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genghiscant

Evil spirits?

Does the Christian religion still believe that people can be possessed by evil spirits?
Paul

Re: Evil spirits?

genghiscant wrote:
Does the Christian religion still believe that people can be possessed by evil spirits?


Yes.
The Boyg

Re: Evil spirits?

genghiscant wrote:
Does the Christian religion still believe that people can be possessed by evil spirits?


Some do, some don't.

I think that you'll find a whole range of opinions about a whole range of subjects within the "Christian religion".

Jim

Re: Evil spirits?

Leaving aside some of the particularly vile Japanese 'whiskys'. yes, many Christians do believe in such things.
99.9% of us who do accept the possibility, though, also accept that there are other causes of the outward signs of possession; namely mental illness.
The difficulty is in determining which is which.
I'd check with a psychiatrist in the first instance.
bnabernard

Well I'm sure floo will contest them being evil as she has said in the past that her pet spirits are quite tame (citation needed   )

Ratio per capita evil spirits per human post flood at the time of Noah when there were just eight humans?
Ratio per capita evil spirits to humans today?

Agenda of spirits negotiated at time of Noah.

What and when was the time of torment refered to when the son of GOD cast them into pigs.

A legion in one man, phew. ratio per capita then then?


How much of scripture is directed at the spirits rather than at men?

How much of scripture is created by spirits ?

bernard (hug)
Farmer Geddon

Are you having a mini-rant about the Congo Gert?

(sorry Geng)!!
genghiscant

Quote:
Are you having a mini-rant about the congo Gert?

(sorry Geng)!!


Not so much rant, more incredulity.
bnabernard

Re: Evil spirits?

genghiscant wrote:
Does the Christian religion still believe that people can be possessed by evil spirits?


The christian still believe in possession and still carry out casting out of spirits, so be careful you might be in the vicinity when they cast one out cos they dont do anything with it, it's not like ghost busters where they stick it in a box, they just chuck over next door and walk off whistling 'I'm free''
Realy, would you when you have a caged lion set it free?

In the old days they would take the person who was possessed and burn them at the stake to try and bring an end to the spirit doing the possession, not sure that would wash today.

bernard (hug)
Powwow

In my opinion Christians can't be possessed, however they can be oppressed.
bnabernard

pow wow wrote:
In my opinion Christians can't be possessed, however they can be oppressed.


Yes, an expected answer from a 'christian' however 'christianity ' has been under the control of satan since they accepted that Saul/Paul had been chosen to teach them, thereafter they believed their spirit leadership greater than that of the spirit given to those specialy chosen and trained by the son of God, hence their choosing'under the guidence of the spirit' and their subsequent schisms'

Comatosed they have been blinded by angels of light and wolves in sheeps clothing.

bernard (hug)
Lexilogio

I've never seen anything to convince me of possession.
bnabernard

Lexilogio wrote:
I've never seen anything to convince me of possession.


Yes? do you know what normality is?
The world has been taken so far in the wrong direction that it does not know what the right direction is.

bernard (hug)
Powwow

bna,
No, Christianity is not under the control of Satan, you are.
There, are you not relieved to finally know the truth of it? LOL
bnabernard

pow wow wrote:
bna,
No, Christianity is not under the control of Satan, you are.
There, are you not relieved to finally know the truth of it? LOL


Sorry 'bout that pow wow, though I can't dissagree that Satan has a degree of control over me, I have to dissagree with you regards to christianity.
Mirror and image springs to mind and if you could remember your own image then you would recognise it in the faith that you constantly attack ie the mormons.
Christianity has a perchance for non conversion, they simply move arround changing the signs over the doors leaving business as usual behind the doors.

Today we are more advantaged than Noah, today Satan has to coral people to manage them on spirits per capita, however consider the difficulties faced by Noah and the likes of the man playing host to a legion of spirits.

Satan has his success and has built a people hostage barrier that he believes will gain him an advantage, bombs of destruction sanctioned by those same hostages as they in their comatosed state cowtow to his whims and fancies.

Satan is not a single entity working alone he is an organisation, organised in his own interest and survival and ready to use any ploy available to him to maintian his status quo, his defence, ''see how the people apreciate me and what I give them even when I give them in your name
they do not object, they deserve me not GOD''


Satan even convinces man he can bring to life dead planets, yet man cannot even give life to a living planet.
bernard (hug)
Leonard James

Lexilogio wrote:
I've never seen anything to convince me of possession.

I've never seen anything to convince me of evil spirits.
Lexilogio

bnabernard wrote:
Lexilogio wrote:
I've never seen anything to convince me of possession.


Yes? do you know what normality is?
The world has been taken so far in the wrong direction that it does not know what the right direction is.

bernard (hug)


Can I ask what I did to deserve that attack, Bernie?
I live a normal life. Just because I have never seen a possession does not make me abnormal. I did not deny they happen, they might. I just haven't seen anything to convince me of that.
Farmer Geddon

genghiscant wrote:
Quote:
Are you having a mini-rant about the Congo Gert?

(sorry Geng)!!


Not so much rant, more incredulity.


.. especially when it invades our shores too eh!
Farmer Geddon

Lexilogio wrote:
I've never seen anything to convince me of possession.


