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Judders Lady...

Is God happy to let us get on with it?

northernstar wrote:
The world can get along perfectly without the need for a "God", yes, we get the arguments that it's all going pear shaped but if God does exist, he/it seems to be happy enough to let us get on with it.


Did he have a choice?

Now that is a good question... Are you going to tackle it?

Love Lynne...xxx Smilie_PDT
Leonard James

Re: Is God happy to let us get on with it?

Judders Lady... wrote:
northernstar wrote:
The world can get along perfectly without the need for a "God", yes, we get the arguments that it's all going pear shaped but if God does exist, he/it seems to be happy enough to let us get on with it.


Did he have a choice?

Now that is a good question... Are you going to tackle it?

Love Lynne...xxx Smilie_PDT

Lynne, my dear, what on earth is the use in asking a non-believer questions about your God? You are the one in contact, so it is much more sensible to ask him!
Judders Lady...

Re: Is God happy to let us get on with it?

Leonard James wrote:
Judders Lady... wrote:
northernstar wrote:
The world can get along perfectly without the need for a "God", yes, we get the arguments that it's all going pear shaped but if God does exist, he/it seems to be happy enough to let us get on with it.


Did he have a choice?

Now that is a good question... Are you going to tackle it?

Love Lynne...xxx Smilie_PDT

Lynne, my dear, what on earth is the use in asking a non-believer questions about your God? You are the one in contact, so it is much more sensible to ask him!


Morning Leonard, :)

You missed the point....(hugs)

When Adam fell and men have their own choices who are not believers., does he have the choice or do we?

So my point was God is letting us get on with it, because he has already told us he will take action in his own time and it is up to manking to choose for themselves.

Love Lynne.xxx Smilie_PDT
Leonard James

Re: Is God happy to let us get on with it?

Judders Lady... wrote:
So my point was God is letting us get on with it, because he has already told us he will take action in his own time and it is up to manking to choose for themselves.

I'd better not tell you my opinion of a father who lets his kids 'get on with' killing, maiming and torturing one another. It might make even you blush!  :evil:
Judders Lady...

Re: Is God happy to let us get on with it?

Leonard James wrote:
Judders Lady... wrote:
So my point was God is letting us get on with it, because he has already told us he will take action in his own time and it is up to manking to choose for themselves.

I'd better not tell you my opinion of a father who lets his kids 'get on with' killing, maiming and torturing one another. It might make even you blush!  :evil:


So why don't you torture, kill and maime others?
The truth is that they don't listen to God, as you don't.
But it does not cause you to do these things.
So you cannot blame God for what his Kids do. You are the proof they
had a choice.

You rascal, would you really say things that would make me blush!

Love Lynne.xx Smilie_PDT  :twisted:  
Leonard James

Re: Is God happy to let us get on with it?

Judders Lady... wrote:
So you cannot blame God for what his Kids do.

No, but I can blame ANY father who stands by and lets his kids ill-treat one another without lifting a finger to stop them.

And so would anybody whose mind is not completely enslaved to protecting such a monster. :evil:
Judders Lady...

Re: Is God happy to let us get on with it?

Leonard James wrote:
Judders Lady... wrote:
So you cannot blame God for what his Kids do.

No, but I can blame ANY father who stands by and lets his kids ill-treat one another without lifting a finger to stop them.

And so would anybody whose mind is not completely enslaved to protecting such a monster. :evil:


But God did lift a finger.... He did nore than life a finger but he allowed us the choice to know him and live properly or reject him and go our own way.
You cannot blame God for our choice.

Love Lynne.xx Smilie_PDT
Pukon_the_Treen

Quote:
He did nore than life a finger but he allowed us the choice to know him and live properly or reject him and go our own way.


So His 'help' was to tell us to do as He says or suffer the consequences?

I can understand the free will argument; it makes sense to me that if God wanted to give us total freedom (as befits a creator setting his creation free into the world) then He cannot intervene even to protect us from harm; that is the price of our autonomy and I accept that.  However, it seems to me that once He has given us this freedom it is immoral for Him to then play the despotic judge, punishing disobedience.  It's one or the other; total freedom from both compulsion and protection, or divine governance; He can't have both.
Leonard James

Re: Is God happy to let us get on with it?

Judders Lady... wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
Judders Lady... wrote:
So you cannot blame God for what his Kids do.

No, but I can blame ANY father who stands by and lets his kids ill-treat one another without lifting a finger to stop them.

And so would anybody whose mind is not completely enslaved to protecting such a monster. :evil:


But God did lift a finger.... He did nore than life a finger but he allowed us the choice to know him and live properly or reject him and go our own way.
You cannot blame God for our choice.

Love Lynne.xx Smilie_PDT

I'm not talking about what he reputedly did! I'm talking about here and now, with millions of people suffering and dying from the action or inaction of the rest of us. Any father that can stand by and 'let his children get on with it' is not worthy of the name of father.  He is no more than an indifferent  despot.

Of course, he isn't real, so it doesn't really merit arguing about, but I am just pointing out how ridiculous your beliefs are.  Smilie_PDT
Judders Lady...

Pukon_the_Treen wrote:
Quote:
He did nore than life a finger but he allowed us the choice to know him and live properly or reject him and go our own way.


So His 'help' was to tell us to do as He says or suffer the consequences?

I can understand the free will argument; it makes sense to me that if God wanted to give us total freedom (as befits a creator setting his creation free into the world) then He cannot intervene even to protect us from harm; that is the price of our autonomy and I accept that.  However, it seems to me that once He has given us this freedom it is immoral for Him to then play the despotic judge, punishing disobedience.  It's one or the other; total freedom from both compulsion and protection, or divine governance; He can't have both.


