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Honey 56

Israel. God's chosen

What do the scriptures really teach about Israel, God’s chosen people?
Are they the same today as they were in Old and New Testament times?
Does the covenant that YHWH made with His people still stand today,
Or has another group of people taken the place of the original Israel in YHWH’s affections.
Is the covenant now for another group of people?

Honey
bnabernard

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%27nei_Noah

bernard (hug)
Honey 56

bnabernard wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%27nei_Noah

bernard (hug)


Thank you for the link Bernard, but I wanted to explore what the scriptures actually teach.

honey
Ketty



Honey, just to clarify, do you mean the Old Testament Law, or the New Covenant in Christ Jesus?

http://www.barnabasministry.com

    The Future Covenant

    The final covenant discussed in the Old Testament is the one that was to be a future covenant. Included in the references are New Testament passages showing Christianity in fulfilment of the new covenant. Its terms are as follows:

       Nature

           Eternal- Isa 61:8, Jer 32:40, 50:5, Eze 16:59-62, 37:26, Jude 1:3
           Spiritual- Isa 55:3, 1Pt 2:5, Mt 6:21
           Transcends worldly divisions- Isa 61:7-9, Col 3:11
           After destruction of Babylon- Jer 32:37-40, 50:2-5, Lk 3:1
           Nation of Israel destroyed- Hos 2:1- 3:5, Col 2:13-17, 1Pt 2:9
           Gentiles included- Isa 42:1-7, 49:1-8, Eph 2:11-13
           Embodied in the Servant, the Son of David- Isa 42:1-7, 49:1-8, 55:3, Mt 26:28, Mk 14:24, Lk 22:20, Col 1:22
           A result of God's faithfulness- Isa 61:8, Rom 1:2
           Fulfils covenant to Adam- Hos 6:7, Gen 3:15, Lk 11:22, Rom 5:12-19
           Fulfils covenant to Abraham- Hos 2:1-23, Lk 1:73
           Fulfils covenant of the Law- Hos 2:1-23, Col 2:13-17, Mt 27:51
           Fulfils Levitical covenant- Isa 61:6-8, Heb 8:6
           Fulfils covenant to David- Is 55:3, Eze 34:23-26, 36:24-28, Hos 3:5, Lk 1:69-71

       Entering into the covenant

           Acknowledge the need- Isa 55:1-3, Jer 50:4-5, Lk 15:18
           Come to God- Dt 4:29-31, Isa 55:1-3, Jer 50:4-5, Lk 15:18
           Repentance- Isa 55:1-7, 59:20-21, Lk 5:32
           Humility- Lev 26:40-41, Mt 5:3, Jas 4:6
           Confess sin- Lev 26:40-41, Jer 14:20, Lk 15:18
           Pay for sin- Lev 26:40-41, Mt 16:26, 26:28, Rom 6:3-4
           Sins forgiven- Jer 31:34, Eze 16:59-62, Col 1:14, 2:13
           Redemption- Isa 49:1-8, Col 1:14
           A distinctive people- Is 61:8-9, Ac 5:13
           Possess Spirit- Isa 59:20-21, Jer 31:33, 1Co 6:19
           Possess God's words- Isa 59:20-21, Jer 31:33, Jn 15:7, Col 3:16
           Ashamed of sin- Eze 16:59-63, Rom 6:21
           Obedience- Eze 37:24, Heb 5:9, 1Jn 2:3
           Will know God- Jer 31:33, 2Th 1:8, 1Jn 5:20, Jn 1:18
           Will fear God- Jer 32:40, Ps 25:14, 2Co 5:11
           Will not turn away- Jer 32:40, Jn 10:27-29
           Will be a new priesthood- Isa 61:6-8, 1Pt 2:9
           Peace- Isa 54:10, Eze 34:20-30, 37:26, Hos 2:18, Col 1:20, Rom 5:1
           Joy- Isa 61:7-8, Rom 5:2, 1Pt 1:8    
           Receive God's blessings- Is 61:8-9, Eze 32:40, Rom 8:28
           Unity- Jer 32:38, Eph 4:13
           Growth- Isa 61:8-9, Eze 37:26, Mt 28:19

       Eternal results

           Life- Is 55:3, Jn 17:3
           With God- Eze 37:26-28, 1Th 4:17
           In heaven- Jer 32:40-41, Eze 37:25, Jn 14:2, Mk 13:31
           Benefit from God's goodness- Jer 32:40-41, Hos 2:1-23, Re 22:5

    It is exciting to see how specific the Old Testament is in foreseeing certain aspects of the new covenant of Jesus and the church. The early church did not yet have the New Testament and had only the Old Testament to understand their faith. Yet the future covenant described so many aspects of life in the church age.


The old is replaced with the new.   Thank you Lord!  
Farmer Geddon

"The old is replaced with the new."

Not according to the Followers of HaShem.