.. but apparently there are plenty out there who fervently believe in possession!!
Powwow

bna,
Of course I stand against the Mormon church and any Mormon in a position of leadership, it is a cult.
Well at least you are able to admit Satan has some control over you. That's a good first step. I pray you aren't in a psition to influence anyone as your ramblings are in complete opposition to God and His Word.
Leonard James

pow wow wrote:
bna,
Well at least you are able to admit Satan has some control over you. That's a good first step.

Into fantasy land!
bnabernard

Lexilogio wrote:
bnabernard wrote:
Lexilogio wrote:
I've never seen anything to convince me of possession.


Yes? do you know what normality is?
The world has been taken so far in the wrong direction that it does not know what the right direction is.

bernard (hug)


Can I ask what I did to deserve that attack, Bernie?
I live a normal life. Just because I have never seen a possession does not make me abnormal. I did not deny they happen, they might. I just haven't seen anything to convince me of that.


What makes you view it as an attack Lex, there are quite a few who are only to willing to admit to not knowing what normality is these days.
If it is an attack it is an attack on the mind control that satan offers where what 'is' is considered normal.
However in your/our defence when in history could you point to a time of normality, and, given the chance see normality how would it be recognised.

Many dream of a utopis, some picture utopia, how many have manufacturing industries in their utopia?

Now I'm sorry if you have taken it personal, just take it as encouragement to consider what GOD calls normality compared to what we are decieved into considering normality.

bernard (hug)
bnabernard

pow wow wrote:
bna,
Of course I stand against the Mormon church and any Mormon in a position of leadership, it is a cult.
Well at least you are able to admit Satan has some control over you. That's a good first step. I pray you aren't in a psition to influence anyone as your ramblings are in complete opposition to God and His Word.


Not much to suprise me in that answer pow wow, however let he who is without sin chuck the first rock, as they say,

bernard (hug)
gone

I don't believe evil spirits exist as entities!
genghiscant

Quote:
but apparently there are plenty out there who fervently believe in possession!!


It's just this sort of thing that makes me uncomfortable when I'm with religious people. I had no idea that some Christians still believed in evil spirits & possession. I knew that it sometimes happens with Africans because of the Victoria Climbie case, but to realise that the only difference between some African Christians & ours is that the African ones are prepared to do something about what they perceive as possession. I can't understand the irrationality of it all.

They believe in an entity that can't be detected in any way & even talk to it. They believe in the words of their holy book & will argue, & sometimes kill each other over its meaning.
I find it all very strange & more than a bit creepy.
Powwow

bna,
Let he who has tossed large parts of scripture into the garbage, not quote from the book when they're desperate to score a point.
bnabernard

pow wow wrote:
bna,
Let he who has tossed large parts of scripture into the garbage, not quote from the book when they're desperate to score a point.


Yup for once we are in agreement.
The councils who chose to follow a self appointed apostle in favour of apointed apostles.


bernard (hug)
Ketty

I believe evil exists, I believe, therefore, that some people act out of evil, maybe with deliberate evil intentions, from an evil heart, or because of mental disturbance . . . we are warned in the Bible of he who would be lord of this world, so I also believe that there is a spiritual dimension - spiritual warfare for hearts, minds and souls.  For Christians, imho, it's unwise to not be aware that such things exist.  This is one reason why we are warned about talking to the dead, etc, in the Bible.  I do know people who are involved in 'deliverance ministry', but rather than the theatrical Hollywood type exorcism, this involves more, praying for, praying with, and counselling.
Leonard James

Hi Ket,
Ketty wrote:
I believe evil exists, I believe, therefore, that some people act out of evil, maybe with deliberate evil intentions, from an evil heart, or because of mental disturbance . . . we are warned in the Bible of he who would be lord of this world, so I also believe that there is a spiritual dimension - spiritual warfare for hearts, minds and souls.  For Christians, imho, it's unwise to not be aware that such things exist.  This is one reason why we are warned about talking to the dead, etc, in the Bible.  I do know people who are involved in 'deliverance ministry', but rather than the theatrical Hollywood type exorcism, this involves more, praying for, praying with, and counselling.

You talk about evil existing as if it were some sort of entity in its own right, when in fact it's just a word to describe certain human behaviour.

Why can't you accept that some people just behave badly, and not excuse them by saying they are 'possessed' by evil?
bnabernard

Ketty wrote:
I believe evil exists, I believe, therefore, that some people act out of evil, maybe with deliberate evil intentions, from an evil heart, or because of mental disturbance . . . we are warned in the Bible of he who would be lord of this world, so I also believe that there is a spiritual dimension - spiritual warfare for hearts, minds and souls.  For Christians, imho, it's unwise to not be aware that such things exist.  This is one reason why we are warned about talking to the dead, etc, in the Bible.  I do know people who are involved in 'deliverance ministry', but rather than the theatrical Hollywood type exorcism, this involves more, praying for, praying with, and counselling.


I reckon we can take the word of the son of God that people can be inhabited by spirits, a legion is a fair old body full, we could of course cherry pick and say that was an exageration.
The casting out that resulted in a punch up, and the ones doing the casting out getting a seeing to.

Obvious possession one thing, however, what are the intricacies of deception, is it wear a lable saying look here I am, I'm a demon coo eee.

There's and agenda at work in the spirit world, and if it was the destruction of man then they had the chance, their agenda is survival under their terms, to bully the spiritss of God to take notice of them and their ways, in the spirit world to sway the vote in Satans favour.
Like all political agendas there are some babies to be kissed in the process.