You think that being God means he can go against the system already in place. You may be a judge and your son commits murder.
He is a good Son but he has done wrong. As a judge can you not do your job and sentence him because you are his father?

We know that laws are in place not to protect us from those who won't break them but to protect us from the few that will break them. Because the few can do terrible things. Not everyone is good Puke. But should the laws cease to exist what kind of evil and depravity would mankind sink to?
The few,still do it now, but without laws; nothing to make them answerable they would do it more often and more openly, so  causing good people to take matters into their own hands and do things they normally wouldn't. Even in society today, we hear people such as yourself who would glad string a paedophile up and not feel guilt or remorse at doing so.  

If God had not told us what not to do, then you would be right about him being a despotic judge. But Adam was told the consequence of his actions. Today, a judge would only excuse the mentally incapable from being punished under the law.
A mentally retarded child who takes 'openly' a pack of sweets off a shop shelf and eats them. Is not able to steal or commit the crime knowingly. So no Judge or even police officer would arrest or charge.
Because they would not be accountable. But for someone who understood. The person is accountable, because they knew the penalty before hand. No different for Adam, the Israelites and Moses. They had a choice and they made it.
Obey or don't obey but we knew the consequences and so did they when they entered into agreement.

But I will ask you a question.

If you were a Father would you impose anything upon your son that would harm him? Would you impose anything upon your son to save him from real harm?

Well why do you not see this in the actions of God and you?

Do you have different rules for yourself and how God would behave?
God wants the best for us.

Love Lynne.x
:)
Judders Lady...

Re: Is God happy to let us get on with it?

Leonard James wrote:

I'm not talking about what he reputedly did! I'm talking about here and now, with millions of people suffering and dying from the action or inaction of the rest of us. Any father that can stand by and 'let his children get on with it' is not worthy of the name of father.  He is no more than an indifferent  despot.

Of course, he isn't real, so it doesn't really merit arguing about, but I am just pointing out how ridiculous your beliefs are.  Smilie_PDT


Morning, (((Leonard))), Smilie_PDT


That sentence sums it all up. FROM ACTION OR INACTION OF THE REST OF US.
 These others suffer as a direct result of what our ancestors or the people living today, are doing and not doing.
Tell me Leonard, is there enough resources to feed the world?
Can we make enough resources to feed the world?
Would you life still be as good without the wine, the internet and a place in the sun to live? Would you and could you live without them?

Let us not be naive about this. Those in power say exactly what will happen to third world countries. There priority to is preserve the country they run. Sometimes it is very much a you or them situation.

You cannot blame God for the state of the worlds economy.
There is no one but man and Satan to blame. Whilst men attack God for it, he is hardly going to remove it, is he?  His will achieved to separate man from God.

Love Lynne.xxx


Smilie_PDT [/u]
Leonard James

Lynne dear,

Don't think that you can confuse me by a load of words leading on a different tack. You can't.

A father that stands by and does nothing while his children kill, maim and torture one another is not worthy of the name.

Furthermore, a God who creates imperfect beings and then punishes them for being imperfect is a capricious twit.

Quote:
Would you life still be as good without the wine, the internet and a place in the sun to live? Would you and could you live without them?

Willingly, if everybody else did the same ...to do so unilaterally is totally useless. I live a very simple life, contribute monthly to UNICEF, and have willed everything I possess to them. That is doing more to help than the majority of Christians are prepared to do.

I'm sorry, Lynne, you can shut your eyes to the facts in order to preserve your faith, but they won't go away. Your 'God' doesn't exist, and I think that deep down you know it, but are just unable to face it. :(
northernstar

Lynne, there is no such being as Satan, then again God doesn't exist, either.
Pukon_the_Treen

Lynne,

Quote:
You think that being God means he can go against the system already in place.


Well yes, of course He can, He's God, He can do whatever He likes.

Quote:
We know that laws are in place not to protect us from those who won't break them but to protect us from the few that will break them. Because the few can do terrible things. Not everyone is good Puke. But should the laws cease to exist what kind of evil and depravity would mankind sink to?


We, humanity have invented laws in order to govern ourselves; they were not imposed on us by another parent entity - they are our laws.  This is fine; if God does exist He has clearly left us to rule ourselves, respecting our free will and autonomy and I appreciate and respect that position.  However, having left us to our freedom as He apparently has done, it is wrong for Him to turn up a the end as a judge; that is not respecting our autonomy; that is despotism.

Quote:
we hear people such as yourself who would glad string a paedophile up and not feel guilt or remorse at doing so.


What the hell are you talking about; when have I ever said I would gladly string up a paedophile?

Quote:
If God had not told us what not to do, then you would be right about him being a despotic judge. But Adam was told the consequence of his actions.


That is a myth, belonging only to a small Middle Eastern tribe. The myth only became popular and widespread once one of the tribe's offshoot cults received the backing of the Roman Empire.  Assuming for the sake of argument that the myth is true, we still have God as a despot; “obey or suffer my punishment”.  What kind of 'free will' is that?  I agree that part of free will is the freedom to face the consequences of your actions, but when those consequences take the form of punishment meted out to you by an entity who is trying to bully, compel or coerce you into obedience that is plainly not free will.
Quote:

If you were a Father would you impose anything upon your son that would harm him? Would you impose anything upon your son to save him from real harm?


When my son was a child I would do my best to protect him from harm, and I would offer guidance and instruction as to how I think he should live his life.  Once he was an autonomous adult I would respect his freedom and right of self-governance; he would at that point be an equal to me, not a minor in need of a level of control, so I would no longer interfere in his life in any way unless asked.