They are perfectly within their rights to ignore this so-called Christian "new covenant" as it doesn't apply to them.
LeClerc

Hi Ketty

Ketty wrote:

The early church


How long to you believe the church been in existence Ketty ?

Acts 7 KJV
38This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

How would Y'shua's hearers have understood Y'shua's words in the following passage ?

Matther 18 KJV
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Honey, excellent topic much to discuss here sis.

LeClerc
Farmer Geddon

Hang on - You are quoting Acts and 'Matther'.

None of these Authors had meet their Christ, in fact they had never even seen or heard what they were reporting but relying on hearsay, not even recent hearsay but decades old if not generations old hearsay.

(Don't forget both writings are Pseudepigrapha: From the Greek: ψευδής, pseudēs,"lying" or "false" and ἐπιγραφή, epigraphē, "name" or "inscription" or "ascription"; falsely attributed works, texts whose claimed authorship is unfounded.)

So they are worse than hearsay, they are intentional false statements!!

So negates any claim that the writings contain any "truth".
Honey 56

Ketty wrote:



The old is replaced with the new.   Thank you Lord!  


Thank you so much for your post Ketty  

I really want to look through all of the scriptures you have posted, great!!!

Honey
Honey 56

LeClerc wrote:


Honey, excellent topic much to discuss here sis.

LeClerc


Hi LeClerc,

Thank you.

I think you are probably on the same wave length as myself on this teaching, but I will try to explain what I am wondering about.

Some members of Christ's body today and some cults believe that they have taken the place of God's chosen people (As Isreal) in His affections.

Does a new covenant necessarily have to replace an old one?

Has YHWH turned His back on the descendents of Abrahm, Isaac and Jacob?

Are there two covenants for two different groups of people, or are all equal in YHWHs sight now?

Are YHWH's promises ever revocable?

What does YHWH think about Israel?

In other words, I am over my haed with this one, HELP!!!

Honey
Farmer Geddon

What!!

Ketty posted ZERO scripture - just a bad C&P with absolutely no substance...

In fact the website she linked to is a contradiction to what she posted: http://www.barnabasministry.com/

God you're so gullible....
Farmer Geddon

Again I have to ask - WTF is this so-called "new covenant" you are dribbling down your chin?

I'm guessing it's in the Greek bible you love so much, but not in the Hebrew Bible "Jesus" would have followed?
Honey 56

Farmer Geddon wrote:
What!!

Ketty posted ZERO scripture - just a bad C&P with absolutely no substance...

In fact the website she linked to is a contradiction to what she posted: http://www.barnabasministry.com/

God you're so gullible....


If gullible means open minded and willing to learn, then yes, guilty as charged.  

I am also looking at your posts with the same objective.

Honey
Farmer Geddon

So go then - How does Jesus the Jew fit in with Christ the Greek?
Honey 56

Farmer Geddon wrote:
So go then - How does Jesus the Jew fit in with Christ the Greek?


Christ Jesus is an Israelite, a direct descendent of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
I have never heard Him described as a Greek, to do so would be a grave error. Christ Jesus loved the Greeks, He died for them, but He was not of Greek descent.

Honey
Powwow

I believe that the modern state of Israel is playing a central role in prophesy. Chosen people? Well even if chosen one must accept. A Jew who dies rejecting Christ will face the same fate as an atheist.
Then we have the 144,000 in Rev. 7, I believe these people to be redeemed Jews, missionaries, who will lead many Jews and Gentiles to Christ. These 144,000 will be sealed by God, protected from the tribulation while they do their work for God.
Farmer Geddon

Honey 56 wrote:
Farmer Geddon wrote:
So go then - How does Jesus the Jew fit in with Christ the Greek?


Christ Jesus is an Israelite, a direct descendent of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
I have never heard Him described as a Greek, to do so would be a grave error. Christ Jesus loved the Greeks, He died for them, but He was not of Greek descent.

Honey


Jesus was an "Israelite" agreed.

The "Christ" is a pure Greek concept... hence "Jesus" wouldn't recognise the description, as its a title not a name..
Honey 56

pow wow wrote:
I believe that the modern state of Israel is playing a central role in prophesy. Chosen people? Well even if chosen one must accept. A Jew who dies rejecting Christ will face the same fate as an atheist.
Then we have the 144,000 in Rev. 7, I believe these people to be redeemed Jews, missionaries, who will lead many Jews and Gentiles to Christ. These 144,000 will be sealed by God, protected from the tribulation while they do their work for God.


Thank you PowWow.
There are also the faithful Jews who died awaiting their Messiah, they will be raised to life n the last days.

Who do you think are referred to as 'Israel' in the new testament?

Honey  
Farmer Geddon

They are also referred to as "Israel" in the old covenant:  So in context - are the Jews no longer HaShems' chosen people in your opinion?
Honey 56

Farmer Geddon wrote:
They are also referred to as "Israel" in the old covenant:  So in context - are the Jews no longer HaShems' chosen people in your opinion?


