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Leonard James

Re: You will burn in hell!

Floo wrote:
Just warming things up for our newest member.

What makes the hell-fire merchants tick? Some Christians  get a kick out of threatening others with hell-fire and other tortures of hell, even though there is NO evidence an afterlife even exists. I have met in reality and on-line a good number, usually men, who seem to get off on the topic. It would appear they take great delight in all those, including Christians who don't see it their way, being tortured forever! That is pretty sick in my opinion. :o

Surely a deity who would condemn the 'unsaved' to burn for all eternity for nothing more than unbelief would be all that is evil, especially as it is reputed to have created humans and their nature in the first place! I find it strange that some could find anything good in such a nasty deity.


Roses ... trying to get the brainwashed to respond to reason is a lost cause. They have submerged that ability in a mirky mix of superstitions.
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Re: You will burn in hell!

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Shaker

Re: You will burn in hell!

Floo wrote:
What makes the hell-fire merchants tick? Some Christians  get a kick out of threatening others with hell-fire and other tortures of hell, even though there is NO evidence an afterlife even exists. I have met in reality and on-line a good number, usually men, who seem to get off on the topic. It would appear they take great delight in all those, including Christians who don't see it their way, being tortured forever! That is pretty sick in my opinion. :o

Surely a deity who would condemn the 'unsaved' to burn for all eternity for nothing more than unbelief would be all that is evil, especially as it is reputed to have created humans and their nature in the first place! I find it strange that some could find anything good in such a nasty deity.


I don't think you really need to look any further than Bertrand Russell's famous observation that cruel, vengeful and punitive people create a cruel, vengeful and punitive God. That's the top and bottom of it, as far as I can see.
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Re: You will burn in hell!

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IvyOwl

Quote:
I don't think you really need to look any further than Bertrand Russell's famous observation that cruel, vengeful and punitive people create a cruel, vengeful and punitive God. That's the top and bottom of it, as far as I can see.


I'm not convinced that it's quite that simple. I'm recalling the 'hell and brimstone' sermons that I heard in my youth. Mr, Warnock (a big hairy scary Scot) used to bring his tent round to the villages and preach those sermons and wow was he terrifying! But as a person he was genuinely concerned that we should be 'saved'. He totally believed in the doctrine and the burning in hell consequences of not being 'saved'. He was basically kind and well meaning ..... he'd just been taught it himself and truly believed it.

Mind you I don't know why he needed to believe it. Many of the adults who were already 'saved' thrilled to his sermons 'such a good preacher the holy spirit is truly upon him' they throughly loved the frisson of excitement his 'ravings' (that's what they were) engendered. Again these were by and large decent kindly people. Maybe they needed a bit of excitement in their lives?

Perhaps being working class  they rather enjoyed believing that they'd got it right and the CofE 'Tory party at prayer'  lot up the the road had got it all wrong? That those smug snobs would burn in hell?

I'm sure there must be some studies on this somewhere.
The Boyg

Re: You will burn in hell!

Floo wrote:
What makes the hell-fire merchants tick? Some Christians  get a kick out of threatening others with hell-fire and other tortures of hell


Some Christians. None that I've ever met in the real world though.
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Re: You will burn in hell!

The Boyg wrote:
Floo wrote:
What makes the hell-fire merchants tick? Some Christians  get a kick out of threatening others with hell-fire and other tortures of hell


Some Christians. None that I've ever met in the real world though.


You obviously don't get out enough then!
The Boyg

Re: You will burn in hell!

Floo wrote:
The Boyg wrote:
Floo wrote:
What makes the hell-fire merchants tick? Some Christians  get a kick out of threatening others with hell-fire and other tortures of hell


Some Christians. None that I've ever met in the real world though.


You obviously don't get out enough then!


No, I get out plenty and meet many Christians regularly.

I was making an observation about my experience.
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The Boyg

Re: You will burn in hell!

Floo wrote:
Well I make mine observations from my experience.

That's all any of us can do anecdotally.

Quote:
Have you ever attended a Pentecostal church?


No.

Why? Do you think that they are typical of the majority of Christians?
Shaker

IvyOwl wrote:
I'm not convinced that it's quite that simple. I'm recalling the 'hell and brimstone' sermons that I heard in my youth. Mr, Warnock (a big hairy scary Scot) used to bring his tent round to the villages and preach those sermons and wow was he terrifying! But as a person he was genuinely concerned that we should be 'saved'. He totally believed in the doctrine and the burning in hell consequences of not being 'saved'. He was basically kind and well meaning ..... he'd just been taught it himself and truly believed it.

