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LeClerc

Elijah and Enoch

Hi All

Farmer Geddon wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
............

Are you saying Enoch and Elijah never died but were taken straight to heaven ? ....


LeClerc


Lets start with Elijah.

2 Kings Chapter 2:11 "And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, which parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."

Are claiming that he died before turned into Dorothy?

Enoch can be pondered on in Genesis Chapter 5:24 "And Enoch walked with God, and he was not; for God took him"

What was he not, and was he dead when god took him?


According to the scriptures.

Did Elijah die ?

Did Enoch die ?



LeClerc
cyberman

Re: Elijah and Enoch

LeClerc wrote:

According to the scriptures.

Did Elijah die ?

Did Enoch die ?

LeClerc


It seems not. What do you think?
Jim

Re: Elijah and Enoch

From a straight reading of the scriptures, it would seem not.
However...
( there's always a 'however'....)
Paul writes, "As in Adam, all die..."
So, what do we make of the O.T passages?
I know the R.C. later stories of the 'assumption of Mary' were partly based on these O.T. passages,although there is no evidence for such an event.
LeClerc

Re: Elijah and Enoch

Hi Cyberman and Jim

cyberman wrote:
LeClerc wrote:

According to the scriptures.

Did Elijah die ?

Did Enoch die ?

LeClerc


It seems not. What do you think?


Jim wrote:
From a straight reading of the scriptures, it would seem not.
However...
( there's always a 'however'....)
Paul writes, "As in Adam, all die..."
So, what do we make of the O.T passages?
I know the R.C. later stories of the 'assumption of Mary' were partly based on these O.T. passages,although there is no evidence for such an event.


Lets look at Enoch first

Genesis 5
22 After he begot Methuselah, Enoch walked with God three hundred years, and had sons and daughters. 23 So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24 And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

If Enoch did not die then why does scripture say his days were three hundred and sixty five years ?

Turning to Hebrew 11
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

The all in the above passage includes Enoch so one must assume Enoch did die.

However in verse 5 we read
5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Maybe the answer is to be found in Luke 15
24For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Not sure here Cyberman and Jim but maybe Enoch never experienced the separation from YHWH all the years of his life because he walked with God although he did die physically.

Genesis does say Enoch walked with God.

What do you say ?

LeClerc
cyberman

Re: Elijah and Enoch

LeClerc wrote:
in verse 5 we read
5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death


Well, I'm glad you didn't include that spoiler earlier - but that seems to clinch it. The Bible is telling us that Enoch did not die.

Whether the Bible is telling it the way it was is, of course, a whole other question.
LeClerc

Re: Elijah and Enoch

Hi Cyberman

cyberman wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
in verse 5 we read
5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death


Well, I'm glad you didn't include that spoiler earlier - but that seems to clinch it. The Bible is telling us that Enoch did not die.

Whether the Bible is telling it the way it was is, of course, a whole other question.


Can you explain how the son was dead and yet was alive.

Luke 15
24For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

It depends upon the definition of death.

Why did the writer of Hebrews NOT say

5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not die

LeClerc
Honey 56

The faithful Jews who were chosen by YWYH as His own and walked with Him in life were looking forward to the resurrection on the last day.
So although thy died physically, they did not die spiritually by being cut off from God as Adam and Eve did. This is especially true since the Law was introduced in the time of Moses.

Jesus explains this in John, He also promised his followers then that they would never experience death.

John 11

21“Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.”

23Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

24Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

27“Yes, Lord,” she told him, “I believe that you are the Christ,b the Son of God, who was to come into the world


Often when death is talked about especially in the New Testament, it means spiritual death.

Honey
LeClerc

Hi Honey

Honey 56 wrote:
The faithful Jews who were chosen by YWYH as His own and walked with Him in life were looking forward to the resurrection on the last day.
So although thy died physically, they did not die spiritually by being cut off from God as Adam and Eve did. This is especially true since the Law was introduced in the time of Moses.

Jesus explains this in John, He also promised his followers then that they would never experience death.

John 11

21“Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.”

23Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

24Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

27“Yes, Lord,” she told him, “I believe that you are the Christ,b the Son of God, who was to come into the world


Often when death is talked about especially in the New Testament, it means spiritual death.

Honey


Thats my understanding also sis.

Enoch and Elijah could not have been taken to heaven.

The words of The Messiah, Y'shua.

John 3
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Blessings

LeClerc
Farmer Geddon

Re: Elijah and Enoch

LeClerc wrote:
.....  Lets look at Enoch first

Genesis 5
22 After he begot Methuselah, Enoch walked with God three hundred years, and had sons and daughters. 23 So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24 And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

If Enoch did not die then why does scripture say his days were three hundred and sixty five years ?


Oooo ooo Oo - Maybe Enoch was a year; I hear there are 365 days in a year!!

Quote:
Turning to Hebrew 11
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

The all in the above passage includes Enoch so one must assume Enoch did die.


You tenuously extract Enoch from this how?

Quote:
However in verse 5 we read
5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.


Going a bit backwards here aint'cha Chirpy?


It explains the whole point!

Quote:
Maybe the answer is to be found in Luke 15
24For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.


Or maybe it isn't!!

Quote:
Not sure here Cyberman and Jim but maybe Enoch never experienced the separation from YHWH all the years of his life because he walked with God although he did die physically.

Genesis does say Enoch walked with God.

What do you say ?

LeClerc


What does "Walk with God" actually mean?
Farmer Geddon

Honey 56 wrote:
The faithful Jews who were chosen by YWYH as His own and walked with Him in life were looking forward to the resurrection on the last day.
So although thy died physically, they did not die spiritually by being cut off from God as Adam and Eve did. This is especially true since the Law was introduced in the time of Moses.

Jesus explains this in John, He also promised his followers then that they would never experience death.

John 11

21“Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.”

23Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

24Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

27“Yes, Lord,” she told him, “I believe that you are the Christ,b the Son of God, who was to come into the world


Often when death is talked about especially in the New Testament, it means spiritual death.