Yes I believe that Israel (the descendents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) are still Gods chosen, I personally believe that God's promise to them are irrevocable and I also believe that we as Gentiles can be adopted into God's family or ingrafted into the natural Olive tree by accepting Christs work at Calvary.

I also believe that All of Israel will be saved.

I believe I owe my salvation to them as well as to God Almighty, because of his judgements on them, He has shown kindness to us, but I also believe that that kindnesss will and is being returned to Israel in YHWH's good time.

The reason I believe this is because of Romans chapter 11.
Also  because of all of the prophesy that is still and has been in the past, fullfilled concerning them.

But I am also aware that what I believe may not necessarily be true, what counts is what is taught by the scriptures and that is what I would like to explore.

Honey
Powwow

Hello Honey 56,
I see no place in the NT where the church is called Israel. Israel is used either to mean the nation, the people or the believers in the nation. I don't know of any verse that calls the church or the Gentile believer, Israel.
Perhaps somebody out there knows of some verses in the NT that do?
Honey 56

pow wow wrote:
Hello Honey 56,
I see no place in the NT where the church is called Israel. Israel is used either to mean the nation, the people or the believers in the nation. I don't know of any verse that calls the church or the Gentile believer, Israel.
Perhaps somebody out there knows of some verses in the NT that do?


Hi Pow Wow,
Agreed    

I would like to see these verses of scriptures too.

Honey
gone

Israel is not special just a state like any other, and should be treated as such.
Farmer Geddon

So Jesus as a believer in the Israelite God. Would just scratch his head at the NT, because it would all just be Greek to him?
Powwow

Hi Willow! Israel is special and so are you!
Honey 56

Farmer Geddon wrote:
So Jesus as a believer in the Israelite God. Would just scratch his head at the NT, because it would all just be Greek to him?


Yeshua is YHWH the Israelite God. He fullfilled all of the old testament scriptures concerning this.

Honey
Farmer Geddon

I cannot deny that the Jews think that YHWH is the Israelite God, or that it fulfilled all of the old testament scriptures concerning this.

What about this "christ" you keep chundering on about?

Is it included in the "Old Covenant"?
LeClerc

Hi Farmer

Farmer Geddon wrote:
Honey 56 wrote:
Farmer Geddon wrote:
So go then - How does Jesus the Jew fit in with Christ the Greek?


Christ Jesus is an Israelite, a direct descendent of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
I have never heard Him described as a Greek, to do so would be a grave error. Christ Jesus loved the Greeks, He died for them, but He was not of Greek descent.

Honey


Jesus was an "Israelite" agreed.

The "Christ" is a pure Greek concept... hence "Jesus" wouldn't recognise the description, as its a title not a name..


Indeed Farmer it is a Title not a Name.

However

In the Septuagint Daniel 9 verses 25 and 26.

What is the Greek word that the translators used for the word מָשִׁיחַ transliterated as mashiyach.

Mashiyach means Anointed One

LeClerc
LeClerc

Hi Pow wow

pow wow wrote:
Hello Honey 56,
I see no place in the NT where the church is called Israel. Israel is used either to mean the nation, the people or the believers in the nation. I don't know of any verse that calls the church or the Gentile believer, Israel.
Perhaps somebody out there knows of some verses in the NT that do?


Who is the church in following passage from the NT ?

Acts 7 KJV
38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

LeClerc
Farmer Geddon

Re: Israel. God's chosen

Honey 56 wrote:
What do the scriptures really teach about Israel, God’s chosen people?
Are they the same today as they were in Old and New Testament times?
Does the covenant that YHWH made with His people still stand today,
Or has another group of people taken the place of the original Israel in YHWH’s affections.
Is the covenant now for another group of people?

Honey


To answer you original question:

No it is Not
Farmer Geddon

LeClerc wrote:
.
What is the Greek word that the translators used for the word מָשִׁיחַ transliterated as mashiyach.

Mashiyach means Anointed One

LeClerc


Indeed מָשַׁח means to smear, anoint, spread a liquid, consecrate.


But not the same as the Greek translation of Christos (Χριστός).

Even you, with your limited understanding of Koine and Hebrew can see that?
LeClerc

Hi Farmer

Farmer Geddon wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
.
What is the Greek word that the translators used for the word מָשִׁיחַ transliterated as mashiyach.

Mashiyach means Anointed One

LeClerc


Indeed מָשַׁח means to smear, anoint, spread a liquid, consecrate.


But not the same as the Greek translation of Christos (Χριστός).

Even you, with your limited understanding of Koine and Hebrew can see that?


In the Septuagint Daniel 9 verses 25 and 26.

