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genghiscant

Israel v Iran.

From today's papers it looks like Israel will attack Iran's nuclear capability within 2 months. Another war with its roots deep in the soil of religion.
The Boyg

Re: Israel v Iran.

genghiscant wrote:
Another war with its roots deep in the soil of religion.


Another post that grossly oversimplifies the complex socio-political background of the current situation.  
Jim

Re: Israel v Iran.

I'd say "a plague on both their houses."
Iran is developing the bomb. It doesn't matter what they do, or say, that's what the U.S, say, so Iran WILL develop the bomb, if only to spite the Yanks.
So America - justly, IMO, rants and threatens the Iranin government.
But, master of hypocrisy, the U.S. says, or does nothing about Israel, which has had nuclear capability for many years.
Both Iran and Israel are in breach of International Law.
The villian is America, for being so one-sided.
genghiscant

Quote:
Another post that grossly oversimplifies the complex socio-political background of the current situation
.

Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini called Israel an "enemy of Islam" &  “this regime occupying Jerusalem should vanish from the pages of time”.
I would agree that the current situation is complex but the roots are in religion.
Boss Cat

The roots are in tribalism, humans want to belong and one way of doing that is by excluding others.  Humans do this, but if you are secure you can handle the other.  But fear, poverty and unfairness, perceived or real are what fan the conflict.

Sorry, you aren't immune; neither am I. If I am all sweet and liberal now it's because I feel pretty secure.
genghiscant

Quote:
The roots are in tribalism


Yes, the tribalism of religion. Muslim v Judaism.
Jim

A bit simplistic, surely?
Since Israeli politics are dominated by secular parties, albeit certen Orthodox Jewish parties also have seats in the Parliament, while the growing ultra-Orthodox Jews do not take part in piolitics, or even, in many case, recognise the state of Israel.
On the other side, while the Shi'ite religios fundamentalists do hold power, that grip is not as secure as it was even five years ago, Iranian governance is dominated by factions, and many of these are very concerned by the younger generations who are much less inclined toward their fundamentalist  leadership.
The Boyg

Jim wrote:
A bit simplistic, surely?
Since Israeli politics are dominated by secular parties, albeit certen Orthodox Jewish parties also have seats in the Parliament, while the growing ultra-Orthodox Jews do not take part in piolitics, or even, in many case, recognise the state of Israel.
On the other side, while the Shi'ite religios fundamentalists do hold power, that grip is not as secure as it was even five years ago, Iranian governance is dominated by factions, and many of these are very concerned by the younger generations who are much less inclined toward their fundamentalist  leadership.


Plus, despite all the public anti-Israeli rhetoric, the Iranians are actually deep in their cold war with the Saudis in places like Bahrain to try and determine who can wield the most influence over the arab middle-east. You only have to be aware of their threat to close the Straits of Hormuz to see this (presuming that one takes more than a superficial interest in world news, of course).
Jim

What has worried me are the 'bible-belters' in the U.S. who've never been further than their state border, but try to vote into power anyone - usually a Republican - who will support Israel at all costs, not because of any pro-Semitic views, but to try and usher in the second Coming.
Boss Cat

And of course, one of the problems is young men.  Sorry but it is.
Lexilogio

Re: Israel v Iran.

genghiscant wrote:
From today's papers it looks like Israel will attack Iran's nuclear capability within 2 months. Another war with its roots deep in the soil of religion.


That is an over simplification and show that you, like many others, have fallen for the same tripe tha tthe rulers spout.

The Israeli leadership is about political power, not religion. It might be a Jewish state, but that is used as a rhetorical argument for actions which would happen anyway. The same goes for Iran. It's abou amajinadad's need to retain power, which he does through the appeal to anti Western and nuclear nationalism.

Religion is not the cause, it is the excuse, used to hide the cause.
genghiscant

Iran is an Islamic republic & has a theocratic constitution. The supreme leader of Iran is Ayatollah Seyed Ali Hoseyni Khāmene’i. He is  Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces, controls the military intelligence and security operations; and has sole power to declare war or peace. He appoints the head of the Judiciary, who in turn appoints the head of the Supreme Court and the chief public prosecutor. It is a crime against the Koran to be a homosexual in Iran & if caught results in the death penalty.