Honey


And you extract the Elijah and Enoch still living stories from this how?
bnabernard

I'm going to ask Rimmer.

bernard (hug)
Lexilogio

bnabernard wrote:
I'm going to ask Rimmer.

bernard (hug)


Arnold Rimmer?  
bnabernard

Farmer Geddon wrote:
Honey 56 wrote:
The faithful Jews who were chosen by YWYH as His own and walked with Him in life were looking forward to the resurrection on the last day.
So although thy died physically, they did not die spiritually by being cut off from God as Adam and Eve did. This is especially true since the Law was introduced in the time of Moses.

Jesus explains this in John, He also promised his followers then that they would never experience death.

John 11

21“Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.”

23Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

24Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

27“Yes, Lord,” she told him, “I believe that you are the Christ,b the Son of God, who was to come into the world


Often when death is talked about especially in the New Testament, it means spiritual death.

Honey


And you extract the Elijah and Enoch still living stories from this how?


bump

Thats the one Lex,
Honey 56

Farmer Geddon wrote:
Honey 56 wrote:
The faithful Jews who were chosen by YWYH as His own and walked with Him in life were looking forward to the resurrection on the last day.
So although thy died physically, they did not die spiritually by being cut off from God as Adam and Eve did. This is especially true since the Law was introduced in the time of Moses.

Jesus explains this in John, He also promised his followers then that they would never experience death.

John 11

21“Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.”

23Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

24Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

27“Yes, Lord,” she told him, “I believe that you are the Christ,b the Son of God, who was to come into the world


Often when death is talked about especially in the New Testament, it means spiritual death.

Honey


And you extract the Elijah and Enoch still living stories from this how?


Hello Farmer,
I am sorry, but I don't see the point in responding to your posts whilst you are still convinced in your mind that I would be dishonest enough to post on this forum as a 'Lynne sockpuppet'

Honey
LeClerc

Re: Elijah and Enoch

Hi Farmer

Farmer Geddon wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
.....  Lets look at Enoch first

Turning to Hebrew 11
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

The all in the above passage includes Enoch so one must assume Enoch did die.


You tenuously extract Enoch from this how?



Can you please post your definition of the word ''all''

LeClerc
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
I'm going to ask Rimmer.

bernard (hug)


Rimmer can't help you Bernie but I know The Messiah, Y'shua can.

John 3
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

LeClerc
Farmer Geddon

We all know what all means, but maybe the propagandist who wrote Hebrews didn't mean it to be taken in the way you two seem to want to understand it?

After all, whoever wrote Hebrews admits in the same book

Hebrews 11; Verse 5:

"5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he didn’t see death, and he wasn’t found because God took him up.
He was given approval for having pleased God before he was taken up.

"5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”
For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God."

"5 By trusting, Hanokh was taken away from this life without seeing death — “He was not to be found, because God took him away” — for he has been attested as having been, prior to being taken away, well pleasing to God."

What does "without seeing death", "did not experience death", "didn't see death" mean to you?

It would be damn sloppy story-telling if the writer contradicted himself a few verses on!!
Farmer Geddon

Honey 56 wrote:
Farmer Geddon wrote:
Honey 56 wrote:
The faithful Jews who were chosen by YWYH as His own and walked with Him in life were looking forward to the resurrection on the last day.
So although thy died physically, they did not die spiritually by being cut off from God as Adam and Eve did. This is especially true since the Law was introduced in the time of Moses.

Jesus explains this in John, He also promised his followers then that they would never experience death.

John 11

21“Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.”

23Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

24Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

27“Yes, Lord,” she told him, “I believe that you are the Christ,b the Son of God, who was to come into the world


Often when death is talked about especially in the New Testament, it means spiritual death.

Honey


And you extract the Elijah and Enoch still living stories from this how?


Hello Farmer,
I am sorry, but I don't see the point in responding to your posts whilst you are still convinced in your mind that I would be dishonest enough to post on this forum as a 'Lynne sockpuppet'

Honey


So excuses instead of answers then.. to be expected I guess.

I take it back - you are nothing more than an acolyte of Chirpy, chirpy, cheep cheep!!

But seeing as you both adhere to the book called Hebrew..

What about this observation:

Farmer Geddon wrote:
We all know what all means, but maybe the propagandist who wrote Hebrews didn't mean it to be taken in the way you two seem to want to understand it?

After all, whoever wrote Hebrews admits in the same book

Hebrews 11; Verse 5:

"5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he didn’t see death, and he wasn’t found because God took him up.
He was given approval for having pleased God before he was taken up.

"5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”
For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God."

"5 By trusting, Hanokh was taken away from this life without seeing death — “He was not to be found, because God took him away” — for he has been attested as having been, prior to being taken away, well pleasing to God."

What does "without seeing death", "did not experience death", "didn't see death" mean to you?

It would be damn sloppy story-telling if the writer contradicted himself a few verses on!!


I await with bated breath any response that might make an iota of sense?
LeClerc

Hi Farmer

Farmer Geddon wrote:
We all know what all means, but maybe the propagandist who wrote Hebrews didn't mean it to be taken in the way you two seem to want to understand it?

After all, whoever wrote Hebrews admits in the same book

Hebrews 11; Verse 5:

"5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he didn’t see death, and he wasn’t found because God took him up.
He was given approval for having pleased God before he was taken up.

"5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”
For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God."

"5 By trusting, Hanokh was taken away from this life without seeing death — “He was not to be found, because God took him away” — for he has been attested as having been, prior to being taken away, well pleasing to God."

What does "without seeing death", "did not experience death", "didn't see death" mean to you?

It would be damn sloppy story-telling if the writer contradicted himself a few verses on!!


According to scripture how many deaths are there ?

LeClerc
bnabernard

Ah Leclerc is that an impersonation of JJ  

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Ah Leclerc is that an impersonation of JJ  

bernard (hug)


   
Farmer Geddon

LeClerc wrote:
Hi Farmer

Farmer Geddon wrote:
We all know what all means, but maybe the propagandist who wrote Hebrews didn't mean it to be taken in the way you two seem to want to understand it?

