Archive for nglreturns.myfreeforum.org Nglreturns is a forum to discuss religion, philosophy, ethics etc...

NGLReturns Daily Quiz - Play here!
 



       nglreturns.myfreeforum.org Forum Index -> Bible study
Farmer Geddon

Isaiah 53:

In fact the whole of Isaiah.....

I genuinely don't get how this scroll is of importance to the Christian - it has nothing to do with Christianity!
Lectora

FG,
I'm surprised that you think Isaiah 53 and indeed the whole of Isaiah has nothing to do with Christianity when Christ himself quoted from it more than from any other book except the Psalms. His "commission" at the beginning of his ministry (Luke 4. 16ff) is quoted from Isaiah 61.1 ( the Septuagint version, not quite the same as in the Protestant OT. Check the 2 versions in your Bible, Isaiah 61.1,2 with Luke 4.18)

Isaiah 53 is the most famous of the Suffering Servant passages and many of the characteristics of the Suffering Servant can easily be said to be those of Christ. On the road to Emmaus, Luke 24.26, the risen Christ asks his companions if the Scriptures did not point to his suffering, death  and "rising in glory"  "Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets he interpreted to them the things about himself in all the Scriptures." (v27-)

The fascinating point here is that although Isaiah 53 is the nearest to telling us about the sufferings of the Suffering Servant, alias Christ to Christians, no where does Isiah 53 tell us about Christ"entering into his glory". To what Scriptures was Christ referring? We know from the different renderings in the Septuagint and from the scrolls found at Qumran (Dead Sea Scrolls) that the Jews altered  OT passages which could be interpreted by Christians as prophecies of Christ as Messiah. In fact, the early Church said so and we are only just taking note, because of the finds at Qumran and elsewere. There must be other versions, as yet lost to us.

In fact, there is an example in Isaiah 53 v 11 in the Masoretic text (Jewish), it reads  "Out of his anguish he shall lack light," Our modern translations have deliberately chosen the verse in the complete copy of Isaiah  found at Qumran  "he shall see light." (the Septuagint similar but not quite so clear). The KJB (1611) translators of v11 refused the Masoretic text translation too. They had  the Septuagint only and so  gave the verse as:  ""He shall see of the travail of his soul and be satisfied."
Honey 56

Re: Isaiah 53:

Farmer Geddon wrote:
In fact the whole of Isaiah.....

I genuinely don't get how this scroll is of importance to the Christian - it has nothing to do with Christianity!



The early Christians (who were also Jews) certainly understood that isaiah 53 was a prophecy concerning and fulfilled by Jesus Christ...
Acts 8: 26-39 descrbes how Phillip came across an Ethiopian who was reading the passage from Isaiah 53, Phillip explained to whom the scripture was referring, Phillip was able to share the good news of the gospel and lead the Ethiopian into understanding and a baptism followed.
It was the very first scripture I read and truly understood, so it holds a very special place in my heart too, I read it out at my baptism, aged thirty something!

It is a most beautiful and inspiring scripture (to me anyway)

Honey
Farmer Geddon

I guess the simple response is Isaiah 53 has nothing to do with the Christ.

I know you will all go bleating on about how the "suffering servant" must refer to the Christ.

But all through the rest of the book the author[s?] of Isaiah explicitly states that the "suffering servant" can only be identified as Jacob and Israel, (the Jewish People): Isaiah 53 is just the 4th servant song, which refers to a "servant of God.”

“But you, Israel, are my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen.” (Isaiah 41:8-9).

“Yet hear now, O Jacob My servant and Israel whom I have chosen.” (Isaiah 44:1).

“Remember these, O Jacob, And Israel, for you are My servant, I have formed you, you are My servant.” (Isaiah 44:21).

“…for Jacob My servant’s sake, and Israel My elect.” (Isaiah 45:4).

“The Lord has redeemed His servant Jacob.” (Isaiah 48:20).

“You are My servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.” (Isaiah 49:3).


The simple fact is God chose the Jewish People to be His servant nation and historically it is the Jewish People who have suffered at the hands of the 'Gentile' nations. [A bit of a misnomer seeing as Gentile means “the nations"]!

In the preceding verse at the end of Chapter 52; the writer of Isaiah reveals that the Gentile kings admit that they, the Gentiles, are the ones who have caused the Jews to suffer for their own sins:

Isaiah 52:13 “Behold, My [God] servant [Israel] will succeed; he [Israel] will be exalted and become high and exceedingly lofty.
14: Just as multitudes were astonished over you [Israel] …

15: So will the many nations exclaim about him [Israel] and [Gentile] kings will shut their mouths [in amazement] for they [Gentiles] will see that which had never been told to them [Gentiles], and will perceive things they (Gentiles] had never heard".


So in Isaiah 52, the Gentile kings “shut their mouths” when they realise that they sinned by persecuting the Jews for their own benefit.

So they are obviously being cast as the narrator of chapter 53.

Once you get your head round the fact that in Chapter 53, the “we” are the Gentiles and the “he” is Israel (the Jewish People), then it is easy to read it as thus:

“Who would believe what we [Gentiles] have heard! For whom has the arm of Hashem been revealed! Formerly he [Israel] grew like a sapling or like a root from arid ground; he had neither form nor grandeur; we saw him but without such visage that we could desire him. He was despised and isolated from men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness.
As one from whom we would hide our faces; he was despised, and we had no regard for him.
But in truth, it was our ills that he bore, and our pains that he carried – but we had regarded him diseased, stricken by God, and afflicted.
He was pained because of our rebellious sins and oppressed through our iniquities; the chastisement upon him was for our benefit, and through his wounds, we were healed.
We have all strayed like sheep, each of us turning his own way, and Hashem inflicted upon him the iniquity of us all.
He was persecuted and afflicted, but he did not open his mouth; like a sheep being led to the slaughter or a ewe that is silent before her shearers, he did not open his mouth.
Now that he has been released from captivity and judgment, who could have imagined such a generation? For he had been removed from the land of the living, an affliction upon them [lamo in Hebrew] that was my people’s sin.
He submitted himself to his grave like wicked men; and the wealthy [submitted] to his execution, for committing no crime and with no deceit in his mouth.
Hashem desired to oppress him and He afflicted him; if his soul would acknowledge guilt, he would see offspring and live long days and the desire of Hashem would succeed in his hand.
He would see (the purpose) and be satisfied with his soul’s distress.
With his knowledge My servant will vindicate the Righteous One to multitudes; it is their iniquities that he will carry.
Therefore, I will assign him a portion from the multitudes and he will divide the mighty as spoils – in return for having poured out his soul for death and being counted among the wicked, for he bore the sin of the multitudes, and prayed for the wicked.”


[This is a more truer translation from the original Hebrew]

Note the lower case 'him'/'he'/'his' - that is very significant.
Honey 56

Dear Farmer Geddon,

Once you get your head around the fact that all Christians, including and especially the early ones such as Phillip and Peter have absolutely no doubt that Isaiah 53 is a prophesy which Jesus fullfilled totally, you will be able to stop fighting against the obvious. We know that the early believers knew this because they quote it in regard to The Christ in the Gospels and the epistles, in fact Jesus quoted it regarding himself.

If you google on a good bible sight such as biblos or biblegateway there are commentaries by theologians and believers who have a proper understanding of scripture, there it will be explained fully and correctly.

Honey
Jim

I've just noticed this thread.
The first thing I'd say is that I miss Lectora, whose posts on the CMTB were always thoughtful, incisive and practical when it came to faith building.
Has anyone heard where she's gone?

    Second, I'd agree broadly with Honey ( Sorry, F.G., no surprise there! ) Is. 53 is just one of many theophanies - 'pre-echoes' if you like, of Christ in the Old Testament.
Honey 56

Jim wrote:
I've just noticed this thread.
The first thing I'd say is that I miss Lectora, whose posts on the CMTB were always thoughtful, incisive and practical when it came to faith building.
Has anyone heard where she's gone?

