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Lexilogio

If you could "get" religion...

I'm just in one of those curious moods.....

If you could believe in God, on a temporary basis (say, 3 hours?) by eating a type of chocolate bar - would you?

And do you think it would change your life?
IvyOwl

Re: If you could "get" religion...

If you could believe in God, on a temporary basis

As you've posted this in the Atheist chat section and not the Christian one I have to ask which god? There's quite a lot of them about you know!

I'd do anything for a chocolate bar even if I had to believe in Thor for a few hours ... at least I'd know it's only temporary.

Are you sure the mood you're in isn't down to Loki? What chocolate bars have you been eating?

IO
Dave B

Re: If you could "get" religion...

Lexilogio wrote:
I'm just in one of those curious moods.....

If you could believe in God, on a temporary basis (say, 3 hours?) by eating a type of chocolate bar - would you?

And do you think it would change your life?
Bit like Ivy I think.

Do we get to chose our deity?

I think I would have a go - chocky bar not needed, unless that was the "trigger" for the experience. I have a sort of perception of what faith or belief in a deity might be like - I have had quite fundamentally moving experiences in my life (though none of them lasted long) and would be very interested to know if "the real thing" compared to these.

Not exactly an experiment, but putting myself in another's place has been a thing for me most of my life - this would be an extension of that.
IvyOwl

~xx~ Jesus' Lady... ~xx~ wrote:
Is there a point to the exercise?

Love Lynne.xx  


As much point as your one about being challenged to live  as an atheist. It's just a way of getting people talking and thinking.  

Does there have to be a point other than that?

IO
Lexilogio

IvyOwl wrote:
~xx~ Jesus' Lady... ~xx~ wrote:
Is there a point to the exercise?

Love Lynne.xx  


As much point as your one about being challenged to live  as an atheist. It's just a way of getting people talking and thinking.  

Does there have to be a point other than that?

IO


Oh don't worry - Lynne feels a deep seated need to challenge everything I say.  
Lexilogio

Re: If you could "get" religion...

IvyOwl wrote:
If you could believe in God, on a temporary basis

As you've posted this in the Atheist chat section and not the Christian one I have to ask which god? There's quite a lot of them about you know!

I'd do anything for a chocolate bar even if I had to believe in Thor for a few hours ... at least I'd know it's only temporary.

Are you sure the mood you're in isn't down to Loki? What chocolate bars have you been eating?

IO


Well, since I posed the question - from my perspective there is only one God. Shall we describe God as the Abrahamic God?

And no - the mood isn't down to Loki. It's simply a rebellion at having spent 10 hours today trying to sort out work someone else more senior should have done a couple of weeks ago.
IvyOwl

Re: If you could "get" religion...

Quote:
And no - the mood isn't down to Loki. It's simply a rebellion at having spent 10 hours today trying to sort out work someone else more senior should have done a couple of weeks ago.


Ah but the 'someone more seniors' incompetence may have been down to Loki!

Only joking ... I don't believe in him either well only as a concept.

OK then I'll go with the Abrahmic God. mmmmm well I think my main feeling on discovering him/her to be real would be wonderment at the human imagination. We can invent a God get enough people to believe in it and hey presto it's real!

Sorry that's not the answer you wanted ... I must try harder .... I really am not belittling your  faith in any way. It's just I find it so hard to imagine. No offence meant. Tell you what I'll sleep on it and ponder it in more depth.

Sorry you  had such a bad day ... I hope sorting it out gave a feeling of achievement.

IO
Lexilogio

Strangely enough Lynne, or should I say Venus, I'm only too well aware that such a thing would be an impossibility.

This wasn't about what was possible, but about whether being able to believe - something many atheists say they find impossible - would change things.
Leonard James

Morning Lexi,
Lexilogio wrote:
This wasn't about what was possible, but about whether being able to believe - something many atheists say they find impossible - would change things.

