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Farmer Geddon

Did Jesus Die on the cross?

From the BBC:


Link
Leonard James

Very interesting, Luci.

Whatever the true explanation is, I'm sure it wasn't a resurrection. If Jesus ever lived, I'm sure he is as dead as a doornail now, and has been for nearly 2000 years.
bigfrankus

hi

yes He did

and in doing so He obtained salvation for u as well as all the rest
chadivarus

If he wasn't raised why did those who claimed to have met with Him, seen Him eaten with Him etc. Claim that He did.

And be martyred for claiming it?

Do give me a sensible answer.
Leonard James

chadivarus wrote:
If he wasn't raised why did those who claimed to have met with Him, seen Him eaten with Him etc. Claim that He did.

And we martyred for claiming it?

Do give me a sensible answer.

The video gives sensible answers. That you ignore them doesn't detract from their validity.
Silver

More important is: Did Jesus exist and there is no evidence outside of the bible that he did. All the wonderful things he was supposed to have done and no one wrote about it. Even the bible accounts are not first person or by anyone who knew Jesus.
chadivarus

Quote:
The video gives sensible answers. That you ignore them doesn't detract from their validity.

Thanks for the help.  The video does not play for me.
Farmer Geddon

Oh dear - living in the dark ages Chav?

Here's the Link - although I doubt you'll watch it:  http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-8617432570680905331
Farmer Geddon

Re: hi

bigfrankus wrote:
yes He did

and in doing so He obtained salvation for u as well as all the rest


No, all he did was die on the cross - the rest is just mythology...
Farmer Geddon

chadivarus wrote:
If he wasn't raised why did those who claimed to have met with Him, seen Him eaten with Him etc. Claim that He did.

And we martyred for claiming it?

Do give me a sensible answer.


Ahhh but did they? - It seems to me that Jesus was executed for being a disciple of JtheB and treated with the same Iron fist.

As for the stories about the run up and consequences of this event - well they were written at least 30 decades after his ignominious death.

Plenty of time to fabricate the resurrection story.

After all "Paul" spent decades propagating his notion of a Hellenised "Christ" until the Romans got bored of this as well and terminated his life too.

It was only after this that they began to equate this "Christ" figure to a local story about JtheB and his follower..... and expand on it to create a saviour, who was going to come back and kick the Roman oppressors arse and bring back the one 'God' instead of the pantheon of gods they brought with them.

Didn't work out they way they thought it would - the bastard Romans sacked/destroyed their temple and kinda fucked up the ideal of a Jewish 'redemption'.

The Jewish "Jesus Movement" kinda collapsed after this event and Jesus' original followers just fade into the background....

But the Hellenised Christ motif of Shu'al takes hold and the rest, as the theologians claim, is 'History'.....

As for the 'martyrdom' you mention - that is a Roman Catholic  notion to give credence to their saints....

Most of these so-called 'murder' of the "Saints" are unsubstantiated...

How believers cannot see these stories as mythical is beyond me...

It's all faerie tales and puppy-dog tails to me.........
chadivarus

I am NOT RC.

Are you saying that many of the early disciples were not killed proclaiming that Jesus had risen. and therefore absolute fools if they knew it was untrue.

The explanation the video gives that they kidded themselves stretches my imagination a bit.
Pukon_the_Treen

chadivarus,

Quote:
Are you saying that many of the early disciples were not killed proclaiming that Jesus had risen. and therefore absolute fools if they knew it was untrue.


As far as I'm aware the lives (and deaths) of the early disciples are more a matter of tradition and legend rather than historical fact.

There is no doubt that the early Christians were persecuted and killed, but no reason to imagine that these were actually people who had met and knew Jesus personally, so knew categorically whether the roots of the faith were factual or not.  This being the case, there is no reason to place any special importance on the fact that they were martyred and no reason to treat the act of martyrdom as indicating historical fact, any more than any other cult member who dies for his convictions.
Farmer Geddon

chadivarus wrote:
I am NOT RC.

Are you saying that many of the early disciples were not killed proclaiming that Jesus had risen. and therefore absolute fools if they knew it was untrue.

The explanation the video gives that they kidded themselves stretches my imagination a bit.

So what - you obviously  follow RC doctrine... even though you don't realise it....

What I'm saying is the reason we have these 'saints' is because of "theology' - you do know what theology is?

A sea of Fools: that is a theological inference to non-believers who are not susceptible to the story of the resurrection of the"Christ" - which covers a pantheon of heretics....  Jews, Muslims, Greek and Roman Gods... and those other Christians who are not "Roman"..

All the other Pagan Gods/God men who were about 2000 years ago, the Hellenised Gods/GodMen that Shu'al followed before his....  errrr ..  conversion, who were amalgamated to create the "Christ"; a Gentile God, not the Jewish God that Jesus believed in..  You do know that Jesus was a Jew???