Call me old fashioned if you like, but it seems pretty religious to me.
Boss Cat

Look Genghis, if you said one of the bad things about religious belief is that it allows some people to experience bullying from authority figures because they are threatened with unimaginable torment if they do not do what authority wants I'd agree with you.  It's a fair point.  All human products can be abused and misused and organised religion is is one of them; it's unique nastiness is the level of control it can exert by not actually doing something yourself but by threatening the big, unseen, vicious friend.  

Not only a religious thing, of course, there are many who use these ways to bully and control.  Nasty tactics, used by violent bullies and loan sharks among others.  But religious belief is pretty well set - uniquely well set - for that type of emotional exploitation and bullying by proxy.  Not only a religious thing, of course, there are many horrible ways to bully and control.

But if you are saying oho the whole Israel Iran thing is rooted in religion is to ignore how tribes work, how governments work, how power is brokered, even how people work.  This is more a case of groups justifying their baser actions in ideology, which could be theist, anti-theist or completely secular.  And young men's aggression too.
genghiscant

I'm absolutely sure that there are millions of ordinary people in Iran who are decent honest & nonviolent. What we are talking about is the Iranian government & leadership. Iran is an Islamic republic that has said that Israel & all of its people should be wiped from the face of the earth. It hasn't said the same thing about the Saudis because the Saudis are Islamic. It's obvious that the basis of all this is religious.
Boss Cat

OK so the violent people I come across who have been brought up in nihilistic and chaotic households by people who think religion is bollocks - and I have met such people, lots of them - are violent because they don't have a religion.  It's obvious, they aren't religious and they are violent, what moredo you need to know?
The Boyg

genghiscant wrote:
It hasn't said the same thing about the Saudis because the Saudis are Islamic.


And yet it is the Saudis whom the Iranians are engaged in proxy wars against in places like Iraq and Bahrain.

All the anti-Israeli stuff is rhetoric and sabre-rattling.

There is a real, bloody power struggle going on in the middle-east and it's between Iran and Saudi Arabia, not Iran and Israel.

All the denouncement of Israel is just to win the hearts and minds of the arab man on the street to the Iranian cause.
genghiscant

Quote:
All the anti-Israeli stuff is rhetoric and sabre-rattling.


According to the intelligence services around the world, the Israelis are are about to unleash a lot more than rhetoric. What then?
gone

Jim wrote:
What has worried me are the 'bible-belters' in the U.S. who've never been further than their state border, but try to vote into power anyone - usually a Republican - who will support Israel at all costs, not because of any pro-Semitic views, but to try and usher in the second Coming.


Spot on, Jim!
cyberman

Re: Israel v Iran.

genghiscant wrote:
Another war with its roots deep in the soil of religion.


It is often claimed that religion causes most major wars. That is of course not true. In the case of troubles concerning Israel, though, it is difficult to deny. Without the religious factors, Israel would probably never have been created, and relations with neighbouring nations would not be so difficult. It is not the only causal factor of course, but it is there.
Shrub Dweller

genghiscant wrote:
Quote:
The roots are in tribalism


Yes, the tribalism of religion. Muslim v Judaism.

It's not that simply. There are different factions within these two groups that don't agree with their fellow believer, and then on the large picture is the old cold war scores flaring up. The Middle East is a tinder box waiting to ignite.
The Boyg

I blame the Romans.
genghiscant

Quote:
I blame the Romans.


Pah! The Romans! What did they ever do for us!
Lexilogio

genghiscant wrote:
Quote:
I blame the Romans.


Pah! The Romans! What did they ever do for us!


Apart from underfloor heating, sanitation.....
genghiscant

Quote:
There are different factions within these two groups that don't agree with their fellow believer


It's still religion though.



Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"
cyberman

[quote="genghiscant:64315"]
Quote:
There are different factions within these two groups that don't agree with their fellow believer


It's still religion though.