Lets not expect a con artist to knock on the door and announce that he is our local con man and can he have our money now.


bernard (hug)
genghiscant

There's another thing, Satan. Do you believe it actually exists & influences humans?
I find it so hard to understand your mindset. You're all still in the stone age. You're tyrannised by your superstitions to the extent that it drives the way you live & die. And the worst part is that you want other people to be tyrannised in the same way you are. Madness.
Powwow

geng,
LOL anyone who is "tryannised" lol, by Satan or evil spirits is IGNORING scripture. The Bible is clear, we are not to fear Satan nor those that do his bidding.
genghiscant

Quote:
geng,
LOL anyone who is "tryannised" lol, by Satan or evil spirits is IGNORING scripture. The Bible is clear, we are not to fear Satan nor those that do his bidding.


Perhaps I didn't make it clear. I think you're tyrannised by your religion & therefore ultimately by yourselves for allowing it.
Powwow

Well perhaps someday I'll meet a fellow Christian, "tyrannised" by Christianity. LOL
bnabernard

pow wow wrote:
Well perhaps someday I'll meet a fellow Christian, "tyrannised" by Christianity. LOL


Meet floo, her ordeal.

bernard (hug)
Leonard James

pow wow wrote:
geng,
LOL anyone who is "tryannised" lol, by Satan or evil spirits is IGNORING scripture.

They are also ignoring the fact that logical thought dispenses with such daft ideas.
Ketty

bnabernard wrote:

Lets not expect a con artist to knock on the door and announce that he is our local con man and can he have our money now.


Aye Bernie, that's why we're told to exercise holy discernment and wisdom.  

Pretty packaging can disguise the tiniest drop of poison.  Start to poke a stick through the pretty packaging and that's when the poison can begin to show - anger, gossip, distraction, incoherence, confusion, 'protesting too much', manipulation, retaliation, . . .
Powwow

bna,
LOL, floo is NO Christian. However she is my favorite AGNOSTIC. Hello!!
bnabernard

Then lets possit a situation and chance to discernment.

The spirits mingled and were seperated from their mingling like iron from clay, and Noah and his family survived by the hand of God.

And God said never again to bring such action and sealed His promise in the sky.

However He set a time of judgement upon the earth and those misleading against Him and he speaks of a time of fire such as was known by Lot.

Now if there is a time of baptism of both fire and water, and one shall labour alongside his fellow 'and one be taken and the other remain how shall one be taken and the other remain.

Shall one be called up to heaven? or shall one be baptised with water and the other with fire.

It is the end of time for the faslse prophet for the misleading spirit and those who follow the ruler of this world, and for the misleading spirit is reserved the baptism of fire, and for those who's heart follows the teaching of the Father there is a baptism of water.

Who will step out in the rain alongside me?

bernard (hug)
cyberman

Leonard James wrote:
You talk about evil existing as if it were some sort of entity in its own right,


"As if..." is always a weak debating tactic. You mean, she has said something you agree with, but she has said it "as if" something you disagree with was the case, so will refute something she hasn't actually said.

Leonard, do you believe death exists? Do you believe humour exists? Do you believe nostalgia exists?

One can speak of abstract and intangible things existing, without talking "as if" they are entities.
Powwow

bna,
I have a problem with your notion on what baptism by fire is. Can you provide scriptural support?
Baptism by fire is the purification of the believer. Just as you put gold into a fire to burn off the impurities.
"Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built there upon, he shall receive a reward.
IF ANY MAN'S WORK SHALL BE BURNED, HE SHALL SUFFER LOSS: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE."   1 Corinthians 3:12-15
"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire."   Matthew 3:11
bnabernard

Discernment.
It is the spirits that mislead who fear fire, and those that follow the spirits will be purged, those who build up their kingdom in this world with no consideration.
When you see a cloud forming where a cloud would not form you will know that this is not of it's own accord.
Then will you stand beside me.?


bernard (hug)
Powwow

bna,
Scripture references please. That way we can go over the context, ya.
bnabernard

pow wow wrote:
bna,
Scripture references please. That way we can go over the context, ya.


Have you not received scripture and learned nothing of the end time.
Have you taught from scripture, have you not condemned according to scripture.
Do you not know the end of the false prophet.
Where is your scripture, where are the prophets that the son of God left among you.


bernard (hug)
Powwow

bna,
"Then said the prophet Jeremiah unto Hananiah the prophet, Hear now, Hananiah, The LORD hath NOT sent thee; but thou makest this people to trust a LIE."  Jer. 28:15

And I say, hear now, bna.
bnabernard

And I say to you pow wow that man will pour over scripture looking for a sign and none shall be given them but the sign of Jonah.

bernard (hug)
Powwow

Hear now, bna
"And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them."   1 Kings 18:40
bnabernard

Then know this, the prophet Elijah was the one commissioned to set fire to water.

bernard (hug)
Powwow

Hear now, bna,
"And say, Thus says the Lord God: Woe to the women who sews magic bands upon all wrists, and makes veils for the heads of persons of every stature, IN THE HUNT FOR SOULS! Will you hunt down souls belonging to my people and keep your own souls alive?   Ezekiel 13:28

Hear now, bna
Leonard James

cyberman wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
You talk about evil existing as if it were some sort of entity in its own right,


"As if..." is always a weak debating tactic. You mean, she has said something you agree with, but she has said it "as if" something you disagree with was the case, so will refute something she hasn't actually said.


Leonard, do you believe death exists? Do you believe humour exists? Do you believe nostalgia exists?