Does God respect our free will and our right as autonomous adults to be left alone, free from coercion, instruction and punishment, or does He still deal out instruction and punishment as a father does to a child?  What are you to God; a child or an adult?
Quote:

Well why do you not see this in the actions of God and you?


To be honest, I have never seen or felt the presence of God in the least, and His existence to me seem highly improbable, so I assume if He does exist He is quite rightly leaving me the hell alone to govern myself.  If He then pops up at the end of my life and starts laying down the law about how I should have acted and trying to hand our judgement and punishment then he can bugger off; that isn't His right, and if He cannot see that then His morality is inferior to mine (mind you we knew that from His conduct in the Old Testament anyway).
ceramic

northernstar wrote:
Lynne, there is no such being as Satan, then again God doesn't exist, either.


1. God is the source of all life.
2. The devil does exist.
Leonard James

ceramic wrote:
1. God is the source of all life.

If you want to call the source of the universe/life God, fine, but don't kid yourself that you or anybody else knows anything about such a power, because you don't.
Quote:
2. The devil does exist.

There is no evidence to corroborate that claim.
ceramic

Pukon_the_Treen wrote:
Assuming for the sake of argument that the myth is true, we still have God as a despot; “obey or suffer my punishment”.  What kind of 'free will' is that?  I agree that part of free will is the freedom to face the consequences of your actions, but when those consequences take the form of punishment meted out to you by an entity who is trying to bully, compel or coerce you into obedience that is plainly not free will.


That is "assuming" He (the Father) is a God of punishment - which is what you are asserting.

You (society in general) have been taught enough that God is a "legalistic" entity (Latin theology and agnostic defense) and that is etched into our thoughts as rational and that is the only way that "this entity" can be viewed ... challenge that perspective.

What do you see?



Pukon_the_Treen wrote:
Does God respect our free will and our right as autonomous adults to be left alone, free from coercion, instruction and punishment, or does He still deal out instruction and punishment as a father does to a child?  What are you to God; a child or an adult?


It is from the very mouth of The Son of God (Christ) that we are given the answer to that thought and it is in the Parable of the Prodigal Son. The Orthodox view of God the Father is very different to the one that Western (Latin) Christianity has wrongly taught and our theologians explain that the Father of the Prodigal Son is "God".

In this parable, the prodigal lives a life of "sin". When he eventually realises that this lifestyle has left him homeless and empty he returns home only to be SUPRISED by the REAL reaction of his father and not his own PRE-CONCEIVED IDEA of what that reaction would be (see, he assumed he would be punished and decided to return home to be a lowly servant in the home of his father out of his own shame) ....

What was the reaction of THE FATHER according to THIS parable (that was given straight from the mouth of Christ himself)?
ceramic

Leonard James wrote:

ceramic wrote:
1. God is the source of all life.

If you want to call the source of the universe/life God, fine, but don't kid yourself that you or anybody else knows anything about such a power, because you don't.


My original point said:
God IS the source of ALL life.

Thank you for reminding me that it should have said:
God IS the source of ALL life and no one knows His essence. We only know His created energies.

Leonard James wrote:

ceramic wrote:

2. The devil does exist.

There is no evidence to corroborate that claim.


There is plenty of evidence to corroborate that claim.
Judders Lady...

Hi Leonard, Smilie_PDT

Leonard James wrote:
Lynne dear,

Don't think that you can confuse me by a load of words leading on a different tack. You can't.

A father that stands by and does nothing while his children kill, maim and torture one another is not worthy of the name.

Furthermore, a God who creates imperfect beings and then punishes them for being imperfect is a capricious twit.


That's why I didn't try to confuse you and didn;t go off on a different track so not using loads of words but telling it as it is.
God created us perfect but free will must be the right to choose so make an informed decision. The thing about Adam and Eve is they made an informed decision. The woman clearly shows she knows not to the eat the fruit because they will die. Satan, has been using the same wiles on people since the dawn of time.
Me. personally, I believe God.  He has given us life and the means to maintain it. Satan tries to steal anything God gives us.
But as Job points out, if God give us something good we are thankful but when anything bad comes along we blame him.
Satan clearly the accuser and instigator who lost his seat of power of Christians.
Quote:



Quote:
Would you life still be as good without the wine, the internet and a place in the sun to live? Would you and could you live without them?

Willingly, if everybody else did the same ...


Does anyone trust anyone else enough to do that?
I know you thought I would come back with something to do with going first. The truth is we will always have the poor because everyone is too afraid to be without.

Quote:

to do so unilaterally is totally useless.


So unless everyone is of the same mind it cannot happen.
Hence why we have the poor.
Quote:

I live a very simple life, contribute monthly to UNICEF, and have willed everything I possess to them. That is doing more to help than the majority of Christians are prepared to do.


I give monthly, also to NSPCC and the Red Cross plus other charities like water for life.
I give what I can to others too, whether it is buying someone a weeks groceries, paying bills or rent/mortgage to ensure their home is safe and their children fed. Not from the wealth of the World but the Lord God who gives me the ability and the knowledge and love to use what he has given me for the welfare of others.
Quote:

I'm sorry, Lynne, you can shut your eyes to the facts in order to preserve your faith, but they won't go away. Your 'God' doesn't exist, and I think that deep down you know it, but are just unable to face it. :(


My eyes are firmly open to the truth that there is one God and that Satan uses everything evil to drive wedges between us and God.
Who knows what tomorrow will bring but God. The good things are all Gods creation and the bad things that happen are all the doing of the devil.

As, a child, I could clearly see the bad things came from Satan and the Good things came from God. Sshhhh don't let everyone know ....But Satan and his  main ace is always to do the bad things and let God take the blame for it... :wink:  


Love Lynne.xxx :)
Judders Lady...

northernstar wrote:
Lynne, there is no such being as Satan, then again God doesn't exist, either.