I don't think it's just that simple either: but from my point of view, which sees all gods as creations of the human mind and nothing but (i.e. with no corresponding external reality), people seem to glom onto a concept of God which mirrors their character. The God in which Desmond Tutu (Christian) believes isn't the God in which members of the Westboro Baptist Church (also Christian, so they say) purport to believe, and I can't see any other really thorough and consistent way of explaining this curious fact other than that they're very different kinds of people and forge their conception of God accordingly.

As a slight aside, it used to be fairly commonly heard to hear people speak of 'my/your/his/her God', a phrase which seems to have built into it a great element of subjectivity and non-exclusivity: it seems to recognise that people have various different ideas of God which are personal and specific to that individual. You don't hear it so much nowadays.
cyberman

May I interject with a pedantic language point here?

*he ploughs on without awaiting an answer...*

By definition, in this context, 'saved' means 'not going to hell'.

Therefore it is meaningless to say you object to those who say that unless you are saved you are going to hell, because it is tautologous.

Of course, you may disagree with what some of them think you have to do to be saved, but that's a different thing.

Many Catholics, for example, believe that by the saving acts of Jesus, everyone is saved.
Lexilogio

I do agree that it can be psychologically damaging to have people live in constant fear of going to hell. Constant fear is not good.

I would not want someone to turn to Christ out of fear. It is far better that they turn to Christ out of love.
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Re: You will burn in hell!

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The Boyg

Re: You will burn in hell!

Floo wrote:
The Boyg wrote:
Why? Do you think that they are typical of the majority of Christians?


And where did I say pentecostalists were typical of the majority of Christians?


I never said that you have.

I asked you two questions.

Do you not understand how questions work Floo?  
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The Boyg

Floo wrote:
Not yours, obviously!

What is that you're struggling with? How can I assist your comprehension?

I would have thought that:
The Boyg wrote:
Why? Do you think that they are typical of the majority of Christians?

were pretty straightforward, as questions go.

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The Boyg

Floo wrote:
Half the time I have no idea what you are on about, I suspect other struggle with your posts too.


Really Floo?

What is it that you find so incomprehensible about the questions:
Quote:
Why? Do you think that they are typical of the majority of Christians?


If you explain then perhaps I (or someone else) can help you with your difficulties.  
IvyOwl

Floo wrote:
Half the time I have no idea what you are on about, I suspect other struggle with your posts too.


I don't  
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Derek

Floo wrote:
Half the time I have no idea what you are on about, I suspect other struggle with your posts too.


I don't either. Seems like a straight forward question to me.
The Boyg

Floo wrote:
Bully for you!


cyberman

Re: You will burn in hell!

Floo wrote:
The Boyg wrote:
Do you think that [pentecostalists] are typical of the majority of Christians?


And where did I say pentecostalists were typical of the majority of Christians?


Floo, your reply doesn't make sense.

If you had said that, then he wouldn't need to ask.

He is asking whether you think they are typical, he is not accusing you of saying that they are.

If I asked you "Do you have a bird table in your garden?",  it would not make sense to respond with "And where did I say I had a bird table in my garden?", would it?

If you had said you had a bird table, I wouldn't ask you whether you had one.

If you had said you thought pentecostalists were typical, he wouldn't ask you whether you thought it.
Leonard James

The Boyg wrote:
Floo wrote:
Bully for you!




It's a curious thing, but Victor Mature never did anything for me. He was a sort of asexual male.
The Boyg

You've spoiled the joke now Lenny.  
Ketty

Shaker wrote:

As a slight aside, it used to be fairly commonly heard to hear people speak of 'my/your/his/her God', a phrase which seems to have built into it a great element of subjectivity and non-exclusivity: it seems to recognise that people have various different ideas of God which are personal and specific to that individual. You don't hear it so much nowadays.


That's an interesting point.  Our relationship with our Saviour is unique and personal - just as in life: my relationship with my parents is unique to us (my parents and I), as is their relationship with my siblings.  So what the Lord teaches and says to me through prayer and Bible study and my brothers and sisters in Christ, is what is pertinent for me, my life, and His purpose(s) for it.  It could be, therefore, that the Wesboro' folks are actually being convicted of something in their own life, and they are reflecting that onto others?
Derek

Ketty wrote:
Shaker wrote:

As a slight aside, it used to be fairly commonly heard to hear people speak of 'my/your/his/her God', a phrase which seems to have built into it a great element of subjectivity and non-exclusivity: it seems to recognise that people have various different ideas of God which are personal and specific to that individual. You don't hear it so much nowadays.