After all, whoever wrote Hebrews admits in the same book

Hebrews 11; Verse 5:

"5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he didn’t see death, and he wasn’t found because God took him up.
He was given approval for having pleased God before he was taken up.

"5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”
For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God."

"5 By trusting, Hanokh was taken away from this life without seeing death — “He was not to be found, because God took him away” — for he has been attested as having been, prior to being taken away, well pleasing to God."

What does "without seeing death", "did not experience death", "didn't see death" mean to you?

It would be damn sloppy story-telling if the writer contradicted himself a few verses on!!


According to scripture how many deaths are there ?

LeClerc


What does "without seeing death", "did not experience death", "didn't see death" mean to you?
Farmer Geddon

LeClerc wrote:
Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Ah Leclerc is that an impersonation of JJ  

bernard (hug)


   


Just to add - the jokes on you, you twonk!!
LeClerc

Hi Farmer

Farmer Geddon wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi Farmer

Farmer Geddon wrote:
We all know what all means, but maybe the propagandist who wrote Hebrews didn't mean it to be taken in the way you two seem to want to understand it?

After all, whoever wrote Hebrews admits in the same book

Hebrews 11; Verse 5:

"5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he didn’t see death, and he wasn’t found because God took him up.
He was given approval for having pleased God before he was taken up.

"5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”
For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God."

"5 By trusting, Hanokh was taken away from this life without seeing death — “He was not to be found, because God took him away” — for he has been attested as having been, prior to being taken away, well pleasing to God."

What does "without seeing death", "did not experience death", "didn't see death" mean to you?

It would be damn sloppy story-telling if the writer contradicted himself a few verses on!!


According to scripture how many deaths are there ?

LeClerc


What does "without seeing death", "did not experience death", "didn't see death" mean to you?


Did not experience a break in his walk with YHWH, before dying physically.

What did Adam and Eve experience when they ate from the tree which they were commanded not too ?

LeClerc
Farmer Geddon

"5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he didn’t see death.

"5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death"

"5 By trusting, Hanokh was taken away from this life without seeing death"

What does "without seeing death", "did not experience death", "didn't see death" mean to you?

Care to point out in "Scripture" where it states that Enoch died physically?

**ETA**

Every now and then illiterates come along to prove me right..

It's a shame to mock them. but it has to be done!
LeClerc

Hi Farmer

Farmer Geddon wrote:
"5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he didn’t see death.

"5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death"

"5 By trusting, Hanokh was taken away from this life without seeing death"

What does "without seeing death", "did not experience death", "didn't see death" mean to you?

Care to point out in "Scripture" where it states that Enoch died physically?

**ETA**

Every now and then illiterates come along to prove me right..

It's a shame to mock them. but it has to be done!


Hebrews 11
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises,

The ''all'' includes Enoch.

LeClerc
Farmer Geddon

Awww- you're one of those who wears blinkers.. no it doesn't - how could it?

Why would the writer of Hebrews in one voice claim that Enoch didn't die and use scriptural evidence to back up this claim, and then make a major cock-up a few verses later?

"5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he didn’t see death.

"5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death"

"5 By trusting, Hanokh was taken away from this life without seeing death"

What does "without seeing death", "did not experience death", "didn't see death" mean to you?

Care to point out in "Scripture" where it states that Enoch died physically?
LeClerc

Hi Farmer

Farmer Geddon wrote:
Awww- you're one of those who wears blinkers.. no it doesn't - how could it?

Why would the writer of Hebrews in one voice claim that Enoch didn't die and use scriptural evidence to back up this claim, and then make a major cock-up a few verses later?


Check out the Greek used by the writer.

11:5  Πίστει Ἑνὼχ μετετέθη τοῦ μὴ ἰδεῖν θάνατον καὶ οὐχ εὑρίσκετο, διότι μετέθηκεν αὐτὸν ὁ θεός πρὸ γὰρ τῆς μεταθέσεως αὐτοῦ μεμαρτύρηται εὐηρεστηκέναι τῷ θεῷ

11:13  Κατὰ πίστιν ἀπέθανον οὗτοι πάντες μὴ λαβόντες τὰς ἐπαγγελίας ἀλλὰ πόῤῥωθεν αὐτὰς ἰδόντες καὶ πεισθέντες, καὶ ἀσπασάμενοι καὶ ὁμολογήσαντες ὅτι ξένοι καὶ παρεπίδημοί εἰσιν ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς

Does the author use the same Greek word ?

No and there is a reason

Strong's G2288 - thanatos
the misery of the soul arising from sin, which begins on earth but lasts and increases after the death of the body in hell

Strong's G599 - apothnēskō
of the natural death of man

LeClerc
bnabernard

Morning Leclerc
Nice day sun shinning  

Does that bring Moses into the frame as a comparison to Yeshua?
And how does it reflect on nothing going up that aint come down?



bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Morning Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Morning Leclerc
Nice day sun shinning  

Does that bring Moses into the frame as a comparison to Yeshua?
And how does it reflect on nothing going up that aint come down?

bernard (hug)


That depends on whether or not you agree Enoch died naturally.

LeClerc
Farmer Geddon

What are you chundering on about Chirpy?

OK in verse 5 the writer uses θάνατος thanatos: Definition - the death of the body, that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended with the implied idea of future misery in hell.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/thanatos.html

Compared to ἀποθνῄσκω apothnēskō: Definition - to die, of the natural death of man.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/apothnesko.html

The important bit in verse 5 is εἴδω eidō: that he should - μή mē: NOT - εἴδω eidō: see - θάνατος thanatos: the death of the body, that separation of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bi...amp;c=11&v=1&t=KJV#conc/5

Basically it translates as Enoch didn't see ἀποθνῄσκω apothnēskō: Definition - to die, of the natural death of man.


