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Farmer Geddon

Does Christianity promote life..

... or does it glorify death?

It seems to me that the only thing Christians look forward to is death!
Jim

Eh?
John 10:10.
Nope!
Shaker

Re: Does Christianity promote life..

Farmer Geddon wrote:
... or does it glorify death?

It seems to me that the only thing Christians look forward to is death!

I agree. Remember that for mediaeval Christians the three greatest enemies were the world, the flesh and the devil. Christianity has always had a world-hating, pleasure-hating, life-denying stance: life in this world has to be denigrated as a sentence served in a vale of tears so that the much-vaunted post-mortem future life with a Middle Eastern woodwork enthusiast can be talked up. Whatever is taken away from one place is given to another: you can't inculcate the masses with a vision of a glorious pie in the sky for ever after by and by without running down this life in this world and making its pleasures (food and drink and especially sex) into something inherently bad and suitable for existing only within very tightly circumscribed limits. Marriage, for instance, is seen by Paul not as an inherently good thing in and of itself but a reluctant solution to a perceived problem, i.e. it's better to marry than to burn.

Mediaeval Christians, or rather, religious authorities had half of their work done for them because the vast majority of people in those days lived lives which were nasty, poor, brutish and short. In some parts of the world - principally areas of Africa - this is still the case. When people's lives are brief, ugly, miserable, deprived and pain-filled how much easier it becomes to flog them the miracle cure for their woes. It's a marketing man's wet dream.
northernstar

Spot on, Shaker.
Ketty

Shaker, you're mixing (have mixed?) with the wrong sort.   What a miserable lot of folks you've described there.  But then again, some are never happier than when they're being miserable and you don't even need a religion to be like that.

Ducky, if you know only folks who are looking forward to death, then you need to get out more.

Shaker

It's not so much about looking forward to death: in fact there's a body of (so far as I know, entirely anecdotal but still significant for all that) evidence from medical people and hospice carers to suggest that people with a religious belief have a greater fear of death, less acceptance and die harder than those without. I'm sure I've got some links to this effect somewhere, which I'll post if I can find them.
Ketty

Shaker wrote:
It's not so much about looking forward to death: in fact there's a body of (so far as I know, entirely anecdotal but still significant for all that) evidence from medical people and hospice carers to suggest that people with a religious belief have a greater fear of death, less acceptance and die harder than those without. I'm sure I've got some links to this effect somewhere, which I'll post if I can find them.


I've heard the exact opposite!  
Shaker

Ketty wrote:
I've heard the exact opposite!  

But in your circles that's exactly what you'd expect, is it not?
Farmer Geddon

I guess the original premise of this thread comes from doing some research on what sort of Jew Jesus would have been.


It made me realise that Christianity is more based on what happens when you die, instead of what you do when you are alive.....
Jim

As an old Christian Aid poster has it;
    "We believe in life BEFORE death."

If you think all a relationship with Christ has to offer is a lifetime waiting in the departure lounge for heaven, forget it!

That abundant life He spoke about in John 10:10 is for now...ot just when we turn up our toes.
For those of us who accept His Lordship in us, ouy citizenship of the Kingdom has already been authorised.
Farmer Geddon



Any quote from "John" gets an automatic ignore from me. The least reliable of the 'gospels'

So are you claiming that if you do good during your life, you have an automatic get in free card to heaven regardless of your personal beliefs?
Farmer Geddon

"John" never knew Jesus, what gives "John" the right to speak for Jesus?
Jim

Nope.
What I'm claiming is that the 'abundant life' - better translated 'life in all its' fullness' is for now. Here. Today.
That's the difference Christ makes in the lives of those who trust Him now.
We don't need to wait till we pop our clogs.
I know the transformation He made - and is still making - in my life; I would not swap it for anything.
Derek

Re: Does Christianity promote life..

Shaker wrote:
Farmer Geddon wrote:
... or does it glorify death?

It seems to me that the only thing Christians look forward to is death!

