Archive for nglreturns.myfreeforum.org Nglreturns is a forum to discuss religion, philosophy, ethics etc...

NGLReturns Daily Quiz - Play here!
 



       nglreturns.myfreeforum.org Forum Index -> Christian chat
Jim

Jars of Clay?

"yet You, LORD, are our father,
     We are the clay, you are the potter.
We are all the work of Your hand."
    (Is: 64:8. NIV )

   On another thread, the subject of cracked pots came up. We're all flawed, but made by the ultimate potter.
Discuss!
Leonard James

Re: Jars of Clay?

Jim wrote:
"yet You, LORD, are our father,
     We are the clay, you are the potter.
We are all the work of Your hand."
    (Is: 64:8. NIV )

   On another thread, the subject of cracked pots came up. We're all flawed, but made by the ultimate potter.
Discuss!

He should have taken a few more lessons before turning us out.
Jim

Re: Jars of Clay?

Why, Len?
Did he make a botched job of it?
Leonard James

Re: Jars of Clay?

Jim wrote:
Why, Len?
Did he make a botched job of it?

Well I suppose turning out all cracked pots could be considered a batch of botch!
Jim

Re: Jars of Clay?

The whole point of a pot, though, isn't what it looks like - it's what's supposed to be inside it.
Jim

Re: Jars of Clay?

"For God, who said "Let light shine out of darkness", made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God's glory displayed in the face of Christ.
But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God, and not from us. "
( 2 Cor 4: 6-7, NIV )


Vessels for God's power!
What a promise - and what a responsibility.
When you go on to read the succeeding three verses, realising what Paul as a "fool for Christ" went through, you see that that power was not put there for no purpose.
Farmer Geddon

Re: Jars of Clay?

Jim wrote:
"yet You, LORD, are our father,
     We are the clay, you are the potter.
We are all the work of Your hand."
    (Is: 64:8. NIV )

   On another thread, the subject of cracked pots came up. We're all flawed, but made by the ultimate potter.
Discuss!


Hunted high and low for this quote in Isa 64:8..

Are you sure it is in the Hebrew text?

Isaiah 64:8 in my version says: "Be not wroth very sore, O LORD, neither remember iniquity for ever; behold, look, we beseech Thee, we are all Thy people".
Powwow

"But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou art our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand."   Isaiah 64:8 King James Version
Leonard James

Re: Jars of Clay?

Jim wrote:
The whole point of a pot, though, isn't what it looks like - it's what's supposed to be inside it.

Neat, but in no way negates the fact that a cracked pot is hardly the work of a master potter.
Jim

Cheers, pow wow!
I was beginning to think I'd got the wrong quote....and not for the first time!
Honey 56

I love this Chinese proverb Jim.  

An elderly Chinese woman had two large pots, which she hung on the
ends of a pole that she carried across her neck. Every day she would make the long walk to a stream to fetch water for her home. One of the pots was in perfect condition, and always delivered a full portion of water. The other pot had a crack in it, from which water leaked. As a result, by the time the woman returned home, the cracked pot arrived only half full.
For two years  the woman made her daily trek to the stream, each
time returning with only one and a half pots of water.
The perfect pot was proud of its condition and of what it could do. The
cracked pot, however, was ashamed of its imperfection and of the fact that it could do only half of what it had been made for. One day, the cracked pot, overwhelmed by what it perceived to be its bitter failure, spoke to the woman at the stream.“I am ashamed of myself, because this crack in my side causes water to leak out all the way back to your house.”
The old woman smiled at the pot and replied, “Have you noticed that
there are flowers on your side of the path, but not on the other pot’s side? I have always known about your flaw, so I planted flower seeds on your side of the path. Every day, on our walk home, you water them. For two years now I have been able to pick these beautiful flowers to decorate the table.Without you being just the way you are, there would not be this beauty to grace our home.”
Each of us has our own crack, our own unique flaw. It’s these cracks
and flaws that make our lives together so very interesting and rewarding,and it’s often these cracks and flaws that enable us to do good. Accept people for what they are; look for the good in them and the good that they do.
And don’t miss the flowers on your side of the path.


It reminds me of our walk/relationship with the Lord.