Hi Steve,

God and Satan, both exist.
I have had personal experience of both.
But there is only one true God of love and that is YHWH.
Jesus Christ is the Son of God and I see all he has fulfilled and those things in the bible still to come.

Love Lynne.xxx Smilie_PDT
Leonard James

ceramic wrote:
There is plenty of evidence to corroborate that claim.

Really? Do tell me what it is?
Judders Lady...

Pukon_the_Treen wrote:
Lynne,

Quote:
You think that being God means he can go against the system already in place.


Well yes, of course He can, He's God, He can do whatever He likes.


The bible tells us that God is Just and Righteous.
The righteous demands of the law had to be met so Christ has to suffer on the cross. We see that RIGHT AND WRONG cannot be changed or interchanged. That God is who he is because he can do all he says he can. The end from the beginning is told in the bible.
If you knew the bible you would understand why God can never change. And why his words never fail to do as they should.
Light and darkness cannot exist in the same place.
Though God knows both. In the end all evil and darkness will be gone for ever.
Quote:

Quote:
We know that laws are in place not to protect us from those who won't break them but to protect us from the few that will break them. Because the few can do terrible things. Not everyone is good Puke. But should the laws cease to exist what kind of evil and depravity would mankind sink to?


We, humanity have invented laws in order to govern ourselves; they were not imposed on us by another parent entity - they are our laws.  This is fine; if God does exist He has clearly left us to rule ourselves, respecting our free will and autonomy and I appreciate and respect that position.  However, having left us to our freedom as He apparently has done, it is wrong for Him to turn up a the end as a judge; that is not respecting our autonomy; that is despotism.

If Gods rule was despotism - by his complete power, then Adam would never have been able to make the choice to do wrong.
As it went outside Gods complete power and authority. What is clear is that God is sovereign ruler and we have the will to choose.
This very thread on this forum and your ability to write what you want about God, shows no despotism is possible.
Right and Wrong, Life and death, God or the devil, Evil or Good.
Jesus Christ =Love and God or Anti-Christ=Evil and Death.
You get to choose? despotism gives no choices...
Quote:

Quote:
we hear people such as yourself who would glad string a paedophile up and not feel guilt or remorse at doing so.


What the hell are you talking about; when have I ever said I would gladly string up a peadophile?


Make them answerable by taking them out of society?
How else would you describe it, seeing as hanging is unlawful?
Don't play tactics I really do not appreciate it.
Quote:

Quote:
If God had not told us what not to do, then you would be right about him being a despotic judge. But Adam was told the consequence of his actions.


That is a myth, belonging only to a small Middle Eastern tribe. The myth only became popular and widespread once one of the tribe's offshoot cults received the backing of the Roman Empire.  Assuming for the sake of argument that the myth is true, we still have God as a despot; “obey or suffer my punishment”.  What kind of 'free will' is that?  I agree that part of free will is the freedom to face the consequences of your actions, but when those consequences take the form of punishment meted out to you by an entity who is trying to bully, compel or coerce you into obedience that is plainly not free will.


Well if Adam was a myth how come God is still speaking to us now?
Well go on! How did Jesus Christ do all he did. No myths allowed because if it could be proved and was a myth then people would have known and the truth would have died out because it would have been false.
We are all for laws to protect us and others. What is so different between ours and those imposed by God. Neither do us any harm.
The truth is that you don't want to accept the punishment for you breaking the law.
Now that is true of every criminal. They want to break the law but not take the punishment. But if you know the consequences before you break the law, be it, Gods or mans, then you cannot cry injustice.
Justice shows you get what you expected and so deserved.
Quote:
Quote:

If you were a Father would you impose anything upon your son that would harm him? Would you impose anything upon your son to save him from real harm?


When my son was a child I would do my best to protect him from harm, and I would offer guidance and instruction as to how I think he should live his life.  Once he was an autonomous adult I would respect his freedom and right of self-governance; he would at that point be an equal to me, not a minor in need of a level of control, so I would no longer interfere in his life in any way unless asked.


So if your son committed rape or became a serial child- killer you would  think that is okay? You would not expect him to be punished in anyway by yourself or the law. You would still love him and still treat him as you did before? You would not interfere by reporting him if you found out before the authorities?

Quote:

Does God respect our free will and our right as autonomous adults to be left alone, free from coercion, instruction and punishment, or does He still deal out instruction and punishment as a father does to a child?  What are you to God; a child or an adult?


Both, a child by the Truth and Spirit being like God and an adult being female and of child bearing age.
But like all parents, right and wrong does not change because of our age or status. We do not stop being a child because we make our own decisions. God made us, our parents are always our parents and care no matter how old we get.
Let us not ignore the obvious to make an argument which cannot be sustained by wearing blinkers when looking at the situation.
Quote:


Quote:

Well why do you not see this in the actions of God and you?


To be honest, I have never seen or felt the presence of God in the least, and His existence to me seem highly improbable, so I assume if He does exist He is quite rightly leaving me the hell alone to govern myself.  If He then pops up at the end of my life and starts laying down the law about how I should have acted and trying to hand our judgement and punishment then he can bugger off; that isn't His right, and if He cannot see that then His morality is inferior to mine (mind you we knew that from His conduct in the Old Testament anyway).


Again. You know nothing about the reasons for what happened in the OT. You know nothing about God as a person and if you understood the bible you would not make such suggestions as to think you are able to tell God to "Bugger off" or have any control over where you go on judgement day.

You can protest all you want but Christ will return and you will definitely be judged. The point is you don't have that choice to make. It is made by you when you reject Christ. So what is the point of saying things against the truth? The truth is all have sinned including you and we all understand we have to account for it.
No different from accounting to the law here.

