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Lexilogio

Lets start again... what makes a Christian?

Since Trents thread was so quickly derailed with insults - lets start again.

What makes a Christian?
Lexilogio

And I will start by adding my view. Over the last few months I have heard this discussed, and I have heard people in various churches tell me that they alone are the real Christians.

A Christian is anyone endeavouring to follow Christ.

However, I would argue that an organisation which inflicts harm on its flock does not have Christian values, and as such, is steering them astray.
Farmer Geddon

TBF -The question should be: "What is a Christian?


A "Christian" is not what a follower of Jesus was... they were Jewish, not Greek!! and a "Christian" hadn't been invented yet... they were still "Jews"...

Jesus held strong Jewish beliefs, as did Paul/Mark/Matthew and Luke..

So Obviously JESUS was a STRONG JEW according to the "Gospels"..

John was a Greek through and through and didn't understand what Jesus was Predicting... hence the Jews ignored his shit..


If only "John" was Jewish.... Jesus would have been god... for all of us to follow.. apart from ALLAH...
Jim

"By this shall all men know that you are My disciples; that you love one another"
Works for me.
Derek

A Christian, in my opinion, is someone who strives to follow the teaching of Jesus Christ in its entirety. Someone who really wants to keep the commandments of God. It is someone who leads a Christ centred life recognising that He is the son of a living God and that the Holy Ghost testifies of who He is. Christianity is not dependant on what faith you belong to, it is a way of life, not a membership in a club. I consider myself to be a Christian, as I do Lexi and Leonard James, if he where not an atheist.

Contrary to FGs opinion, I believe that Christianity began the moment that Christ began his earthly ministry by teaching the word of God. He said that when two or three are gathered in my name there will I be in the midst of them.
Ketty

Re: Lets start again... what makes a Christian?

Lexilogio wrote:

What makes a Christian?


In Christ Jesus* being born again in Spirit* and in Truth.

* I AM: the triune Godhead - God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
gone

As Christianity has so many dogmas, some benign, others positively evil, I don't think there is any one thing that defines a Christian, apart from using that guy Jesus as a figurehead.
cyberman

Floo wrote:
As Christianity has so many dogmas, some benign, others positively evil, I don't think there is any one thing that defines a Christian, apart from using that guy Jesus as a figurehead.


How do you mean, 'figurehead'?
JamesJah

This scripture applied to Jesus chosen ones mostly.

Matthew 7:21
Not everyone saying to me, Lord, Lor,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.


But there is also the wheat and the weed Christians, the wheat Christian is unique in one aspect of faith, they are faithful to the end, end of this system of things or the end of their earthly life.

Matthew 10:22
You will be objects of hatred by all people on account of my name; but he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved.


Matthew 24:13, 14
But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved. 1

nd this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.

Who is it that is preaching the good news of the Kingdom?

Those who say they are Christian must also be doing Gods will so who are the ones not doing it?
The Boyg

Hi James. As you're back perhaps you could answer the question in this post: http://nglreturns.myfreeforum.org/sutra96434.php#96434 ?
JamesJah

The Boyg wrote:
Hi James. As you're back perhaps you could answer the question in this post: http://nglreturns.myfreeforum.org/sutra96434.php#96434 ?


I have posted already.

Have you seen the latest here?

http://spaceweather.com/
Truster

Re: Lets start again... what makes a Christian?

Lexilogio wrote:
Since Trents thread was so quickly derailed with insults - lets start again.

What makes a Christian?


The hint is in the text; ''And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch''.
Lexilogio

Re: Lets start again... what makes a Christian?

Truster wrote:
Lexilogio wrote:
Since Trents thread was so quickly derailed with insults - lets start again.

What makes a Christian?


The hint is in the text; ''And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch''.


Yes, but why were they called Christians? What determined that someone was a Christian then - and has that changed now?
Truster

Re: Lets start again... what makes a Christian?

Lexilogio wrote:
Truster wrote:
Lexilogio wrote:
Since Trents thread was so quickly derailed with insults - lets start again.

What makes a Christian?


The hint is in the text; ''And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch''.


Yes, but why were they called Christians? What determined that someone was a Christian then - and has that changed now?


They we called Messianists not Christians. It's vital to notice who were called Messianists ''disciples''. A disciple is someone who learns. And according to the promise Yah Veh would teach His children. So then, as now, the term Messianist/ Christian is ONLY applied to those who learn from the Eternal. That is those that have the annointing that John spoke of.

There are those people that call themselves Messianist/Christian, but have never received a single doctrine from above.
Leonard James

Re: Lets start again... what makes a Christian?

Lexilogio wrote:
Truster wrote:
Lexilogio wrote:
Since Trents thread was so quickly derailed with insults - lets start again.

What makes a Christian?


The hint is in the text; ''And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch''.


Yes, but why were they called Christians? What determined that someone was a Christian then - and has that changed now?


Isn't it the obvious name to call people who followed the teachings of Christ?
Shaker

Re: Lets start again... what makes a Christian?

Leonard James wrote:
Lexilogio wrote:
Truster wrote:
Lexilogio wrote:
Since Trents thread was so quickly derailed with insults - lets start again.

What makes a Christian?