Honey  
Jim

Back in my dim and distant past, I used to have umpteen stickers, badges, etc. One was of a pot, with an obvious crack in it, and a drip of fluid oozing out of it.
The logo round the edge read
"Leak Love for Christ's sake!"
Ketty

The Potter's Wheel and Jars of Clay

source: http://www.truthortradition.com/

    The Scripture illustrations drawn from pottery emphasize three important resemblances between it and the spiritual life.

    (1) The subjection of the clay to the potter (Isaiah 29:16, 45:9, 64:8; Jeremiah 18:4-11; Romans 9:21). This teaches the possibilities of faith and the iniquity of rebellion against the will of God. An Arabic proverb says, “The potter can put the ear where he likes.”

    (2) Its cheapness and insignificance. Common clay pitchers and water jars cost very little. This fact provides a graphic background for the humiliation of Zion described in Lamentations 4:2: “The precious sons of Zion, comparable to fine gold, how are they esteemed as earthen pitchers, the work of the hands of the potter!”

    Fervent words from a wicked heart are compared to silver dross over an earthen vessel (Proverbs 26:23). The earthen vessel can hold what is valuable without having any value of its own. Such is the condition of the Christian, who holds within himself the knowledge of the eternal Word of God (2 Corinthians 4:7).

    (3) Fragility. The pottery vessels are very easily broken and cannot be mended. Sometimes a small hole in a jar can be stopped up with mud, a rag, or dough, but usually the knock or fall that breaks one part breaks it altogether and instantaneously (Psalm 2:9, 31:12; Isaiah 30:14; Jeremiah 19:11; Revelation 2:27). This frailty is alluded to in a familiar Arabic proverb, which teaches patience amid provocations: “If there were no breakages, there would be no potteries.”
Farmer Geddon

Ahh - OK - I can see where the confusion comes from.

The Translation of the Hebrew bible I use has a different 1st line: "As when fire kindleth the brush-wood, and the fire causeth the waters to boil; to make Thy name known to Thine adversaries, that the nations might tremble at Thy presence," which knocks the whole reading out by 1 'verse'.

For some reason what is the 1st line in your bibles is the last one in Isa 63:19 "We are become as they over whom Thou never borest rule, as they that were not called by Thy name. Oh, that Thou wouldest rend the heavens, that Thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might quake at Thy presence",
Jim

FG;
Which translation are you using?
The language isn't very modern, so I presume it isn't recent?
Farmer Geddon

I guess not - It's one I downloaded from t'internet a decade or so ago from a site called "Mechon Mamre" http://www.mechon-mamre.org/index.htm and have carried with me digitally ever since!
Farmer Geddon

"The Potter's Wheel and Jars of Clay"

So way back in the day what was the ostraca used for?

Then we get to Ela/Elat; the feminine form of El.

We know her as Asherah, although she also goes by the name Chawat in Phoenician, but also Hawah in Hebrew.
El could create by word alone, or by modelling a creature from clay, like a potter, but can Asherah be the one who holds and drops the pot?



**ETA** Just throwing a curve-ball out there to see if research is part of your criteria, or just acceptance!
Jim

What do you mean, "What was the ostraca used for?"
I can think of a few uses offhand...I've handled dozens of 'em!
Farmer Geddon

Well I know what they were used for..  care to enlighten those who might not?

But again I have to make it known that when chatting to a Christian - keep it subjective, if they can sniff a way to derail a subject, then then will throw that hammer out of the "ball park"..
Jim

Well, I remember when I was part of a dig at Tanis in Egypt, working on a refuse area. There were literally thousands of ostraca ( pieces of pot ) there. They had been re-used as surfaces to write on. We found shopping lists, simple accounts, curses, prayers and even love notes!
Great stuff.
Farmer Geddon

Jim wrote:
Well, I remember when I was part of a dig at Tanis in Egypt, working on a refuse area. There were literally thousands of ostraca ( pieces of pot ) there. They had been re-used as surfaces to write on. We found shopping lists, simple accounts, curses, prayers and even love notes!
Great stuff.


So.. is it not possible that the Pot and Jug might refer to how fluid the writings are, after all 'God' is not contained within creation or history; anymore than the pot holds the potter?
Jim

Nice analogy, ther, FG.
But ostraca aren't just broken pots - which can be sealed with wax or patched; though still imperfect, they can at least hold something.
Ostraca are fragments, and not even the kings horses or men could do a humpty dumpty on them to resurrect them into anything that could hold water!
Farmer Geddon

Cool; But again I have to make it known that when chatting to a Christian - keep it subjective, if they can sniff a way to derail a subject, then then will throw that hammer out of the "ball park"..