I agree. Remember that for mediaeval Christians the three greatest enemies were the world, the flesh and the devil. Christianity has always had a world-hating, pleasure-hating, life-denying stance: life in this world has to be denigrated as a sentence served in a vale of tears so that the much-vaunted post-mortem future life with a Middle Eastern woodwork enthusiast can be talked up. Whatever is taken away from one place is given to another: you can't inculcate the masses with a vision of a glorious pie in the sky for ever after by and by without running down this life in this world and making its pleasures (food and drink and especially sex) into something inherently bad and suitable for existing only within very tightly circumscribed limits. Marriage, for instance, is seen by Paul not as an inherently good thing in and of itself but a reluctant solution to a perceived problem, i.e. it's better to marry than to burn.

Mediaeval Christians, or rather, religious authorities had half of their work done for them because the vast majority of people in those days lived lives which were nasty, poor, brutish and short. In some parts of the world - principally areas of Africa - this is still the case. When people's lives are brief, ugly, miserable, deprived and pain-filled how much easier it becomes to flog them the miracle cure for their woes. It's a marketing man's wet dream.


The period you speak of is better known as the dark ages. A time when the spirit of god and the priesthood was taken from the earth at about the time of the death of the last apostle. A time when satin was unopposed and men's lusts and desires were readily available. That was the result of man taking the life of the redeemer of man. God cannot be blamed for the actions of men. What is true is that God wants us to be happy. He wants us to enjoy our mortal probation. He said "Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy." "These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full." The meek also shall increase their joy in the Lord, Isa. 29:19. I bring you good tidings of great joy, Luke 2:10 Your joy no man taketh away from you, John 16:22 The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, Gal. 5:22 The fruit thereof filled my soul with exceedingly great joy A condition of great happiness coming from righteous living. The purpose of mortal life is for all people to have joy. A full joy will come only through Jesus Christ (John 15:11;

If Christians look forward to death then I am one Christian that is scared to death of meeting my maker. I am not ready. I am to much of a sinner and need as much time as I can get to prepare myself. None of us know if we are going to make it, although there are some who irrationally say that they do. Yes, salvation comes to all and we will all be immortalized but eternal life with the father is predicated on that great and dreadful day of judgement when the books will be opened, and the book of life will be opened, and we will be judge by what is written in the book of life, what we did during our earthly probation. What is a surety is that we will all fall short of the glory of god. Only through the atonement can that gap be bridged. It will be after that judgement when the atonement of Christ either saves us or we will be subjected to the lower kingdoms of damnation. That, to me, is daunting and causes me sincere anxiety as nobody knows if they have met with the requirements to be in the presence of God. From my point of view I do not relish the experience.
Derek

Farmer Geddon wrote:


Any quote from "John" gets an automatic ignore from me. The least reliable of the 'gospels'

So are you claiming that if you do good during your life, you have an automatic get in free card to heaven regardless of your personal beliefs?


We all must stand before God, or his representatives, during the great and dreadful day of judgement. None of us can possible know the outcome of that. None of us will know if we have made it until the judgement and the power of the atonement has been fulfilled. You have a better chance should you spend your life doing good but nothing can be guaranteed. Remember, there are no denominations in heaven. Belonging to a certain religious organization does not guarantee you a place in heaven. It is all down to how we kept the commandments of God. There will be many good and honest individual in the Kingdom of God who have never walked inside a church at anytime in their lives but have lived a Christ like life.
Powwow

I have to laugh at atheists thinking they have a handle on what a Christian looks forward to. A big old LOL!!! I have to laugh at an atheist who actually thinks a Christian can't enjoy life right here and now. A big old LOL!!!
Powwow

I laugh at that atheist who would twist fighting for life to mean one is afraid of death.
Shaker would be a person sneaking into hospitals and whispering into the ears of the aged sick and dying, "pisst, just roll over and die already."
The Boyg

pow wow wrote:
I laugh at that atheist who would twist fighting for life to mean one is afraid of death.
Shaker would be a person sneaking into hospitals and whispering into the ears of the aged sick and dying, "pisst, just roll over and die already."


That's a bit over the top isn't it? I may disagree with Shaker on many things but I've never seen anything to suggest that his opinions on assisted death are motivated by anything other than compassion.
Ketty

Ralph2 wrote:

We all must stand before God, or his representatives, during the great and dreadful day of judgement.