It's not just that we say it, my dear, it's a fact. Just as you would say "I don't believe in fairies" is a fact, not just something you say. OK?
Lexilogio

Leonard James wrote:
Morning Lexi,
Lexilogio wrote:
This wasn't about what was possible, but about whether being able to believe - something many atheists say they find impossible - would change things.

It's not just that we say it, my dear, it's a fact. Just as you would say "I don't believe in fairies" is a fact, not just something you say. OK?




Don't worry Len - you can tell me I was right when you give me a welcoming hug in Heaven.
Leonard James

Lexilogio wrote:
Don't worry Len - you can tell me I was right when you give me a welcoming hug in Heaven.

What makes you think I'm worried?  
IvyOwl

Hi Lynne,

Quote:
You see, being an atheist is a state of mind and heart and not a way of life.

I had hoped someone might just get the point that knowing God is also a state of mind and heart.



Well obviously being an atheist isn't a way of life .. whoever said it was? Neither is it a particular state of mind or heart.  'Knowing God' (as opposed to just believing in) is certainly a state of mind I won't argue with that.

However as far as I'm concerned it is a not a desirable state of mind ... bordering as it does on the seriously delusional. Fair enough some people are happy, you included, and whilst they are not harming others that's fair enough ... each to their own and all that.


Quote:
 So not something we just choose to believe but rather an experience which occurs through belief. An experience which shows God to be real. So we cannot choose to live as atheist.
But we can choose to walk away and ignore what we truly know.



Belief in God sometimes comes about because of things that have happened in a persons life. Things that lead them to believe that there is an outside power at work and if there is already a predisposition to believe in God then that's what they'll believe it was. (However there are other explainations)  It could well change their lives for the better and again that's fair enough as long as they realise that what they belive is just that, a belief and not a 'universal truth' however much they may feel it's a good thing in their own lives.

Quote:
Faith in God is not merely belief.  Faith in God is about reality of knowing the 'being' God.


Yes I appreciate that you think belief/faith amounts to a reality and if that's what you want  all very nice for you but it isn't for anyone else outside of your head.

Quote:
So how can something real ever be temporary?


Very easily .... just think about that statement a bit more deeply.   Those things that we call 'real' are in a constant state of change and flux.

I've no doubt that Lexi feels that once having experienced her faith it's something that we couldn't/wouldn't want to walk away from. I took her playful suggestion of a 'magic' choc bar  as a metaphor for a conversion experience. I saw it as an invitation to let down barriers of credulity.

Maybe she was wondering if any of us envy believers in any way? I have heard non-belivers say as much.  

So then Lexi, I've slept on it and all I can say is that although I don't discount the idea of a one mind universal force .... even prepared to believe that if there is one then we are all part of it. The Universe is incomprehensivley vast, we know very little about it. Somehow we as bits of it have become sentient and have popped up to take a look and have a wonder. Maybe that 'somehow' is an inevitability of the whole process of which we are such a minute part?

Those notions I can deal with. But that the god of the stone age desert dwellers is it? No I cannot go along with that at all. Just because this god is supposed to have said 'I am the one true god' it doesn't make it true!

So I shall respectfully decline your offer although I know it was well meant.

IO
gone

Does anyone understand the above post?
Dave B

Rose-Mary wrote:
Does anyone understand the above post?
Didn't bother to read it. I never do if Lynne's posts are over four lines long or contain bold characters or multiple smileys.
Dave B

It's Full Moon in two days, just thought that might be interesting.
Lexilogio

Rose-Mary wrote:
Does anyone understand the above post?


Lynne decided to join another site I posted on, and pretended not to be herself, but someone else.

And then getting very angry when I dared to point out who she was...

All I did was use the name she is generally called on all other sites.
northernstar

Lynne, I just find it impossible to believe, it would be nice to have that faith but sorry, none of it makes  any sense whatsoever.
Lexilogio

   
northernstar

*
I cannot believe that Jesus Christ really did all those things and that there is a God. Even if there was one, I wouldn't want to be a believer.*

At least I'd be honest, Lynne.  
Pukon_the_Treen

Quote:
You choose clearly not to.