Love Lynne.xxx Smilie_PDT
Leonard James

Hello again Lynne,
Judders Lady... wrote:
God created us perfect but free will must be the right to choose so make an informed decision.

If he had made us perfect then we couldn't have made the wrong decision, could we? Perfect things don't make mistakes. That's an obvious contradiction.
Quote:
The thing about Adam and Eve is they made an informed decision. The woman clearly shows she knows not to the eat the fruit because they will die. Satan, has been using the same wiles on people since the dawn of time.

Fiction.
Quote:
Me. personally, I believe God.  He has given us life and the means to maintain it. Satan tries to steal anything God gives us.

Belief.
Quote:
But as Job points out, if God give us something good we are thankful but when anything bad comes along we blame him.
Satan clearly the accuser and instigator who lost his seat of power of Christians.

Well, apart from the fact that all that is fiction, it's just the same stuff all over again. If he had 'created' his angels to be perfect, then Lucifer wouldn't have fallen, would he? Ergo, God did a bad job in creating him.
Quote:
The truth is we will always have the poor because everyone is too afraid to be without.

Put another way, there will always be poor people because the rest take more than their fair share.
Quote:
So unless everyone is of the same mind it cannot happen.
Hence why we have the poor.

Quite.
Quote:
I give monthly, also to NSPCC and the Red Cross plus other charities like water for life.

I commend you for that.
Quote:
I give what I can to others too, whether it is buying someone a weeks groceries, paying bills or rent/mortgage to ensure their home is safe and their children fed.

That is excellent, Lynne, and I admit that it is more than I do.  
Quote:
Not from the wealth of the World but the Lord God who gives me the ability and the knowledge and love to use what he has given me for the welfare of others.

You do it because you think it is the right thing to do.
Quote:
My eyes are firmly open to the truth that there is one God and that Satan uses everything evil to drive wedges between us and God.

Fiction.
Quote:
Who knows what tomorrow will bring but God. The good things are all Gods creation and the bad things that happen are all the doing of the devil.

Well, if God created the imperfect angel, as you claim, he is to blame for everything, isn't he? Simple logic.

Quote:
As, a child, I could clearly see the bad things came from Satan and the Good things came from God. Sshhhh don't let everyone know

Belief.
Quote:
....But Satan and his  main ace is always to do the bad things and let God take the blame for it... :wink:  

Fiction.  Smilie_PDT
Judders Lady...

Well Hullo (((Leonard))),
Leonard James wrote:
Hello again Lynne,
Judders Lady... wrote:
God created us perfect but free will must be the right to choose so make an informed decision.

If he had made us perfect then we couldn't have made the wrong decision, could we? Perfect things don't make mistakes. That's an obvious contradiction.


What is the definition of 'free will'
It is the ability to choose that which we will.
To do that we must and require choices. Without choices there is no such thing as free will.

The power to have a choice comes from the choices being available.
Do third world countries choose not to eat or does the fact there is no food mean they have no choice but not to eat. So there is no choice, they do not eat because there is no food. No choice to make and so no free will to choose.

The decisions we make do not reflect our ability to be perfect in that we have free will. Free will is not perfect because it is not robotic in that we can make the wrong choice. So our free will is perfect in that it can choose either good or bad. But that choice can be made in the knowledge of what is right and wrong.

Since Adam man has always know what is right and wrong.
They use their will knowing the difference and our laws show we do.
There are some matters not so clear cut.
But we do have a perfect free will, we just have the tendency to make the wrong decision sometimes. Albeit, a knowing decision of what is right and wrong in every situation. Some decisions are not reflected as good or bad. So yes our free will is perfect just our choices made, are not.


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The thing about Adam and Eve is they made an informed decision. The woman clearly shows she knows not to the eat the fruit because they will die. Satan, has been using the same wiles on people since the dawn of time.

Fiction.



Says who? What about your 'free will' made that decision for you?
It is a good decision or a bad decision? How can you tell?

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Me. personally, I believe God.  He has given us life and the means to maintain it. Satan tries to steal anything God gives us.

Belief.


It is a choice based on the truth God has given us.
Why disbelieve God?

Quote:

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But as Job points out, if God give us something good we are thankful but when anything bad comes along we blame him.
Satan clearly the accuser and instigator who lost his seat of power of Christians.

Well, apart from the fact that all that is fiction, it's just the same stuff all over again. If he had 'created' his angels to be perfect, then Lucifer wouldn't have fallen, would he? Ergo, God did a bad job in creating him.


He created them with a perfect 'free will'. They already knew right and wrong so Satan used his free will to make an informed choice.
Surely, you cannot say 'free will' should be removed and we made robots so we cannot choose to disobey?
God did a perfect Job. Man just ignored what he was told just as men do today. They ignore the warnings of what is good and bad.

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The truth is we will always have the poor because everyone is too afraid to be without.

Put another way, there will always be poor people because the rest take more than their fair share.


That is not true, we are all born where we are. Each must give accordingly, wherever we are. You and I, both do this, so how can we take more than our fair share if we give to others?

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So unless everyone is of the same mind it cannot happen.
Hence why we have the poor.

Quite.
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I give monthly, also to NSPCC and the Red Cross plus other charities like water for life.

I commend you for that.


I do it because I care, just as you do. To you and I, it is not a big deal. It is very little, really.:(  We hardly touch the surface.


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I give what I can to others too, whether it is buying someone a weeks groceries, paying bills or rent/mortgage to ensure their home is safe and their children fed.

That is excellent, Lynne, and I admit that it is more than I do.