That's an interesting point.  Our relationship with our Saviour is unique and personal - just as in life: my relationship with my parents is unique to us (my parents and I), as is their relationship with my siblings.  So what the Lord teaches and says to me through prayer and Bible study and my brothers and sisters in Christ, is what is pertinent for me, my life, and His purpose(s) for it.  It could be, therefore, that the Wesboro' folks are actually being convicted of something in their own life, and they are reflecting that onto others?


When we pray, we speak to God. When we read the scripture, He answers us. His answers are unique to every individual that prays, however, His  commandments, precepts and principles apply to all of us equally, with no discrimination. A congregation, because of its needs to gather together, most conform to the teachings of men, who interprets scripture for them, and instruct them on what to conform to.

The Wesboro Baptist Church congregation adhere to the teachings of their clerical hierarchy, who have obviously misinterpreted the scriptures. There clergy will be held accountable for that, as will the congregation for allowing themselves to be brainwashed. Free Agency. But they think that they are as right about their religion as you do, or as I do. They think that you have it all wrong and they cannot possibly be wrong. So which one of your clergy is wrong? Mine is not wrong as I do not have one. You cannot both be right so how do you determine which one is wrong.

Both are wrong as both draw near to him with their mouths yet in their hearts they are far from Him. How do you worship in an elitist church who believe they are the only way by which salvation can be obtained. A church who readily condemns other religions for their beliefs and exhaults themself above others. Likewise with the Wesboros, how do you worship in a church with such extroverted views on Gays. So, both of them are wrong and although it is nice to meet with other like minded people, the real meaning of religion is in our personal relationship with God and Jesus Christ.

The commandments of God are written on our hearts. When we read scriptures our hearts will recognise those commandments contained in their pages. Nobody needs to use the hearts of clergy to read the scriptures for them and interpret them. We can all, as individuals, do that ourself. Confirm them, by all means, with your clergy and fellow Christians but don't expect your clergy to know anymore then you. He is human to.
Leonard James

The Boyg wrote:
You've spoiled the joke now Lenny.  


Oh gawd! Sorry mate. That was not my intention.
Ketty

Ralph2 wrote:
 [LDS preachy stuff]


"Ralph" please don't waste your LDS preachy stuff in reply to me, especially when it has nothing at all to do with what I said.   Thank you kindly.  
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The Boyg

Floo wrote:
I wondered who that bloke was. Who is Victor Mature, never heard of him?


The photo was intended to be a juxtaposition to your statement.  
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Leonard James

Floo wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
The Boyg wrote:
Floo wrote:
Bully for you!




It's a curious thing, but Victor Mature never did anything for me. He was a sort of asexual male.


I wondered who that bloke was. Who is Victor Mature, never heard of him?


http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001514/
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Derek

Ketty wrote:
Ralph2 wrote:
 [LDS preachy stuff]


"Ralph" please don't waste your LDS preachy stuff in reply to me, especially when it has nothing at all to do with what I said.   Thank you kindly.  


It is not preachy stuff it was a genuine response to a debatable subject. You probably didn't recognise it as you rarely debate. It was to do with your statement. It was just putting you straight on your erroneous idea. Besides, no one else was answering it so I was just trying to save you embarrassment.
Shaker

Floo wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
The Boyg wrote:
Floo wrote:
Bully for you!




It's a curious thing, but Victor Mature never did anything for me. He was a sort of asexual male.


I wondered who that bloke was. Who is Victor Mature, never heard of him?

Biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig bigbigbigbigbig Hollywood star back in the day, 1940s and 50s especially. Same stable as poor old Tyrone Power et. al. I just looked him up and was shocked to see that he died as recently as 1999 - I thought he'd passed away long before that.

I was going to say "What's Humphrey Bogart got to do with anything?" but I thought somebody might take it seriously  
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The Boyg

Floo wrote:
Not with you?


No, since you don't appear to understand a simple question / answer relationship then I didn't think that you would get it.  
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The Boyg

Floo wrote:
The Boyg wrote:
Floo wrote:
Not with you?


No, since you don't appear to understand a simple question / answer relationship then I didn't think that you would get it.  


I have no idea in this world what you are talking about


That's what gives other people a larf!  
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Truster

Re: You will burn in hell!

Floo wrote:
Just warming things up for our newest member.

What makes the hell-fire merchants tick? Some Christians  get a kick out of threatening others with hell-fire and other tortures of hell, even though there is NO evidence an afterlife even exists. I have met in reality and on-line a good number, usually men, who seem to get off on the topic. It would appear they take great delight in all those, including Christians who don't see it their way, being tortured forever! That is pretty sick in my opinion. :o

Surely a deity who would condemn the 'unsaved' to burn for all eternity for nothing more than unbelief would be all that is evil, especially as it is reputed to have created humans and their nature in the first place! I find it strange that some could find anything good in such a nasty deity.