The hint is in the text; ''And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch''.


Yes, but why were they called Christians? What determined that someone was a Christian then - and has that changed now?


Isn't it the obvious name to call people who followed the teachings of Christ?

Not that obvious when you have one group of people who follow what they think are the teachings of Christ regarding another group who follow what they think are the teachings of Christ as non-Christians ...    It really does seem to be one of those words or phrases such as tolerant or open-minded which only means whatever the speaker wants it to mean on any specific occasion. As a non-member of the club I would like to think that Desmond Tutu is a Christian and Fred Phelps isn't, save that Mr Phelps would say that he is and furthermore that he's a true and proper Christian to boot. No way round it, as far as I can see.
Leonard James

Re: Lets start again... what makes a Christian?

Shaker wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
Lexilogio wrote:
Truster wrote:
Lexilogio wrote:
Since Trents thread was so quickly derailed with insults - lets start again.

What makes a Christian?


The hint is in the text; ''And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch''.


Yes, but why were they called Christians? What determined that someone was a Christian then - and has that changed now?


Isn't it the obvious name to call people who followed the teachings of Christ?

Not that obvious when you have one group of people who follow what they think are the teachings of Christ regarding another group who follow what they think are the teachings of Christ as non-Christians ...    It really does seem to be one of those words or phrases such as tolerant or open-minded which only means whatever the speaker wants it to mean on any specific occasion. As a non-member of the club I would like to think that Desmond Tutu is a Christian and Fred Phelps isn't, save that Mr Phelps would say that he is and furthermore that he's a true and proper Christian to boot. No way round it, as far as I can see.


I agree absolutely, but I was simply saying why Christians were originally dubbed as such (Lexi's question) ... and I don't see any valid argument to refute that.

It should have been quite obvious to Jesus or anybody else that with such a hotch-potch of scriptures to follow, there were going to be countless different interpretations of the rules.

No doubt Jesus was wise enough to see that, which is why he boiled it all down to loving God and loving your neighbour. He actually said (if the scriptures are to be relied on) "on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets".
Lexilogio

Yes, I agree with Shaker. There are a couple of issues behind this question:

1. If a Christian is simply someone who follows Christ (regardless of success - they merely profess to follow), then it becomes very inclusive.
2. If to be a Christian you must also meet a degree of Christian behaviours (or absolutely not meet some non-Christian behaviours), then that is not inclusive.

Fred Phelps is an interesting example here. He professes to follow Christ. Yet many of his views and ways of behaviour many would describe as antithetic to Christ. So if someone teaches ways which are anti Christ's teachings, yet professes to follow Christ.... where does that leave us? Is he a Christian or not? Does it come down to interpretation of Christ's teachings? Who is the arbiter? Should there be an agreed set of principles under which the term, "Christian" is used?
Jim

Isn't the arbiter Scripture, Lexi?
After all, Jesus did command us to love
God.
Our Nieghbour
Our enemies.
Are the Phelps crew living up to those commands?
And when Jesus gathered the core of the nascent Church together on that Thursday night, he said
"By this shall all men know that you are my disciples; that you love one another, as I love you."
And how much was that?
Lexilogio

Jim wrote:
Isn't the arbiter Scripture, Lexi?
After all, Jesus did command us to love
God.
Our Nieghbour
Our enemies.
Are the Phelps crew living up to those commands?
And when Jesus gathered the core of the nascent Church together on that Thursday night, he said
"By this shall all men know that you are my disciples; that you love one another, as I love you."
And how much was that?


Ah. But scripture doesn't specify what a Christian is, exactly.
I agree - Jesus commanded us to love our neighbour - but different groups interpret this in different ways. For example, watching the Louis Theroux documentary on the Phelps group, they talked about their "work" being done out of love, a form of "tough love".

I agree that love is a good yardstick - and its one I use myself. Where I see an organisation which seems to operate with the premise of loving their neighbour, I take them as Christian. But that is probably my interpretation of love, which means, being nice to others, not causing harm.
Leonard James

Lexilogio wrote:
Yes, I agree with Shaker. There are a couple of issues behind this question:

1. If a Christian is simply someone who follows Christ (regardless of success - they merely profess to follow), then it becomes very inclusive.
2. If to be a Christian you must also meet a degree of Christian behaviours (or absolutely not meet some non-Christian behaviours), then that is not inclusive.

Fred Phelps is an interesting example here. He professes to follow Christ. Yet many of his views and ways of behaviour many would describe as antithetic to Christ. So if someone teaches ways which are anti Christ's teachings, yet professes to follow Christ.... where does that leave us? Is he a Christian or not? Does it come down to interpretation of Christ's teachings? Who is the arbiter? Should there be an agreed set of principles under which the term, "Christian" is used?


I have no doubt that FP has an interpretation of Christ's teaching which supports the way he acts. So as far as he is concerned, he is a Christian.

The same thing applies to all Christians.
Jim

Actually, Len, the term 'Christian' was first coined (see the book of Acts) by those who looked at the early followers of Jesus. It may well have been slightly mocking in tone.

Early followers of Jesus simply said that they were followers of "The Way".