It, is more a case where God has put us and what he wants us to do for others. Apart from family and close friends, I really don't make a habit of divulging these things. My family and friends, know of my help which I have given them. But I ask them to keep things to themselves. It allows me to help those who really need it, that is when I am financially able to.  Because it is really all about having the funds when needed.

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Not from the wealth of the World but the Lord God who gives me the ability and the knowledge and love to use what he has given me for the welfare of others.

You do it because you think it is the right thing to do.


I do it because I care.... simple really.


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My eyes are firmly open to the truth that there is one God and that Satan uses everything evil to drive wedges between us and God.

Fiction.


I know it sounds silly, but I am regretting mentioning the things I do for others. Why? because the things I do are because of my love for the Lord and more importantly his selfless love for me.
There are few things I find important in my life. I have not love of money or material possesions, but I do have a genuine and sincere love of other human beings. Life, has not been so easy for me, but I do try and help others from going through anything that I can stop them suffering with.
Sometimes it is easier to deal with our own pains by helping others with theirs.



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Who knows what tomorrow will bring but God. The good things are all Gods creation and the bad things that happen are all the doing of the devil.

Well, if God created the imperfect angel, as you claim, he is to blame for everything, isn't he? Simple logic.


It isn't logic it is deception, simple and plain.
God never made anything imperfect. Perfect free will allows us to choose between evil and good. God created Adam not to know good and evil, so technically he could not do evil. But he did tell him why he could not eat from the tree of knowledge but gave the tree of life to be eaten from freely.
Adam had wisdom and understanding, he chose to ignore what he was told. He made the choice to ignore what God who had been only good to him, said. I am telling you the same, you have a choice.
Good and bad, don't make the choice. You do and it is the knowledge you have when you decide which makes the choice either a bad one or a good one.

The law shows that we had a choice, the choice is bad based on whether that law is broken? What law does loving God and others. break?

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As, a child, I could clearly see the bad things came from Satan and the Good things came from God. Sshhhh don't let everyone know

Belief.
Quote:


Solid in that it explains both God and Satan in a right understanding. Can you disprove these facts when looking at anything in the bible? God hides nothing in his word but his word shows clearly that Satan is the attacking force against man.
Quote:

....But Satan and his  main ace is always to do the bad things and let God take the blame for it... :wink:  

Fiction.  Smilie_PDT


What is fiction? The fact that you blame God for all the bad things in the world but his Word shows clearly Satan to be the father of lies and master deceiver and therefore the  real culprit?
I don't know about all the things men choose to believe with their free will. I made my choice and I believe what God is telling me.
We have to wait till God comes and all things are back in their rightful place before you will know for sure, I am telling the truth.

Love Lynne.xxx




Smilie_PDT
Leonard James

That's all very pretty stuff, Lynne, and if it makes you tick, then why not?  

I can only add that I prefer reality. :twisted:
Judders Lady...

Leonard James wrote:
That's all very pretty stuff, Lynne, and if it makes you tick, then why not?  

I can only add that I prefer reality. :twisted:


That's right, avoid the issues you cannot answer. Smilie_PDT  

But, "I still love you", anyway.

Love Lynne.xxx Smilie_PDT
ceramic

Leonard James wrote:
ceramic wrote:
There is plenty of evidence to corroborate that claim.


Really? Do tell me what it is?


The Scripture
In the New Testament, Christ sends out His apostles to heal and to "cast out devils" (Matt. 10:8, Luke 10:17-20). Christ Himself often expels demons from the possessed (Mark 1:23-27; Luke 4:33-35, 9:43; Matt. 10:1; Mark 16:17; Matt. 7:22). The New Testament, however, rejects popular uses of magic incantations and rites to expel the satanic powers from people, because they take advantage of superstitious religiosity (Acts 19:13).

In the name of Christ, one is able to cast out demons and to destroy the evil powers (Matt. 10:8). The Fathers of the Church accepted this doctrine and expanded on it. Justin Martyr (Apology 85, 2) says that in the name of Christ, the Son of God who was crucified and rose again, every demon that is exorcised is defeated and submits (Library of the Greek Fathers and Church Writers, Athens: Apostolike Diakonia 1955, Vol. 3, pp. 288-89).

Satanic powers are destroyed through the power of the cross and the name of Christ. Objects possessed by demons, when exorcised in the name of the living God, are freed from the possession of evil. The patristic evidence is abundant in the belief in possession and expulsion of the devil by the power of the word of God (Ignatios, Epistles to Philippians 3 and 12; Library of the Greek Fathers and Church Writers, Vol. 2, pp. 333 and 336; Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 4:14; Library, Vol 8, p. 82; Origen, Against Celsus, 6:44; Library, Vol. 10, p. 93).

The demonic possession of individuals and even of objects, has been accepted by the Orthodox Church today in the Sacrament of Baptism, in exorcising satanic powers in the case of the evil eye (vaskania), and in exorcising the devil in the case of a possessed person.

This occurs daily at the island of Cephalonia at the church of Saint Gerasimos. None of these people are paid actors. Should you doubt the proof, I highly recommend that it is a place YOU DO visit and see with your own eyes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6ld8oXgSHc
Leonard James

I'm sorry, Ceramic, I see nothing but histrionic nonsense; highly strung people letting their imaginations run away with them, probably prompted by the daft things they have been told or read.

That's all.
ceramic

"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinion"

- Leonardo
Leonard James

ceramic wrote:
"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinion"

- Leonardo

If that is true, it applies to everybody's opinion, so it makes no difference whether you have the confidence to use your own, or take the weak way out and adopt somebody else's ... they are all deceiving!  :twisted:
Leonard James

Judders Lady... wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
That's all very pretty stuff, Lynne, and if it makes you tick, then why not?  