One can speak of abstract and intangible things existing, without talking "as if" they are entities.

Yes, I accept that. I get so used to hearing people referring to Satan as the embodiment of evil that I tend, wrongly, to assume that is what is meant when evil is mentioned.

Humour, nostalgia, love, evil etc., exist as emotions in the minds of people, but don't have an independant existence.

Death is another matter, in the sense that it is not just an emotion.
cyberman

Leonard James wrote:
cyberman wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
You talk about evil existing as if it were some sort of entity in its own right,


"As if..." is always a weak debating tactic. You mean, she has said something you agree with, but she has said it "as if" something you disagree with was the case, so will refute something she hasn't actually said.


Leonard, do you believe death exists? Do you believe humour exists? Do you believe nostalgia exists?

One can speak of abstract and intangible things existing, without talking "as if" they are entities.

Yes, I accept that. I get so used to hearing people referring to Satan as the embodiment of evil that I tend, wrongly, to assume that is what is meant when evil is mentioned.

Humour, nostalgia, love, evil etc., exist as emotions in the minds of people, but don't have an independant existence.

Death is another matter, in the sense that it is not just an emotion.


This is very interesting, genuinely. Do you think of evil as an emotion?
Leonard James

cyberman wrote:
This is very interesting, genuinely. Do you think of evil as an emotion?


In many instances, yes ... it can derive from hating the person who is the victim. Sometimes it is more basic in the sense that some people experience pleasure from inflicting mental/physical cruelty, but I consider that more as mental imbalance than emotional even though pleasure is an emotional response.

In the case of exorcism that involves evil behaviour, it is probably a sincere belief that they are doing good in 'freeing' the victim from possession by evil spirits.

I certainly don't believe that 'evil' is a detached force lurking about somewhere waiting to find a human to work through.
cyberman

Leonard James wrote:
cyberman wrote:
This is very interesting, genuinely. Do you think of evil as an emotion?


In many instances, yes ... it can derive from hating the person who is the victim.


Yes, I see what you mean. It is a function of human emotional behaviour, if not an emotion in itself.
genghiscant

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/82343481/
bnabernard

genghiscant wrote:
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/82343481/


From what I hear there are no demons in heaven, but then I here there ain't no women there either  

bernard (hug)
bnabernard

Chapter 15, XV
1. And He answered and said to me, and I heard His voice: 'Fear not, Enoch, thou righteous man and scribe of righteousness: approach hither and hear my voice. 2. And go, say to the Watchers of heaven, who have sent thee to intercede for them: "You should intercede" for men, and not men for you: 3. Wherefore have ye left the high, holy, and eternal heaven, and lain with women, and defiled yourselves with the daughters of men and taken to yourselves wives, and done like the children of earth, and begotten giants (as your) sons? 4. And though ye were holy, spiritual, living the eternal life, you have defiled yourselves with the blood of women, and have begotten (children) with the blood of flesh, and, as the children of men, have lusted after flesh and blood as those also do who die and perish. 5. Therefore have I given them wives also that they might impregnate them, and beget children by them, that thus nothing might be wanting to them on earth. 6. But you were formerly spiritual, living the eternal life, and immortal for all generations of the world. 7. And therefore I have not appointed wives for you; for as for the spiritual ones of the heaven, in heaven is their dwelling. 8. And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling. 9. Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men and from the holy Watchers is their beginning and primal origin; they shall be evil spirits on earth, and evil spirits shall they be called. 10. [As for the spirits of heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling.] 11. And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, but nevertheless hunger and thirst, and cause offences. 12. And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded from them.


Chapter 16, XVI
1. From the days of the slaughter and destruction and death of the giants, from the souls of whose flesh the spirits, having gone forth, shall destroy without incurring judgement -thus shall they destroy until the day of the consummation, the great judgement in which the age shall be consummated, over the Watchers and the godless, yea, shall be wholly consummated." 2. And now as to the watchers who have sent thee to intercede for them, who had been aforetime in heaven, (say to them): 3. "You have been in heaven, but all the mysteries had not yet been revealed to you, and you knew worthless ones, and these in the hardness of your hearts you have made known to the women, and through these mysteries women and men work much evil on earth." 4. Say to them therefore: " You have no peace."'



http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/pseudepigrapha/enoch.htm
JamesJah

1 Corinthians 8:1-3
Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up.

If anyone thinks he has acquired knowledge of something, he does not yet know [it] just as he ought to know [it].

But if anyone loves God, this one is known by him.


Writing did not start until after the flood, and that was hieroglyphs’ and Cuneiform.

The first writing to be understood generally were numbers and pictures of commodities.  

High BNA now here is an Appropriate peace of Cuneiform.>>



Jim

er....
I hesitate to ask this; but -
When do you think the flood happened?
JamesJah

Before the setting up of Babel the first city after the Great Flood.
gone

JamesJah wrote:
Before the setting up of Babel the first city after the Great Flood.