How do you choose not to believe something?  You either believe it or you don't, based on whether or notr you think it is real.  Choice has nothing to do with it.
Dave B

I have just suffered a deja vu moment reading the above . . .  
Pukon_the_Treen

Lynne,

Quote:
I gave NS the choice. He chose not to believe even if it is true about God.


YOU gave NS the choice? How is that choice yours to give to anyone?   “He chose not to believe even if it is true” doesn't make any sense; if he felt it was true then he would believe it, if he felt it wasn't true then he would not believe it.  You can't believe in something that you don't think is true, or disbelieve something that you do think is true.

Quote:
It plays a bigger part in belief than you think.
Look at the answers in my post, the one NS answered.
And ask yourself which you would choose.

Your post contained some scripture from Luke; the parable of the sower.  The gist of this parable is that some people will believe the message, others won't, for a variety of reasons. Does the parable say that the people can choose to believe the word or not?  Can we chose to be by the wayside, on the rock, among the thorns or on the good ground?  If we are not on the good ground then can we choose for the seed to grow?

The parable is just an elaborate way of saying what everyone knows; some people will believe the 'word of God' because the evidence and experience from their lives have predisposed them to do so. Others will not, because the evidence and experience from their lives have predisposed them not to do so.  There is no choice involved; if we don't think it's true then we won't believe it.
Leonard James

Pukon_the_Treen wrote:
The parable is just an elaborate way of saying what everyone knows; some people will believe the 'word of God' because the evidence and experience from their lives have predisposed them to do so. Others will not, because the evidence and experience from their lives have predisposed them not to do so.  There is no choice involved; if we don't think it's true then we won't believe it.

Excellent, Puke, except that I would substitute can't for won't in the last sentence. Unfortunately some people are unable or unwilling to recognise the truth of the fact that belief is not a choice!
northernstar

Last word on the matter, yes, I still would not believe even if if the Christian deity was proven to be real, still can't see the sense in it.
Dave B

northernstar wrote:
Last word on the matter, yes, I still would not believe even if if the Christian deity was proven to be real, still can't see the sense in it.
Hmm.

I cannot but help think that you have discovered a philosophical conundrum there, NS. If Big G actually existed and was proven to do so would "belief", as usually used in this context to be the acceptance that something non-provable exists, apply?

Where's our tame philosophy student? Oi, Puke!
Samuel Vimes

It would appear to be a denialist position: refusing to accept that something exists despite there being proof that it does.
Pukon_the_Treen

northernstar,

Quote:
I still would not believe even if if the Christian deity was proven to be real, still can't see the sense in it.

I don't understand that position. If something seems to you to be real then you will believe it; that's what 'belief' and 'real' mean. I don't see how you could simultaneous think that God was real, but not believe He existed. You might think He was real but refuse to worship Him, because you don't think He deserves it, but you can't disbelieve something you think is real.
Pukon_the_Treen

Lynne,

Quote:
In all cases the person understood the word. But the ground is still the ground. Each persons heart is what it is because of the way you make it.


So you think that you can choose whether you are the wayside, the rock, among the thorns or the good ground; in effect choose whether the extent to which you accept the reality of an idea?  Here are three ideas:

At the battle of Jericho, the Israelites followed Gods instructions and the walls fell.
This universe is only one of an oogleplex of other universes.
Killing people is wrong; there is no situation where it is morally acceptable to kill someone.

When you read them, for each one you will think “yes I think that's true” or "no I don't think that's true”.  Now for each one try to make yourself believe the opposite; that what you think to be true is actually untrue.  I can't do it, so I don't see what choice has to do with belief.

Quote:
The point is I asked him:


But what if you were to think in this manner:

*I cannot believe that Jesus Christ really did all those things and that there is a God. Then again, if it is true, I would want to know so I can be part of it.*


and also

On the other hand, if you think like this:
*
I cannot believe that Jesus Christ really did all those things and that there is a God. Even if there was one, I wouldn't want to be a believer.*

He says that "Even if there was a God, he wouldn't want to be a believer.
This is about the way he thinks now as an atheist.
Which one would you choose Puke. This gives the atheist the chance to tell the truth. Would you choose not to believe even if there is a God?