What about the notion of Ela/Elat; is the feminine form of El?

We know her as Asherah, although she also goes by the name Chawat in Phoenician, but also Hawah in Hebrew.

El could create by word alone, or by modelling a creature from clay like a potter, but can Asherah be the one who holds the 'Pot' and who drops it?


Or was it more: "Feet of Clay"?
Jim

Semiotics was never my strong point, but "el" was a common name or appelation in Sumerian, Akkaddiamn as well as Canaaanite religion.
That it is also used of YHWH is not really surprising.
The two religions - Canaanite and Hebrew, are connected by little - save several words common to both tongues.
Farmer Geddon

Hey Jim - All this talk of Potters got me searching and I came across something I didn't know!!

Ever heard of the Demotic Chronicles?

The two of interest being:  The Oracle of the Lamb to Bocchoris.

and

The Oracle of the Potter.

Both of which date from the Early Hellenistic period - the late 3rd Century B.C.E and lament the end of Egyptian monarchy and the coming of occidental hegemony.

Both apparently predict a restoration of the proper order due to the arrival of a Royal Saviour..
Jim

Yep;
The Demotic Chronicles were copied many times in Ptolemaic times.
Funny, everyone talks about the Greek philosophers, but no-one mentions
The Wisdom of Amenemope
The Tale of Wenamun
The Hymn to the Aten...and on, and on.

There are quite a few texts, some (from DYN XII ) purporting to be from the archetect Imhotep (Dyn III)

The period I'm interested in - c1100-500BC ) is peppered with wisdom literature.
Shaker

Jim wrote:
Back in my dim and distant past, I used to have umpteen stickers, badges, etc. One was of a pot, with an obvious crack in it, and a drip of fluid oozing out of it.
The logo round the edge read
"Leak Love for Christ's sake!"

An interesting saying spoilt only by being three words too long.
Jim

Wot;
"leak love for"?


( There were other stickers - some REALLY naff ones, e.g. the Coca-cola logo, but instead of the above mentioned beverege, the sticker read thusly;
"Jesus Christ - He's the real thing")
Lexilogio

I do enjoy reading these discussions. I always learn loads.
Jim

wot - about naff stickers?
Lexilogio

Jim wrote:
wot - about naff stickers?


 No - about the discussion re ostraca and linguistic bits.
Jim

The first time I dug an ostraca with hieratic writing on it, I thought I'd found something wonderful.
OK, it was only a bill for onions, but it was a bill for onions no-one had seen for twenty-eight hundred years. So what if there were thousands of the things there ( No exaggeration, BTW )?
This one was found by me!
Lexilogio

Jim wrote:
The first time I dug an ostraca with hieratic writing on it, I thought I'd found something wonderful.
OK, it was only a bill for onions, but it was a bill for onions no-one had seen for twenty-eight hundred years. So what if there were thousands of the things there ( No exaggeration, BTW )?
This one was found by me!


 I'm amazed that it was something so ordinary - but that is probably why they are actually more valuable. So often, the ordinary is lost.

Two years ago we visited Knossos - and have been to Pylos before. What amazes me is that the Linear B writings are things we would consider notes - not great literature. Perhaps we were hoping for a snatch of the Iliad...
Jim

We learn more about ordinary people through the stuff they throw away, such as ostraca. There are tens of thousands of them in stores all over the place, in museums and warehouses.
Yes, some are mundane and trivial - but just as important sas the wall carvings at Karnak or Deir-el Bahari.

However, there are real diamonds in the detritus.
One ostraca, dated by the demotic writing which was proto-Coptic, to the early secont Century, probably 130AD, found at the Hellenistic town of OxyRhinccus in the Delta, shows a very crudely carved King - in classic Egyptian pose.
The writing on it says "the three who is one".
Not proof; not this one ostracon, but certainly strong evidence of Trinitarianism. Associated with the ostracon in the midden were remains of very rare glazed amphora. They were found below a later deposit of MSS fragments, including substantial parts of a Greek translation of Revelation, dating to around 240, with '616' instead of '666'.
Interesting!
Lexilogio

Jim wrote:
We learn more about ordinary people through the stuff they throw away, such as ostraca. There are tens of thousands of them in stores all over the place, in museums and warehouses.
Yes, some are mundane and trivial - but just as important sas the wall carvings at Karnak or Deir-el Bahari.