JamesJah

Then came Chinese and Egypt, Chinese writing and Egyptian started off the same, the Chinese writing became more complex where as the Egyptian became more simplified. Take a look at READING the PAST by J. T. Hooker
Jim

I think you'll find that proto-cuneiform was developed, in a very rudimentary form, around c3300BC.
The earliest extant heiroglyphics appeared approximately the same time. Both systems developed independantly.
bnabernard

I guess if someone comes across a stone pillar or some bricks with writing on them from pre flood times then we would be able to conclude some form of written comunication from them days.
However a heart of stone etc etc,
Just how much does apocraphia reflect what was being taught to the children on Noah and his descendents, I'm fairly certain that the flood would not cause amnesia and that Noah or his sons could be trusted to remember the cause of their situation and reflect to their sons and so forth.

bernard (hug)
JamesJah

Jim wrote:
I think you'll find that proto-cuneiform was developed, in a very rudimentary form, around c3300BC.
The earliest extant heiroglyphics appeared approximately the same time. Both systems developed independantly.


I do not see how as the flood came in 2348BC according to my time line chart and the first Chinese Dynasty Hiah started in 2290
Jim

James:
2348 BC?
Your timeline is wrong.
At that time, Unas, last king of Egypt's fifth Dynasty was king. Russell's Pyrimad - that of Khufu - was already two centuries old. Egypt had had a unified state for eight centuries at least.
We have dateable inscriptional evidence, and radiocarbon dates - which CANNOT be falsified - to confirm this.
See the dating results of the funerary furniture of Hetepheres, Great Royal Wife of Sneferu and mother of Khufu, for confirmation.
JamesJah

If you would like some carbon dates I'll fry some up for you.
Jim

Funny you should say that, James.
CarbonISED dates - dates which have been preserved through cooking - were found in the remains of the Dyn II mastaba tomb of Khasekhemwy, who died around  2687 BC!
Sebastian Toe

JamesJah wrote:
Jim wrote:
I think you'll find that proto-cuneiform was developed, in a very rudimentary form, around c3300BC.
The earliest extant heiroglyphics appeared approximately the same time. Both systems developed independantly.


I do not see how as the flood came in 2348BC according to my time line chart and the first Chinese Dynasty Hiah started in 2290



'The most ancient form of writing was cuneiform, wedge-shaped marks made on clay tablets. It was developed around 4000 B.C. by the Sumerians, a non-Semitic (non-Hebrew) people of unknown origins. A limestone tablet with cuneiform writing was found in the valley between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers (a region of present-day Iraq where the Sumerians lived) and has helped historians trace back the origins of writing. Cuneiform pictographs closely resemble Egyptian hieroglyphics, which was an extensive writing system using pictures developed by Egyptian priests around 3110 B.C. Both cuneiform and hieroglyphics were predecessors to the modern alphabet.'
http://www.enotes.com/history/q-a...hen-did-people-begin-write-286205

'It is generally agreed that true writing of language (not only numbers) was invented independently in at least two places: Mesopotamia (specifically, ancient Sumer) around 3200 BC '

'In 1999, Archaeology Magazine reported that the earliest Egyptian glyphs date back to 3400 BCE'

'In the Old World, true writing systems developed from neolithic writing in the Early Bronze Age (4th millennium BC). The Sumerian archaic cuneiform script and the Egyptian hieroglyphs are generally considered the earliest true writing systems, both emerging out of their ancestral proto-literate symbol systems from 3400–3200 BC with earliest coherent texts from about 2600 BC.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_writing

'As we have noted, the symbols on the oldest Sumerian clay tablets, the world's first writing, were pictures of concrete things such as a person, a sheep, a star, or a measure of grain. Some of these pictographs also represented ideas; for example, the picture of a foot was used to represent the idea of walking, and a picture of a mouth joined to that for water meant "to drink."

This early pictograph writing gave way to phonetic (or syllabic) writing when the scribes realized that a sign could represent a sound as well as an object or idea.

Thus, the personal name "Kuraka" could be written by combining the pictographs for mountain (pronounced kur), water (pronounced a), and mouth (pronounced ka). By 2800 B.C., the use of syllabic writing had reduced the number of signs from nearly two thousand to six hundred.'


http://www.emayzine.com/lectures/sumeria.htm
Jim

I agree with your references to both systems dates of origin, Seb - but I was quoting from the earliest extant examples of a series of symbols strung together to form ideas - in other words, writing. Pictographs as a means of accounting were used for centuries in both cultures, it seems, before the idea of writing as we know it gained hold. The earlies object I've handled was a 'palette' in fragmentary condition, dating to about 32oo bc, belonging to a king or overlord of Upper Egypt with the 'name'? Ah - although that symbol is simply the hieroglyph for 'moon', so it might be a designation rather than a name.
Either way, both your quotes and my receding knowledge of predynastic Egypt point to James' chronological speculations being rot.
Sebastian Toe

Jim wrote:
Either way, both your quotes and my receding knowledge of predynastic Egypt point to James' chronological speculations being rot.

Got it in one!
JamesJah

Any dates prier to the flood, have to be suspect, the Egyptians and Chinese, had the same start after the flood, how do we know? Because basic Chinese and basic Egyptian are the same. [An example is the word you said was used for mouth is still the same in Chinese then so is the word for mountain.]

There were Cuneiform characters that represented the same object but the picture gram was made with the cuneiform wedges.

As the Hebrew’s and the Chinese are the only ones with a written history their dates can be the only ones which can be considered some what reliable.

If you wish to hold to speculative dates of course that is your prerogative. [the first cuneiform in Iraq 3000 BC is a speculative date p17 of READING THE PAST introduced by J.T.Hooker]
Jim

er...
I think T.J hooker starring William Shatner is more accurate than your chronology, James.