I don't understand northernstar's position. If it seemed to me that there was a God then I would believe He existed; I would have no choice.  However, I may not believe He deserved my worship. I'm a contrary rebellious person and I don't like bullies and tyrants. It depends upon the nature of the experience and evidence that led me to suppose God was real, but it is possible that even though I believed God existed I would still not become a Christian, refusing the “you're with us or against us” threat that is offered and refusing to worship God out of some ideological gesture of rebellion.

In short I might reject the worship of God and reject His right to rule us, but if I felt He was real then I would have no choice but to believe He existed.
northernstar

I'm like you, Puke, I would refuse to worship this tyrant god, I wouldn't owe any allegiance as I consider myself a free man.
Dave B

Well past the full moon now I see.
Pukon_the_Treen

Lynne,

Quote:
What you decide to do with the truth, decides which you are.


'Do' with the truth?  That's a separate issue.  If we come to the conclusion that something is 'the truth' then we have no choice but to believe it; that's the point.

Quote:
As you can see, we do not all think according to what others think.
My answers are not that which you thought they would be.


I honestly had no idea what your answers would be; your answers are irrelevant to the point I am making.

The three ideas could have been, “Paris is the capital of France, the moon is made of cream cheese and dew is formed by water droplets condensing out of the air”, the point is that if evidence and experience have led you to think that something is true, then you will believe it; you cannot think something is true but not believe it.  You cannot choose what you think to be true; that is a result of the evidence and experience you have received.

Quote:
You make up your mind without knowing him and without reading the bible.


And what do you think I have made up my mind on?  I don't think God exists, but I admit that I may be wrong; my knowledge is finite.  As far as I know, I do not know God, but I have read the bible. I must admit I didn't like it very much.

Quote:
You already have the freedom to choose whether you worship God.


No I don't.  I do not have the freedom to worship God, because I do not have the freedom to believe God exists. My beliefs are dictated by what seems to me to be real; I cannot worship with any meaningful sincerity something that I do not think is real.

Quote:
But given the truth of the bible and mankind, you are in no position to judge him.


The truth of the bible is not 'given' it is an assumption that you make.  You presumably believe that you are right to make that assumption, because experience and evidence have brought you to that position, but I cannot share your experience and evidence; I am not you, and I must work with my own experience and evidence.

As to my right to judge God, that is irrelevant as I do not think God is real.  To me that is like telling me I have no 'right' to judge the conduct of Oberon in 'A Midsummer Night's Dream'. I can do it as a hypothetical exercise, exploring the character as he appears in the narrative, but I would not be judging a real entity, because I don't think the story is real.
Pukon_the_Treen

Lynne,

Quote:
Why? How is it a separate issue when we are referring to God?


I thought we were talking about how you come to decide what you think the truth is, not about what you do with the truth once you have decided what it is.  That seems to me to be a separate discussion.

Quote:
You gave only two possible answers? Did you actually know what you wrote?


Yes, I do. You are right; you can look at that list of ideas and simply decide that you don't know one way or the other as you did with the second idea listed.

However, if when you read some ideas and decide that you can or can't accept their truth (as you did with the first and third ideas), you cannot then force yourself disbelieve things that you think are true, or believe things that you think are untrue. Do you agree with that point?

Quote:
The issue is " Do you have the choice to choose what you believe?" You do because you decide whether to believe in God or not.


You are simply saying "this is so because it is so".  How do I choose what I beleive?  If I do not think that God is true, how do I then choose to believe in Him?

Quote:
One time you admitted you had not read the bible.


Did I? I suppose I may have skipped some of the more tedious genealogies and laws in the Old Testament, but I have definitely read all the New Testament.

Quote:
If you claim to have read the bible then you prove you had the choice to believe.