'his representatives' is not Biblical.
Derek

Ketty wrote:
Ralph2 wrote:

We all must stand before God, or his representatives, during the great and dreadful day of judgement.


'his representatives' is not Biblical.


True, it is my opinion, as is the rest of it. I post my opinions based on my knowledge and experience. I do not actually know what the set up will be.
Ketty

Ralph2 wrote:

True, it is my opinion, as is the rest of it. I post my opinions based on my knowledge and experience. I do not actually know what the set up will be.


The Bible tells you: God alone will be your judge.
Shaker

The Boyg wrote:
pow wow wrote:
I laugh at that atheist who would twist fighting for life to mean one is afraid of death.
Shaker would be a person sneaking into hospitals and whispering into the ears of the aged sick and dying, "pisst, just roll over and die already."


That's a bit over the top isn't it? I may disagree with Shaker on many things but I've never seen anything to suggest that his opinions on assisted death are motivated by anything other than compassion.


Thank you for the support.

Your statement is absolutely right in all particulars, by the way. But of course, we're dealing with powsers now: he's not motivated by giving a fair and honest appraisal of somebody's views, and he's certainly not motivated to discuss or debate anything. As soon as he sees the word Shaker at the top of a post - any post - the fog descends, the eyes begin to swivel, the knees begin to jerk, the mouth starts a-frothing and whatever capacity for dialogue he may possess is lost.

Saying that people who are going to die anyway but face a short future of suffering, indignity and degradation (in their view) should be got out of the way by proxy for somebody else's benefit and convenience rather than their own desire to die at a time and in a manner of their own choosing is the sort of mindless fatuity which, I'm happy to say, makes some of the anti-assisted dying people who come out with such things look like morons. Their opinion, which they have every right to hold and promulgate, is already very much in the very, very small minority just about anywhere and everywhere you care to look. This sort of thing explains why they shall, rightly, remain so.
Powwow

Oh, ho ho, that aint so. Shaker has used the drain on resources in the medical field as an excuse to terminate pregnancies, should there be a chance of the baby having medical problems.
Compassion is not a motive that shines from Shaker. I haven't a doubt that Shaker would call for the death of any elderly person that can't take care of themselves any longer. Any person that doesn't in his opinion, add to society.
Robert Latimer went to prison for killing his severely disabled daughter. His daughter didn't have the ability of saying, no daddy, don't kill me, I want to live. Many and Shaker would probably be one, sided with Latimer. He was just being a compassionate daddy. NOT!
Interesting thing about the Latimer case is the fact that Latimer lied to the police. He told them that his daughter has simply fallen asleep. If he was so sure he was doing what was right for his daughter, he would not have lied and tried to cover his ass.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sto...timer-compassionate-homicide.html
Shaker

pow wow wrote:
Oh, ho ho, that aint so. Shaker has used the drain on resources in the medical field as an excuse to terminate pregnancies, should there be a chance of the baby having medical problems.

You'll have to remind me of where I said anything even slightly resembling that.
Quote:
Compassion is not a motive that shines from Shaker.

Not in your case, no. That's because you're an obnoxious arse.
Quote:
I haven't a doubt that Shaker would call for the death of any elderly person that can't take care of themselves any longer. Any person that doesn't in his opinion, add to society.

We already know how asinine your beliefs are in other spheres, so why on earth would anybody take seriously what you "haven't a doubt" on here?

Quote:
Interesting thing about the Latimer case is the fact that Latimer lied to the police.

Why doesn't the article to which you provided a link say this? In fact it says the exact opposite:

Quote:
Latimer told police he did it.
Derek

Ah hah Powwow, it is your turn for the vitriolic and malicious posts that only discredit the perpetrator and not the recipient. Don't let it get to you my friend, that is his goal. Remember that every insult delivered is a indicator of the type of person who delivers it. It is not nice to insult when you can amicably disagree. It is not nice people who do not nice things. Who is the one in error, you? Not really. I choose to be nice today.