Why can you not see this?









LeClerc

Hi Farmer

Farmer Geddon wrote:
What are you chundering on about Chirpy?

OK in verse 5 the writer uses θάνατος thanatos: Definition - the death of the body, that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended with the implied idea of future misery in hell.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/thanatos.html

Compared to ἀποθνῄσκω apothnēskō: Definition - to die, of the natural death of man.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/apothnesko.html

The important bit in verse 5 is εἴδω eidō: that he should - μή mē: NOT - εἴδω eidō: see - θάνατος thanatos: the death of the body, that separation of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bi...amp;c=11&v=1&t=KJV#conc/5

Basically it translates as Enoch didn't see ἀποθνῄσκω apothnēskō: Definition - to die, of the natural death of man.


Why can you not see this?



Try again this time scroll down a bit further

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/thanatos.html

the misery of the soul arising from sin, which begins on earth but lasts and increases after the death of the body in hell

Basically it translates as Enoch didn't see ''thanatos'' the misery of the soul arising from sin. Why because as scripture teaches He walked with God.

Genesis 5
22 After he begot Methuselah, Enoch walked with God three hundred years, and had sons and daughters.

Basically you have verse 5 saying Enoch did not see apothnēskō, apothnēskō is NOT in verse 5 you have inserted it when it should not be there.

What is so difficult for you to understand Farmer ??

LeClerc
Farmer Geddon

Absolutely nothing to do with the verses in question..

Ah fuck it - I give in, I have won the debate regardless of how many swerves you try to pull.

Why can't you just admit you are wrong?
bnabernard

LeClerc wrote:
Morning Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Morning Leclerc
Nice day sun shinning  

Does that bring Moses into the frame as a comparison to Yeshua?
And how does it reflect on nothing going up that aint come down?

bernard (hug)


That depends on whether or not you agree Enoch died naturally.

LeClerc


Now somewhere I seem to recall a mention of the dead burying the dead.

Bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Morning Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Morning Leclerc
Nice day sun shinning  

Does that bring Moses into the frame as a comparison to Yeshua?
And how does it reflect on nothing going up that aint come down?

bernard (hug)


That depends on whether or not you agree Enoch died naturally.

LeClerc


Now somewhere I seem to recall a mention of the dead burying the dead.

Bernard (hug)


Bernie I could hug you.

How can the dead (who have died a natural death) bury those who have also died a natural death ?

Dead here must therefore carry two meanings.

Which is what the writer of Hebrews was saying regarding Enoch.



LeClerc
bnabernard

LeClerc wrote:
Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Morning Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Morning Leclerc
Nice day sun shinning  

Does that bring Moses into the frame as a comparison to Yeshua?
And how does it reflect on nothing going up that aint come down?

bernard (hug)


That depends on whether or not you agree Enoch died naturally.

LeClerc


Now somewhere I seem to recall a mention of the dead burying the dead.

Bernard (hug)


Bernie I could hug you.

How can the dead (who have died a natural death) bury those who have also died a natural death ?

Dead here must therefore carry two meanings.

Which is what the writer of Hebrews was saying regarding Enoch.



LeClerc


Were the words 'let the dead bury the dead' spoken to people who would not see death?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:

Were the words 'let the dead bury the dead' spoken to people who would not see death?
bernard (hug)


Please define death.

LeClerc
bnabernard

Let's stick with what you have said and examine that eh  

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Let's stick with what you have said and examine that eh  

bernard (hug)


No problem Bernie but first we need a definition of death since your definition might be differnet from that revealed in the scriptures.  

LeClerc
bnabernard

LeClerc wrote:
Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Let's stick with what you have said and examine that eh  

bernard (hug)


No problem Bernie but first we need a definition of death since your definition might be differnet from that revealed in the scriptures.  

LeClerc


I'm happy to run with your definition as you see it, so if you like to iterate anything that you think I might have missed we can deal with it, after all you are far more worthy of producing scripture than I as I've forgotten more than I remember and somertimes require some help, if you would be so kind in assisting this old git whose prone to senior moments  

bernard (hug)
Honey 56

What did Jesus mean when He said…..

"Let the dead bury their own **dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God."

**nekrós (an adjective, derived from nekys, "a corpse, a dead body") – dead; literally, "what lacks life"; dead; (figuratively) not able to respond to impulses, or perform functions ("unable, ineffective, dead, powerless," ; unresponsive to life-giving influences (opportunities); inoperative to the things of God.


When read in context, the scripture makes much more sense, than when one or two verses are taken out of context…….


57As they were walking along the road, a man said to him, “I will follow you wherever you go.”
58Jesus replied, “Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”
59He said to another man, “Follow me.”
But the man replied, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.”
60Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.” 61Still another said, “I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say good-by to my family.”
62Jesus replied, “No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.”


Death versus death......

4“I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.
Luke 11

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10

Honey
bnabernard

Hi Honey

Who killed Adam, would it be fair to say that God did it? (as in withdrew his life or such like)

bernard (hug)
Honey 56

bnabernard wrote:
Hi Honey

Who killed Adam, would it be fair to say that God did it? (as in withdrew his life or such like)

bernard (hug)



Hi Bernard.

Adam died spiritually when he was tempted to disobey God by satan and Eve, he was separated that day from the Lord God by his sin (as was the rest of humanity from that day forward, until Jesus came) and was evicted from Eden, he died physically after living a long and productive life.

It is explained in Romans 5....

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous



Honey
LeClerc

Hi Honey and Bernie

Honey 56 wrote:
bnabernard wrote:
Hi Honey

Who killed Adam, would it be fair to say that God did it? (as in withdrew his life or such like)

bernard (hug)



Hi Bernard.

Adam died spiritually when he was tempted to disobey God by satan and Eve, he was separated that day from the Lord God by his sin (as was the rest of humanity from that day forward, until Jesus came) and was evicted from Eden, he died physically after living a long and productive life.

It is explained in Romans 5....