So, as in Acts, others might tag the name 'Christian" onto us...and judge all by the label - in error.
That's why I use the term 'believers' a lot.
I could use "Followers of the Way" - and that would, of course be correct for those who accept Christ.
I don't though, as there is a cult "One way Pentecostalism" which is dubious in its' actions, and I doubt that I would really wish to be seen as an adherant.
Leonard James

Jim wrote:
Actually, Len, the term 'Christian' was first coined (see the book of Acts) by those who looked at the early followers of Jesus. It may well have been slightly mocking in tone.

Early followers of Jesus simply said that they were followers of "The Way".

So, as in Acts, others might tag the name 'Christian" onto us...and judge all by the label - in error.
That's why I use the term 'believers' a lot.
I could use "Followers of the Way" - and that would, of course be correct for those who accept Christ.
I don't though, as there is a cult "One way Pentecostalism" which is dubious in its' actions, and I doubt that I would really wish to be seen as an adherant.


I'm sure what you say can be correct, but that in no way alters what I have said. Christians are people who in their own minds are following the teachings of Jesus.

It is a great pity that he talked so much, leaving it all wide open to interpretation. If he had just stuck to "Love God and your neighbour" there would have been less material to argue over ... but of course, with only that phrase Christianity would never have got off the ground.  
LeClerc

Re: Lets start again... what makes a Christian?

Hi Lexi

Lexilogio wrote:
Since Trents thread was so quickly derailed with insults - lets start again.

What makes a Christian?


A Christian, is a descendant of adam, to whom the Son (Y'shua The Messiah) has chosen to reveal The Father.

Matthew 11
27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

LeClerc
Jim

Good to see you posting, LeClerc
Leonard James

Re: Lets start again... what makes a Christian?

LeClerc wrote:
Hi Lexi

Lexilogio wrote:
Since Trents thread was so quickly derailed with insults - lets start again.

What makes a Christian?


A Christian, is a descendant of adam, to whom the Son (Y'shua The Messiah) has chosen to reveal The Father.

Matthew 11
27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

LeClerc


Everybody is a descendant of Adam, if you believe the Eden story. Christians are only those people who do their best to follow the teaching of Jesus, as they understand it.
Derek

Re: Lets start again... what makes a Christian?

Leonard James wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi Lexi

Lexilogio wrote:
Since Trents thread was so quickly derailed with insults - lets start again.

What makes a Christian?


A Christian, is a descendant of adam, to whom the Son (Y'shua The Messiah) has chosen to reveal The Father.

Matthew 11
27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

LeClerc


Everybody is a descendant of Adam, if you believe the Eden story. Christians are only those people who do their best to follow the teaching of Jesus, as they understand it.


 
LeClerc

Hi Jim

Jim wrote:
Good to see you posting, LeClerc


Thank you Jim, hope all is well with you.

LeClerc
LeClerc

Re: Lets start again... what makes a Christian?

Hi Leonard

Leonard James wrote:

Everybody is a descendant of Adam, if you believe the Eden story.


The thing about truth is that it exists beyond belief. It is true even if nobody believes it.

From what you have posted Leonard it appears you are saying that whether one is a descendant of adam or not, is dependant on what one believes.


Leonard James wrote:

Christians are only those people who do their best to follow the teaching of Jesus, as they understand it.


Leonard, are you saying that is it possible not to believe the teachings of The Messiah, Y’shua, and still be a Christian ?

John 14
6 Yeshua said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me
7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on, you know him, and have seen him."


LeClerc
Leonard James

Re: Lets start again... what makes a Christian?

LeClerc wrote:
 

The thing about truth is that it exists beyond belief. It is true even if nobody believes it.


Of course! Have I said anything that contradicts that?

Quote:
From what you have posted Leonard it appears you are saying that whether one is a descendant of adam or not, is dependant on what one believes.


Well, of course it is! I don't believe I'm a descendant of Adam because I don't believe the Eden story.

Quote:
Leonard, are you saying that is it possible not to believe the teachings of The Messiah, Y’shua, and still be a Christian ?


Of course not! I have never said any such daft thing. I repeat ... a Christian is somebody who lives according to his interpretation of Christ's teaching.
LeClerc

Re: Lets start again... what makes a Christian?

Hi Leonard

Leonard James wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
 

The thing about truth is that it exists beyond belief. It is true even if nobody believes it.


Of course! Have I said anything that contradicts that?


Applying what you have said above to your following statement.

Leonard James wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
 
From what you have posted Leonard it appears you are saying that whether one is a descendant of adam or not, is dependent on what one believes.


Well, of course it is! I don't believe I'm a descendant of Adam because I don't believe the Eden story.


Just because you do not believe you are a descendant of adam because you do not believe, as you put it, the Eden story, does not alter the truth of YHWH’s word that you are a descendant of adam.

‘’The thing about truth is that it exists beyond belief. It is true even if nobody believes it’’ which you have said ‘’of course too’’ (see your post above) or are you now contradicting what you have said ?

Leonard James wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
 
Leonard, are you saying that is it possible not to believe the teachings of The Messiah, Y’shua, and still be a Christian ?


Of course not! I have never said any such daft thing. I repeat ... a Christian is somebody who lives according to his interpretation of Christ's teaching.