The scriptures include both blessed promises and warnings of destruction through judgements. If anyone enters the presence of those that have an entitlement to the promises by grace, through trust. We* who are heirs of grace will always warn them of the destruction they face.
If I met you out on the Elenydd mountains and you were wandering into one of the many peat bogs would you prefer if I let you go? There is a certainty you wouldn't get out again. Hades has a sign outside, ONE WAY.
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Truster

Floo wrote:
The mountains and peat bogs are reality. There is no evidence  a deity, heaven or hell exist.


Peat bogs are only a reality when your in one floo. They are seldom seen from a distance and until you start sinking you have no idea of the danger. Nearly came to an end myself earlier this year when exploring a part of the Black Mountain off track.
The reality of Hades is kept from the masses by Satan himself. He doesn't want you to believe there is a hades. Seems to be working floo……
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Derek

Truster wrote:
Floo wrote:
The mountains and peat bogs are reality. There is no evidence  a deity, heaven or hell exist.


Peat bogs are only a reality when your in one floo. They are seldom seen from a distance and until you start sinking you have no idea of the danger. Nearly came to an end myself earlier this year when exploring a part of the Black Mountain off track.
The reality of Hades is kept from the masses by Satan himself. He doesn't want you to believe there is a hades. Seems to be working floo……


She means it Truster. She calls herself an agnostic but would an agnostic say this.

Quote:
The Father Christmas tale is no less credible than the stories surrounding the Biblical deity


We are in a dispensation where there will be many who are beyond reasoning with. They come here as a last ditch attempt to be convinced or just to contend on behalf of Satan. By their fruits you will recognise them.
Shaker

Truster wrote:
Floo wrote:
The mountains and peat bogs are reality. There is no evidence  a deity, heaven or hell exist.


Peat bogs are only a reality when your in one floo.

Erm ... no, actually. I'm not currently in a peat bog but I know they exist, for the same reason that I know that Tunisia exists although I'm not currently there.
Shaker

Ralph2 wrote:
She means it Truster. She calls herself an agnostic but would an agnostic say this.

Quote:
The Father Christmas tale is no less credible than the stories surrounding the Biblical deity


Well, yes.
Truster

Ralph2 wrote:
Truster wrote:
Floo wrote:
The mountains and peat bogs are reality. There is no evidence  a deity, heaven or hell exist.


Peat bogs are only a reality when your in one floo. They are seldom seen from a distance and until you start sinking you have no idea of the danger. Nearly came to an end myself earlier this year when exploring a part of the Black Mountain off track.
The reality of Hades is kept from the masses by Satan himself. He doesn't want you to believe there is a hades. Seems to be working floo……


She means it Truster. She calls herself an agnostic but would an agnostic say this.

Quote:
The Father Christmas tale is no less credible than the stories surrounding the Biblical deity


We are in a dispensation where there will be many who are beyond reasoning with. They come here as a last ditch attempt to be convinced or just to contend on behalf of Satan. By their fruits you will recognise them.


They don't engage they just enrage. They expect us to jump through a hoop and obey rules and yet they break the rules of engagement by derailing or at least trying to derail threads.
I was sat at church one day when I heard a noise at the back. I marked the guy and when the service was over sat next to him. He grabbed my hair and pulled me towards him. I looked him in the eye and told him. ''If you ever do that again I'll shall punch your lights out''. He thanked me in the most sincere way and commented that he had no respect for the people in the church, because they allowed him to do whatever he wanted with no reproach. My assurance of a punch shut him up from then on. He's dead now, but whenever I saw him he would always stop for a chat.
Derek

Shaker wrote:
Ralph2 wrote:
She means it Truster. She calls herself an agnostic but would an agnostic say this.

Quote:
The Father Christmas tale is no less credible than the stories surrounding the Biblical deity


Well, yes.


If that is your philosophy then why are you hanging around us fairy tale believers. It must be so difficult for you to read the post of those who believe in a entity that nobody can see. Why not find a forum where like minded people frequent and have a good old debate. Stop torturing yourself and immerse yourself in a science forum

I knew a guy, some 35 years ago, who lived on a rough council estate. He was the estates fence, drug dealer, hired thug, councillor, confidant and bank. He was the king of the castle and everyone respected and revered him. He had some police on his payroll to make life easier for him. He was just a normal man with basic education. So how was he so revered. He loved being the king of his castle and loved all the attention he got from them. He was the estate Don because those who revered him were uneducated criminals with no prospects, who thought that he was better then them, so they looked up to him and defended him. What would he do if someone came along who threatened his position?