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous


Honey


If I may add to your post sis.

In response to your question Bernie.

Isaiah 59
1 YHWH’s arm is not too short to save,
nor is his ear too dull to hear.
2 Rather, it is your own crimes
that separate you from your God;
your sins have hidden his face from you,
so that he doesn’t hear.


Because He is love YHWH did not desire to see Adam and Eve live forever physically in their fallen state because of all the pain and suffering YHWH knew they would endure.

Rather He allowed them to die physically and through the promised seed, The Messiah Y'shua, victory over sin and death would come, defeating the enemy forever, and throwing it finally, into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20
14 Then Death and Sh’ol were hurled into the lake of fire. This is the second death — the lake of fire.

After which

Revelation 21
4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. There will no longer be any death; and there will no longer be any mourning, crying or pain; because the old order has passed away.”

LeClerc
Honey 56

Hi LeClerc,
Absolutely bro.,  

Honey
bnabernard

So, are we agreed that God killed Adam?

bernard (hug)
Honey 56

bnabernard wrote:
So, are we agreed that God killed Adam?

bernard (hug)


I personally believe that it would be more correct to say that the Lord God allowed Adam to die, by not permitting him to live forever.

Honey
bnabernard

Honey 56 wrote:
bnabernard wrote:
So, are we agreed that God killed Adam?

bernard (hug)


I personally believe that it would be more correct to say that the Lord God allowed Adam to die, by not permitting him to live forever.

Honey


Does that mean you have a problem admiting the truth of a matter?

While we are on the subject I did post of man being like a laptop, and that God was the mains, that once unpluged man just ran down and died. and you asked for scriptural proof, however you seem now to be saying the same thing back to me?

bernard (hug)
Farmer Geddon

Lets keep this in the realms of your original point about Enoch shall we, instead of descending into fantasy!

Even your new-found translation; the so-called "Complete Jewish Bible" states, and it is adamant that Enoch didn't die, and I quote:

5 By trusting, Hanokh was taken away from this life without seeing death — “He was not to be found, because God took him away” — for he has been attested as having been, prior to being taken away, well pleasing to God. 6 And without trusting, it is impossible to be well pleasing to God, because whoever approaches him must trust that he does exist and that he becomes a Rewarder to those who seek him out.  

Which absolutely and totally negates what was written later:

13 All these people kept on trusting until they died, without receiving what had been promised. They had only seen it and welcomed it from a distance, while acknowledging that they were aliens and temporary residents on the earth. (Although this is wandering into David Ike/Tom Cruise territory)!!

http://www.biblegateway.com/passa...11&version=CJB#fen-CJB-30199e

Enoch was the only one in the list who was deemed "well pleasing" to god, so god kept his promise...

Is this another pointless response?
bnabernard

I'm in full agreement with you FG me ole duck and it seems that the others are too though they can't see it, it remains with God to decide who dies and who not and in the case of Enoch and Elijah there would be a case for the not dieing in any shape or form, one might say they were well connected.    oh I should not laugh at me own jokes but someone has to.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Farmer

Farmer Geddon wrote:
Lets keep this in the realms of your original point about Enoch shall we, instead of descending into fantasy!

Even your new-found translation; the so-called "Complete Jewish Bible" states, and it is adamant that Enoch didn't die, and I quote:

5 By trusting, Hanokh was taken away from this life without seeing death — “He was not to be found, because God took him away” — for he has been attested as having been, prior to being taken away, well pleasing to God. 6 And without trusting, it is impossible to be well pleasing to God, because whoever approaches him must trust that he does exist and that he becomes a Rewarder to those who seek him out.  

Which absolutely and totally negates what was written later:

13 All these people kept on trusting until they died, without receiving what had been promised. They had only seen it and welcomed it from a distance, while acknowledging that they were aliens and temporary residents on the earth. (Although this is wandering into David Ike/Tom Cruise territory)!!

http://www.biblegateway.com/passa...11&version=CJB#fen-CJB-30199e

Enoch was the only one in the list who was deemed "well pleasing" to god, so god kept his promise...

Is this another pointless response?


We are making progress Farmer, why do you say the former negates the latter?

What you are faced with, is what appears to be a contradiction, but there is noe if we allow scripture to interpret scripture.

What does ''taken away'' mean in the following scripture ?

Isaiah 57 CJB
The righteous person perishes,
and nobody gives it a thought.
Godly men are taken away,
and no one understands
that the righteous person is taken away
from the evil yet to come.


Both verses in Hebrews 11 re Enoch hold true when one understands.

LeClerc
Farmer Geddon


Link


If the translation is from the Septuagint, then the Greek word in the first part of the passage that you have highlighted is αἴρονται:

Parse: Verb:

Meaning: to take up, raise, lift up, away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up)

The second highlighted word is ἦρται:

Parse: Verb:

Meaning: to take up, raise, lift up, away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).

Both rooted in the Greek αἴρω which means "to take up, raise, lift up"

I would say all of the above?

What does αἴρω mean to you?
LeClerc

Hi Farmer

Farmer Geddon wrote:

What does αἴρω mean to you?


Within the context of the verses in question, taken from the Septuagint.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G142

h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence

i) cause to cease


LeClerc
Farmer Geddon

Very good - but it's not what the actual words used in the translation of Isaiah 57 in the Septuagint mean ..

There are two words/phrases which you highlighted in your CJB quote:

Quote:
The righteous person perishes,
and nobody gives it a thought.
Godly men are taken away:


The actual word used is αἴρονται | Verb: pres Pass Ind 3rd Plur; Meaning: to take up, raise, lift up, away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up)

And

Quote:
and no one understands
that the righteous person is taken away:


Again the actual word used is ἦρται | Verb: Perf Pass Ind 3rd Sing and guess what?