    Second, I'd agree broadly with Honey ( Sorry, F.G., no surprise there! ) Is. 53 is just one of many theophanies - 'pre-echoes' if you like, of Christ in the Old Testament.


Agreed Jim,

I learned a lot from Lectora, except when what she was discussing went right over my head!!!!  
No, she was excellent at explaining things, I miss her too.

Honey
Farmer Geddon

Honey 56 wrote:
Dear Farmer Geddon,

Once you get your head around the fact that all Christians, including and especially the early ones such as Phillip and Peter have absolutely no doubt that Isaiah 53 is a prophesy which Jesus fullfilled totally, you will be able to stop fighting against the obvious. We know that the early believers knew this because they quote it in regard to The Christ in the Gospels and the epistles, in fact Jesus quoted it regarding himself.

If you google on a good bible sight such as biblos or biblegateway there are commentaries by theologians and believers who have a proper understanding of scripture, there it will be explained fully and correctly.

Honey


Oh dear.. You really think that an illiterate Jewish fisherman wrote "Peter"?

Who in the name of the wee man is "Phillip"?

Not really that bothered about google searches, seeing as the vast majority of them, when discussing Jesus, take you to pro-evangelical Christian sites.. try going to a library instead.

The site you should be reading, regarding time-lines, is Peter Kirby's

I know it will confuse you at first, but I also know you will ignore what it claims.. because it doesn't fit your "Christ-Centric" position.

Also you haven't addressed my postulation that Isa 53 has fuck all to do with the "Christ" - I take it that that must mean that you are slowly starting to realise that the 'suffering servant' in this book must refer to the Jewish 'Nation' as a whole and not just one fella?

.
Farmer Geddon

OK I'm willing to take on any takers who can show me that Isaiah 53 is chatting about the "Christ"..

I'll give you a get-out clause.. it doesn't!!
Honey 56

Hello farmer,not my words but ........

Why Isaiah 53 cannot refer to the nation of Israel, or anyone else, but must be the Messiah


1. The servant of Isaiah 53 is an innocent and guiltless sufferer. Israel is never described as sinless. Isaiah 1:4 says of the nation: "Alas sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity. A brood of evildoers, children who are corrupters!" He then goes on in the same chapter to characterize Judah as Sodom, Jerusalem as a harlot, and the people as those whose hands are stained with blood (verses 10, 15, and 21). What a far cry from the innocent and guiltless sufferer of Isaiah 53 who had "done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth!"



2. The prophet said: "It pleased the LORD to bruise him." Has the awful treatment of the Jewish people (so contrary, by the way, to the teaching of Jesus to love everyone) really been God's pleasure, as is said of the suffering of the servant in Isaiah 53:10 ? If, as some rabbis contend, Isaiah 53 refers to the holocaust, can we really say of Israel's suffering during that horrible period, "It pleased the LORD to bruise him?" Yet it makes perfect sense to say that God was pleased to have Messiah suffer and die as our sin offering to provide us forgiveness and atonement.


3. The person mentioned in this passage suffers silently and willingly. Yet all people, even Israelites, complain when they suffer! Brave Jewish men and women fought in resistance movements against Hitler. Remember the Vilna Ghetto Uprising? Remember the Jewish men who fought on the side of the allies? Can we really say Jewish suffering during the holocaust and during the preceding centuries was done silently and willingly?


4. The figure described in Isaiah 53 suffers, dies, and rises again to atone for his people's sins. The Hebrew word used in Isaiah 53:10 for "sin-offering" is "asham," which is a technical term meaning "sin-offering." See how it is used in Leviticus chapters 5 and 6. Isaiah 53 describes a sinless and perfect sacrificial lamb who takes upon himself the sins of others so that they might be forgiven. Can anyone really claim that the terrible suffering of the Jewish people, however undeserved and unjust, atones for the sins of the world? Whoever Isaiah 53 speaks of, the figure described suffers and dies in order to provide a legal payment for sin so that others can be forgiven. This cannot be true of the Jewish people as a whole, or of any other mere human.


5. It is the prophet who is speaking in this passage. He says: "who has believed our message." The term "message" usually refers to the prophetic message, as it does in Jeremiah 49:14. Also, when we understand the Hebrew parallelism of verse 1, we see "Who has believed our message" as parallel to "to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed." The "arm of the Lord" refers to God's powerful act of salvation. So the message of the speaker is the message of a prophet declaring what God has done to save his people.


6. The prophet speaking is Isaiah himself, who says the sufferer was punished for "the transgression of my people," according to verse 8. Who are the people of Isaiah? Israel. So the sufferer of Isaiah 53 suffered for Israel. So how could he be Israel?


7. The figure of Isaiah 53 dies and is buried according to verses 8 and 9. The people of Israel have never died as a whole. They have been out of the land on two occasions and have returned, but they have never ceased to be among the living. Yet Jesus died, was buried, and rose again.


8. If Isaiah 53 cannot refer to Israel, how about Isaiah himself? But Isaiah said he was a sinful man of unclean lips (Isaiah 6:5-7). And Isaiah did not die as an atonement for our sins. Could it have been Jeremiah? Jeremiah 11:19 does echo the words of Isaiah 53. Judah rejected and despised the prophet for telling them the truth. Leaders of Judah sought to kill Jeremiah, and so the prophet describes himself in these terms. But they were not able to kill the prophet. Certainly Jeremiah did not die to atone for the sins of his people. What of Moses? Could the prophet have been speaking of him? But Moses wasn't sinless either. Moses sinned and was forbidden from entering the promised land (Numbers 20:12). Moses indeed attempted to offer himself as a sacrifice in place of the nation, but God did not allow him to do so (Exodus 32:30-35). Moses, Isaiah, and Jeremiah were all prophets who gave us a glimpse of what Messiah, the ultimate prophet, would be like, but none of them quite fit Isaiah 53.


So what can we conclude? Isaiah 53 cannot refer to the nation of Israel, nor to Isaiah, nor to Moses, nor another prophet. And if not to Moses, certainly not to any lesser man. Yet Messiah would be greater than Moses. As the rabbinic writing "Yalkut" said: "Who art thou, O great mountain? (Zech. iv.7) This refers to the King Messiah. And why does he call him`the great mountain?' because he is greater than the patriarchs, as it is said, `My servant shall be high, and lifted up, and lofty exceedingly' --he will be higher than Abraham...lifted up above Moses...loftier then the ministering angels..." (Quoted in The Fifty-third Chapter of Isaiah According to the Jewish Interpreters, Ktav Publishing House, 1969, Volume 2, page 9.)


Of whom does Isaiah speak? He speaks of the Messiah, as many ancient rabbis concluded. The second verse of Isaiah 53 makes it crystal clear. The figure grows up as "a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground." The shoot springing up is beyond reasonable doubt a reference to the Messiah, and, in fact, it is a common Messianic reference in Isaiah and elsewhere. The Davidic dynasty was to be cut down in judgement like a felled tree, but it was promised to Israel that a new sprout would shoot up from the stump. The Messiah was to be that sprout. Several Hebrew words were used to refer to this undeniably Messianic image. All the terms are related in meaning and connected in the Messianic texts where they were used. Isaiah 11, which virtually all rabbis agreed refers to the Messiah, used the words "shoot" (hoter) and branch (netser) to describe the Messianic King. Isaiah 11:10 called Messiah the "Root (shoresh) of Jesse," Jesse being David's father. Isaiah 53 described the suffering servant as a root (shoresh) from dry ground, using the very same metaphor and the very same word as Isaiah 11. We also see other terms used for the same concept, such as branch (tsemach) in Jeremiah 23:5, in Isaiah 4:2 and also in the startling prophecies of Zechariah 3:8 and 6:12.