How would you expect a Christian to interpret the following?

John 17
17 ‘’Sanctify them by your truth, your word is truth’’

Regards

LeClerc
Shaker

Re: Lets start again... what makes a Christian?

LeClerc wrote:
Just because you do not believe you are a descendant of adam because you do not believe, as you put it, the Eden story, does not alter the truth of YHWH’s word that you are a descendant of adam.

‘’The thing about truth is that it exists beyond belief. It is true even if nobody believes it’’ which you have said ‘’of course too’’ (see your post above) or are you now contradicting what you have said ?

Allow me to interject. There is absolutely no demonstration that there is any truth whatsoever in "YHWH's word that [anyone] is a descendant of Adam." That's just an old story which only the terminally credulous would take to be literally, on-its-face true. No population which suffers a genetic bottleneck of just two fertile organisms can survive. The story ('tis just that - a myth) of Adam and Eve is refuted by genetics alone.
Derek

LeClerc

Quote:
Of course not! I have never said any such daft thing. I repeat ... a Christian is somebody who lives according to his interpretation of Christ's teaching


In my opinion, Len has hit the nail square on the head. He could not have define the word Christian any better.

If you lived your life according to the teachings of Christ without faith in his name then you are a nice person but you are not a Christian. One has to believe in Christ.

Ralph
Derek

Re: Lets start again... what makes a Christian?

Shaker wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Just because you do not believe you are a descendant of adam because you do not believe, as you put it, the Eden story, does not alter the truth of YHWH’s word that you are a descendant of adam.

‘’The thing about truth is that it exists beyond belief. It is true even if nobody believes it’’ which you have said ‘’of course too’’ (see your post above) or are you now contradicting what you have said ?

Allow me to interject. There is absolutely no demonstration that there is any truth whatsoever in "YHWH's word that [anyone] is a descendant of Adam." That's just an old story which only the terminally credulous would take to be literally, on-its-face true. No population which suffers a genetic bottleneck of just two fertile organisms can survive. The story ('tis just that - a myth) of Adam and Eve is refuted by genetics alone.


And your evidence to substantiate your claims is. Words are empty without evidence. Please can you fill them. I am a Christian and have no evidence how the creation occurred yet you authoritatively tell us that you know.
Shaker

Re: Lets start again... what makes a Christian?

Ralph2 wrote:
And your evidence to substantiate your claims is. Words are empty without evidence. Please can you fill them. I am a Christian and have no evidence how the creation occurred yet you authoritatively tell us that you know.

I never said anything about the creation. Neither did Lenny. Neither did LeClerc, come to that, actually. Nothing at all.

What we're dealing with here is the origin of the human species. There's a fake, untrue, mythical, pre-scientific explanation (Adam and Eve is but one of many; there are tons of others from around the world, all having in common the unifying factor that they were the only way pre-scientific cultures had of attempting to explain the unknown) and then there's the real one which is supported by evidence and which is easily ascertainable in an embarrassment of riches of accessible, reader-friendly, non-technical books and websites.

Quote:
Words are empty without evidence.

You can be sure I'm going to remember and use that one a lot, Delly  
Leonard James

Re: Lets start again... what makes a Christian?

LeClerc wrote:
Hi Leonard

Just because you do not believe you are a descendant of adam because you do not believe, as you put it, the Eden story, does not alter the truth of YHWH’s word that you are a descendant of adam.


But you have no way of showing that such words ARE the truth. Don't you see that? It is just something you believe.



Quote:
How would you expect a Christian to interpret the following?

John 17
17 ‘’Sanctify them by your truth, your word is truth’’


I have no idea ... you must ask the Christians ... and suspect that you will get a number of different answers.
Derek

Re: Lets start again... what makes a Christian?

LeClerc
Quote:

How would you expect a Christian to interpret the following?

John 17
17 ‘’Sanctify them by your truth, your word is truth’’

Regards

LeClerc


Well Christ is talking after his resurrection into perfection about the disciples and saints. He is asking us to sanctify them, which Christians do. So by verbalizing our support for the disciples and saints we sanctify them. The chapter contains where Jesus offers the great Intercessory Prayer
LeClerc

Re: Lets start again... what makes a Christian?

Hi Shaker

Maybe this calls for a new thread however.

Shaker wrote:

Allow me to interject. There is absolutely no demonstration that there is any truth whatsoever in "YHWH's word that [anyone] is a descendant of Adam." That's just an old story which only the terminally credulous would take to be literally, on-its-face true.


The Messiah's resurrection proves the truth of YHWH's word.


Shaker wrote:

No population which suffers a genetic bottleneck of just two fertile organisms can survive. The story ('tis just that - a myth) of Adam and Eve is refuted by genetics alone.


Please explain how through genetic mutation and natural selection the male and female sexual organs were formed and how the intermediate life forms managed to reproduce while this mutation was taking place ?

Regards

LeClerc
Shaker

Re: Lets start again... what makes a Christian?

LeClerc wrote:
The Messiah's resurrection proves the truth of YHWH's word.