Some of the time. Sometimes two Jewish Israelis can disagree with each other about something which is nothing to do with religion.
genghiscant

Quote:
Quote:
There are different factions within these two groups that don't agree with their fellow believer



Quote:
It's still religion though.


Quote:
Some of the time. Sometimes two Jewish Israelis can disagree with each other about something which is nothing to do with religion.


Shrub was talking about factions. I would have thought religious factions mostly argue about religion.
cyberman

genghiscant wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
There are different factions within these two groups that don't agree with their fellow believer



Quote:
It's still religion though.


Quote:
Some of the time. Sometimes two Jewish Israelis can disagree with each other about something which is nothing to do with religion.


Shrub was talking about factions. I would have thought religious factions mostly argue about religion.


That was me, not Shrub. Not all Jews are religious fanatics, are they?
genghiscant

Shrub Dweller wrote:
Quote:
It's not that simply. There are different factions within these two groups that don't agree with their fellow believer, and then on the large picture is the old cold war scores flaring up. The Middle East is a tinder box waiting to ignite.
Shrub Dweller

genghiscant wrote:
Quote:
There are different factions within these two groups that don't agree with their fellow believer


It's still religion though.

And politics.
Shrub Dweller

genghiscant wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
There are different factions within these two groups that don't agree with their fellow believer



Quote:
It's still religion though.


Quote:
Some of the time. Sometimes two Jewish Israelis can disagree with each other about something which is nothing to do with religion.


Shrub was talking about factions. I would have thought religious factions mostly argue about religion.

My response was to your Muslim vs Judaism post. I'm just saying there are splits within these religions. With the Muslims it tends to be more on religious grounds where as in Israel some of it is more political.
genghiscant

Quote:
My response was to your Muslim vs Judaism post. I'm just saying there are splits within these religions. With the Muslims it tends to be more on religious grounds where as in Israel some of it is more political.


I've no doubt that there are political schisms in Iran & Israel. My point however, was that the main problem between, Iran v Israel, is religious. It may be one sided or not, but it's there.
cymrudynnion

Re: Israel v Iran.

genghiscant wrote:
From today's papers it looks like Israel will attack Iran's nuclear capability within 2 months. Another war with its roots deep in the soil of religion.
Considering the state of Israel has only existed since 1948 hardly steeped in religion.
genghiscant

Quote:
Considering the state of Israel has only existed since 1948 hardly steeped in religion.


Israel is a Jewish state, its main religion is Judaism which is much older than yours.
cymrudynnion

genghiscant wrote:
Quote:
Considering the state of Israel has only existed since 1948 hardly steeped in religion.


Israel is a Jewish state, its main religion is Judaism which is much older than yours.
And the scrpiture of Judaism form the o.T. or so i am tld
Shrub Dweller

genghiscant wrote:
Quote:
My response was to your Muslim vs Judaism post. I'm just saying there are splits within these religions. With the Muslims it tends to be more on religious grounds where as in Israel some of it is more political.


I've no doubt that there are political schisms in Iran & Israel. My point however, was that the main problem between, Iran v Israel, is religious. It may be one sided or not, but it's there.

The thing is both Islam and Judaism are both spiritual and political systems. They cater for and govern the day to day lives of their believers aswell as their spiritual needs, so I don't think the issue is that clear cut. But if you are saying there is God in there somewhere then yes this is a driving force in the issue.
genghiscant

Quote:
The thing is both Islam and Judaism are both spiritual and political systems. They cater for and govern the day to day lives of their believers aswell as their spiritual needs, so I don't think the issue is that clear cut. But if you are saying there is God in there somewhere then yes this is a driving force in the issue.


If Iran was a Hebrew state, then it wouldn't be calling for the annihilation of Israel. Religion is the driving force.
The Boyg

genghiscant wrote:
Quote:
The thing is both Islam and Judaism are both spiritual and political systems. They cater for and govern the day to day lives of their believers aswell as their spiritual needs, so I don't think the issue is that clear cut. But if you are saying there is God in there somewhere then yes this is a driving force in the issue.


If Iran was a Hebrew state, then it wouldn't be calling for the annihilation of Israel. Religion is the driving force.