You are wrong in your ancient histories, though.
We have well written inscriptions on stelae, temple, tomb and post Dyn 1v pyramid attesting to historical, political and cultural events preceding the aforementioned king Unas/Wenis.
The earliest connection yet proveable by arechaeology between Egypt and China is an ostracal inscription dating to the first Persian Dynasty (Dyn XVII - after the destruction of the second Temple in Jerusalem.)
JamesJah

You are now talking recent history when writing was quite prolific so what would you point be then?
Jim

Recent history?
James, As I stated above, the Old Kingdom of Egypt was well past its zenith when king Unas / Wenis died - around the time you postulate for the flood. Texts of historical, cultural, mathematical and religious subjects survive dating to that time - and several centuries BEFORE - your date for the flood.
There was no discontinuity with either epigraphy, accountancy, religious practices, building works, etc between at least fifty years before your putative date and one hundred years after it.
Your date is, therefore, wrong.
JamesJah

Which dat of MINE is wrong???????????///
Jim

James;
Earlier on this thread you posted as follows;

"I do not see how as the flood came in 2348BC according to my timeline chart..."

This date is wrong for the reasons I gave above; or, to summerise,
lack of discontinuity in the archaeological, epigraphal, radiocarbon dating, and dating using the Petrie method of pottery identification.
bnabernard

http://www.creationtips.com/flooddate.html

A thing is, were adams days counted from creation or from when he started to die.

bernard (hug)
Jim

Bna;
Thanks for the laugh - I needed that!
 
JamesJah

Jim wrote:
James;
Earlier on this thread you posted as follows;

"I do not see how as the flood came in 2348BC according to my timeline chart..."

This date is wrong for the reasons I gave above; or, to summerise,
lack of discontinuity in the archaeological, epigraphal, radiocarbon dating, and dating using the Petrie method of pottery identification.


Now this is real history>>>>

Luke 3:23-4:4
Furthermore, Jesus himself, when he commenced [his work], was about thirty years old, being the son, as the opinion was, of Joseph, [son] of Heli, [son] of Matthat, [son] of Levi, [son] of Melchi, [son] of Jannai, [son] of Joseph, [son] of Mattathias, [son] of Amos, [son] of Nahum, [son] of Esli, [son] of Nagga•i, [son] of Maath, [son] of Mattathias, [son] of Seme•in, [son] of Josech, [son] of Joda, [son] of Joanan, [son] of Rhesa, [son] of Zerubbabel, [son] of Shealtiel, [son] of Neri, [son] of Melchi, [son] of Addi, [son] of Cosam, [son] of Elmadam, [son] of Er, [son] of Jesus, [son] of Eliezer, [son] of Jorim, [son] of Matthat, [son] of Levi, [son] of Syme•on, [son] of Judas, [son] of Joseph, [son] of Jonam, [son] of Eliakim, [son] of Melea, [son] of Menna, [son] of Mattatha, [son] of Nathan, [son] of David, [son] of Jesse, [son] of Obed, [son] of Boaz, [son] of Salmon, [son] of Nahshon, [son] of Amminadab, [son] of Arni, [son] of Hezron, [son] of Perez, [son] of Judah, [son] of Jacob, [son] of Isaac, [son] of Abraham, [son] of Terah, [son] of Nahor, [son] of Serug, [son] of Reu, [son] of Peleg, [son] of Eber, [son] of Shelah, [son] of Cainan, [son] of Arpachshad, [son] of Shem, [son] of Noah, [son] of Lamech, [son] of Methuselah, [son] of Enoch, [son] of Jared, [son] of Mahalaleel, [son] of Cainan, [son] of Enosh, [son] of Seth, [son] of Adam, [son] of God.
Jim

I'm perfectly aware of Luke's Gospel, thanks.
I am also perfectly aware of the uninterrupted period of RECORDED, substantiated, dateable archaeological EVIDENCE from c 2600 (and earlier) - 2300 (and later) BC.
There is no evidence for a layer of destruction, abandonned Temples, los or indeed discontinuity of literacy, internal exodus, mass extinction, inundation of extant subterranean monuments, reduction or dissolution of the mud-brick monuments which existed.
Indeed, James, the only natural disaster which seems to have overwhelmed Egypt at the time - or near the time - you suggest, was not flood, but a series of droughts at the end of the sixth dynasty. This resulted in a period of famine and instability which we call the first Intermediate Period, out of which, only gradually, was a unified state re-established in the tenth and eleventh dynasties.
Google Ankhtify
for examples and chronology of the unrest.
bnabernard

Jim wrote:
I'm perfectly aware of Luke's Gospel, thanks.
I am also perfectly aware of the uninterrupted period of RECORDED, substantiated, dateable archaeological EVIDENCE from c 2600 (and earlier) - 2300 (and later) BC.
There is no evidence for a layer of destruction, abandonned Temples, los or indeed discontinuity of literacy, internal exodus, mass extinction, inundation of extant subterranean monuments, reduction or dissolution of the mud-brick monuments which existed.
Indeed, James, the only natural disaster which seems to have overwhelmed Egypt at the time - or near the time - you suggest, was not flood, but a series of droughts at the end of the sixth dynasty. This resulted in a period of famine and instability which we call the first Intermediate Period, out of which, only gradually, was a unified state re-established in the tenth and eleventh dynasties.
Google Ankhtify
for examples and chronology of the unrest.