Beyond doubt, Isaiah 52:13-53:12 refers to Messiah Jesus. He is the one highly exalted before whom kings shut their mouths. Messiah is the shoot who sprung up from the fallen Davidic dynasty. He became the King of Kings. He provided the ultimate atonement.


Isaiah 52:13 states that it would be the Messiah who will "sprinkle" many nations. What does that mean? What was Messiah's ministry to be toward the nations? The word translated "sprinkle" or sometimes "startle" is found several other places in the OT. The Hebrew word is found in Leviticus 4:6; 8:11; 14:7, and Numbers 8:7, 19:18-19. The references cited all pertain to priestly sprinklings of the blood of atonement, the anointing oil of consecration, and the ceremonial water used to cleanse the unclean. Is Isaiah 52:13 telling us that the Messiah will act as a priest who applies atonement, anoints to consecrate, sprinkles to make clean? (This vision of the Messiah as both priest and king is also found in Zechariah 6:12-13). But, priests were to come from the tribe of Levi and Kings from the tribe of Judah! What kind of priest is he? David told us Messiah would be a priest of the order of Melchizedek (see Psalm 110 and Hebrews chapters 7-9).


Isaiah 53 must be understood as referring to the coming Davidic King, the Messiah. King Messiah was prophesied to suffer and die to pay for our sins and then rise again. He would serve as a priest to the nations of the world and apply the blood of atonement to cleanse those who believe. There is one alone who this can refer to, Jesus, whom millions refer to as Christ, which is from the Greek word for Messiah. Those who confess him are his children, his promised offspring, the spoils of his victory. According to the testimony of the Jewish Apostles, Jesus died for our sins, rose again, ascended to the right hand of God, and he now serves as our great High Priest who cleanses us of sin and our King. Jesus rules over his people and is in the process of conquering the Gentiles. The first century Jewish disciples were willing to die rather than deny they had seen the risen Messiah. Only if one has presupposed Jesus cannot have been the Messiah can one deny that which is obvious. Israel's greatest son, Jesus, is the one Isaiah foresaw.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(c) 1997 Fred Klett


www.chaim.org/isaiah53.htm
Farmer Geddon

Honey 56 wrote:
Hello farmer,not my words but ........

Why Isaiah 53 cannot refer to the nation of Israel, or anyone else, but must be the Messiah


Ok I can live with that as an opening statement, although I would prefer if it claimed "might not refer to the nation of Israel"

Is the rest going to claim which 'Messiah' it may refer to?


Quote:
1. The servant of Isaiah 53 is an innocent and guiltless sufferer. Israel is never described as sinless. Isaiah 1:4 says of the nation: "Alas sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity. A brood of evildoers, children who are corrupters!" He then goes on in the same chapter to characterize Judah as Sodom, Jerusalem as a harlot, and the people as those whose hands are stained with blood (verses 10, 15, and 21). What a far cry from the innocent and guiltless sufferer of Isaiah 53 who had "done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth!"


Hmm but if you carry on with the text you find that their God gives them a get out clause - "16 Wash you, make you clean, put away the evil of your doings from before Mine eyes, cease to do evil;

17 Learn to do well; seek justice, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD; though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land;

20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword; for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken".....

26 "And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counselors as at the beginning; afterward thou shalt be called the city of righteousness, the faithful city.

27 Zion shall be redeemed with justice, and they that return of her with righteousness.

28 But the destruction of the transgressors and the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed".



A theme that runs throughout the books of Isaiah.






Quote:
2. The prophet said: "It pleased the LORD to bruise him." Has the awful treatment of the Jewish people (so contrary, by the way, to the teaching of Jesus to love everyone) really been God's pleasure, as is said of the suffering of the servant in Isaiah 53:10 ? If, as some rabbis contend, Isaiah 53 refers to the holocaust, can we really say of Israel's suffering during that horrible period, "It pleased the LORD to bruise him?" Yet it makes perfect sense to say that God was pleased to have Messiah suffer and die as our sin offering to provide us forgiveness and atonement.


Well to be fair the actual passage says "10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand:"

Trying to move out the shadow of Godwin it could be said that because the Jews as a nation are still suffering at the behest of the Gentiles so their 'Messiah' has yet to appear.


Quote:
3. The person mentioned in this passage suffers silently and willingly. Yet all people, even Israelites, complain when they suffer! Brave Jewish men and women fought in resistance movements against Hitler. Remember the Vilna Ghetto Uprising? Remember the Jewish men who fought on the side of the allies? Can we really say Jewish suffering during the holocaust and during the preceding centuries was done silently and willingly?


Godwin!


Quote:
4. The figure described in Isaiah 53 suffers, dies, and rises again to atone for his people's sins. The Hebrew word used in Isaiah 53:10 for "sin-offering" is "asham," which is a technical term meaning "sin-offering." See how it is used in Leviticus chapters 5 and 6. Isaiah 53 describes a sinless and perfect sacrificial lamb who takes upon himself the sins of others so that they might be forgiven. Can anyone really claim that the terrible suffering of the Jewish people, however undeserved and unjust, atones for the sins of the world? Whoever Isaiah 53 speaks of, the figure described suffers and dies in order to provide a legal payment for sin so that others can be forgiven. This cannot be true of the Jewish people as a whole, or of any other mere human.


Not really sure what the argument is here?

I'm struggling to find a reference to "rising again" in Isa 53?


Quote:
5. It is the prophet who is speaking in this passage. He says: "who has believed our message." The term "message" usually refers to the prophetic message, as it does in Jeremiah 49:14. Also, when we understand the Hebrew parallelism of verse 1, we see "Who has believed our message" as parallel to "to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed." The "arm of the Lord" refers to God's powerful act of salvation. So the message of the speaker is the message of a prophet declaring what God has done to save his people.


As I have already shown it is more likely that the Gentiles are the ones who exclaim: Isa 53:1"Who would believe what we have heard! For whom has the arm of God been revealed"!

What is “the arm of God"? .. well all through the rest of the Jewish Bible, God's "arm" usually denotes a redemption of the Jewish people from physical persecution.  ( Deut. 26:8 And the LORD brought us forth out of Egypt with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with great terribleness, and with signs, and with wonders.
 
Exodus 6:6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel: I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will deliver you from their bondage, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm, and with great judgments;
 
Deut. 4:34 Or hath God assayed to go and take Him a nation from the midst of another nation, by trials, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a mighty hand, and by an outstretched arm, and by great terrors, according to all that the LORD your God did for you in Egypt before thine eyes?

Deut. 7:19 the great trials which thine eyes saw, and the signs, and the wonders, and the mighty hand, and the outstretched arm, whereby the LORD thy God brought thee out; so shall the LORD thy God do unto all the peoples of whom thou art afraid.
 
Isaiah 51:9 Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in the days of old, the generations of ancient times. Art thou not it that hewed Rahab in pieces, that pierced the dragon?
 
Isa 52:10 The LORD hath made bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

Isa 62:8 The LORD hath sworn by His right hand, and by the arm of His strength: Surely I will no more give thy corn to be food for thine enemies; and strangers shall not drink thy wine, for which thou hast laboured;  

Isa 63:12 That caused His glorious arm to go at the right hand of Moses? That divided the water before them, to make Himself an everlasting name?  
Jeremiah 21:5 And I myself will fight against you with an outstretched hand and with a strong arm, even in anger, and in fury, and in great wrath.
Jer. 27:5 I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are upon the face of the earth, by My great power and by My outstretched arm; and I give it unto whom it seemeth right unto Me.  

Ezekiel 20:33 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, will I be king over you;  

Psalms 44:3 For not by their own sword did they get the land in possession, neither did their own arm save them but Thy right hand, and Thine arm, and the light of Thy countenance, because Thou wast favourable unto them. 89:11 Thou didst crush Rahab, as one that is slain; Thou didst scatter Thine enemies with the arm of Thy strength. 98:1 A Psalm. O sing unto the LORD a new song; for He hath done marvellous things; His right hand, and His holy arm, hath wrought salvation for Him. 136:12 With a strong hand, and with an outstretched arm, for His mercy endureth for ever).

