things that you had done, and so your land came to be a devastated place and an object of astonishment and a malediction, without an inhabitant, as at this day.  Because of the fact that you made sacrificial smoke and that you sinned against Jehovah and did not obey the voice of Jehovah

Do the Catholics still do this?
bnabernard

Thats all mentioned in here http://www.thenazareneway.com/yeshua_jesus_real_name.htm

and 2 kings 18 and 23


bernard (hug)
Farmer Geddon

JJ; you is confusing the issue because it gives Chirpy an excuse to ignore me... Grrr!!

I want to mock her my way,.

You have had the monopoly for way too long - Give someone else the chance chuckle at her ignorant ways !!


Shirley even you most realise that there are legions champing at the bit to prove her wrong?
Farmer Geddon

Bern..

As you well know there is only ONE interpretation of word "Jesus" in the Greek Bible...

Why do certain cults feel it is important to attach their misinterpretation of the "word" to fit what they believe?
JamesJah

Jesus as a name was a common as smith when Jesus was alive why did no one call their child Jesus after he died?
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
Jesus as a name was a common as smith when Jesus was alive why did no one call their child Jesus after he died?


Acts 26 NWT
14And when we had all fallen to the ground I heard a voice say to me in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? To keep kicking against the goads makes it hard for you.’15But I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I am

In the Herbrew language, since that is what Saul heard, what is the next word in the above passage ? You can transliterate.

LeClerc
LeClerc

Hi Honey

Honey 56 wrote:
Hi LeClerc,
Jesus lay down his life/ body, but, He said that He could raise it up again Himself so if he had laid down His spirit also how would he have been able to raise himself up again? something belonging to Jesus obviously did not die!

Honey


Absolutely sis.

Y'shua did not lay down His ruwach, He committed His ruwach into His Fathers hands.

Luke 23
45 the sun did not shine. Also the parokhet in the Temple was split down the middle. 46 Crying out with a loud voice, Yeshua said, “Father! Into your hands I commit my spirit.” (ruwach) With these words he gave up his spirit (ruwach).

LeClerc
LeClerc

Hi Farmer

Farmer Geddon wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
.....

Did Y'shua lay down his basar or His nephesh ?

LeClerc


Let me get this straight:

"Y'shua"?

Do you mean יְשׁוּעָה which is a noun and feminine for "salvation"? http://concordances.org/hebrew/3444.htm  or have you made up a new word?

Are you calling Jesus a girl?




Please provide evidence where I put an h at the end ?


Farmer Geddon wrote:

Basar: as in to Preach

Nephesh: as in to Breath.

So whatcha asking; Breathing or Preaching?


Nephesh Strongs H5315

Basar Strongs H1320

LeClerc
Honey 56

LeClerc wrote:
Hi Honey

Honey 56 wrote:
Hi LeClerc,
Jesus lay down his life/ body, but, He said that He could raise it up again Himself so if he had laid down His spirit also how would he have been able to raise himself up again? something belonging to Jesus obviously did not die!

Honey


Absolutely sis.

Y'shua did not lay down His ruwach, He committed His ruwach into His Fathers hands.

Luke 23
45 the sun did not shine. Also the parokhet in the Temple was split down the middle. 46 Crying out with a loud voice, Yeshua said, “Father! Into your hands I commit my spirit.” (ruwach) With these words he gave up his spirit (ruwach).

LeClerc


And yet according to the WTBTS teaching. Jesus didn't have a spirit to commend into His Fathers hands, and neither do any other human beings? this, dspite what the scriptures plainly teach!

I have to ask myself, what power do they possess to mislead these people to such a degree?

According to God's word satan is the father of lies, the deciever and accuser.

Blessings.  

Honey
bnabernard

The question I ask myself is, who or what created spirit?

My own answer is that spirit is uncreated as God is spirit, and working on that basis it seems fair to me that  this statement of into your hands I commend my spirit is in reality a way of saying, I leave my life in your hands.
Then one loses ones own senses as the brain shuts down and the body ceases to be alive.

Life as in spirit leaves the body, and returns to it's source, the uncreated being that is life in spirit form the one uncreated spirit that is almighty God.

Dead flesh returns to it's source dust.

Now as I said before, If the spirit being in harmony is not required back to it's former source then it is not asked back and remains to sustain the habitat and even greater than the flesh in that it has become closer raised up in form.

Now as God is light and flesh is a solid (I realy should give up now) I'll have to mention the holographic nature of creation, no I won't they will come and want to lock me up especialy if I start to ramble on about the dark side and how the dark does not comprehand the light, and spirit that can have no form lest it can take shape in the stuff that I cant remember the name of,

bernard (hug)

bernard (hug)
Honey 56

Hi Bernard

The bible makes a distinction between these three….

23May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it
1 Thessalonians 5


and may your spirit   πνεῦμα pneuma wind, spirit
and soul                       ψυχὴ psuchē breath, the soul
and body                   σῶμα sōma body

The bible teaches that the spirit goes back to God who gave it and the body returns to dust and the dust to the ground.

Ecclesiastes 12
7and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.


Honey
bnabernard

Yup thats what bernie iterated, your comming along honey, well done.

Could you go on to explain God for me, did He create life or is He life, is He spirit or did He create spirit, did He create light or is He light.

Of substance, where did he get it from to form the dust to create man from.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
The question I ask myself is, who or what created spirit?
bernard (hug)


When you use the word ''spirit'' are you referring to

Nĕshamah Strongs H5397

or

Ruwach Strongs H7307

A good interlinear is essential here for the correct understanding.

Now turning to Nephesh Strongs H5315

Zechariah 11 NWT

6“‘For I shall show compassion no more upon the inhabitants of the land,’ is the utterance of Jehovah. ‘So here I am causing mankind to find themselves, each one in the hand of his companion and in the hand of his king; and they will certainly crush to pieces the land, and I shall do no delivering out of their hand.’”
7And I proceeded to shepherd the flock [meant] for the killing, in YOUR behalf, O afflicted ones of the flock. So I took for myself two staffs. The one I called Pleasantness, and the other I called Union, and I went shepherding the flock.8And I finally effaced three shepherds in one lunar month, as my soul (nephesh) gradually became impatient with them, and also their own soul (nephesh) felt a loathing toward me.


Yes YHWH refers to my Nephesh.

LeClerc
bnabernard

LeClerc

Question: are you pointing to another uncreated, iterating something uncreated, or pointing out a creation?

bernard (hug)

       nglreturns.myfreeforum.org Forum Index -> Christian chat Page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3
Create your own free forum | Buy a domain to use with your forum