What is the Greek word that the translators used for the word מָשִׁיחַ transliterated as mashiyach

9:25 καὶ γνώσῃ καὶ συνήσεις ἀπὸ ἐξόδου λόγου τοῦ ἀποκριθῆναι καὶ τοῦ οἰκοδομῆσαι Ιερουσαλημ ἕως χριστοῦ ἡγουμένου ἑβδομάδες ἑπτὰ καὶ ἑβδομάδες ἑξήκοντα δύο καὶ ἐπιστρέψει καὶ οἰκοδομηθήσεται πλατεῖα καὶ τεῖχος καὶ ἐκκενωθήσονται οἱ καιροί

9:26 καὶ μετὰ τὰς ἑβδομάδας τὰς ἑξήκοντα δύο ἐξολεθρευθήσεται χρῖσμα καὶ κρίμα οὐκ ἔστιν ἐν αὐτῷ καὶ τὴν πόλιν καὶ τὸ ἅγιον διαφθερεῖ σὺν τῷ ἡγουμένῳ τῷ ἐρχομένῳ καὶ ἐκκοπήσονται ἐν κατακλυσμῷ καὶ ἕως τέλους πολέμου συντετμημένου τάξει ἀφανισμοῖς

LeClerc
LeClerc

Hi Pow wow

pow wow wrote:
Hello Honey 56,
I see no place in the NT where the church is called Israel. Israel is used either to mean the nation, the people or the believers in the nation. I don't know of any verse that calls the church or the Gentile believer, Israel.
Perhaps somebody out there knows of some verses in the NT that do?


Who is the church in following passage from the NT ?

Acts 7 KJV
38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

LeClerc
Powwow

Hi LeClerk,
That would be the church during the days Moses was the mediator between God and Israel. When Christ was hidden in signs and symbols. The "he" is of course Moses.  I don't believe it is talking about the New Covenant Church. I'm looking for verses calling us Israel in the NT. Of course the church was Israel during the days of the prophets but what about Israel under the new covenant? I'm looking for us to be identified in the NT as Israel.
Sorry, I may not be doing a good job of explaining myself.
Farmer Geddon

Proved my point....

I had such High Hopes as well...
Powwow

What point Luci, I haven't been following your posts. Are you agreeing with me that Israel can mean the nation, or the redeemed within the nation? That the NT church is not Israel?
Jim

For a traditionalist evangelical perspective on the O/P, try
www.bible-researcher.com/gal6-16.html
Honey 56

Jim wrote:
For a traditionalist evangelical perspective on the O/P, try
www.bible-researcher.com/gal6-16.html


Thank you for this link Jim, I have saved it to my favourites and I've had a quick look, it seems very interesting.

Honey
Jim

Honey;
This was the standard theological position taken by most reformed churches in the 1980's.
You will see, by the copious use of 'theology-speak', why I wasn't too enamoured of the subject, despite having to endure the endless lectures!
However, it's worth ploughing your way through - as is the whole site.
There are diamonds among the dust....somewhere!
LeClerc

Hi pow wow

pow wow wrote:
Hi LeClerk,
That would be the church during the days Moses was the mediator between God and Israel. When Christ was hidden in signs and symbols. The "he" is of course Moses.  I don't believe it is talking about the New Covenant Church. I'm looking for verses calling us Israel in the NT. Of course the church was Israel during the days of the prophets but what about Israel under the new covenant? I'm looking for us to be identified in the NT as Israel.
Sorry, I may not be doing a good job of explaining myself.


How would Y'shua's hearers have understood Y'shua's words in the following passage ?

Matther 18 KJV
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

What is the identity of the Olive Tree in the following passage ?

Romans 11
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

LeClerc
Powwow

Hi LeClerk,
Check this debate out. Can't say it clears it up for me.lol
http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/TheOliveTreeDisputatio.html
Jim

OY!
Do you mind, pow wow?
Between RaptureReady and the WT, there's only so much humour a body can stand......
LeClerc

Hi pow wow

pow wow wrote:
Hi LeClerk,
Check this debate out. Can't say it clears it up for me.lol
http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/TheOliveTreeDisputatio.html


The first thing we must not do is confuse Israel with Judah.

The United Kingdom of Israel lasted through the reigns of Saul, David and Solomon. After Solomon died, the kingdom split into two, the ten tribes of "Israel" with their capital up in Samaria, and the tribes of Benjamin and Judah forming the kingdom of "Judah" with their capital at Jerusalem.

Paul refers to himdeself as a ''Ioudaios'' of Tarsus and also an Israelite.

"Paul said, I am a man which am a ''Ioudaios'' of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia" (Acts 21:39 KJV)

"I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin." (Romans 11:1 KJV)

Why did he do this since he was not of the tribe of Judah ?

LeClerc
Paul

Re: Israel. God's chosen

Honey 56 wrote:
What do the scriptures really teach about Israel, God’s chosen people?
Are they the same today as they were in Old and New Testament times?
Does the covenant that YHWH made with His people still stand today,
Or has another group of people taken the place of the original Israel in YHWH’s affections.
Is the covenant now for another group of people?