Which shows me that the whom of "arm of the LORD" refers to the Jewish People and the Gentiles are the ones chatting about it

Quote:
6. The prophet speaking is Isaiah himself, who says the sufferer was punished for "the transgression of my people," according to verse 8. Who are the people of Isaiah? Israel. So the sufferer of Isaiah 53 suffered for Israel. So how could he be Israel?


No, the narrator is obviously the Gentile kings referred to in Isa 52:15 "So shall he startle many nations, kings shall shut their mouths because of him; for that which had not been told them shall they see, and that which they had not heard shall they perceive - Who would have believed our report? And to whom hath the arm of the LORD been revealed?
For he shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground; he had no form nor comeliness, that we should look upon him, nor beauty that we should delight in him".

This imagery of a tree struggling to grow in dry earth is a metaphor for the Jewish struggle in exile. A young sapling in dry ground appears that it will die. The Jews were always a small nation, threatened with extinction.

In this verse Isaiah describes Israel’s miraculous return from exile, like a sapling that sprouts from this dry ground. This idea appears throughout the Jewish Bible (see Isaiah 60:21, Ezekiel 19:13, Hosea 14:6-7, Amos 9:15).

They were a nondescript race so of course they would generally get along unnoticed!

Verse 8 states that the Jews were released from captivity and judgment; The Gentile Kings marveled at witnessing the Jewish return to the Promised Land.
"For he [The Jewish Nation] was cut off out of the land of the living"; does not mean that the 'servant' was killed, but rather was exiled from the Land of Israel.

When the Gentile Kings exclaim "and with his generation who did reason” this was them admitting to being surprised that the nation they had oppressed was now prospering and confessing that because of "my [their] people's sin, there was injury to them [The Jews]".

This was the writer making clear that the oppressed Servant is a collective Servant, not a single individual.


Quote:
7. The figure of Isaiah 53 dies and is buried according to verses 8 and 9. The people of Israel have never died as a whole. They have been out of the land on two occasions and have returned, but they have never ceased to be among the living. Yet Jesus died, was buried, and rose again.


See above; being cut off/removed from the Land of the Living [Eretz HaChaim] can be seen as being removed from "The Promise land".

Verse 9 is interesting: "And they made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich his tomb; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth".

This to me seems to follow on the theme of the Gentile kings exclaiming that "They" had done 'him' wrong.

Throughout history, Jews were given the choice to “convert or die” Yet being loyal to their LORD they would refused to accept any pagan deity as their 'God'.
So rather than profane their LORDS Holy Name, they “submitted to the grave” - Chose to die rather than renounce their faith.
Although they committed "no violence" these Jews were often denied proper burial, discarded “to the grave with the wicked.”

I'm wondering if the more wealthy/leaders/kings of the exiles, when they died, could afford a decent burial before being robbed of their wealth?



Quote:
8. If Isaiah 53 cannot refer to Israel, how about Isaiah himself? But Isaiah said he was a sinful man of unclean lips (Isaiah 6:5-7). And Isaiah did not die as an atonement for our sins. Could it have been Jeremiah? Jeremiah 11:19 does echo the words of Isaiah 53. Judah rejected and despised the prophet for telling them the truth. Leaders of Judah sought to kill Jeremiah, and so the prophet describes himself in these terms. But they were not able to kill the prophet. Certainly Jeremiah did not die to atone for the sins of his people. What of Moses? Could the prophet have been speaking of him? But Moses wasn't sinless either. Moses sinned and was forbidden from entering the promised land (Numbers 20:12). Moses indeed attempted to offer himself as a sacrifice in place of the nation, but God did not allow him to do so (Exodus 32:30-35). Moses, Isaiah, and Jeremiah were all prophets who gave us a glimpse of what Messiah, the ultimate prophet, would be like, but none of them quite fit Isaiah 53.


Jesus this guy is like a terrier with a rag....

Because of the nature of the writing of Isa 53, mainly written in the past tense, there is much speculation that it may be referring to Moses.


Quote:
So what can we conclude? Isaiah 53 cannot refer to the nation of Israel, nor to Isaiah, nor to Moses, nor another prophet. And if not to Moses, certainly not to any lesser man. Yet Messiah would be greater than Moses. As the rabbinic writing "Yalkut" said: "Who art thou, O great mountain? (Zech. iv.7) This refers to the King Messiah. And why does he call him`the great mountain?' because he is greater than the patriarchs, as it is said, `My servant shall be high, and lifted up, and lofty exceedingly' --he will be higher than Abraham...lifted up above Moses...loftier then the ministering angels..." (Quoted in The Fifty-third Chapter of Isaiah According to the Jewish Interpreters, Ktav Publishing House, 1969, Volume 2, page 9.)


See above


Quote:
Of whom does Isaiah speak? He speaks of the Messiah, as many ancient rabbis concluded. The second verse of Isaiah 53 makes it crystal clear. The figure grows up as "a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground." The shoot springing up is beyond reasonable doubt a reference to the Messiah, and, in fact, it is a common Messianic reference in Isaiah and elsewhere. The Davidic dynasty was to be cut down in judgement like a felled tree, but it was promised to Israel that a new sprout would shoot up from the stump. The Messiah was to be that sprout. Several Hebrew words were used to refer to this undeniably Messianic image. All the terms are related in meaning and connected in the Messianic texts where they were used. Isaiah 11, which virtually all rabbis agreed refers to the Messiah, used the words "shoot" (hoter) and branch (netser) to describe the Messianic King. Isaiah 11:10 called Messiah the "Root (shoresh) of Jesse," Jesse being David's father. Isaiah 53 described the suffering servant as a root (shoresh) from dry ground, using the very same metaphor and the very same word as Isaiah 11. We also see other terms used for the same concept, such as branch (tsemach) in Jeremiah 23:5, in Isaiah 4:2 and also in the startling prophecies of Zechariah 3:8 and 6:12.


See above


Quote:
Beyond doubt, Isaiah 52:13-53:12 refers to Messiah Jesus. He is the one highly exalted before whom kings shut their mouths. Messiah is the shoot who sprung up from the fallen Davidic dynasty. He became the King of Kings. He provided the ultimate atonement.


No it doesn't. If it was beyond doubt then we wouldn't be having this discussion


Quote:
Isaiah 52:13 states that it would be the Messiah who will "sprinkle" many nations. What does that mean? What was Messiah's ministry to be toward the nations? The word translated "sprinkle" or sometimes "startle" is found several other places in the OT. The Hebrew word is found in Leviticus 4:6; 8:11; 14:7, and Numbers 8:7, 19:18-19. The references cited all pertain to priestly sprinklings of the blood of atonement, the anointing oil of consecration, and the ceremonial water used to cleanse the unclean. Is Isaiah 52:13 telling us that the Messiah will act as a priest who applies atonement, anoints to consecrate, sprinkles to make clean? (This vision of the Messiah as both priest and king is also found in Zechariah 6:12-13). But, priests were to come from the tribe of Levi and Kings from the tribe of Judah! What kind of priest is he? David told us Messiah would be a priest of the order of Melchizedek (see Psalm 110 and Hebrews chapters 7-9).


Now losing the will to continue this dialogue.


Quote:
Isaiah 53 must be understood as referring to the coming Davidic King, the Messiah. King Messiah was prophesied to suffer and die to pay for our sins and then rise again. He would serve as a priest to the nations of the world and apply the blood of atonement to cleanse those who believe. There is one alone who this can refer to, Jesus, whom millions refer to as Christ, which is from the Greek word for Messiah. Those who confess him are his children, his promised offspring, the spoils of his victory. According to the testimony of the Jewish Apostles, Jesus died for our sins, rose again, ascended to the right hand of God, and he now serves as our great High Priest who cleanses us of sin and our King. Jesus rules over his people and is in the process of conquering the Gentiles. The first century Jewish disciples were willing to die rather than deny they had seen the risen Messiah. Only if one has presupposed Jesus cannot have been the Messiah can one deny that which is obvious. Israel's greatest son, Jesus, is the one Isaiah foresaw.