Sorry, nothing of the kind. You merely kick the issue back a further step, by substituting one utterly unevidenced, unproven, implausible and, let's face it, downright obviously mythological event (Adam and Eve; garden of Eden, etc.) for another (the reanimated corpse of an ancient Middle Eastern woodwork enthusiast). This is along the lines of trying to "explain" the Earth by saying that it rests on the back of a turtle, and then, when asked what supports the turtle, saying "Well, it's turtles all the way down." You don't solve any issue by merely multiplying preposterous events.

Quote:
Please explain how through genetic mutation and natural selection the male and female sexual organs were formed and how the intermediate life forms managed to reproduce while this mutation was taking place ?

Regards

LeClerc

It's quite unnecessary to go even this far when - as I'm sure you're aware - there are organisms in the world, and no shortage of them either, which (a) either have no definable gender as we know it or have elements of two genders, sometimes simultaneously and sometimes sequentially and (b) there are organisms which reproduce asexually. Given these facts you're actually taking on a far bigger chunk of evolutionary biology than you need to to do whatever it is you think you're trying to do. You're trying to prove too much.

I should add a third clause as well, which may perhaps be the most important of all and well worth remembering: (c) even if your questions couldn't be answered, they don't strengthen whatever case you think you may have. A's "Nobody knows for sure: the best minds in the relevant field are still working on it by all the usually reliable methods of evidence collection, hypothesis testing and theory formation" doesn't hand the field to B's wildly preposterous and fanciful claims. This isn't one of those zero sum games: if one side cannot provide an absolutely full-and-coherent-in-every-detail account of this or that, the other side doesn't win by default for that reason. Some people - creationists are absolutely notorious for this, amongst many other equally silly and obnoxious things - like to make out that this is the case, but it isn't.
LeClerc

Hi Ralph

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, my time on here is limited.

Ralph2 wrote:
If you lived your life according to the teachings of Christ without faith in his name then you are a nice person but you are not a Christian. One has to believe in Christ.


Agreed Ralph, maybe we can expand on this further.

Lexi has asked the question, What makes a Christian? rather than what is a Christian?

I believe two steps are involved in the making of a Christian and those two steps define what a Christian is.

It is YHWH who makes a Christian through two steps.

Those steps are grace and repentance plus faith.

I include repentance and faith as one step since you cannot have one without the other unless one is walking in the flesh and not The Spirit.

YHWH completed the first step, 2000 years ago, when the Logos became flesh through the womb of Mary and was given the name Y’shua, lived amongst His people was crucified, died and was buried spending three days and three nights in the heart of the earth after which He was raised from the dead, glorified, appeared to numerous people before returning to where He came from.

Through His signs wonders and miracles and finally His resurrection Y’shua authenticated that He was The Messiah, The Son of YHWH Elohiym, in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace.

The second step is our response to what YHWH has already done for us trough the blood of His Son.

If one repents (turns from one sins) and truly believes in one’s heart that Y’shua is Israel’s promised Messiah, The Son of God, one is immersed into the name of Y’shua through the Ruach Ha-Kodesh, and the Ruach Ha-Kodesh indwells and seals the believer as a guarantee and through whom the believer cries Abba Father.

Galatians 4
6 And because you are sons, God sent out the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, "Abba, Father!"

It is the Son who chooses to reveals the Father to the believer through His Spirit.

The believer, then cleansed of sin from the inside out through the blood of Messiah, the Ruach Ha-Kodesh begins to produce the fruit of the Ruach Ha-Kodesh in the believers life which those around the believer begin to see.

If one attempts to follow Messiah in the flesh without believing on the Messiah’s name one is just a white washed tomb, appearing clean on the outside, but inside still filthy.
A true believer in Messiah is first cleansed on the inside producing fruit on the outside not through the workings of the flesh but through the workings of the Ruach Ha-Kodesh.

In answer to Lexi’s question, what makes a Christian, only YHWH Elohiym can make one a Christian from the inside out by grace through faith in The Messiah, Y’shua.

Ephesians 2
8 for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Regards

LeClerc
bnabernard

The return of superman?

bernard (hug)
Shaker

As cryptic as ever, bern. (Or, in this case, Kryptic   ).
Lexilogio

bnabernard wrote:
The return of superman?

bernard (hug)


Is this years of reading - but I think I actually get Bernie's point here.

To really be a Christian - well, we are asking people to be Superman. And I'm not the best superhero. I don't watch much TV, but from the brief notes I've read about a series called Misfits (superhero powers but falling short?) That kind of fits!

When Christ came to Earth - he had a human body. And it is enormously difficult to measure up in a human body. It has hormones, and illness, and tiredness etc.... Its hard work! On our best days, its easier - but some days it is really really tough.

Can't help wondering if it would be easier to be a Christian if we came from Krypton....?
bnabernard

Even if you did, you would still be susceptible to the dreaded kryptonite?

bernard (hug)
Lexilogio

bnabernard wrote:
Even if you did, you would still be susceptible to the dreaded kryptonite?

bernard (hug)


 
Derek

LeClerc

Quote:
Hi Ralph

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, my time on here is limited.

Ralph2 wrote:
If you lived your life according to the teachings of Christ without faith in his name then you are a nice person but you are not a Christian. One has to believe in Christ.


Agreed Ralph, maybe we can expand on this further.