It also means: to take up, raise, lift up, away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up)

As for your blue letter definition of αἴρω, I love the way you absolutely ignored the vast majority of definitions:

1) to raise up, elevate, lift up

a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones

b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand

c) to draw up: a fish

2) to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear

3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off

a) to move from its place

b) to take off or away what is attached to anything

c) to remove

d) to carry off, carry away with one

e) to appropriate what is taken

f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force


To use this to reinforce your misconceptions:


g) to take and apply to any use and used the two last bottom feeders to prove you wrong?

I see none of the entries applying to Isaiah 57, the reason being is αἴρω isn't actually used in Isaiah 57 - I was checking to see if you were paying attention!!
LeClerc

Hi Farmer

Farmer Geddon wrote:
Very good - but it's not what the actual words used in the translation of Isaiah 57 in the Septuagint mean ..

I see none of the entries applying to Isaiah 57, the reason being is αἴρω isn't actually used in Isaiah 57 - I was checking to see if you were paying attention!!


Hope the link below helps in putting and end to the struggle you appear to be having in understanding the passage.

Just hover your pointer over the Greek words αἴροντα and ἠρται then move to the the down arrow.

http://www.ericlevy.com/lxx/?Tran...enton&Book=Isa&Chapter=57

It might also help you understand the passage if you read it again

Isaiah 57 CJB
The righteous person perishes, and nobody gives it a thought.
Godly men are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous person is taken away from the evil yet to come.


How are Godly men and the righteous person taken away ?

LeClerc
bnabernard

Then came Jesus forth, wearing the crown of thorns, and the purple robe. And [Pilate] saith unto them, Behold the man!
...........
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Farmer Geddon

LeClerc wrote:
....

Hope the link below helps in putting and end to the struggle you appear to be having in understanding the passage.

Just hover your pointer over the Greek words αἴροντα and ἠρται then move to the the down arrow.

http://www.ericlevy.com/lxx/?Tran...enton&Book=Isa&Chapter=57

It might also help you understand the passage if you read it again

Isaiah 57 CJB
The righteous person perishes, and nobody gives it a thought.
Godly men are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous person is taken away from the evil yet to come.


How are Godly men and the righteous person taken away ?

LeClerc


Nope; it doesn't help - because it is full of more bullshit than JJ's sites..

In Fact I think Constantine had it "right":

"Give me a religion I can control, and I will rule the known world". [SIC]

Jesus - Aramaic, perhaps a bit of Hebrew/Greek.

In the time of Paul/Saul - Greek, perhaps a hint of Roman/Hebrew.

Mark - obviously Aramaic/Hebrew, perhaps Greek.

Matthew - Hebrew and Greek.

Luke - Greek.

John - Greek and Latin..


The Catholic Church - Latin.

11 hundred years of oppression of any other language but "Latin", so the church could promote the "Logos" to the 'illiterate' - Priceless!!



In your face!!



:()
LeClerc

Hi Farmer

Farmer Geddon wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
....

Hope the link below helps in putting and end to the struggle you appear to be having in understanding the passage.

Just hover your pointer over the Greek words αἴροντα and ἠρται then move to the the down arrow.

http://www.ericlevy.com/lxx/?Tran...enton&Book=Isa&Chapter=57

It might also help you understand the passage if you read it again

Isaiah 57 CJB
The righteous person perishes, and nobody gives it a thought.
Godly men are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous person is taken away from the evil yet to come.


How are Godly men and the righteous person taken away ?

LeClerc


Nope; it doesn't help - because it is full of more bullshit than JJ's sites..

In Fact I think Constantine had it "right":

"Give me a religion I can control, and I will rule the known world". [SIC]

Jesus - Aramaic, perhaps a bit of Hebrew/Greek.

In the time of Paul/Saul - Greek, perhaps a hint of Roman/Hebrew.

Mark - obviously Aramaic/Hebrew, perhaps Greek.

Matthew - Hebrew and Greek.

Luke - Greek.

John - Greek and Latin..


The Catholic Church - Latin.

11 hundred years of oppression of any other language but "Latin", so the church could promote the "Logos" to the 'illiterate' - Priceless!!

In your face!!

:()


Hope the link below helps in putting and end to the struggle you appear to be having in understanding the passage.

Just hover your pointer over the Greek words αἴροντα and ἠρται then move to the the down arrow.

http://www.ericlevy.com/lxx/?Tran...enton&Book=Isa&Chapter=57

It might also help you understand the passage if you read it again

Isaiah 57 CJB
The righteous person perishes, and nobody gives it a thought.
Godly men are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous person is taken away from the evil yet to come.


How are Godly men and the righteous person taken away ?

An answer to the question might be a start.

LeClerc
Farmer Geddon

Can I freely join your Cult?

Or do I need to at least have to suck your potion before I understand what the uck your on about?
LeClerc

Hi Farmer

Farmer Geddon wrote:
Can I freely join your Cult?


There is no cult Farmer, but you can become a follower of The Messiah, Y'shua, what is required is Godly sorrow.

2 Corinthians 2
9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.



LeClerc
bnabernard

A question raises it'self, what perishes and what does not perish?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
A question raises it'self, what perishes and what does not perish?

bernard (hug)


If one does not die before one experiences death then that one maybe subject to the second death.

However, some who die will not experience death if they are alive when Y’shua returns.

LeClerc
bnabernard

LeClerc

Therefore what is perishing and what is not?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
LeClerc

Therefore what is perishing and what is not?

bernard (hug)


That depends Bernie on who you believe Y'shua is.

Deuteronomy 8 NWT
19“And it must occur that if you should at all forget Jehovah your God and you should actually walk after other gods and serve them and bow down to them, I do bear witness against ​YOU​ today that ​YOU​ people will absolutely perish

According to what I understand you believe, the followers of The Messiah, Y'shua, will perish.

LeClerc
bnabernard

Quote:

According to what I understand you believe, the followers of The Messiah, Y'shua, will perish.


Then understanding is not your strong point so we need to hone some skills as a man is open to understanding according to the evidence, and at this point I find few followers of Yeshua to judge my responce, while I find many followers of Jesus who weight my judgement in a negative fashion.