No it shouldn't and in fact doesn't.

This is one of the occasional allusions to a suffering messiah of Isaiah and the Talmudic Tradition of there being two Messiahs, (Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David), that certain Christians try to weave into their notion of a "Suffering Servant"

The origin of the two messiah tradition is obscure, appearing in the Babylonian Talmud and possibly going back to the late second century C.E.

But it has to be pointed out however that while Messiah ben Joseph was in fact to be slain, his role was that of a political messiah and not one whose death had any sacrificial and certainly no indirect effect.

On the other hand, Messiah ben David suffers, but does not die. So any connections between the supposed messianic servant in Isaiah and either of these messiahs is tenuous at best, misleading at worst.

Also I abhor this sloppy 'theology" of "Those who confess him are his children, his promised offspring, the spoils of his victory".

Please. I assume this is an allusion to Isa 53:10 "Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand": There is only one way to interpret who or what is meant by 'his seed'......
Farmer Geddon

Oh and to compound it all "Isa 53" ain't traditionally seen as a "Messiah" text within the Jewish community..

Basically because it isn't!
LeClerc

Hi Farmer

Farmer Geddon wrote:
Oh and to compound it all "Isa 53" ain't traditionally seen as a "Messiah" text within the Jewish community..

Basically because it isn't!


Could you please provide a definition of ''Jewish Community'' and the criteria by which one is either included or excluded.

LeClerc
bnabernard

The Jeww is a common term, rightly or wrongly it is assossiated with the descendents of Abraham an encompassing the twelve tribes of Israel regardless of whether they should be this or that or Ephram or Judah.
Regardless of the expectency in the land of Israel, what actually was the devised and prophetic destiny of the twelve tribes.

Deu 4:26   I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong [your] days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.  


Deu 4:27   And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.

bernard (hug)

Edit: sorry I forgot to post a link so that the whole lot can be read so here it is:- http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Deu&c=4&t=KJV#19
LeClerc

Morning Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
The Jeww is a common term, rightly or wrongly it is assossiated with the descendents of Abraham an encompassing the twelve tribes of Israel regardless of whether they should be this or that or Ephram or Judah.
Regardless of the expectency in the land of Israel, what actually was the devised and prophetic destiny of the twelve tribes.

Deu 4:26   I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong [your] days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.  


Deu 4:27   And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.

bernard (hug)

Edit: sorry I forgot to post a link so that the whole lot can be read so here it is:- http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Deu&c=4&t=KJV#19


So which is it Bernie, ''rightly or wrongly'' ?

LeClerc
bnabernard

What was right was that the Torah the law otherwise known as the word of God, got spread throughout the world, sooner rather than later?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Morning Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
What was right was that the Torah the law otherwise known as the word of God, got spread throughout the world, sooner rather than later?

bernard (hug)


Romans 4
13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect,

LeClerc
bnabernard

And when we understand what that means then we realise that law without faith has no meaning because Faith in the lawgiver brings faith in the law, if faith alone was all then there would be no need for law and there would be a lawless society, however as there is a law giver then faith in the lawgiver bringing faith in the law and and faith in obedience.
What good is law if there is no understanding, unless there is faith in the lawgiver.
So by faith in the lawgiver we nourish obedience to the law.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Morning Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
And when we understand what that means then we realise that law without faith has no meaning because Faith in the lawgiver brings faith in the law, if faith alone was all then there would be no need for law and there would be a lawless society, however as there is a law giver then faith in the lawgiver bringing faith in the law and and faith in obedience.
What good is law if there is no understanding, unless there is faith in the lawgiver.
So by faith in the lawgiver we nourish obedience to the law.

bernard (hug)


So you agree Bernie, YHWH is The Logos.  

LeClerc
bnabernard

You do love the greek Leclerc, beware of greeks bearing gifts. They were the ones being taught not the ones teaching.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
You do love the greek Leclerc, beware of greeks bearing gifts. They were the ones being taught not the ones teaching.

bernard (hug)


Greek was the lingua franca when John penned his gospel, but behind the lingua franca was a Hebraic mindset, it is that mindset I listen to Bernie even though it is penned using Greek words.

LeClerc
bnabernard

I'm glad you apreciate mindsets as the greek mindset was quite different from the ones who taught them of the one God.

Do you think they had any inherited mindset from the days of Noah?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
I'm glad you apreciate mindsets as the greek mindset was quite different from the ones who taught them of the one God.

Do you think they had any inherited mindset from the days of Noah?

bernard (hug)


Their mindset can be traced back to Abraham after all he was the first Hebrew.

LeClerc
bnabernard

Is that the first son of God?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Is that the first son of God?

bernard (hug)


Abraham was willing to give up his only son for YHWH. YHWH gave his only begotten Son for the people of Abraham.

LeClerc
bnabernard

If the first son was not beggoten (Israel) how did it become a son?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
If the first son was not beggoten (Israel) how did it become a son?

bernard (hug)


By adoption.

LeClerc
bnabernard

From whom or what did he adopt ?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
From whom or what did he adopt ?

bernard (hug)


The seed of the one YHWH calls His friend.

LeClerc
bnabernard

Is it not written that you should call no one father except your father in heaven?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Morning Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Is it not written that you should call no one father except your father in heaven?

bernard (hug)


What was the meaning behind the words of Y'shua.

Are you saying Stephen failed to understand ?

Acts 7
Then the high priest asked Stephen, “Are these charges true?”
2 To this he replied: “Brothers and fathers, listen to me! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham while he was still in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Harran.


LeClerc
bnabernard

LeClerc wrote:
Morning Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Is it not written that you should call no one father except your father in heaven?

bernard (hug)


What was the meaning behind the words of Y'shua.

Are you saying Stephen failed to understand ?

Acts 7
Then the high priest asked Stephen, “Are these charges true?”
2 To this he replied: “Brothers and fathers, listen to me! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham while he was still in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Harran.


LeClerc


Now you see (or don't) that those authorised by God where considered His true representatives speaking for God the Father, however in the case of the priests they no longer represented the Father but had spoken in His name to meet their own desires and neglected the people and had no right to be treated as fathers.
Abraham had Gods blessing and a field was planted, but when the owner sends the son to collect what do they do.
They say you can't have it it's our field.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Morning Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Morning Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Is it not written that you should call no one father except your father in heaven?

bernard (hug)


What was the meaning behind the words of Y'shua.

Are you saying Stephen failed to understand ?

Acts 7
Then the high priest asked Stephen, “Are these charges true?”
2 To this he replied: “Brothers and fathers, listen to me! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham while he was still in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Harran.


LeClerc


Now you see (or don't) that those authorised by God where considered His true representatives speaking for God the Father, however in the case of the priests they no longer represented the Father but had spoken in His name to meet their own desires and neglected the people and had no right to be treated as fathers.
Abraham had Gods blessing and a field was planted, but when the owner sends the son to collect what do they do.
They say you can't have it it's our field.

bernard (hug)


So you are in agreement Stephen did not misunderstand when He called Abraham, Father.

LeClerc
bnabernard

You'll have to ask him how many fathers children of God have.


bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Morning Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
You'll have to ask him how many fathers children of God have.


bernard (hug)


Genesis 17
3 Avram fell on his face, and God continued speaking with him: 4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: you will be the father of many nations. 5 Your name will no longer be Avram [exalted father], but your name will be Avraham [father of many], because I have made you the father of many nations.

LeClerc
bnabernard

So How many Fathers have the children of God got/ simple question

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
So How many Fathers have the children of God got/ simple question

bernard (hug)


One Everlasting Father.

but it is through the Everlasting Father

Isaiah 9
6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

that those who belong to The Messiah become the seed of Abraham

Galatians 3
28 there is neither Jew nor Greek, neither slave nor freeman, neither male nor female; for in union with the Messiah Yeshua, you are all one. 29 Also, if you belong to the Messiah, you are seed of Abraham and heirs according to the promise.