Anyway Events in Palestine proved that Jesus wasn't the Jewish Messiah, but over the centuries the motif of the Christ prevailed....  

Shall we discuss the reasons behind the Nicene Creed now, or wait for your flawed defence of the resurrection?
chadivarus

Why the Nicene creed?  Have I even said I follow it?

We "know " that James was executed, Paul was beheaded, Peter crucified and so on.

Why are you burbling about saints and the RCs?
Silver

chadivarus wrote:
We "know " that James was executed, Paul was beheaded, Peter crucified and so on.



We "know" this because the bible tells us but the bible is notoriously untrustworthy and is generally not backed up by any other historical sources when it counts.

Many doubt Jesus lived. Maybe his disciples didn't live either. Like islam, maybe one man put the lot together.
chadivarus

First of all an apology.  I posted some days ago that I did not think it right for christians to post on the Atheist section. I will therefore apolgise and withdraw.

I think history says that Nero burn many christians. But you may be right that this is just made up story.

Last posting on this section. Sorry!
Pukon_the_Treen

chadivarus,

Quote:
I think history says that Nero burn many christians. But you may be right that this is just made up story.


Swing and a miss! There is a lot of relatively impartial contemporary evidence indicating that Nero persecuted Christians.  What relatively impartial contemporary sources have you got which confirms that the apostles who knew Jesus first-hand were martyred?  Like I said, as far as I know it's just tradition and legend.  Didn't you get taught all that stuff in history about evaluating different types of evidence?

Quote:
Last posting on this section.


Probably for the best.
Leonard James

chadivarus wrote:
First of all an apology.  I posted some days ago that I did not think it right for christins to post on the Atheist section. I will therefore apolgise and withdraw.

There is nothing wrong with Christians and atheists posting in the opposite camp forums providing they abide by the rules; in fact hearing both sides of an argument is the only sensible way to develop our own views.
Farmer Geddon

chadivarus wrote:
First of all an apology.  I posted some days ago that I did not think it right for christians to post on the Atheist section. I will therefore apolgise and withdraw.

Last posting on this section. Sorry!


It doesn't bother me if you, or any other believer post here Chav - in fact you are welcome to post on any subject you see fit to respond to.

It's only those christians of a more 'sensative nature' who get all "boo hoo" about subject and location...
bigfrankus

hi

Silver wrote:
chadivarus wrote:
We "know " that James was executed, Paul was beheaded, Peter crucified and so on.



We "know" this because the bible tells us but the bible is notoriously untrustworthy and is generally not backed up by any other historical sources when it counts.

Many doubt Jesus lived. Maybe his disciples didn't live either. Like islam, maybe one man put the lot together.


this from a guy who quotes the bible here :

http://nglreturns.myfreeforum.org/about1015.html
Silver

BF. If you are pretending to be a christian, you might at least take note of what the bible says. Or has wordsfromsatan told you to ignore it?
Silver

chadivarus wrote:
I think history says that Nero burn many christians. But you may be right that this is just made up story.



At the same time as the story in Tacitus (which most believe is a forgery), Paul is in Rome too:

Quote:
Acts 28:30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,

28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.



Not a lot of persecuting going on there.
bigfrankus

HI

ok Silver for the record

do you believe that God and Jesus exist ?

if yes - then good - that confirms all i have told u

if no - then why r u quoting Jesus and the bible ?
Farmer Geddon

Yes, there may have been an insurgent called Jesus who was executed by the Romans as what we would now call a terrorist, but he was a son of God - as in a Jew.

But not the "Sun of god" as claimed.....

As for "God" - you should now praise it as "ALLAH": The one True God.......
Silver

Re: HI

bigfrankus wrote:
ok Silver for the record

do you believe that God and Jesus exist ?

if yes - then good - that confirms all i have told u

if no - then why r u quoting Jesus and the bible ?



There is no evidence that any god exists. As our knowledge increases, god is relegated to ever smaller places.

There is no evidence for the biblical Jesus. It is possible that a fully human Jesus existed.

Because if atheists don't keep pointing out what is wrong, christians will claim they must be right.
Leonard James

Re: HI

Silver wrote:
bigfrankus wrote:
ok Silver for the record

do you believe that God and Jesus exist ?

if yes - then good - that confirms all i have told u

if no - then why r u quoting Jesus and the bible ?



There is no evidence that any god exists. As our knowledge increases, god is relegated to ever smaller places.

There is no evidence for the biblical Jesus. It is possible that a fully human Jesus existed.

Because if atheists don't keep pointing out what is wrong, christians will claim they must be right.

Quite!  :lol:

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