No.  There is no choice to believe. If you read something that seems to you to be implausible and incorrect then you cannot simply 'will' yourself into believing that it is true.  You try it with the any other mythology than the Christian one; you will read it, and say to yourself “Well, I don't think that's very likely, I don't think it's true” just as I did with your scripture.  You cannot then re-read it and study it, forcing yourself to believe it; you either believe it or you don't.  Why is this such a difficult idea for you to accept?

Quote:
shows you have not understood what it means to believe in God according to the bible.


Maybe.  However, I know what belief is according to me; it's when you examine a claim and reach the conclusion that the claim is true.  You cannot force yourself to disbelieve in something that you think is true; that is a conclusion you reach regardless of willpower.

Quote:
What experience and what evidence have you used form the bible to determine your choice of belief?


What 'choice of belief'?  I don't think belief is a choice.

I read the bible and found it unconvincing as literal factual document.  It seemed to me to be a collection of Jewish myths, legends, laws and histories surrounding their relationship with their tribal god Yahweh, capped off with some interesting moral and spiritual teachings attributed to a person called Jesus. As with all myths, legends and religious writings, it seemed to me to obviously be of human authorship, the miracles and supernatural aspects I considered to be of human invention, to add weight to the stories and convey more subtle messages.  I did not think it was literally true, I did not believe in the existence of the God character, or in the divinity of the Jesus character.

My investigation of the subject goes on of course, and my opinion on this may change if I gain access to more information or experience, but at the moment that is how it stands, and I cannot 'force' myself to believe otherwise.  I have no choice whether to believe or not, that is down to the information and experience I receive.

Quote:
So why do you discuss him on forums?


Why not?  It's an interesting subject.
Dave B

Does you forehead hurt, Puke?
Pukon_the_Treen

There are persuasive lines of argument you can take to argue against the position that I am adopting here, but Lynne is just choosing repetition of assertions; “you can choose what you believe because you can choose what you believe”. It's very boring.
Dave B

Quote:
It's very boring.
Yes.
Pukon_the_Treen

Lynne,

Quote:
Seems suggestion seems to work with you Puke, looking at your reaction to posts by DaveB.
Do you think for yourself or do always let others tell you what to think?


I think for myself. Where is there evidence of others telling me what to think?

Quote:
Reading your post I can only say that at my points were clear from previous posts.


Your points don't seem very clear at all to me I'm afraid.
Quote:

NS, saying he would not follow God if he knew he existed.


Yes, though I didn't understand northernstar at first, it turned out that he meant that he does not believe God exists, but also that he would not worship God, even if he did believed He existed. I expect that this is a position shared by many atheists.  It's not the same as refusing to believe in God even if you knew He existed, I think that is impossible.

Quote:
You said you would believe but not worship or follow him.


No I didn't.  I said that I do not actually believe God is real, but even if I did, it is possible that I would refuse to worship Him, depending upon the nature of the experience and evidence that led me to suppose God was real.
Quote:

But in all truth if God was real then so is the rest of it, like the judgement day.


Why?

Anyway, even if judgement day is real, why should that force me to worship God? Does He deserve my worship just because He has the power to judge and punish me? Power doesn't necessarily make you good and worthy of praise.
Quote:

Everything we do or say is based on our choices and our decisions.


Certainly a lot of things we say or do are based on choices and decisions, but I don't think this is true for belief; we cannot choose what we think is true and real, that is not something we can will ourselves into believing.  You try it; try to force yourself to believe something that you currently think is untrue.

Quote:
There is evidence of this on the thread with DaveB's replies.
You allowed what he said to influence you.


Do you have any evidence for this claim?  As far as I can see I have repeated the same argument over and over again, regardless of Dave's contributions.

Quote:
So the points can be easily seen by how we process information and how we accommodate our replies. I personally can see nothing more coming out of this other than the fact, you made the choice not to believe.


Again you repeat the assertion without any argument to back it up. This is rubbish.