Or do you doubt YHWH's promise ?

LeClerc
bnabernard

One Everlasting Father.

but it is through the Everlasting Father


So there are two then?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
One Everlasting Father.

but it is through the Everlasting Father


So there are two then?

bernard (hug)


That depends on whether the Son has chosen to reveal The Father to the one asking the question.

Matthew 11
27 No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

LeClerc
bnabernard

So the reference is to 'the' Father as in singuler, and 'the son' as in singuler, now as 'the son' in question is Yeshua who is flesh and blood, how many Fathers are there?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
So the reference is to 'the' Father as in singuler, and 'the son' as in singuler, now as 'the son' in question is Yeshua who is flesh and blood, how many Fathers are there?

bernard (hug)


Bernie you are asking the same question Philip asked.

John 14
8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it will be enough for us.” 9 Yeshua replied to him, “Have I been with you so long without your knowing me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

These are the words of YHWH how much clearer does it need to be.

LeClerc
bnabernard

Still asking the same question, how many Fathers are there?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Still asking the same question, how many Fathers are there?

bernard (hug)


What is so complicated, did Y'shua say whoever has seen me has seen the Fathers, NO.

John 14
8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it will be enough for us.” 9 Yeshua replied to him, “Have I been with you so long without your knowing me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Bernie, when you look at Y'shua how many Fathers do YOU see.

LeClerc
bnabernard

Then you are saying that the Father is a man?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Then you are saying that the Father is a man?

bernard (hug)


Alas you appear to be still seeing what Philip saw.

LeClerc
bnabernard

I must be getting old, you must mean there are two Gods then,

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
I must be getting old, you must mean there are two Gods then,

bernard (hug)


No Bernie thats what the Watchtower teaches.

LeClerc
bnabernard

Thanks for that, what has it to do with me what the watchtower teaches my issue is with your teaching of two Gods?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Thanks for that, what has it to do with me what the watchtower teaches my issue is with your teaching of two Gods?

bernard (hug)


Bernie, where do you see two Gods, I see only ONE, His name is YHWH.

LeClerc
bnabernard

Well it's about time you settled down and made your mind up, just now it was Yeshua.

Unless you are saying Yeshua is the Father and God is YHWH making YHWH the Grandfather.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Well it's about time you settled down and made your mind up, just now it was Yeshua.

Unless you are saying Yeshua is the Father and God is YHWH making YHWH the Grandfather.

bernard (hug)


YHWH is Spirit, He brought forth the Logos out from within Himself.
YHWH is therefore Father and Son.

The Son was not begotten as flesh until born of the womb of the virgin Miryam and Miryam called him Y'shua. Which means Yah is Salvation.

Is that plain enough for you.

LeClerc
bnabernard

LeClerc wrote:
Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Well it's about time you settled down and made your mind up, just now it was Yeshua.

Unless you are saying Yeshua is the Father and God is YHWH making YHWH the Grandfather.

bernard (hug)


YHWH is Spirit, He brought forth the Logos out from within Himself.
YHWH is therefore Father and Son.

The Son was not begotten as flesh until born of the womb of the virgin Miryam and Miryam called him Y'shua. Which means Yah is Salvation.

Is that plain enough for you.

LeClerc


I see, so once he was born we had two Gods.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

bnabernard wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Well it's about time you settled down and made your mind up, just now it was Yeshua.

Unless you are saying Yeshua is the Father and God is YHWH making YHWH the Grandfather.

bernard (hug)


YHWH is Spirit, He brought forth the Logos out from within Himself.
YHWH is therefore Father and Son.

The Son was not begotten as flesh until born of the womb of the virgin Miryam and Miryam called him Y'shua. Which means Yah is Salvation.

Is that plain enough for you.

LeClerc


I see, so once he was born we had two Gods.

bernard (hug)


Then Bernie sadly, you do not see, in the same way Y'shua told  the teachers of the law that they did not see.

John 8
23 But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

LeClerc
bnabernard

Was YHWH not on earth then, there is only others that can come from above and not be part of this world, YHWH had been preseent in the Holy of Holies.
It would seem that you put contradictions into the mouth of your God when you say not of this world on the one hand while on the other say all thing were created through him and for him?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Was YHWH not on earth then, there is only others that can come from above and not be part of this world, YHWH had been preseent in the Holy of Holies.
It would seem that you put contradictions into the mouth of your God when you say not of this world on the one hand while on the other say all thing were created through him and for him?

bernard (hug)


The scriptures speak the truth Bernie

Colossians 1
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

It is you who is saying Y'shua did not speak the truth when he said

John 8
23 But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

LeClerc
bnabernard

LeClerc wrote
Quote:
Then Bernie sadly, you do not see, in the same way Y'shua told  the teachers of the law that they did not see.

John 8
23 But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”


Why would Yeshua say of another world.

Jhn 8:18   I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.  


Jhn 8:19   Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.  

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bi...Jhn&c=8&v=1&t=KJV#top

Now of course John 8 speaks more and is revealing in the son, but primarily he has emphasised another place than the world of the jews, and as he speaks elswhere of the glory he shared with the Father in the beginning then it's fitting he points out that he has come from the Father and that he comes from above, none less than any angel that shared Gods glory when they said ''let us mke man in our image''

For let's always be aware of the words that the son spoke concerning himself.


Luke 24
39 See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”
LeClerc

Morning Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
LeClerc wrote
Quote:
Then Bernie sadly, you do not see, in the same way Y'shua told  the teachers of the law that they did not see.

John 8
23 But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”


Why would Yeshua say of another world.

Jhn 8:18   I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.  


Jhn 8:19   Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.  

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bi...Jhn&c=8&v=1&t=KJV#top

Now of course John 8 speaks more and is revealing in the son, but primarily he has emphasised another place than the world of the jews, and as he speaks elswhere of the glory he shared with the Father in the beginning then it's fitting he points out that he has come from the Father and that he comes from above, none less than any angel that shared Gods glory when they said ''let us mke man in our image''

For let's always be aware of the words that the son spoke concerning himself.


Luke 24
39 See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”


Please don't twist things Bernie there is a difference between ''a spirit'' and ''spirit''.

In the same way there is a difference between ''a life'' and ''life''.

Please define ''a spirit'' and ''spirit''

LeClerc
bnabernard

And Thomas said, My lord and My God.

Is that anough?

bernard (hug)
Honey 56

bnabernard wrote:
And Thomas said, My lord and My God.

Is that anough?

bernard (hug)


Was Thomas guilty of worshipping and walking after another god besides YHWH?

or

Was Thomas quite correctly addressing tne Messiah Yeshua as 'his Lord and his God'

And  if he was wrong to refer to Him as 'my Lord and God', why did Yeshua not rebuke Thomas?

If Thomas was doing the right thing by recognising and worshipping Messiah Yeshua as 'his Lord and God', should we not do likewise?

Honey
bnabernard

Honey let me try to give you understanding, as when you understand Thomas then you make headway in understanding yourself.

LeClerc has asked for an explanation regarding spirit and spirit and life and life.
I will offer as an example a party, now a party has spirit, we might then refer to the spirit as atmosphere, now you can be at a party but not find it to your likinging it to your liking you might try to change the spirit of the party to one of your liking and if that fails you sit it out, that is to say you take no part in it.
God is like that with man, if the spirit of the man(party) is not to his liking He sits it out, He is present because it's His party but taken over by a different spirit (atmosphere) God becomes dead to the man and man dead to God.

Now if God is at a party (again man) and the party is of His liking then He is active and becomes alive to the man and the man alive to God.

How can a man hold a party that God comes alive in, by knowing what God requires, what He likes, after all you would not ask God to an orgy, or would you ask Him to sit down to a nice piece of pork with lobster starters.