He could so very easily have been the man who downloaded software and installed it on his PC, who then convinced those, with no knowledge of computers, how wonderful he is for creating a forum. He could have painstakingly used a thesaurus to give the impression of intellectual superiority to attract people that thought they were less educated then him and whose lives were not as full as they could be. He, effectively, would be the king of the forum castle. Maybe that is why he might hang around a forum that he has nothing in common with. Maybe. What would he do if someone with higher intelligence came along and began to expose him?
Shaker

Ralph2 wrote:
If that is your philosophy then why are you hanging around us fairy tale believers.

Why do people go to the zoo?

Quote:
It must be so difficult for you to read the post of those who believe in a entity that nobody can see.

Not so much difficult as ... peculiar.

Quote:
Why not find a forum where like minded people frequent and have a good old debate.

Why do you assume that I have not done and do not already do this?

Quote:
Stop torturing yourself and immerse yourself in a science forum

See previous answer. And who's tortured?

Quote:
What would he do if someone with higher intelligence came along and began to expose him?

Probably laugh his socks off at someone claiming to be of higher intelligence who can't spell. In English or even Del Boy-level French.
Derek

[quote="Shaker:98129"]

Quote:
Ralph2 wrote:
If that is your philosophy then why are you hanging around us fairy tale believers.

Why do people go to the zoo?


What a execrable and reproachable aspersion to make against your fellow posters, Shameful. To liken Christians on a forum, that you created, as you are always eager to remind us, of being zoo animals. Despicable.

Quote:
Quote:
It must be so difficult for you to read the post of those who believe in a entity that nobody can see.

Not so much difficult as ... peculiar.


Thank You

1 Peter 2

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Quote:
Quote:
Why not find a forum where like minded people frequent and have a good old debate.

Why do you assume that I have not done and do not already do this?


I have made no such assumption. I have given you some good advice. Stop bullying the Christians and spend more time on a forum of like minded jerks.

Quote:
Quote:
Stop torturing yourself and immerse yourself in a science forum

See previous answer. And who's tortured?


Here am I concerned that you are torturing yourself and there are you ridiculing me for hitting the e and d at the same time causing a typo. There is gratitude for you.

Quote:
Quote:
What would he do if someone with higher intelligence came along and began to expose him?

Probably laugh his socks off at someone claiming to be of higher intelligence who can't spell. In English or even Del Boy-level French.


I am a Christian, which is why I am here. Why are you here?  Other then to look at the zoo animals.
Shaker

Ralph2 wrote:
What a execrable and reproachable aspersion to make against your fellow posters, Shameful. To liken Christians on a forum, that you created, as you are always eager to remind us, of being zoo animals. Despicable.

Not all of them. Only some of them.

I'm delighted, however, that my remark seems to have induced in you a froth of which the makers of Imperial Leather would be proud.

Quote:
Here am I concerned that you are torturing yourself

Your concern is utterly and entirely misplaced.

Quote:
I am a Christian, which is why I am here.

This makes no sense whatever, since isn't a Christian forum, in the sense of "by Christians, for Christians, to talk about Christianity and nothing but." There are lots of those out there if they roast your spuds. I never wanted it to be. I've never had much regard for monocultural forums: they quickly tend to be insular if not downright incestuous talking shops amongst people of a like mind. Very boring very quickly, as far as I'm concerned. It's the dialectic, the debate, the spread of opinions, the opinion tennis, the back and forth, which gives any forum its energy.

Quote:
Why are you here? Other then to look at the zoo animals.

That's a good enough reason, though there are others. The primary one is that this forum was created, by me and very much on the fly, to keep together a small band of online friends who would otherwise have been stranded when No Greater Love was precipitately closed down. That was in August 2008: not all of those friends persist to this day, but some do - Lexi and Leonard spring to mind.

The same hard core of regulars keep on coming back day in and day out (when they're not taking a break from online forums or swanning off to Denmark or whatever), and for these, the occasional opportunity to watch the wildlife must be an attraction, if I'm anything to go by.
Lexilogio

Truster wrote:


He grabbed my hair and pulled me towards him. I looked him in the eye and told him. ''If you ever do that again I'll shall punch your lights out''.


ἐγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν μὴ ἀντιστῆναι τῷ πονηρῷ· ἀλλ’ ὅστις σε ῥαπίζει εἰς τὴν δεξιὰν σιαγόνα σου, στρέψον αὐτῷ καὶ τὴν ἄλλην·

And in case you are unable to read the original greek....

But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also

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