I will listen to what you have to say. I listen to what everyone says. It gives one perspective. It is only the ignorant that do not read any other book other then their own.
Powwow

Shaker, come on man, try and remember. You said it to Cyber. He and you disagreed with terminating a baby in the womb because of medical probs and you did go on about future medical expense. Why play the, I can't remember thingy? Makes you appear senile.
Powwow

Oh Shaker I don't need to lie or make things up or play the I can't remember thingy.
Court documents and yes there is a link in an article backing up my statement.
Now read carefully and pay attention to the part where it tells us what Latimer originally told the RCMP.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/latimer-no-...illing-disabled-daughter-1.615463
Powwow

Ralph, Shaker and I have a very special relationship. lol
Shaker

pow wow wrote:
Shaker, come on man, try and remember. You said it to Cyber. He and you disagreed with terminating a baby in the womb because of medical probs and you did go on about future medical expense. Why play the, I can't remember thingy? Makes you appear senile.

Because I don't remember every conversation ever had on this or any other forum. One reason I come here is for the same reason that people go to the zoo, not expecting to have total recall of every idiot spouting yet more of his incoherent and poorly-spelt crap from one week to the next. If you have some evidence of what I'm supposed to have said, post it in the form of one of your ugly, unformatted links.
Shaker

pow wow wrote:
Court documents

Which you haven't provided.
Quote:
and yes there is a link in an article backing up my statement.

So? I read the article which you supplied and it nowhere said anything of the kind you claim.
Quote:
Now read carefully and pay attention to the part where it tells us what Latimer originally told the RCMP.

Which is a different link to the previous one, that's to say, this one, which nowhere says that
Quote:
Latimer lied to the police. He told them that his daughter has simply fallen asleep.

In fact, as previously pointed out, it says the exact opposite of this. How are we supposed to glean this supposed information when you don't provide it from the off, in the post in which you make this claim? You made a claim and posted a detailed link which not only failed to support the claim but said the opposite. And in the absence of any evidence we are supposed to believe the claim for what reasons? Sorry, not all of us go in for this whole accepting-as-true-on-the-basis-of-zero-evidence stuff. That's part and parcel of your religion, obviously, but we don't all share it.
Farmer Geddon

Doesn't the whole: if we believe in Christ Jesus-we will live forever, compared to: if you don't believe in Christ Jesus-you will suffer eternal damnation in hell.. eternal equating to a living death.. forever!!

Doesn't that make you realise that belief in"Christ Jesus" means you believe you have more to look forward to when you die, compared to achieving something as you live!!

Unlike the non-believers, who have nothing to look forward to.... because they just die, regardless of what they achieved in life?
Shaker

Farmer Geddon wrote:
Doesn't the whole: if we believe in Christ Jesus-we will live forever, compared to: if you don't believe in Christ Jesus-you will suffer eternal damnation in hell.. eternal equating to a living death.. forever!!

Depends who you ask. For example, this bright and persistent young lady in the audience asks Frank Turek (usual US Christian apologist type) if she's going to hell when she dies because she doesn't believe in the Christian god. After a lot of waffle, bluster and evasion Turek eventually plays the "Hell is separation from god" card - not really, on the whole, something likely to strike the average atheist as particularly onerous.


Link


The fact that the young lady persistently doesn't receive a perfectly simple and straightforward answer to a perfectly simple and straightforward question and still has to ask it at the 8:40 mark of a video 9:04 long speaks volumes.
Powwow

We all will die no matter what we have achieved. But yes, my after death futures so bright I gotta wear shades. I don't run to that death nor am I afraid of it at this point. When I face it I wouldn't be surprised if I feel a natural fear of it. But like mom, I will know this is what's what, set my jaw having a determined look on my face and meet death and the angelic escort that will be waiting to take me home. Now if I should die suddenly I will just think to myself, well what was all that fuss about anyways?
Powwow

Are you for real Shaker?
Can't you read? "CTN News "While Latimer INITIALLY TOLD POLICE TRACY HAD SIMPLY FALLEN ASLEEP..." Duh!!!