Honey


God's people, Israel, is the Church. We see this in figures in the Old Testament and explicitly in the New Testament, especially in the Gospels and the letters of the Apostle. Israel always was and is those who have a circumcised heart.
Powwow

Jim forget rapture ready, I don't know the site. I did find the debate between these guys interesting and you?
I think we can all agree that the believing Jew and Gentile are part of the church. I am just not prepared to say that Israel, the nation, the people, are out of the picture. I believe the nation and people are important players in prophesy. Are we part of that olive tree, the new covenant? Yes. Am I Israel? Not convinced of that.
Jim

and I remain to be convinced that we are not the "spiritual Israel".
Although I firmly believe in God's plan for the people of Israel, I'm no Zionist.
Christian Zionism has done much to antagonise the people of the Middle East - and, in the process, alienate the Christian Arabs in Israel, the Lebannon, Syria and Egypt.
Powwow

Yes Jim, I am aware of your anti Israeli feelings. Zionism in my house is NOT a dirty word.
I see nowhere in the NT, the church being called spiritual Israel. In my Bible Israel, Gentiles and the Church exist along side each other as far as I can tell.
Have a nice night Jim
Jim

pow wow;
Anti Israeli feelings?
I have no anti-Israeli feelings; but I feel for all God's children in the Middle east.
My best friend at school is a CofS minister in Tiberias, on the shores of Gallilee.
I'm also in correspondance with a Messianic congregation which is going from strength to strength - and hand in hand with an Arab congregation; both, incidentally, suffering persecutionat the hands of ultra Orthodox Jews.

Israel has the same right to exist as Lebanon, Egypt, Palestine - or any other nation; no more, no less.
Powwow

Well Jim you write Christian Zionism but that isn't the problem for the Arab. Jewish Zionism and the rebirth of the Jewish state is what they have the problem with.
It isn't Christian nor Jewish Zionism that forces Arab Christians to flee Gaza, Iraq and Egypt.
Sure there is bias against Israeli Christians but you don't have to fear death if you convert to Christianity like in all other Muslim states.
I am not ashamed to support the Jewish state and I support their right to do what ever it takes to ensure it's existence. I am troubled for the Arab Christians and the fear and brutality they live under among their Arab brothers. Arab Christians are under attack by Arab Muslims and Zionism has nothing to do with that.
Jim

All other Moslem states?
Sweeping statement, there?
Turkey?
Turkish Cyprus?
Lebanon?
Syria ( Asaad was, actually, the protector of thethird of the population who are Christian)
Tunisia ( A growing Christian Arab community)

I'm afraid the problem here is not religious, but political.
The Imperialist British and French arbitrarily creating nations where none existed, installing their puppet regimes to govern them, and then crying foul when they tried to either defend or redefine the borders.
It might take a few centuries for natural borders to establish themselves, unencumbered by British, American or Russian interference.
bnabernard

I wonder how the christian of the trinity feels towards the messianic Jewish understanding on the nature of God and if they feel it to be part of Israel.

http://messiahyeshua.blogspot.co.uk/
http://www.uniteourheart.com/Foundation-Articles/Shekhinah.html

bernard (hug)
Paul

I for one believe it would have been better had the modern state of Israel never been created. However, the fact is that it does yet it has no more right to exist than any other country and must act humanely and according to the international laws it has signed up to. It's a common tactic of Israel supporters to deflect criticism of Israel's abuses and atrocities by claiming how much worse the Arab countries are but really that's irrelevant.

The modern state of Israel is purely a human creation. I do not believe it fulfills any prophecies and I believe that it never will. The NT tells us quite explicitly who and what are the true descendants of Abraham, true Israelites.
LeClerc

Hi pow wow

pow wow wrote:
Jim forget rapture ready, I don't know the site. I did find the debate between these guys interesting and you?
I think we can all agree that the believing Jew and Gentile are part of the church. I am just not prepared to say that Israel, the nation, the people, are out of the picture. I believe the nation and people are important players in prophesy. Are we part of that olive tree, the new covenant? Yes. Am I Israel? Not convinced of that.


Could please define ''Jew'' and ''Gentile''.

LeClerc
Honey 56

What does God’s word prophesy concerning the nation of Israel?

Isaiah spoke of Israel being reborn in one day.

Prophecy: Old Testament: Isaiah 66:7-8 (Written: between 701-681 BC)
"Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son. Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children."

Fulfilled: 1948: In Isaiah 66:7-8, the prophet foreshadowed the re-birth of Israel in 1948. Isaiah describes a woman giving birth before going into labor, and he speaks of a country being born in one day. This accurately describes what happened on May 14, 1948 - when the Jews declared independence for Israel as a united and sovereign nation for the first time in 2900 years.

During that same day, the United States issued a statement recognizing Israel 's sovereignty. And, only hours beforehand, a United Nations mandate expired, ending British control of the land. During a 24-hour span of time, foreign control of the land of Israel had formally ceased, and Israel had declared its independence, and its independence was acknowledged by other nations. Modern Israel was literally was born in a single day.