I can only add that I prefer reality. :twisted:


That's right, avoid the issues you cannot answer. Smilie_PDT  

Banging my head against a brick wall is something I can only stand for a short period, Lynne! :twisted:
ceramic

Leonard James wrote:
ceramic wrote:
"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinion"

- Leonardo

If that is true, it applies to everybody's opinion, so it makes no difference whether you have the confidence to use your own, or take the weak way out and adopt somebody else's ... they are all deceiving!  :twisted:


I would suggest that you clearly prove that your own opinion falls into the deceptive category then ...

Scripture is not opinion it is the history of mankind. It can be proven that its writings are often misunderstood but it has never been proven wrong in its accuracy of predicting historical events or supporting archaeological finds.
Leonard James

ceramic wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
ceramic wrote:
"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinion"

- Leonardo

If that is true, it applies to everybody's opinion, so it makes no difference whether you have the confidence to use your own, or take the weak way out and adopt somebody else's ... they are all deceiving!  :twisted:


I would suggest that you clearly prove that your own opinion falls into the deceptive category then ...

The quote doesn't mention categories. It refers to ALL men's opinions.

Quote:
Scripture is not opinion it is the history of mankind.

It is the writers opinion of the history of mankind.
Quote:
It can be proven that its writings are often misunderstood but it has never been proven wrong in its accuracy of predicting historical events or supporting archaeological finds.

That depends on who is 'interpreting' the predictions.

In any case, my original comment was on the cavorting and antics of the individuals being 'exorcised'. A right pantomime of self-deception. Smilie_PDT
ceramic

A scoofer seeks wisdom
 and does not find it,
But knowledge
 is easy to him who understands.
Go from the presence of a foolish man,
When you do not perceive in him the
 lips of knowledge.
The wisdom of the prudent
 is to understand his way,
But the folly of fools is deceit.

"There is a way which seems right to a
 man,
But its end is the way of death."
Leonard James

Calling people who don't agree with you fools is a ploy that takes in only the foolish.  Smilie_PDT
Pukon_the_Treen

Lynne,

You claimed that people like me would “glad string a paedophile up and not feel guilt or remorse at doing so”.  This is either a total ignorance or misunderstanding of my actual opinions, so I have no idea why you would make such a claim.  When challenged on this gross misrepresentation you do as you always do; never an apology or admission of error, simply a shift of stance and go on the offensive to try to cover yourself:

Quote:
Make them answerable by taking them out of society?
How else would you describe it, seeing as hanging is unlawful?
Don't play tactics I really do not appreciate it


Can you even tell when you are talking crap, or has the Holy Spirit somehow drawn a veil over this vital ability?  I'm not 'playing tactics' whatever the hell you mean by this, and you can frankly bugger off; once again you disappoint me with your utterly pathetic, confused and repellent debating technique.
Judders Lady...

Pukon_the_Treen wrote:
Lynne,

You claimed that people like me would “glad string a paedophile up and not feel guilt or remorse at doing so”.  This is either a total ignorance or misunderstanding of my actual opinions, so I have no idea why you would make such a claim.  When challenged on this gross misrepresentation you do as you always do; never an apology or admission of error, simply a shift of stance and go on the offensive to try to cover yourself:


`DEFINTION`

Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary
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Does your English Dictionary give you the help you need? We publish dictionaries for people learning English all over the world.




Definition
string sb up phrasal verb
phrasal verb

[M] informal to kill someone by hanging them by the neck from a rope, usually as a punishment for a crime
He reckons they're too soft on mass murderers and says they ought to be strung up.

informal to punish someone severely
He ought to be strung up for what he said about his mother.



So you don't believe they should be punished severely?

Seems you owe me the apology.... See if your as quick to apologise for your out and out false accusation. :roll:


Quote:


Quote:
Make them answerable by taking them out of society?
How else would you describe it, seeing as hanging is unlawful?
Don't play tactics I really do not appreciate it


Can you even tell when you are talking crap, or has the Holy Spirit somehow drawn a veil over this vital ability?  I'm not 'playing tactics' whatever the hell you mean by this, and you can frankly bugger off; once again you disappoint me with your utterly pathetic, confused and repellent debating technique.


Disappoint you, with your understanding, no one person must disppoint you, more than you do yourself. Get a life or get laid. It might make you better tempered. Oh! and when I start worrying what you think I shall kick your kennel.

Love Lynne.xxx :roll:
Pukon_the_Treen

So when you wrote:

Quote:
without laws; nothing to make them answerable they would do it more often and more openly, so  causing good people to take matters into their own hands and do things they normally wouldn't. Even in society today, we hear people such as yourself who would glad string a paedophile up and not feel guilt or remorse at doing so.  

You actually meant:

Quote:
Even in society today, we hear people such as yourself who would severely punish paedophiles.


You are so full of crap Lynne - how can you even walk without soiling yourself.

By the way, I actually think paedophiles are mentally ill and should be treated as mental patients rather than criminals, but that's by the by.
Shaker

By the by, there's a good opener for a whole new debate - is paedophilia a mental disorder to be treated compassionately, or a crime to be punished severely?

Time for a new thread, if anybody's interested!
Judders Lady...

Pukon_the_Treen wrote:
So when you wrote:

Quote:
without laws; nothing to make them answerable they would do it more often and more openly, so  causing good people to take matters into their own hands and do things they normally wouldn't. Even in society today, we hear people such as yourself who would glad string a paedophile up and not feel guilt or remorse at doing so.  

You actually meant:

Quote:
Even in society today, we hear people such as yourself who would severely punish paedophiles.


You are so full of crap Lynne - how can you even walk without soiling yourself.