Or read this if you are able. He didn't make a confession until the following day Shaker. What do you think he told the cops on the day of Tracy's death? Uh, duh, I gassed my daughter? Really Shaker? And the cops went on home and didn't bother to arrest the killer till the next day?  Really. You're some piece of work. lol

http://www.spmlaw.ca/scdla/latimer6.htm
Farmer Geddon

Traps - not something christian apologists are guilty of then..

Johnny Boy - is there anything that you think your religion should apologise for?

As a follower of Christ Jesus, do you fear death?
Powwow

OK Shakster, Mr. Denial, let's try it this way.
Do you think the medical expense for both the profession and the maybe parents, should be taken into account on deciding the termination of a pre born that appears to have health issues?
Shaker

pow wow wrote:
Are you for real Shaker?
Can't you read? "CTN News "While Latimer INITIALLY TOLD POLICE TRACY HAD SIMPLY FALLEN ASLEEP..." Duh!!!

Which wasn't in the first article to which you linked in the same post where you made this claim ... DUH!!!
Farmer Geddon

Johhny Boy - Are you looking forward to death because you believe you have eternal life?
Powwow

Luci,
What is my religion exactly and what has this religion exactly done to you?
I don't fear death today. But as death draws close, I may have some natural fear for it. I mean come on, it's just something I've never experienced before. lol I will have the comfort of His Word and His angelic servants to lead me through death. That is His promise.
Farmer Geddon

Evasion noted - but how about an answer:

Johhny Boy - Are you looking forward to death because you believe you have eternal life?

A simple YES or NO will suffice...

Yes you are.

No you ain't...
Powwow

Shaker LOL, got ya again. You insinuating I made something up and me stickin it to ya. When will you ever learn? Doesn't this remind you of the BBC site, where you first accused me of making up the story about my government telling the clergy not to mention the name Jesus at the memorial for those lost in the crash of a Swsis plane into the Atlantic? Oh wait, you are Mr. Denial or Mr. Can't recall.

We all know the Latimer case here. When ya gonna stop being that doubting Thomas? lol
Farmer Geddon

Evasion noted Mr Moody - but how about an answer:

Jonny Boy - Are you looking forward to death because you believe you have eternal life?

A simple YES or NO will suffice...

Yes you are.

No you ain't...
Farmer Geddon

Ooop silence..

To all Christians out there:

Are you looking forward to death because you believe you have eternal life?

A simple YES or NO will suffice...

Yes you are.

No you ain't...
Ketty

Your question, not unusually, is flawed.
Farmer Geddon

In what way Ket..

Care to enlighten me?


Don't forget - I understand your understanding more than you EVER will....
Powwow

Of course I don't look forward to the process called death. I've never done that before. What awaits after that process is a whole different thing. What awaits after death is the exact opposite of death.
Tell ya something. Want to hear? Here we go. I betcha that all those soldiers in those trenches facing the Germans in WW1, Christian and non, experienced a natural fear of death. It's just very human is all. Oh and I would think the Germans had that same fear. Nothing to deny nor be ashamed about. Just being who we are.
Here's something else. Want to hear, here we go, Christians are not too good to be human. lol
Ketty

Farmer Geddon wrote:
In what way Ket..

Care to enlighten me?


Don't forget - I understand your understanding more than you EVER will....


In that case, you do not need an answer.  
Farmer Geddon

Blah Bah.. blah..

Do you look forward to death Mr Moody?

Why are YOU afraid?
Farmer Geddon

What do you believe is going to happen to you when you die?
Ketty

Farmer Geddon wrote:

What do you believe is going to happen to you when you die?


That's a discretely different question.  

Like all my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus, I will be with the Lord.
Powwow

Luci now calm down. I do not FEAR death today. Being human I might experience fear when death comes a knockin. That is human dear Luci. Why can't you accept this answer? What's your game oh godless one?
I've told you the reason a couple times, why I may experience fear. BECAUSE I'VE NEVER DUNNIT BEFORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There be your answer YET AGAIN, as to my reason why a fear.
Now Luci explain to ME, why you refuse to accept my answers. Tell your game man!

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