Isaiah said the birth would take place before there would be labor pains. And that too is precisely what happened. A movement called Zionism began in the 1800s to encourage Jews worldwide to move to Israel , which at that time was called Palestine. Within hours of the declaration of independence in 1948, Israel was attacked by the surrounding countries of Egypt , Jordan , Syria , Lebanon , Iraq and Saudi Arabia .

When reading Isaiah 66:7-8, keep in mind that Israel 's status as a sovereign nation was established and reaffirmed during the course of a single day, and that it was born of a movement called Zionism, and that its declaration of independence was not the result of a war but rather the cause of one.


]The people of Israel will never cease to be a nation of people.

Prophecy: Old Testament: Jeremiah 31:35-36 (Written: 626 - 586 BC)
”This is what the LORD says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar-- the LORD Almighty is his name: "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight," declares the LORD, "will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me."


The exiled people of Israel would return to Israel .

Prophecy: Old Testament: Jeremiah 32:37-41 (Written: 626 - 586 BC)
“I will surely gather them from all the lands where I banish them in my furious anger and great wrath; I will bring them back to this place and let them live in safety. They will be my people, and I will be their God
.”

Isaiah said God would preserve the Jews.

Prophecy: Old Testament: Isaiah 66:22 (Written: between 701-681 BC)
”As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the Lord, "so will your name and descendants endure.”


The people of Israel would return to "their own land.”

Prophecy: Old Testament: Ezekiel 34:13 (Written: between 593-571 BC)
”I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel , in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land.”



From



http://www.israelsmessiah.com/

Jesus said. " Whatever you do for the least of these brothers of mine, you do for me"

Honey
Jim

I have no doubts that the formation of modern Israel is according to God's plan.
I believe, however, that unquestioning support of Israel is wrong.
We rightly condemn Iran for developing atomic weapons against United Nations International law. Some U.S. citizens advocate an invasion of Iran to stop this.
Do these same citizens advocate invading Israel to remove the illegal atomic weapons she already posses?
Er.... no.

We condemn dictatorships, and rightly so, holding up Israel as a beacon of Democracy.
Yet when the people of neighbouring states elect a democratic government which is antithetic to our views, we immediately cry foul.
Don't misunderstand me...I am extremely concerned that the people have elected militant Islamic regimes.
However the elections, monitored by international witnesses, were, on the whole, free and fair.
We may not like it - and I don't - but they have as much right as Israel to govern themselves.
Honey 56

The worlds press do not always report events faithfully and accurately, as you can see from this recent letter, thing in Israel are pretty desperate too.


Dear XXXXXX

  On the morning of Simchat Torah (the last day of Sukkot), a week ago Monday, over 50 Hamas rockets launched from Gaza hit communities in Israel's south. Only by God's mercy there were no injuries.

  Throughout this past weekend, rocket barrages continued even as the IDF hit terrorist targets in Gaza.

  Israelis across our nation are preparing for war. We pray that will not happen.

  But the same Scriptures that promise that all Israel will be saved, also foretell that Israel will not have peace until our people open their hearts to the Only One who can save them..

  And so we have water and long-term staples in our bomb shelter. We have flashlights and candles, and a gas burner to heat water.

  However, in Israel there are many who can’t stock up on staples in case there is a war because 20% of the population is now under the poverty line. And in the cities of the south where rockets continually hit, the poverty is chronic and debilitating.

  Businesses are few - and therefore unemployment high - because of the constant rocket attacks from Hamas.

  These people have no other place to go. Many are immigrants who had no idea they were leaving Russia or Eastern Europe only to find themselves in Israel under constant fire.

  Many, especially the children, suffer post-traumatic stress disorder.

  These are the people we want to help.

  In partnership with the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America's large new warehouse in Sderot, Maoz has committed to raise $50,000 to provide floor-to-ceiling shelving for the entire storehouse. That's 258 10-feet-long (3-meters) shelves that can hold 3 pallets of humanitarian aid each.

We have raised just over $31,000 so far,
and only have $19,000 to go!

  Help us make it happen! You can give $65 to help store one pallet of aid. You can give $195 to furnish an entire shelf. Or you can give as much as the Lord leads – no amount is too small!

  The first containers arriving will deliver survival kits for use in the community bomb shelters.

This is our opportunity to help and bless the oppressed families of southern Israel.

  Together, we will see the shelves of this warehouse be fitted against its walls and filled with goods to bring HOPE and LOVE! We will help those in need today, and we continue to bring hope for Eternal Life at the same time.

Thank you for your help in bringing God’s chosen people back to Him!


      Ari & Shira Sorko-Ram

Bless the poor and oppressed in the South of Israel

MaozIsrael.


Honey
Paul

Honey 56 wrote:
What does God’s word prophesy concerning the nation of Israel?

Isaiah spoke of Israel being reborn in one day.

Prophecy: Old Testament: Isaiah 66:7-8 (Written: between 701-681 BC)
"Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son. Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children."