Back to the question, we have not established what is perishin and what is not, from your understanding, your learned understanding and how that understanding is acheived.
What is perishing and what is not?

We can, as we share a journey of coming to understand the truth af a situation share thoughts, share thoughts even as facts if that is what they have become to us, but either way in a journey towards a truth each may stumble and require a helping hand, me, you, the other members.
Sometimes coming to an understanding can be difficult as many understandings are fairly well established, however when we see that they are established well in one place we find they are rejected elswhere.

Perhaps we could ask what happens when the law gets brocken, does the law perish  or does the one breaking the law perish?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:

Perhaps we could ask what happens when the law gets brocken, does the law perish  or does the one breaking the law perish?
bernard (hug)


Lets start at the beginning Bernie. Which Torah did Adam break ?

LeClerc
bnabernard

Thats your begining not mine, had you have paid attention and considered more then I would speak more on the subject of the law, however.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Thats your begining not mine, had you have paid attention and considered more then I would speak more on the subject of the law, however.

bernard (hug)


Can you please define law ?

LeClerc
bnabernard

Time for you to walk alone for a while.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Time for you to walk alone for a while.
bernard (hug)


Bernie what is so difficult regarding the definition of Law.

bnabernard wrote:
Thats your begining not mine, had you have paid attention and considered more then I would speak more on the subject of the law, however.

bernard (hug)


Can you please define Law ?

LeClerc
bnabernard

If the law were to answer you how would it describe itself?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
If the law were to answer you how would it describe itself?

bernard (hug)


Psalm 19 CJB
8 The Torah of Adonai is perfect, restoring the inner person.
The instruction of Adonai is sure, making wise the thoughtless.


LeClerc
bnabernard

If the law were to answer you how would it describe itself?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
If the law were to answer you how would it describe itself?

bernard (hug)


Psalm 19 CJB
8 The Torah of Adonai is perfect, restoring the inner person.
The instruction of Adonai is sure, making wise the thoughtless.


LeClerc
bnabernard

If the law were to answer you how would it describe itself?

More thought required?

Bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
If the law were to answer you how would it describe itself?

More thought required?

Bernard (hug)


My thoughts count for nought Bernie.

You have the answer from the scriptures.

Psalm 19 CJB
8 The Torah of Adonai is perfect, restoring the inner person.
The instruction of Adonai is sure, making wise the thoughtless.


LeClerc
bnabernard

I see LeClerc you took a confined representation and opinion rather than address the law as I suggested.

I asked 'How would the law describe itself?'

From your quote are you saying that the law would reply, I AM Perfect?

Perhaps as you know it to be perfect are you saying that it knowing what you know would therefore reply. I am what I am?

What reply are you getting from the law when it is asked to describe itself?

Perhaps you are having a problem because you can't see it, ask it to show you it's face.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
I see LeClerc you took a confined representation and opinion rather than address the law as I suggested.

I asked 'How would the law describe itself?'

From your quote are you saying that the law would reply, I AM Perfect?

Perhaps as you know it to be perfect are you saying that it knowing what you know would therefore reply. I am what I am?

What reply are you getting from the law when it is asked to describe itself?

Perhaps you are having a problem because you can't see it, ask it to show you it's face.

bernard (hug)


During my earthly life so far, I have gazed at the face of the law many, many, times and like the man who gazed at his face in a mirror, then having looked at himself went away and immediately forgot what he saw, I too went  away and immediately forgot what I saw.

James 1
23 For whoever hears the Word but doesn’t do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror, 24 who looks at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like.

It was not until I stood and gazed intently at the face of the law, which is perfect, then instead of walking away and forgetting what I saw, I saw how sinful and wretched I was.

Romans 3
20 For in his sight no one alive will be considered righteous on the ground of legalistic observance of Torah commands, because what Torah really does is show people how sinful they are.

To actually put into words what happened next is difficult, unless the person one is sharing one’s experience with has also experienced what took place themselves.

Now Bernie I have answered your question, now please answer mine.
Have you seen the face of the law, and if you have, what took place next in your life?

LeClerc
bnabernard

LeClerc Hi

Thanks for the insight, however though candid not candid anough, did you not find it a work to sin, that is was your heart in it, did you actualy thrive for sin.

You see there are those that thrive for sin and those who have to work at it, one has his eyes opened the other gives up the struggle and gives in to his heart.


Quote:
Romans 3
20 For in his sight no one alive will be considered righteous on the ground of legalistic observance of Torah commands, because what Torah really does is show people how sinful they are.


Others can be convinced of sin, and this is where the keepers of the rules and I use rules because law is protected by rules, law being of God and rules that which God puts in place to uphold and protect the law, the law being beyond understanding untill the law is revealed through sin, teachers used rules as law without the mitigation that was used concerning David and his lustful passion.

I often use by way of example a man picking up kindling on the sabbath, he should be stoned to death, however if a man is picking up kindling on the sabbath then there is a reason less he be flying in the face of God, in iether respect it is not the mans fault but the fault of the community, ie why has the man such need, so it shows the people how sinful they are.

With respect to myself, I bear no witness to myself that is for others to do according to their own guidence, I seek and continue on my search as I am allowed, I listen and comment and as for now I pose the question which relates to Enoch, why was Noah allowed to be outnumbered by evil spirits, and journey with that in mind.

For those who seek God I offer this help, Alaska is like God, the Enuite is like the angel, and the fridge is what is needed to be near God when one is not in Alaska.
Some need it explained further, others get it and have their eyes opened.
To take it further and understand the war of the spirits, another story.

bernard (hug)
bnabernard

So regard Enoch, a rightious man who walked with God at the time of the Nephlin, a man who was asked to interceded on behalf of the fallen angels to negotiate for the Nephlin that they might not perish.

Subject to negotiations the Nephlin were stripped of their habitat of the flesh and came to be known post flood as evil spirits reflecting their pre flood evil towards mankind and their lack of the knowledge of the Father.