By the way, I actually think paedophiles are mentally ill and should be treated as mental patients rather than criminals, but that's by the by.


If they were mentally ill they would be in mental hospitals not prisons.
So I guess that is why you are not psychiatrist.


:roll:
Pukon_the_Treen

Quote:
If they were mentally ill they would be in mental hospitals not prisons.


That may be one of the most stupid things you have ever written.
Judders Lady...

Pukon_the_Treen wrote:
Quote:
If they were mentally ill they would be in mental hospitals not prisons.


That may be one of the most stupid things you have ever written.


9. Is paedophilia a mental illness?

No, paedophilia is not a mental illness, but it is regarded as a "disorder of sexual preference", to quote the World Health Organization's formulation.

10. Are paedophiles responsible in criminal law for the acts they commit when they abuse a child?

This is a key question, since individuals who were not responsible for their actions when the offence was committed cannot be convicted in a court of law. Expert psychiatric witnesses take the view that paedophiles who actively commit child abuse are, with a few rare exceptions, aware that their actions are immoral and against the law. They are not people who are mentally ill and who might consequently be held not to be responsible for their actions. And they are, in fact, held responsible in the courts for the offences they commit.


Seems NOT!  :roll:
Pukon_the_Treen

Quote:
Seems NOT!


I think it is a mental illness, because deriving pleasure from other people's pain and fear is clearly not a sign of a normal healthy mind.  As with everything I post, this should be read as my personal opinion, so I don't really care what the World Health Organization's formulation says.  I do have my own opinions, and sometimes they are at odds with those of our various governing bodies, elected officials and even professional experts, especially in a field as subjective as morality.

I take it you are happy with the judgement of the World Health Organisation in all things?

Your statement “If they were mentally ill they would be in mental hospitals not prisons.” (compete with a 'roll-eye' smiley to suggest that it is an absurd question) seemed to me to be naïve because you apparently place total trust in the decisions of the powers that be.

It's like writing “if they were responsible citizens then women would be allowed to vote” or “if mixed race children were acceptable then blacks would be able to marry whites” or “if homosexuality were normal then gays would be allowed to get married”.

You are just switching off your capacity for reason and deferring to another authority.
Judders Lady...

Pukon_the_Treen wrote:
Quote:
Seems NOT!


I think it is a mental illness, because deriving pleasure from other people's pain and fear is clearly not a sign of a normal healthy mind.  As with everything I post, this should be read as my personal opinion, so I don't really care what the World Health Organization's formulation says.  I do have my own opinions, and sometimes they are at odds with those of our various governing bodies, elected officials and even professional experts, especially in a field as subjective as morality.

I take it you are happy with the judgement of the World Health Organisation in all things?

Your statement “If they were mentally ill they would be in mental hospitals not prisons.” (compete with a 'roll-eye' smiley to suggest that it is an absurd question) seemed to me to be naïve because you apparently place total trust in the decisions of the powers that be.

It's like writing “if they were responsible citizens then women would be allowed to vote” or “if mixed race children were acceptable then blacks would be able to marry whites” or “if homosexuality were normal then gays would be allowed to get married”.

You are just switching off your capacity for reason and deferring to another authority.




Thank God I don't have your reasoning.
The prisons would be emptied of all sex offenders and all mentally ill people would be classed as sex offenders.

:roll:
Pukon_the_Treen

Quote:
The prisons would be emptied of all sex offenders and all mentally ill people would be classed as sex offenders.


Do you not see that as somewhat disingenuous, or are to too soaked in your own bullshit to have a problem here?

Deriving pleasure from the pain and suffering of others does not just make you a criminal; moreover you are mentally ill, so an ordinary spell in the clink is not going to be any kind of solution to the problem.  Is that such a bizarre notion?

As I have asked you elsewhere, do you honesty think that people who derive pleasure from the pain and suffering of others are mentally healthy and normal?
Pukon_the_Treen

And hang on a second; wasn't it you who were accusing me of being the kind of person who would “glad string a paedophile up and not feel guilt or remorse at doing so”.  Are you going to take that back or just secrete some more effluent all over everything?
ceramic

Leonard James wrote:
Calling people who don't agree with you fools is a ploy that takes in only the foolish.  Smilie_PDT


If it were that you merely didnt agree with ME then possibly I would be foolish for responding ... but this is not personal.

Of all those who have a sense of the presence of God, the atheist's must be best, always knowing the direction to keep his back turned.

The person who has his back turned from the face of God IS foolish; not my own opinion but based on Scripture.

You would not hesitate and, indeed, you have not hesitated in calling any Christian "foolish" and, I would add, are guilty of much worse "name calling" than "foolish" ...
Leonard James

ceramic wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
Calling people who don't agree with you fools is a ploy that takes in only the foolish.  Smilie_PDT


If it were that you merely didnt agree with ME then possibly I would be foolish for responding ... but this is not personal.

My disagreement is with anyone who resorts to the childish ploy of calling people who don't agree with them foolish. And that includes anybody who says so, regardless of whether they are scripture writers or not.
Quote:
Of all those who have a sense of the presence of God, the atheist's must be best, always knowing the direction to keep his back turned.

God doesn't exist.

Quote:
The person who has his back turned from the face of God IS foolish; not my own opinion but based on Scripture.

The scripture writers of any religion are just men who believe different things.
Quote:
You would not hesitate and, indeed, you have not hesitated in calling any Christian "foolish" and, I would add, are guilty of much worse "name calling" than "foolish" ...

I don't think I have ever called anybody a fool for their beliefs, but if you can quote me as doing so I will gladly apologise. People who believe in supernatural gods are not fools, indeed many of them are highly intelligent. They are just gullible people who have been misled.

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