Where a man is living without God he is doing his own thing and in the case of a man who says he has God yet expects God to fit in with his ways and his rules, the mans rules, he still lives without God.

Yeshua brought his Father alive in him and showed others how to bring the Father God alive in themselves, they become one spirit the spirit of living becomes one with the spirit of life and the spirit of life is Almighty God YHWH.

So when I say to you that you will understand when you find God inside yourself then you find what is there and strive for a harmony with what is there just as Yeshua instructed his disciples to become one with God the Father.

So look to the instructions of the son and worship the Father with all your very being for if in living you have not God then you have not life as God is life.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Morning Bernie

bnabernard wrote:

So look to the instructions of the son and worship the Father bernard (hug)


John 5
23 "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

LeClerc
bnabernard

Jhn 5:22   For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:  


Jhn 5:23   That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.  


Shaliach.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Morning Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Jhn 5:22   For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:  


Jhn 5:23   That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.  


Shaliach.

bernard (hug)


Psalm 96
12 Let the field be joyful, and all that is in it.
Then all the trees of the woods will rejoice before YHWH.
13 For He is coming, for He is coming to judge the earth.
He shall judge the world with righteousness,
And the peoples with His truth.


Who is coming to judge the earth, Y'shua The Messiah.

Who is coming to judge the earth YHWH.

Who is The Messiah Y'shua, YHWH manifest in the flesh.

Isaiah 33
21 But there the majestic YHWH will be for us
A place of broad rivers and streams,
In which no galley with oars will sail,
Nor majestic ships pass by
22 (For YWH is our Judge,
YHWH is our Lawgiver,
YHWH is our King;
He will save us);


No Shaliach Bernie, only YHWH.

LeClerc
bnabernard

but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

the Father which hath sent him
LeClerc

Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

the Father which hath sent him


YHWH is One, he is Father and Son, since the Logos came forth from within Himself.

Are you not a Son who is also a Father. What were you first Bernie, a Father or a Son, infact Bernie it was impossible for you to become a Father unless you were first a Son.

No one can listen to the shofar for you. You would never personally experience its call to repentance. No one can sit in the sukkah in your stead.

LeClerc
bnabernard

root and offspring of David

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
root and offspring of David

bernard (hug)


At last Bernie you understand, only YHWH can be both the root and offspring of David, the offspring by becoming flesh.

LeClerc
bnabernard

Nope only Adam can.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Nope only Adam can.

bernard (hug)


The root of Adam being ?

LeClerc
bnabernard

Did God create life?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Did God create life?

bernard (hug)


YHWH imparts life, since He is life, the eternal life.

Do you have a problem with scripture.

1 John 1
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us—

LeClerc
bnabernard

So is Adam YHWH?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
So is Adam YHWH?

bernard (hug)


The Spirit (ruwach) of life (chay) imparts the breath (neshamah) of His Spirit (ruwach) into that which He forms to become living nephesh. The breath  (neshamah) of the Spirit (ruwach becomes the spirit (ruwach) of the living Nephesh.

The first adam was not YHWH but YHWH is the root of the first adam, creating the body from the dust of the earth and imparting life. The neshamah of YHWH's ruwach is what gives life to adam who became a living nephesh.

LeClerc
bnabernard

And who is the offspring of David?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
And who is the offspring of David?

bernard (hug)


The Logos who became flesh, born of the womb of Mary.

LeClerc
bnabernard

And the law is kept in a receptacle and God sits on the judgment/mercy seat, God is life.


Exodus 25
22 There I will meet with you; and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are upon the ark of the testimony, I will speak to you about all that I will give you in commandment for the sons of Israel.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
And the law is kept in a receptacle and God sits on the judgment/mercy seat, God is life.


Exodus 25
22 There I will meet with you; and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are upon the ark of the testimony, I will speak to you about all that I will give you in commandment for the sons of Israel.

bernard (hug)


Was it not you who said.

bnabernard wrote:
Ah Leclerc was you not there when I advised Honey that she would understand when she found God within herself.
Have you not heard me refer to Yeshua as a shaliach?
Is there no understanding of the dead who bury the dead?

What was my point of starting a thread asking if God created life.

Oh I so twist scripture, or perhaps not eh.

Why would I refer to God in a box, understand that if you will, and I am not refering to Yeshua but the temple and the ark.

bernard (hug)


No one can listen to the shofar for you. You would never personally experience its call to repentance. No one can sit in the sukkah in your stead.

You seem to have a problem

LeClerc
bnabernard

bnabernard wrote:
but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

the Father which hath sent him
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
bnabernard wrote:
but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

the Father which hath sent him


As I said earlier you have a problem.

Revelation 16
7 And I heard the altar respond:“Yes, Lord God Almighty, true and just are your judgments.”

LeClerc
bnabernard

LeClerc has replied
Quote:
The Spirit (ruwach) of life (chay) imparts the breath (neshamah) of His Spirit (ruwach) into that which He forms to become living nephesh. The breath (neshamah) of the Spirit (ruwach becomes the spirit (ruwach) of the living Nephesh.

The first adam was not YHWH but YHWH is the root of the first adam, creating the body from the dust of the earth and imparting life. The neshamah of YHWH's ruwach is what gives life to adam who became a living nephesh.

……………………….

The Logos who became flesh, born of the womb of Mary.

………………………………………………

No one can listen to the shofar for you. You would never personally experience its call to repentance. No one can sit in the sukkah in your stead.

You seem to have a problem

.................................

Top all that with some flannle about a father not being a father untill he's been a son, and it's me who has the problem  
A wife would come in handy as well  

Sorry about that but what can you expect.
You have God the Holy spirit imparting life to the flesh He created from the dust.
Adam is formed.

The holy spirit imparts life to Eve and she gives birth to the second Adam.
Yeshua.

Yeshua is clothed in perishable skin inherited from the first Adam.
Yeshua crucifies the perishable skin through obedience.

Created Adam was born of imperishable flesh and was clothed in perishable flesh.(disobedience)
Yeshua was born of perishable flesh and clothed in imperishable flesh. (obedience)

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Morning Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
LeClerc has replied
Quote:
The Spirit (ruwach) of life (chay) imparts the breath (neshamah) of His Spirit (ruwach) into that which He forms to become living nephesh. The breath (neshamah) of the Spirit (ruwach becomes the spirit (ruwach) of the living Nephesh.

The first adam was not YHWH but YHWH is the root of the first adam, creating the body from the dust of the earth and imparting life. The neshamah of YHWH's ruwach is what gives life to adam who became a living nephesh.

……………………….

The Logos who became flesh, born of the womb of Mary.

………………………………………………

No one can listen to the shofar for you. You would never personally experience its call to repentance. No one can sit in the sukkah in your stead.

You seem to have a problem

.................................

Top all that with some flannle about a father not being a father untill he's been a son, and it's me who has the problem  
A wife would come in handy as well  

Sorry about that but what can you expect.
You have God the Holy spirit imparting life to the flesh He created from the dust.
Adam is formed.

The holy spirit imparts life to Eve and she gives birth to the second Adam.
Yeshua.

Yeshua is clothed in perishable skin inherited from the first Adam.
Yeshua crucifies the perishable skin through obedience.

Created Adam was born of imperishable flesh and was clothed in perishable flesh.(disobedience)
Yeshua was born of perishable flesh and clothed in imperishable flesh. (obedience)

bernard (hug)


Luke 2
41 Every year Yeshua’s parents went to Yerushalayim for the festival of Pesach. 42 When he was twelve years old, they went up for the festival, as custom required. 43 But after the festival was over, when his parents returned, Yeshua remained in Yerushalayim. They didn’t realize this; 44 supposing that he was somewhere in the caravan, they spent a whole day on the road before they began searching for him among their relatives and friends. 45 Failing to find him, they returned to Yerushalayim to look for him. 46 On the third day they found him — he was sitting in the Temple court among the rabbis, not only listening to them but questioning what they said; 47 and everyone who heard him was astonished at his insight and his responses. 48 When his parents saw him, they were shocked; and his mother said to him, “Son! Why have you done this to us? Your father and I have been terribly worried looking for you!” 49 He said to them, “Why did you have to look for me? Didn’t you know that I had to be concerning myself with my Father’s affairs?” 50 But they didn’t understand what he meant.