I have to wonder,    I m accused of throwing the NT in the dustbin by 'christians' who throw the OT in the dustbin.
I got to say, as the days go by it's not that hard to see the difference between the wheat and the tarres.


bernard (hug)
JamesJah

The Chinese trace their history back to their Great ancestor Noah, the picture grams for large boat is eight, mouth, and large chest.

All these names have dates to go with them,

China
FOH of YAO first dynasty 2300
SHIN Nogn 1998 BC
Wang 11 discovered magnet
SHANG dynasty Chinese appear in history.
TCHOU,VOU VANG, VEN VANG, FONG, TCHOU VONG54, MO VANG50, [  KONG- VANG  ]  YE-YANG, HIAO-VANG,
Y-VANG, LIO-VANMG, YEOU-VANG, SUEN-VANG,
PING-VAN, HOUANG-VANG, TCHOUANC-VANG,
[LI-VANG], HOEI-VANG, [SIANG-VANG], KING-VANG 1st,
TING-VANG, KIEN-VANG,LING-VANG, KING-VANG11,
KING-VANG 111, [YUEN-VANG], TCING-TING-VANG,
KAO-VANG, [KAO-VANG], GUCHIE-VANG,
NGAN-VANG, LIE-VANG, HIEN-VANG, [CHIN- VAN]
NAGN-VANG 11, TCHOU-KUM,  CHI-HOANG-TI first Emperor, [EUL-TCHI], KAO-SOU, HOEI-TI, VEN-TI, [KING-TI], VOU-TI 53, TCHAO-TI 23,  SUEN-TI 25,
TUEN-TI 17, TCHIN-TI, HIAO-NGAI-TI   [ BC-AD]
RANG-MANG,  ] HOMER-VANG [
QUANG-VOU-TI, MING-TI 18,
bnabernard

Looks like you been out for a chinese James  

bernard (hug)
JamesJah

Jo san Bernie your up early joi gin.

Good mornimg Bernie you are up early see you again.
Jim

bna.
I have absolutely no problems accepting the word of God, scripture, in its' God-breathed entirity.
I have extreme problems with those who try to use scripture to prove history; a purpose for which it was never intended, nor given to us to use as a history book for eternity.
bnabernard

Jim wrote:
bna.
I have absolutely no problems accepting the word of God, scripture, in its' God-breathed entirity.
I have extreme problems with those who try to use scripture to prove history; a purpose for which it was never intended, nor given to us to use as a history book for eternity.


You mean the stuff that agrees with what you want to think rather than what is impossible in your eyes?
Ie, you don't doubt mans technology but you do doubt Gods technology.


bernard (hug)
Jim

you may quote Chinese Emperors to your heart's content. I am woefully ignorant of the subject.
Egyptology is my discipline, and I feel confident in assuring yoyu of the UNINTERRUPTED list of kings of dyn VVI - the timeline, with over a century either way, to allow for miscalculation, at which your postulated date for the flood arrived. If you wish to play at making lists, well, here's mine.

Dyn V
Userkaf  - 2498-2491
Sahure  - 2491-2477
Neferirkare - 2477-2467
Shepseskare - 2467-2460
Neferefre - 2460-2453
Niuserre Ini - 2453-2422
Menkhuhor Kaiu - 2422-2414
Djedkare Isesi - 2414-2375
Unas/Wenis - 2375-2345.
Dyn VI
Teti - 2345-2333
Pepy I Merenre - 2332-2283
Merenre Nemtyemsaf - 2283-2278
Pepy II Neferkare - 2278-2184.

Are there any of these dated reigns with which you disagree? If so, please give inscriptional or doctrinal reasons for doing so - and reputable, University accreditted papers backing up your assertion.
Thanks.
JamesJah

The Chinese and Egyptians lived side by side at their start, and this is the point that I am trying to make.

How do we know that to be the case, that the Chinese and Egyptians were such close bed fellows?

It is the start of both their righting technique, they started in the same way, with the same letters or figures, in fact both had the habit of putting names in cartouches,

I have not seen any where in Egyptian hieroglyphs any mention of who their first ancestor was, as is the case with the Chinese.

By checking the history of writing it is possible to trace all earths tribes back to Babylon, more evidence that one can rely on the bibles teaching rather than mans speculative teaching and higher criticism of the word of The Almighty God
Jim

OH dear;
Who's been digging weird sites, then?
James - there is no - I repeat, NO  - connection between Egyptian and Chinese writing. Besides, there were at least six Chinese writing languages between 3000BC and 2ooAD, and at least seven languages in total.
Besides, with the somewhat curious exception of proto-cuneiform, most writing systems, including our own, were adaptations or developments of pictographs.
Where is your reasoning that Egypt and China shared a connection? Egypt herself did not begin full scale trade links with Asia until the early Middle Kingdom.

And as for creation myths; *I don't know - no one does - which were the first stories in Egypt. Dependant on the site you visited, and the era in which you visited it, there were at least seven creation myths ( although Nicholas Reeves, a prominant modern Egyptoligist has posited a possible three other candidates.)
Only in Hellenistic times, when the Greek Ptolemaic rulers 'standardised' official worship systems, in a vain effort to equate them with Greek theology, was a single Re-Isis-Osiris-Set-Horus creation story adopted. However, in the south (Upper Egypt _) and in the Sudan, the older stories persisted.
JamesJah

Can I suggest Jim that instead of chasing around unfounded information sites you take a look at the history writing by reputable writers?
[Reading the Past Ancient writings from cuneiform to the Alphabet, Introduced by J.T, hooker]]

One of the books that I have on the subject make lining up the progress writing, by showing which pictures grams turned to what letters and so on. There are a number of publications sold at the British museum on the subject, were it is also possible to see some of the evidence first hand even which tribe the Egyptians started of at after the flood.