Quote:
How that choice was influenced could possibly be the way you allow people rather than evidence to affect you, as this thread shows.
DaveB was just trying to be rude and you decided to join him.

Yet my argument has remained unchanged throughout, so how has it been influenced by others?  I don't need others to tell me that your arguments tend to be boring inarticulate and repetitive; I've told you this before, several times.

Quote:
please do not say, you do not make the choice. Because it is clear you allow others to influence your decisions. So you do make the choice.


Even if this feeble and silly attempt to discredit my line of reasoning were true, how does it follow that I am making a choice? Surely if you are so weak willed that you allow others decide things for you, then by definition you have relinquishing your choice?
Pukon_the_Treen

Lynne,

Quote:
You have proved you allow what others think to affect your decision and your choices ... you are easily influenced by other people into letting them tell you what to think.


You have provided no evidence to support this claim.

Quote:
But I have no wish to engage further with you on this subject and topic.


Yes, this is how almost all discussions with you end; you claiming that you will not read any replies, while continuing to repeat your unsupported assertions without defending them as though they remain unchallenged. You usually introduce some irrelevant self-righteous accusation as well, to attempt to derail the discussion onto another area.

Never mind, my expectations were not high.
Pukon_the_Treen

Quote:
You are showing I am right. The evidence is within the posts … You show that you are easily influenced by others and make decisions according to the current trend of the peoples thoughts on the forum ... I am sure about what I saw and what I know.


The evidence is clearly that I have used the same argument repeatedly, regardless of Dave's contribution. If you have any evidence that others are telling me what to think then please direct me to it.  You are frankly full of crap.
Pukon_the_Treen

Lynne,

Quote:
The truth is... you have taken an argument made by an atheist and tried to make it your own.


Most of the argument is that of John Locke, and he was a Christian.  What do you mean by “tried to make it my own”?
Quote:

You have no understanding of Christian truth.


Maybe.  How is Christian truth different from any other kind of truth?  Anyway, considering you seem to imagine that only you understand what Christian truth is, it's hardly surprising that I don't understand it.

Quote:
Neither do you have an evidence to substantiate or maintain your claims.


I'm not sure that evidence is a useful thing to demand in this argument.  I don't see how the kinds of things we are arguing about can be proven or disproven by empirical evidence. What we should be trying to do is construct solid lines of reasonable argument to support our positions.

For example, I am arguing that you cannot decide what you think is true and real, as belief is not something that can be affected by willpower.  If it were, I would be able to decide to believe anything I liked; I could believe that I am going to Valhalla when I die, that my family members are all going to live forever, that the Irish built the pyramids, that Herne the Hunter and Merlin are real people, or even that the Christian God exists. I cannot make myself believe any of these things, however much I might want to. No one can make themselves believe something that they don't think is true.

That is the reasoning that maintains and substantiates my line of argument.  You can refute my argument by providing an example where people can decide to believe something that doesn't seem to them to be true, or you can construct a similar line of reasoning to support your own argument.  Empirical evidence may play a part in this, but all you are doing so far is making an unsupported assertion, over and over again. That's getting us nowhere.
Quote:

You choose not to believe due to the fact you (and this is shown by the fact ) are unable to give any real substantial evidence for not believing according to the truth in the bible.


I don't understand what you are asking for here. Do you want me to provide evidence that I don't believe the bible, or reasons why I find the bible implausible?  I can't think of evidence that I don't believe the bible; surely it's enough for me to simply say that I don't believe it and tell you the reasons why I found it implausible, without demanding some kind of evidence?  In any case, how will that influence the discussion about whether or not you can decide what you believe?
Quote:

You choose not to believe


Assertion without any supporting argument.
Quote:

it is clear from DaveB getting involved you allow yourself to be influenced on things, by the opinions of others.


Yet my reasoning and line of argument has remained entirely unaltered throughout.  Tediously so.  How has Dave told me what to think; I'll ask you again for some kind of evidence to support this accusation.

Quote:
This is how you adopted your stance. LD was the first to make this statement about not being able to believe.