Why and what happened next, and why want to know, because I do   it's not hard to see why the Hindu faith and others have this leaning towards animal worship, and rebirth or reincarnation, or why when a legion are found they request casting into the swine, but potted explanations of the whole beyond me tonight.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
LeClerc Hi
I often use by way of example a man picking up kindling on the sabbath, he should be stoned to death, however if a man is picking up kindling on the sabbath then there is a reason less he be flying in the face of God, in iether respect it is not the mans fault but the fault of the community, ie why has the man such need, so it shows the people how sinful they are.
bernard (hug)


What does Torah actually teach regarding this Bernie ?

LeClerc
bnabernard

That there is a narrow road and a wide road.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
That there is a narrow road and a wide road.

bernard (hug)


With regard to kindling a fire on the Sabbath, why would the narrow road lead to life and the wide road lead to death ?

LeClerc
bnabernard

With regard to rules they are there for a purpose, and as childre we rarely understand, comprehend the rules, but rules are there and rules are there on account of rulership.
Pushing aside a rule gives space for another rule, the more rules you push aside the more rules you have as you introduce these caveats, gradualy the rule becomes wide untill you lose your way and to quote another saying, never mind the quality feel the width becomes the order of the day.
So the answer to your question lies within you to be answered for yourself.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

Okay lets return to this,


bnabernard wrote:
LeClerc Hi
I often use by way of example a man picking up kindling on the sabbath, he should be stoned to death, however if a man is picking up kindling on the sabbath then there is a reason less he be flying in the face of God, in iether respect it is not the mans fault but the fault of the community, ie why has the man such need, so it shows the people how sinful they are.
bernard (hug)



What does Torah actually teach regarding this Bernie ?

Are you confusing the Torah with the Oral Law.

Once we understand what Torah teaches then maybe we can move on.

LeClerc
bnabernard

There is one body and it is resposible for all it's parts.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
There is one body and it is resposible for all it's parts.

bernard (hug)


What did Y'shua teach regarding the Tradition of the Elders ?

Matthew 15
15 Then some P’rushim and Torah-teachers from Yerushalayim came to Yeshua and asked him, 2 “Why is it that your talmidim break the Tradition of the Elders? They don’t do n’tilat-yadayim before they eat!” 3 He answered, “Indeed, why do you break the command of God by your tradition?

Y'shua did not come to put new wine in old wineskins.

LeClerc
bnabernard

Quote:
3 He answered, “Indeed, why do you break the command of God by your tradition?

Y'shua did not come to put new wine in old wineskins.
Why do you chose this answer?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Quote:
3 He answered, “Indeed, why do you break the command of God by your tradition?

Y'shua did not come to put new wine in old wineskins.
Why do you chose this answer?

bernard (hug)


Why did I Bernie ?

What is meant by the Tradition of The Elders ?

LeClerc
bnabernard

Is there an offence against God and an offence against man?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Is there an offence against God and an offence against man?

bernard (hug)


Answering this question will answer your question

What is meant by the Tradition of The Elders ?

LeClerc
bnabernard

Then answer it.

Bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Then answer it.
Bernard (hug)


The Tradition of the Elders is the Oral Law.

LeClerc
bnabernard

Then what is the answer regarding the broad and the narrow?
Or is it as I said?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Then what is the answer regarding the broad and the narrow?
Or is it as I said?
bernard (hug)


That depends Bernie on whether what you have quoted below

bnabernard wrote:

LeClerc Hi
I often use by way of example a man picking up kindling on the sabbath, he should be stoned to death, however if a man is picking up kindling on the sabbath then there is a reason less he be flying in the face of God, in iether respect it is not the mans fault but the fault of the community, ie why has the man such need, so it shows the people how sinful they are.
bernard (hug)


Is taken from the Torah or the Tradition of The Elders.

LeClerc
bnabernard

Ok, I'll let you do as you will with that then, but out of interest what would you say is the effective law?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Ok, I'll let you do as you will with that then, but out of interest what would you say is the effective law?

bernard (hug)


You have made statement below regarding the broad and narrow.

I have asked a question which needs answer.

bnabernard wrote:
Then what is the answer regarding the broad and the narrow?
Or is it as I said?
bernard (hug)


That depends Bernie on whether what you have quoted below

bnabernard wrote:

LeClerc Hi
I often use by way of example a man picking up kindling on the sabbath, he should be stoned to death, however if a man is picking up kindling on the sabbath then there is a reason less he be flying in the face of God, in iether respect it is not the mans fault but the fault of the community, ie why has the man such need, so it shows the people how sinful they are.
bernard (hug)


Is taken from the Torah or the Tradition of The Elders.

Bernie do you understand the ''man picking up kindling'' from the Tradition of The Elders or from The Torah ?

LeClerc
bnabernard

Hi LeClerc

You seem to be having some nature of a problem, you say that the Tradition is oral law, and I presume, (so need to have a presumption verified or otherwise explained) that you feel the oral law in some way at fault and negated by the use of the word tradition.

Can we verify that before we move on, are you hung up perhaps on Yeshuah criticising people for teaching and acting according to tradition?

bernard (hug)
Farmer Geddon

So did Enoch Die a natural death or not?
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Hi LeClerc

You seem to be having some nature of a problem, you say that the Tradition is oral law, and I presume, (so need to have a presumption verified or otherwise explained) that you feel the oral law in some way at fault and negated by the use of the word tradition.

Can we verify that before we move on, are you hung up perhaps on Yeshuah criticising people for teaching and acting according to tradition?

bernard (hug)


Luke 6
6 Now it happened on the second Sabbath after the first that He went through the grainfields. And His disciples plucked the heads of grain and ate them, rubbing them in their hands. 2 And some of the Pharisees said to them, “Why are you doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath?”

Where does the teaching come from, that according to the Pharisees, the actions of Y'shua and his disciples on the Sabbath were unlawful ?

LeClerc

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