Many Church goers have been fooled by the wild talk of the promoters of evolution, as if it is fact and not fiction. When in reality every tribe on earth today can be traced back to eight souls which came out of the ARK.

Romans 3:3, 4
What, then, [is the case]? If some did not express faith, will their lack of faith perhaps make the faithfulness of God without effect? Never may that happen! But let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, even as it is written: That you might be proved righteous in your words and might win when you are being judged.
Jim

James;
I do not trawl the sites. I simply maintain the interest in Egyptology which I studied at uni; I also remain a member of the Egypt Exploration society,  the oldest and most respected body of its kind in the UK - and the one which sponsored Flinders Petrie - the chap who rubbished the pyramidiot Russell's gibberish.
I maintain contacts with Egyptologists in the field, and in the universities of London, Liverpool and Oxford.
I also retain the notes I used when studying Heiroglyphs and heiratic, and the socio-religious development of philosophy from Middle to Late periods.
I agree there are a lot of wierd sites out there, unfortunately, many spawned by so-called Bible experts who try to make God fit into their idea of what He should be.
It won't wash.
Now, please provide me with reputable refutation of the chronological data I provided above.
Or are you going to stick your finger in your ear and say "la-la-la I'm not listening?"
JamesJah

Which one of Noah's sons did the Egyptians spring from did they show you that at UNI?

You have no mention of Mizraim XI Dynisty date not knowen or the XII date not knowen.
Jim

Ah!
Diversionary tactic alert!
So, no reputable dates to refute my sources, then? I didn't think so.
You see, James, some of your co-religionists tried - and failed - to prove their particular chronology by attempting to shift the dated events of other nations around them. That was on another forum - R&E - and I haven't heard of them since.
BYW, names in the Bible are not the same as those used by their native cultures; e.g Nebuchadnezzar should be Nebuchadrezzar - if you were a Babylonian, that is; Pharoah Neco should really be Nekhau, if you were Egyptian, Shishak should really be Sheshonq.
Probably those who wrote the original manuscripts were not conversant with Egyptian spelling or writing. A minor point, I know, but one which one should bear in mind when trying to set down history.

But, back to my question;
Can you find any reputable, verifiable, sources to contradict my king list/chronology
bnabernard

Is that a don't know?

bernard (hug)
JamesJah

Your point being what exactly Jim?
Jim

My point being, James, that the putative date you give for the flood is wrong.


Simples.
JamesJah

That is the date given by the Time chart of Biblical history, which I understand has to be reasonably accurate. On the front, it has Jesus on a cross so it is not very authentic but I understand the date to be only slightly awry to the authentic ones.

The publishers keep changing it from the original one in an effort to pleas as many as possible that visit the British museum, were I purchased my copy.
Jim

Can I suggest that you stop looking at the first part of Genesis as an accurate chronology?
It was never meant for that purpose, and, only in the last two centuries have people tried to shoehorn history into their concept of what it should be, rather than looking at the reality of the archaeology, epigraphy and other data which point out the glaring shortcomings in their efforts?
Whether the British Museum publication is correct or not, I can't tell you - I don't know the authors or the source material with which they worked.
I can only assure you that your date is wrong.
Isf you wish mwe to go into inscriptional or radiocarbon dating I will - but ponder this;
Mud brick is, by its' nature, mud - and when exposed to water it disintegrates. Just ask any Central/South American whose adobe house was washed away in a downpour.
The rules were just the same five thousand years ago, when the 'mastaba' tombs of the first and second dynasties of Egyptian kings were built at Men;nefer (Memphis) and Abydos.
TThose structures, though worn away by sand and erosion, are still very much in evidence (I've been on an excavation there). There is no sign of water erosion or, indeed water penetration. The last of these buildings was constructed more than three centuries BEFORE your postulated date for the flood.
Just like those monuments, the date won't wash.
JamesJah

Me I do not date carbons nor do I know when the sky fell down, but it certainly it did.

As for the publication I used it is quite bonyfied I have bought nearly a hundred of them over time, they were originally done by some monks I believe, today they had a period with dino's in now there were some wild dates that got removed quite quickly, the latest one I purchased is nice and large and helps verify who did what when and at the same time as who. The book quite good really if you do not take it as one hundred percent accurate.

I understand there are two absolute dates to work off of and no one has changed them yet as far as I know.[537 was one] I do believe I have seen some ranting over this date but that is all you get from some.
Jim

Let me be clear; I do not doubt the existance of a flood.
I simply doubt those wgo try to calculate, using only the Bible, a putative date.
Such a system is flawed, as scripture was never designed to be a comparitive chronology of the Ancient near East. I have looked at sites claiming the possible dates for Abraham, Joseph and Moses in Egypt; good grief, there are even some of the more nutty sites suggesting that Abraham was actually a Pharoah, and thsat the Egyptian Akhenaten was actually Joseph!
What I am trying to say is, be very careful of the provenance of such sites; they can be problematic at best, and totally nuts at worst!
bnabernard

Well if nothing else comes of it at least I might get ofshore for me fishing

http://www.worldwideflood.com/interact/canoe/canoe.htm

bernard  

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