No, he wasn't.

Quote:
I frankly have no time to waste with people who use arguments without sound proof they are unable to believe.


If you find fault with the line of my reasoning then address it. How on earth would I provide 'proof that I am unable to believe'?  What kind of proof are you asking for here?

Quote:
When it clearly shows they do not believe from choice given the evidence from the bible. My point is clear when I said," it is your mind and how you choose to believe or disbelieve the things you learn."


Your 'point' is an assertion with out any reasoning to back it up.  When you successfully choose to believe something that you currently do not think is true, purely through force of will, then I will accept that it is possible.
Leonard James

Lynne, my dear,

To settle the whole disagreement just answer this question honestly.

Can you choose to believe something which you don't at present consider true, or conversely choose not to believe something which at the moment is true for you?

I hope you will refrain from saying you don't understand the question or launching into an evasive essay peppered with biblical quotes, but will show your goodwill by answering either 'yes' or 'no'.

If you don't, it will demonstrate to us all that you are afraid to answer honestly.
IvyOwl

Leonard James wrote:
Lynne, my dear,

To settle the whole disagreement just answer this question honestly.

Can you choose to believe something which you don't at present consider true, or conversely choose not to believe something which at the moment is true for you?

I hope you will refrain from saying you don't understand the question or launching into an evasive essay peppered with biblical quotes, but will show your goodwill by answering either 'yes' or 'no'.

If you don't, it will demonstrate to us all that you are afraid to answer honestly.



Oh dear Leonard your hope was in vain. Still it was worth a try.  

IO
Leonard James

~x~Judders Lady...~x~ wrote:
We are talking about God... We are talking about religion.

No I'm not, I'm talking about the ability to choose to believe. Once again you attempt to squirm out of the question.
Quote:
Did you have the choice when you chose to believe in God?

Only in the same sense that I had the choice to believe that my name was Leonard. My parents and everybody else told me things were true, and being a trusting child I believed them.
Quote:
Did you have the choice when you chose not to believe in God?

No, my reason came to the conclusion that God was a make-believe character, and I had no choice but to accept it.
Quote:
So what was different that made you once believe for years that suddenly caused you to disbelieve? You had the choice.

No I didn't. I could no more choose to continue to believe in God than I could choose to start believing in fairies.
Quote:
Nothing changed but you if you believe God does not exist.
And if you once believed he did and did so for years. Then how come he suddenly disappeared?

It is quite obvious what happened. My ability to reason matured and showed the fable up for what it was.
Quote:
You admitted it yourself. You thought God should have done something to save your faith. You also thought that you found things in the world bad that caused you not to have faith because of his apparent lack of action. But where in your belief did the truth about Satan really figure and him being responsible for that evil?

Don't be foolish, Lynne. I prayed to God, not Satan.
Quote:
If you decided not to believe in God, then it wasn't the evil in the world.
It was your refusing to believe the answer God had already given you.
SATAN.

Oh my, so now you are telling me what God said to me, are you? Is there no end to your self-aggrandisement? I already told you that NO answer was forthcoming, and I'm sure that if God had existed he would have told me it was Satan trying to fool me.
Quote:
The difference between you and I, is  I know people make the choice.

No Lynne, the difference between you and I is that I can see things as they are ... you can only see them through the fog of Bible quotes that you have buried your brain in.
Quote:
Whatever the reason it has nothing to do with NOT BEING ABLE TO BELIEVE it is simply a choice they do not want to believe.

Rubbish!
Quote:
And NS is proof of that as well as  PTT, who even if he knew hell and the lake of fire were real with God, would still not worship God the only true way by Spirit and Truth.

Totally irrelevant.
Quote:
So that proves that they choose.

It proves that they can choose what they would do if God were real, that's all. But they don't believe he is.
Quote:
I think we have it straight now.

What we have straight is that you completely refuse to answer my original question ... and it is because you daren't. If you did you would have to admit that you are wrong about choosing to believe things against your reasoning power.