Lexi has asked the question, What makes a Christian? rather than what is a Christian?

I believe two steps are involved in the making of a Christian and those two steps define what a Christian is.

It is YHWH who makes a Christian through two steps.

Those steps are grace and repentance plus faith.


Funny you should say that. I believe that there are four steps that define what a Christian is

I believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Quote:
I include repentance and faith as one step since you cannot have one without the other unless one is walking in the flesh and not The Spirit


I agree

Quote:
YHWH completed the first step, 2000 years ago, when the Logos became flesh through the womb of Mary and was given the name Y’shua, lived amongst His people was crucified, died and was buried spending three days and three nights in the heart of the earth after which He was raised from the dead, glorified, appeared to numerous people before returning to where He came from.


Exactly what I believe, maybe I would add what I consider to be a very important function of his ministry. The Atonement.

Quote:
Through His signs wonders and miracles and finally His resurrection Y’shua authenticated that He was The Messiah, The Son of YHWH Elohiym, in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace.


Now I suffer with an element of brain washing here. I was a Mormon for 25 years and they always refer to Elohim as God the Father. That is what my brain tells me still, however, I can offer no evidence to support it.

Quote:
The second step is our response to what YHWH has already done for us trough the blood of His Son.

If one repents (turns from one sins) and truly believes in one’s heart that Y’shua is Israel’s promised Messiah, The Son of God, one is immersed into the name of Y’shua through the Ruach Ha-Kodesh, and the Ruach Ha-Kodesh indwells and seals the believer as a guarantee and through whom the believer cries Abba Father.

Galatians 4
6 And because you are sons, God sent out the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, "Abba, Father!"


Sorry LeClerc, I am not familiar with these names. I sincerely believe that without recognition, restitution and forsaking the sine that repentance is nonsensical. I also believe that only through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ can anyone have full forgiveness of their sins. Only if we pray to the father, through Jesus Christ, drawing on the power of the atonement, can we hope to be forgiven

Quote:
It is the Son who chooses to reveals the Father to the believer through His Spirit.

The believer, then cleansed of sin from the inside out through the blood of Messiah, the Ruach Ha-Kodesh begins to produce the fruit of the Ruach Ha-Kodesh in the believers life which those around the believer begin to see.


Yep, agreed. I would add that if we have the spirit to be with us then those we come into contact with will not help themselves but to feel him as well.

Quote:
If one attempts to follow Messiah in the flesh without believing on the Messiah’s name one is just a white washed tomb, appearing clean on the outside, but inside still filthy.


Now that is interesting. I know exactly what you are saying. Those people are present right here on this forum. I recognize them like I would recognize a wolf amongst the sheep. My explanation is that they draw near to God with their mouths, giving the form of godliness, but denying the power therein. It is all very well professing that you love God and promise to keep his commandments, which he has given us, only to then call your brother Raca. To claim to love one another, including to love your enemy, and then to act in such a loathsome and hateful manner to someone who positively tries to be as amicable as they can, is bordering on satanic. To enter the waters of baptism and promise God, through the name of Jesus Christ, and promise the following, only to come on here and try and destroy the mind and soul of their brothers in the gospel is white washing the outside of a dirty tomb. These people need to clean the inner vessel before claiming Jesus is their redeemer. Sorry, LeClerc, but it incenses me to see how blatantly people take the higher moral ground whilst they are sticking a knife in the backs of the children of God, and twisting it as well.

Quote:
O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it, that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him and keep his commandments which he has given them; that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.


Quote:
A true believer in Messiah is first cleansed on the inside producing fruit on the outside not through the workings of the flesh but through the workings of the Ruach Ha-Kodesh.


Yes, Yes, Yes, and emphatically, Yes. Of course. That is what I am saying. First take on the name of Christ in its entirety and receive the Holy Ghost as your constant companion after which your continuance will testify of him, even Jesus the Christ, in all you do and say.

Nice post. Really enjoyed reading it and giving my response to it.

Tell me, when you wrote this, did the spirit of God guide your hand, or was it straight from your own knowledge.
Ketty

Ralph2 wrote:
 
 

Ralph2 wrote:
Now that is interesting. I know exactly what you are saying. Those people are present right here on this forum.


So true, I agree: they're more slippery than a barrel load of eels and are full of bull and bluster and bare faced lies.  
LeClerc

Re: Lets start again... what makes a Christian?

Hi Leonard

Leonard James wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi Leonard

Just because you do not believe you are a descendant of adam because you do not believe, as you put it, the Eden story, does not alter the truth of YHWH’s word that you are a descendant of adam.


But you have no way of showing that such words ARE the truth. Don't you see that? It is just something you believe.


Do you believe that you are a descendant of man or do you believe that you are a descendant of another species ?

Regards

LeClerc
Shaker

Re: Lets start again... what makes a Christian?

LeClerc wrote:
Hi Leonard

Leonard James wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi Leonard

Just because you do not believe you are a descendant of adam because you do not believe, as you put it, the Eden story, does not alter the truth of YHWH’s word that you are a descendant of adam.


But you have no way of showing that such words ARE the truth. Don't you see that? It is just something you believe.


Do you believe that you are a descendant of man or do you believe that you are a descendant of another species ?