Being of the same religion never prevented states from going to war with each other in the past.
genghiscant

Quote:
Being of the same religion never prevented states from going to war with each other in the past.


Quite right, but the friction between Iran & Israel is religious. Do you deny it?
Shrub Dweller

genghiscant wrote:
Quote:
The thing is both Islam and Judaism are both spiritual and political systems. They cater for and govern the day to day lives of their believers aswell as their spiritual needs, so I don't think the issue is that clear cut. But if you are saying there is God in there somewhere then yes this is a driving force in the issue.


If Iran was a Hebrew state, then it wouldn't be calling for the annihilation of Israel. Religion is the driving force.

Well no, because then they would be included in it i.e. they would be wanting to destroy themselves in effect. Israel also includes the people and the faith aswell as the land. But I take your point.

Mine being that not all Iranians want this, as some would like to be part of the western modern world (remember the Arab type spring protests after the elections). Therefore, your comment also refers to the government of the day i.e. politics. A politics shaped by their Shia faith.

And if Iran did destroy Israel would they stop there ? Iran is Shia and many of the pro-Western world Arabs are Sunni, so ......... If you are following the troubles in Syria you will understand the religious and political games going on there, which echo my sentiments on this thread.
genghiscant

If you take religion out of the equation, things become much simpler. Then it's just tribal, which is bad enough.
The Boyg

genghiscant wrote:
Quote:
Being of the same religion never prevented states from going to war with each other in the past.


Quite right, but the friction between Iran & Israel is religious. Do you deny it?


Yes, I do deny it.

I think that it's mostly political with a veneer of religion for the simple man in the street.
Shrub Dweller

genghiscant wrote:
If you take religion out of the equation, things become much simpler. Then it's just tribal, which is bad enough.

If you take politics out of the equation things become much simpler. Then all you are left with is a load of pesky kids biting and scratching.
genghiscant

Quote:
genghiscant wrote:
If you take religion out of the equation, things become much simpler. Then it's just tribal, which is bad enough.


Quote:
If you take politics out of the equation things become much simpler. Then all you are left with is a load of pesky kids biting and scratching.


If you take politics out of the equation in the Middle East does this help with the Sunni v Shia situation?
Lexilogio

genghiscant wrote:
Quote:
genghiscant wrote:
If you take religion out of the equation, things become much simpler. Then it's just tribal, which is bad enough.


Quote:
If you take politics out of the equation things become much simpler. Then all you are left with is a load of pesky kids biting and scratching.


If you take politics out of the equation in the Middle East does this help with the Sunni v Shia situation?


The Sunni v Shia situation was politics. There was very little religion in that. It was about who controlled Mohammed's legacy.
genghiscant

Quote:
The Sunni v Shia situation was politics. There was very little religion in that. It was about who controlled Mohammed's legacy.


I think the history is irrelevant to the situation today. Lines have been drawn in the sand, Sunni one side & Shia on the other. It's religious. Iran v Israel is religious.
Shrub Dweller

genghiscant wrote:
Quote:
genghiscant wrote:
If you take religion out of the equation, things become much simpler. Then it's just tribal, which is bad enough.


Quote:
If you take politics out of the equation things become much simpler. Then all you are left with is a load of pesky kids biting and scratching.


If you take politics out of the equation in the Middle East does this help with the Sunni v Shia situation?

I meant aswell as, but it was a little tongue in cheek.

However, Islam is politics because the Quran sets out how people should live and work, and run their lives. God is in there because when it was formed God was a given, like if I formed a country today it would have a flag and everything. The split that created the Sunni and Shia is essentially a political one and just greed for power and dominance; who is the rightful leader. God is just a sideline in all this.
Lexilogio

genghiscant wrote:
Quote:
The Sunni v Shia situation was politics. There was very little religion in that. It was about who controlled Mohammed's legacy.


I think the history is irrelevant to the situation today. Lines have been drawn in the sand, Sunni one side & Shia on the other. It's religious. Iran v Israel is religious.


But the Sunni /Shia split is more political / tribal. I don't see a religious aspect - although I will admit to not being an expert on the modern differences.

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