Fulfilled: 1948: In Isaiah 66:7-8, the prophet foreshadowed the re-birth of Israel in 1948. Isaiah describes a woman giving birth before going into labor, and he speaks of a country being born in one day. This accurately describes what happened on May 14, 1948 - when the Jews declared independence for Israel as a united and sovereign nation for the first time in 2900 years.

During that same day, the United States issued a statement recognizing Israel 's sovereignty. And, only hours beforehand, a United Nations mandate expired, ending British control of the land. During a 24-hour span of time, foreign control of the land of Israel had formally ceased, and Israel had declared its independence, and its independence was acknowledged by other nations. Modern Israel was literally was born in a single day.

Isaiah said the birth would take place before there would be labor pains. And that too is precisely what happened. A movement called Zionism began in the 1800s to encourage Jews worldwide to move to Israel , which at that time was called Palestine. Within hours of the declaration of independence in 1948, Israel was attacked by the surrounding countries of Egypt , Jordan , Syria , Lebanon , Iraq and Saudi Arabia .

When reading Isaiah 66:7-8, keep in mind that Israel 's status as a sovereign nation was established and reaffirmed during the course of a single day, and that it was born of a movement called Zionism, and that its declaration of independence was not the result of a war but rather the cause of one.


]The people of Israel will never cease to be a nation of people.

Prophecy: Old Testament: Jeremiah 31:35-36 (Written: 626 - 586 BC)
”This is what the LORD says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar-- the LORD Almighty is his name: "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight," declares the LORD, "will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me."


The exiled people of Israel would return to Israel .

Prophecy: Old Testament: Jeremiah 32:37-41 (Written: 626 - 586 BC)
“I will surely gather them from all the lands where I banish them in my furious anger and great wrath; I will bring them back to this place and let them live in safety. They will be my people, and I will be their God
.”

Isaiah said God would preserve the Jews.

Prophecy: Old Testament: Isaiah 66:22 (Written: between 701-681 BC)
”As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the Lord, "so will your name and descendants endure.”


The people of Israel would return to "their own land.”

Prophecy: Old Testament: Ezekiel 34:13 (Written: between 593-571 BC)
”I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel , in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land.”



From



http://www.israelsmessiah.com/

Jesus said. " Whatever you do for the least of these brothers of mine, you do for me"

Honey


These prophecies are fulfilled in the Church. They are using figures. Really! Does no one understand what the New Testament is saying? Israel are those who have a circumcised heart and their homeland is the heavenly Jerusalem and God will gather them from all nations . These are the people of the promise, Abraham's true descendants. How can these prophecies refer to the modern state of Israel, a nation still in unbelief? Isn't this why God scattered them in the first place?
Honey 56

Quote:
[quote="Paul:80794"][quote="Honey 56:80785"

These prophecies are fulfilled in the Church. They are using figures. Really! Does no one understand what the New Testament is saying? Israel are those who have a circumcised heart and their homeland is the heavenly Jerusalem and God will gather them from all nations . These are the people of the promise, Abraham's true descendants. How can these prophecies refer to the modern state of Israel, a nation still in unbelief? Isn't this why God scattered them in the first place?


I don't think these prophesies have been fullfilled in the  'new testament church'

or these...


The people of Israel would be exiled, scorned and ridiculed.

Prophecy: Old Testament: Deuteronomy 28:36-37 (Written: about 1400 BC)
”The Lord will drive you and the king you set over you to a nation unknown to you or your fathers. There you will worship other gods, gods of wood and stone. You will become a thing of horror and an object of scorn and ridicule to all the nations where the Lord will drive you.”


The exiled people of Israel would return to Israel .

Prophecy: Old Testament: Jeremiah 32:37-41 (Written: 626 - 586 BC)
“I will surely gather them from all the lands where I banish them in my furious anger and great wrath; I will bring them back to this place and let them live in safety. They will be my people, and I will be their God


YHWH's promises are irrevocable, we as the 'new testament church' have been grafted into the olive tree, but the rootstock is God's Israel and we are adopted into His family by means of being grafted in, because of His kindness to us. The natural branches (that have been broken off) can and will be grafted in also, (Romans 11) by the same means.
Paul

Then it's clear people here don't understand the NT, innit, if they think God regards people on account of their physical descent. There is nothing more opposed to the Gospel.
Honey 56

Paul wrote:
Then it's clear people here don't understand the NT, innit, if they think God regards people on account of their physical descent. There is nothing more opposed to the Gospel.


Then you are mistaken about what some of us believe Paul
It is nothing to do with physical descent and everything to do with YHWH's promises to His people, which according to the new testament are irrevocable. It is everything to do with YHWH's being able to save anyone and by any means He so wishes. And it is about Him having  mercy on whomsoever He chooses.

Honey
Paul

Honey 56 wrote:
Paul wrote:
Then it's clear people here don't understand the NT, innit, if they think God regards people on account of their physical descent. There is nothing more opposed to the Gospel.