Regards

LeClerc


If I may - the only accurate answer to such a question is to reply: proximately, man, ultimately, another species. Both, in other words. That's to say, it depends on your usage of the word descendant and how far you wish to go back - I am an immediate descendant of my father, but I am also a descendant of my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather: the only difference in this regard is timescale.

Immediately, Leonard's father was a man, just as was mine, yours and everyone else's. Obviously. Ultimately however - and you need to go back somewhere between 5 and 7 million years, most likely in central-eastern Africa - the lineage that would eventually become our species separated (speciated) from its parent line which included chimpanzees. That's how speciation works. The original (parent) line goes on (chimpanzees still exist, for example), while the other line branches off and becomes reproductively isolated. According to the dominant definition, the Biological Species Concept, the reproductive isolation is what makes a new, separate, distinct and discrete species. Whether there is as yet total reproductive isolation between humans and chimpanzees even after at least 5 and at most 7 million years is currently unknown because it's considered unethical to test it out practically. (Some unconfirmed and uncertain experiments from the Soviet Union in the 1920s notwithstanding).

So the simple answer to your simple question, really, is 'both', depending on how far you wish to go back.
Leonard James

Re: Lets start again... what makes a Christian?

LeClerc wrote:


Do you believe that you are a descendant of man or do you believe that you are a descendant of another species ?

Regards

LeClerc


As Shaker has already answered your question in some detail, I won't repeat it.

If you accepted and knew anything about the theory of evolution you wouldn't have asked the question ... so I assume you refuse to believe it, and that is a brick wall I can do nothing to knock down.  
Shaker

Re: Lets start again... what makes a Christian?

Leonard James wrote:
LeClerc wrote:


Do you believe that you are a descendant of man or do you believe that you are a descendant of another species ?

Regards

LeClerc


As Shaker has already answered your question in some detail, I won't repeat it.

If you accepted and knew anything about the theory of evolution you wouldn't have asked the question ... so I assume you refuse to believe it, and that is a brick wall I can do nothing to knock down.  

Len: I wasn't trying to speak on your behalf - the question was asked of you after all - but I have to admit that I did think you would answer pretty much along the same lines as I did  
Leonard James

Re: Lets start again... what makes a Christian?

Shaker wrote:

Len: I wasn't trying to speak on your behalf - the question was asked of you after all - but I have to admit that I did think you would answer pretty much along the same lines as I did  


Absolutely, Steve! In fact you gave much more detail than I would have done, which is all to the good.

We who know and understand the theory fairly well, can easily fall into the trap of thinking that everybody else does, too ... and it ain't always so.  
LeClerc

Hi Ralph

Thank you for your reply, I hope we can have an edifying discussion over the comments you have made.

Ralph2 wrote:

Now I suffer with an element of brain washing here. I was a Mormon for 25 years and they always refer to Elohim as God the Father. That is what my brain tells me still, however, I can offer no evidence to support it.


In the King James Version

Exodus 22
9 For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for ass, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.

Which Hebrew word from the Masoretic text, have the King James translators, translated into the English word ‘’judges’’ ?

Regards

LeClerc
Derek

LeClerc wrote:
Hi Ralph

Thank you for your reply, I hope we can have an edifying discussion over the comments you have made.

Ralph2 wrote:

Now I suffer with an element of brain washing here. I was a Mormon for 25 years and they always refer to Elohim as God the Father. That is what my brain tells me still, however, I can offer no evidence to support it.


In the King James Version

Exodus 22
9 For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for ass, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.

Which Hebrew word from the Masoretic text, have the King James translators, translated into the English word ‘’judges’’ ?

Regards

LeClerc


As God will be out judge I am assuming that judge means God, I sort of assumed that anyway, however, that does not tell me if Elohim is God or Jesus Christ. As I said, I have sort of been brainwashed into believing he is but to be honest I have not read anything that confirm that
Ketty

Ralph2 wrote:
As I said, I have sort of been brainwashed into believing he is but to be honest I have not read anything that confirm that


This may help you "Ralph": http://nglreturns.myfreeforum.org/about3199.html
LeClerc

Hi Ralph

Ralph2 wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi Ralph

Thank you for your reply, I hope we can have an edifying discussion over the comments you have made.

Ralph2 wrote:

Now I suffer with an element of brain washing here. I was a Mormon for 25 years and they always refer to Elohim as God the Father. That is what my brain tells me still, however, I can offer no evidence to support it.


In the King James Version

Exodus 22
9 For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for ass, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.

Which Hebrew word from the Masoretic text, have the King James translators, translated into the English word ‘’judges’’ ?

Regards

LeClerc


As God will be out judge I am assuming that judge means God, I sort of assumed that anyway, however, that does not tell me if Elohim is God or Jesus Christ. As I said, I have sort of been brainwashed into believing he is but to be honest I have not read anything that confirm that


Thanks for your reply Ralph there is much to discuss here since it relates to what Messiah Y'shua says here.