I'll make it even simpler for you. Can you choose to believe that God is just a character in a mythical story, and not real at all?
Love Leonard.xx  
Leonard James

IvyOwl wrote:
Oh dear Leonard your hope was in vain. Still it was worth a try.  

IO

Yes, IO, I admit I'm a sucker for a challenge! Most people have the common sense not to reply to Lynne after the first few exchanges, but sometimes my desire to respond overcomes my common sense!
Dave B

Leonard James wrote:
IvyOwl wrote:
Oh dear Leonard your hope was in vain. Still it was worth a try.  

IO

Yes, IO, I admit I'm a sucker for a challenge! Most people have the common sense not to reply to Lynne after the first few exchanges, but sometimes my desire to respond overcomes my common sense!
I know the feeling, it is only by effectively ignoring Lynne's existence that I can keep the lid on the steam!

But even then one has to lift that lid a little when her ignorance, arrogance and self-righteous prattle get to much.
Leonard James

Dave B wrote:
I know the feeling, it is only by effectively ignoring Lynne's existence that I can keep the lid on the steam!

But even then one has to lift that lid a little when her ignorance, arrogance and self-righteous prattle get to much.

The curious thing is, Dave, that I think buried beneath all that self-righteous cant and superior air Lynne is probably a nice person. I'm sure it is only on this subject that she is totally unable to see reason.
Pukon_the_Treen

Lynne,

Quote:
Whatever the reason it has nothing to do with NOT BEING ABLE TO BELIEVE it is simply a choice they do not want to believe. And NS is proof of that as well as  PTT, who even if he knew hell and the lake of fire were real with God, would still not worship God the only true way by Spirit and Truth.

So that proves that they choose.


It does nothing of the kind!  I can't see why you are still refusing to understand this concept; it's not difficult.  Northernstar and myself do not believe in God.  This is not a choice, it is simply that we have read the claims and theories concerning God and are unconvinced by them.

I have also read Lovelock's Gaia theory and been unconvinced by that, and von Däniken's ideas about aliens in ancient cultures.  Choice is not an issue here; I cannot choose to think something is real if evidence and experience from my life lead me to think that it is not, and I cannot choose to believe that something is true if I do not think it is real.  This is why, despite all your waffle and tedious repetition of your unsupported assertion, you have been unable to make yourself believe something that you do not currently think is true, or vice versa.

If evidence and experience from my life led me to think that God was real, then I would have no choice but to believe that He existed, but I could still choose not to worship Him; that is where choice comes in.  Not the choice not to believe, but the choice not to worship.
northernstar

It does nothing of the kind!  I can't see why you are still refusing to understand this concept; it's not difficult.  Northernstar and myself do not believe in God.  This is not a choice, it is simply that we have read the claims and theories concerning God and are unconvinced by them.

You are right, Puke, nothing I've read will ever convince me there is a God, either of love or of hate, as I've said before I find it impossible if not to say outlandish.
northernstar

Who's rattled your cage, Macca?!    
Dave B

northernstar wrote:
Who's rattled your cage, Macca?!    
Not it's cage, NS, it was it's pram that was jostled I think.
Lexilogio

It is not acceptable to post personal insults outside of the Bear Pit.

Do it again and I will  delete the post.
Lexilogio

Macca wrote:
Lexilogio wrote:
It is not acceptable to post personal insults outside of the Bear Pit.

Do it again and I will  delete the post.


Bitch is not an insult it is just you. If you would like to look it up it is a female dog. lol


I am well aware of both the literal and colloquial meanings of the term.

It was an insult, and clearly meant as an insult. And the next time you post an insult to another poster outside the bear pit I will delete the post.

If you don't like it, the door is over there.
Lexilogio

Action is taken where insults are seen. It's only a couple of weeks ago since I removed an insult about you, Lynne.

If you consider a post to be offensive, then I suggest you let me know. I don't read every post on here.
Lexilogio

I repeat - if you consider something offensive, then say so.

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