Then you are mistaken about what some of us believe Paul
It is nothing to do with physical descent and everything to do with YHWH's promises to His people, which according to the new testament are irrevocable. It is everything to do with YHWH's being able to save anyone and by any means He so wishes. And it is about Him having  mercy on whomsoever He chooses.

Honey


Those promises are fulfilled in the Church and always were. Of course Jews, just as Gentiles, can be saved but not as a particular nation of people, otherwise my previous comment is quite accurate. They must have faith, repent and be baptised to be grafted back in and only then will they be true Israelites (some will convert and others won't). The Apostle makes all this very clear in his letters.

For those who believe Israel is the Jews, I've always wondered what you believe the Apostle means when he says "all Israel will be saved"? All the Jews who ever lived, even those who mocked and condemned Christ? Those Jews who are still around when Christ returns, even those who never converted? The words of the Apostle only really make sense when Israel is applied to the Church.
LeClerc

Hi Paul
Paul wrote:

For those who believe Israel is the Jews, I've always wondered what you believe the Apostle means when he says "all Israel will be saved"? All the Jews who ever lived, even those who mocked and condemned Christ? Those Jews who are still around when Christ returns, even those who never converted? The words of the Apostle only really make sense when Israel is applied to the Church.


Only one of the twelve tribes of Israel was/is Judah.

The United Kingdom of Israel lasted through the reigns of Saul, David and Solomon. After Solomon died, the kingdom split into two, the ten tribes of "Israel" with their capital up in Samaria, and the tribes of Benjamin and Judah forming the kingdom of "Judah" with their capital at Jerusalem.

Paul refers to himdeself as a ''Ioudaios'' of Tarsus and also an Israelite.

"Paul said, I am a man which am a ''Ioudaios'' of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia" (Acts 21:39 KJV)

"I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin." (Romans 11:1 KJV)

Why did he do this since he was not of the tribe of Judah ?

LeClerc
bnabernard

The Jew had God in a box, the law, this was to make them as one body a son of God, Yeshua came, then there was God in a body of flesh.

The body of flesh that was Israel failed, the body of flesh that was Yeshuah succeded.

The body of flesh that was Israel failed both themselves and the people of other nations, the gentiles.

The body of flesh that is Yeshua serves all faithfully.

A person be it Gentile or Jew has to be grafted in by the heart to the truth of God and be one with God and one body.

Examine those that before there was the law, and gather together on account of their heart.
Their rules were handed down from Noah and the tutoring of Abram was with Melechizedeck.

Where will God return and have His office, well the world is at war with nature while Irael is at war with men, and the euphratis is down to a trickle.

Man the Gentile lost the law of Noah and can retrieve it through the law in the box or through the law in the body, or look up the Noadic law, however what does not alter is a heart that is acceptable to the one true God.

bernard (hug) (imo)
Jim

Not only that, Paul;
Does "all Israel" refer to the 27% Arab population claiming Israeli citizenship?
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
The Jew had God in a box, the law, this was to make them as one body a son of God, Yeshua came, then there was God in a body of flesh.

The body of flesh that was Israel failed, the body of flesh that was Yeshuah succeded.

The body of flesh that was Israel failed both themselves and the people of other nations, the gentiles.

The body of flesh that is Yeshua serves all faithfully.

A person be it Gentile or Jew has to be grafted in by the heart to the truth of God and be one with God and one body.

Examine those that before there was the law, and gather together on account of their heart.
Their rules were handed down from Noah and the tutoring of Abram was with Melechizedeck.

Where will God return and have His office, well the world is at war with nature while Irael is at war with men, and the euphratis is down to a trickle.

Man the Gentile lost the law of Noah and can retrieve it through the law in the box or through the law in the body, or look up the Noadic law, however what does not alter is a heart that is acceptable to the one true God.

bernard (hug) (imo)


http://www.therealchurch.com/arti..._word_that_changed_the_world.html



LeClerc
Honey 56

Quote:
[quote="bnabernard:80835"]The Jew had God in a box, the law, this was to make them as one body a son of God, Yeshua came, then there was God in a body of flesh.
bernard (hug) (imo)


Hi Bernard.
Good post.
It has talken me aback slightly, I had no idea from your previous posts that you believe that Jesus is God (in a body of flesh)
I got the impression that you believe that Jesus is God's son and not God incarnate also.
Did I misunderstand your previous posts?
Sorry if I have.

Honey
bnabernard

Yes you misunderstand all my posts Honey, but don't fret so does everybody else,    

Yeshua is the son of God who requires brothers. He in one person is what Israel should have been in many people.

bernard (hug)
bnabernard

This seems a helpful site for those confused about Jew Gentile (goy)
the fixed law the customary law ect ect ect.

http://www.jewfaq.org/judaism.htm#Nation

Might make one a bit dizzy but hey dizzy is fun  

bernard (hug)
Honey 56

Thank you for your link Bernard.

I like dizzy, although I tend towards giddy!  

Here is another good ;link...


http://jesusisajew.org/

Honey

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