First question Bernie.

Why does Miryam say to Y'shua
48 When his parents saw him, they were shocked; and his mother said to him, “Son! Why have you done this to us? Your father and I have been terribly worried looking for you!”

When Miryam knows that Yosef is not her Son's Father.

Luke 1
26 In the sixth month, the angel Gavri’el was sent by God to a city in the Galil called Natzeret, 27 to a virgin engaged to a man named Yosef, of the house of David; the virgin’s name was Miryam. 28 Approaching her, the angel said, “Shalom, favored lady! Adonai is with you!” 29 She was deeply troubled by his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 The angel said to her, “Don’t be afraid, Miryam, for you have found favor with God. 31 Look! You will become pregnant, you will give birth to a son, and you are to name him Yeshua. 32 He will be great, he will be called Son of Ha‘Elyon. Adonai, God, will give him the throne of his forefather David; 33 and he will rule the House of Ya‘akov forever — there will be no end to his Kingdom.” 34 “How can this be,” asked Miryam of the angel, “since I am a virgin?” 35 The angel answered her,

“The Ruach HaKodesh will come over you,
the power of Ha‘Elyon will cover you.
Therefore the holy child born to you
will be called the Son of God.


When Y'shua reponds with
49 He said to them,“Why did you have to look for me? Didn’t you know that I had to be concerning myself with my Father’s affairs?”

Did Yosef and Miryam believe their Son was referring to Yosef's affairs ?

LeClerc
bnabernard

Morning LeClerc

What are you after now, an understanding of human nature or are you surreptitiously acknowledging that Yeshua is not YHWH?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Morning LeClerc

What are you after now, an understanding of human nature or are you surreptitiously acknowledging that Yeshua is not YHWH?

bernard (hug)


Just asking you a question which like other questios you are unable to answer.

Revelation 16
7 And I heard the altar respond:“Yes, Lord God Almighty, true and just are your judgments.”

Are these the judgments of the son ?

LeClerc
bnabernard

LeClerc

Your questions have been answered but because they are not what you want you call them unanswered, you fail to see when an answer is given.

The laws are laid and they are what bring about judgement, tolerance and mitigation that is a gift, however there is a finality that comes at the end when all aspects of tolerance and mitigation have been exhausted, this you will only understand when you comprehend the love of God YHWH.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
LeClerc

Your questions have been answered but because they are not what you want you call them unanswered, you fail to see when an answer is given.

The laws are laid and they are what bring about judgement, tolerance and mitigation that is a gift, however there is a finality that comes at the end when all aspects of tolerance and mitigation have been exhausted, this you will only understand when you comprehend the love of God YHWH.

bernard (hug)


I appear to have missed your answer to the following question for which I apologize. Maybe out of love you could repeat it for me.

Revelation 16
7 And I heard the altar respond:“Yes, Lord God Almighty, true and just are your judgments.”

Are these the judgments of the son ?

Thank you.

LeClerc
bnabernard

Quote:
Yes, Lord God Almighty, true and just are your judgments.”


Has my love not instructed you that the son is of one mind with the Father in all things, then I must be suffering from amnesia.

So if the son is one with the Father and the Father is one with the son and more than this, if you are one with the Father and the son and your neighbour one also then all will see the Judgements of the Father as true and just, and if the Father so says they will act upon and execute the judgements as they are empowered to.

No disagreement, no discord, loving understanding.
However it's not hard to remember that the son does that which the Father shews him, having proved faithful and true.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Jhn 5:22   For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:  


Jhn 5:23   That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.  


Shaliach.

bernard (hug)


In His mind does The Father Judge man ?

LeClerc
bnabernard

LeClerc

If you get with the programe you will come to understand what law is and how man judges himself.
Thereafter mitigating circumstances and thereafter Judgement.

So the mind of God, what can you say regarding judgement other than He is responsible for the law/s, they are perfect.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Morning Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
LeClerc

If you get with the programe you will come to understand what law is and how man judges himself.
Thereafter mitigating circumstances and thereafter Judgement.

So the mind of God, what can you say regarding judgement other than He is responsible for the law/s, they are perfect.

bernard (hug)


Revelation 16
7 And I heard the altar respond:“Yes, Lord God Almighty, true and just are your judgments.”

Are these the judgments of the Logos ?

Thank you.

LeClerc
bnabernard

I refer to my other answer, are you  suggesting something Greek about the judgements?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Morning Bernie.

bnabernard wrote:
LeClerc

If you get with the programe you will come to understand what law is and how man judges himself.
Thereafter mitigating circumstances and thereafter Judgement.

So the mind of God, what can you say regarding judgement other than He is responsible for the law/s, they are perfect.

bernard (hug)


Referring to your other answer, Does YHWH have one mind or two ?

LeClerc
bnabernard

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=132&t=KJV#14
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
LeClerc

If you get with the programe you will come to understand what law is and how man judges himself.
Thereafter mitigating circumstances and thereafter Judgement.

So the mind of God, what can you say regarding judgement other than He is responsible for the law/s, they are perfect.

bernard (hug)


Revelation 16
7 And I heard the altar respond:“Yes, Lord God Almighty, true and just are your judgments.”

Are these the judgments of the Logos ?

Thank you.

LeClerc
bnabernard

Quote:
Referring to your other answer, Does YHWH have one mind or two ?
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Quote:
Referring to your other answer, Does YHWH have one mind or two ?


So you now understand that the judegments of the Logos are the judgements of

Revelation 16
7 And I heard the altar respond:“Yes, Lord God Almighty, true and just are your judgments.”


LeClerc
bnabernard

LeClerc wrote:
Morning Bernie.

bnabernard wrote:
LeClerc

If you get with the programe you will come to understand what law is and how man judges himself.
Thereafter mitigating circumstances and thereafter Judgement.

So the mind of God, what can you say regarding judgement other than He is responsible for the law/s, they are perfect.

bernard (hug)


Referring to your other answer, Does YHWH have one mind or two ?

LeClerc
LeClerc

Morning Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Morning Bernie.

bnabernard wrote:
LeClerc

If you get with the programe you will come to understand what law is and how man judges himself.
Thereafter mitigating circumstances and thereafter Judgement.

So the mind of God, what can you say regarding judgement other than He is responsible for the law/s, they are perfect.

bernard (hug)


Referring to your other answer, Does YHWH have one mind or two ?

LeClerc


John 4
24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Is not the mind of The Spirit the mind of Y'shua ?

LeClerc
bnabernard

Define spirit as you understand it in the case of man and God.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Define spirit as you understand it in the case of man and God.

bernard (hug)


The Spirit (ruwach), with regard to YHWH, is the Eternel Spirit (ruwach) (Eternal life) who imparted the breath (neshamah) of His Spirit (ruwach) to the flesh of Adam who became a living nephesh.

The spirit of Adam is the neshamah of the eternal ruwach.

LeClerc
bnabernard

LeClerc wrote:
Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Define spirit as you understand it in the case of man and God.

bernard (hug)


The Spirit (ruwach), with regard to YHWH, is the Eternel Spirit (ruwach) (Eternal life) who imparted the breath (neshamah) of His Spirit (ruwach) to the flesh of Adam who became a living nephesh.

The spirit of Adam is the neshamah of the eternal ruwach.

LeClerc


Can we have that again in English.

Just so that we all know what we are speaking about, you know, avoiding confusion  

bernard (hug)

       nglreturns.myfreeforum.org Forum Index -> Bible study Page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3
Create your own free forum | Buy a domain to use with your forum