However, there are real diamonds in the detritus.
One ostraca, dated by the demotic writing which was proto-Coptic, to the early secont Century, probably 130AD, found at the Hellenistic town of OxyRhinccus in the Delta, shows a very crudely carved King - in classic Egyptian pose.
The writing on it says "the three who is one".
Not proof; not this one ostracon, but certainly strong evidence of Trinitarianism. Associated with the ostracon in the midden were remains of very rare glazed amphora. They were found below a later deposit of MSS fragments, including substantial parts of a Greek translation of Revelation, dating to around 240, with '616' instead of '666'.
Interesting!


Very interesting! We know about those early years.

We visited a place on Crete which was a settlement from 7000BC - and it was littered with broken pottery. Its a tragedy that the Greeks haven't got the resources at the moment to look after and sort these sites. The heart of it is protected, but this was from a time when a Greek settlement was several areas - the bath house area, the water storage area etc... all spread around the valley.
Jim

It's a similar situation in Egypt - but magnified a thousandfold.
Ariel photography has revealed literally dozens of buried towns and pyramids yet unexcavated. OK, these won't be treasure filled tombs, but they will fill in gaps that still remain. Egypt hasn't the money to excavatee or guard these sites - and the photos are easily accessible online - so robbers will probably have a field day, and you can start looking at ebay for Egyptian artifacts at knock down prices.
Lexilogio

Jim wrote:
It's a similar situation in Egypt - but magnified a thousandfold.
Ariel photography has revealed literally dozens of buried towns and pyramids yet unexcavated. OK, these won't be treasure filled tombs, but they will fill in gaps that still remain. Egypt hasn't the money to excavatee or guard these sites - and the photos are easily accessible online - so robbers will probably have a field day, and you can start looking at ebay for Egyptian artifacts at knock down prices.


I saw some recent pictures. They reckon they have identified three new pyramids.
LeClerc

Re: Jars of Clay?

Hi Jim

Jim wrote:
"yet You, LORD, are our father,
     We are the clay, you are the potter.
We are all the work of Your hand."
    (Is: 64:8. NIV )

   On another thread, the subject of cracked pots came up. We're all flawed, but made by the ultimate potter.
Discuss!


Isaiah 64 Restored Name Version

7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.

8 But now, O YHWH, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.



YHWH’s face is revealed through Y’shua, The Messiah, who is The Logos of YHWH, the hand of YHWH, the hand of our Father, and He reaches down and takes the hand of His child and begins to put right all of the cracks and imperfections as he fills us with his word if only we would let Him.

LeClerc
Jim

Re: Jars of Clay?

"if only we would let him."
Exactly, LeClerc, but there's the problem.
Surrendering isn't one of the traits we value.
But it is only by surrendering, letting go of self, and inviting Him into the parts of our lives we'd rather He didn't know about ( an impossibility, of course ) that we really come into the relationship with God that He means for us to have!
Ketty

Re: Jars of Clay?

Jim wrote:

But it is only by surrendering, letting go of self, and inviting Him into the parts of our lives we'd rather He didn't know about ( an impossibility, of course ) that we really come into the relationship with God that He means for us to have!


Yes, and Amen!
LeClerc

Re: Jars of Clay?

Hi Jim

Jim wrote:
"if only we would let him."
Exactly, LeClerc, but there's the problem.
Surrendering isn't one of the traits we value.
But it is only by surrendering, letting go of self, and inviting Him into the parts of our lives we'd rather He didn't know about ( an impossibility, of course ) that we really come into the relationship with God that He means for us to have!


Maybe the difficulty occurs because people are taught that to be born again all one has to do is to invite Y'shua into one's life, but the truth is before we can be born again we need to die.

Under Rabbinic teaching Nicodemus had been born again several times but did not understand the new birth the Messiah was talking about thinking the only option open to him was to climb back into his mothers womb and start the physical process of birth all over again.

LeClerc
Jim

Re: Jars of Clay?

Or, as Paul put it, "dying to self". Yes.
That can be - indeed it should be - difficult, when we start to realise just how far we have fallen from where we should be, and acknowledging in our own lives just how much Calvary needs to change us...which, of course, if we are honest with ourselves, and let the changes happen, kick starts the new life within us.

       nglreturns.myfreeforum.org Forum Index -> Christian chat
Page 1 of 1
Create your own free forum | Buy a domain to use with your forum