John 10
31 Once again the Judeans picked up rocks in order to stone him. 32 Yeshua answered them, “You have seen me do many good deeds that reflect the Father’s power; for which one of these deeds are you stoning me?” 33 The Judeans replied, “We are not stoning you for any good deed, but for blasphemy — because you, who are only a man, are making yourself out to be God .” 34 Yeshua answered them, “Isn’t it written in your Torah, ‘I have said, “You people are Elohim’ ”? 35 If he called ‘elohim’ the people to whom the word of Elohim was addressed (and the Tanakh cannot be broken), 36 then are you telling the one whom the Father set apart as holy and sent into the world, ‘You are committing blasphemy,’ just because I said, ‘I am a son of Elohim’?

Will get back to you on this.

Regards

LeClerc
LeClerc

Morning Ralph.

Continuing our duscussion.

Deuteronomy 19 KJV
18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;

Were the judges in the above passage, adam (man).

Regards

LeClerc
LeClerc

Morning Ralph

Ralph2 wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi Ralph

Thank you for your reply, I hope we can have an edifying discussion over the comments you have made.

Ralph2 wrote:

Now I suffer with an element of brain washing here. I was a Mormon for 25 years and they always refer to Elohim as God the Father. That is what my brain tells me still, however, I can offer no evidence to support it.


In the King James Version

Exodus 22
9 For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for ass, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.

Which Hebrew word from the Masoretic text, have the King James translators, translated into the English word ‘’judges’’ ?

Regards

LeClerc


As God will be out judge I am assuming that judge means God, I sort of assumed that anyway, however, that does not tell me if Elohim is God or Jesus Christ. As I said, I have sort of been brainwashed into believing he is but to be honest I have not read anything that confirm that


Continuing our discussion.

Deuteronomy 19 KJV
18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;

Were the judges in the above passage, adam (man)?

Regards

LeClerc
bnabernard

Was Jesus adam/Adam ?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Was Jesus adam/Adam ?

bernard (hug)


The Logos of YHWH was born in the likeness of ‘’adam’’ (man) through the womb of Miryam by the power of the Ruach Hakodesh, so becoming flesh, and was given the name Y’shua.

Regards

LeClerc
bnabernard

However I thought Adam was created in the likeness of God?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
However I thought Adam was created in the likeness of God?

bernard (hug)


Is this ''Adam'' you are referring too ?

Genesis 5 KJV
1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.


Regards

LeClerc
bnabernard

Gen 5:1


This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

Seems to fit the bill.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Gen 5:1


This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

Seems to fit the bill.

bernard (hug)


and the next verse Bernie does that as you put it ''fit the bill'' ?

Genesis 5
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Regards

LeClerc
bnabernard

Do you think there is any contradiction between him and them?

If not why?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Do you think there is any contradiction between him and them?

If not why?

bernard (hug)


It is down to translation Bernie

Here is Genesis 5 verse 1 from the NIV
This is the written account of Adam’s family line. When God created mankind, he made them in the likeness of God.

Regards

LeClerc
bnabernard

So you don't think the bible is worth the paper its writ on as in it can only be used as a rough guide and needs plenty of back study to understand the one on the shelf?

Would you say that most religeous teachers fluff the issues?


bernard (hug)
bnabernard

I wonder how far up the road this will go before LC gets back to the point of man being created in Gods likeness so therefore Jesus was, as a man, in Gods likeness, and ever if ever give his reasoning.
Or will we end up back talking about how Abram was talking to a man who was God.

bernard (hug)

Paint drying again  
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
So you don't think the bible is worth the paper its writ on as in it can only be used as a rough guide and needs plenty of back study to understand the one on the shelf?

Would you say that most religeous teachers fluff the issues?


bernard (hug)


That is not what I'm saying, The Scriptures answer your question.

2 Timothy 3 CJB
14 But you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, recalling the people from whom you learned it; 15 and recalling too how from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which can give you the wisdom that leads to deliverance through trusting in Yeshua the Messiah. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is valuable for teaching the truth, convicting of sin, correcting faults and training in right living; 17 thus anyone who belongs to God may be fully equipped for every good work.

Regards

LeClerc
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
I wonder how far up the road this will go before LC gets back to the point of man being created in Gods likeness so therefore Jesus was, as a man, in Gods likeness, and ever if ever give his reasoning.
Or will we end up back talking about how Abram was talking to a man who was God.

bernard (hug)

Paint drying again  


The Logos was not created.

YHWH is The Logos.



Regards

LeClerc
bnabernard

Is the logos Adam?
Is Jesus Adam?


bernard (hug)

As to the first post, why should I trust the scripture you post?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Is the logos Adam?
Is Jesus Adam?


Scripture answers your questions Bernie.

The Logos (Word) became flesh,

John 1 Aramaic Bible in Plain English
14And The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

and was given the name Y'shua.

Matthew 1 Aramaic Bible in Plain English
21“And she shall bring forth a Son, and she shall call his name Yeshua, for he shall save his people from their sins.”

Quote:
As to the first post, why should I trust the scripture you post?


Bernie, do you trust this passage of scripture ?

John 1 Aramaic Bible Plain English
1In the origin The Word had been existing and That Word had been existing with God and That Word was himself God.

Regards

LeClerc
bnabernard

Why should the passage you quote be any more reliable than any other, after all it is a translation and in terms an opinion of a meaning rather than the meaning.
The word, one mans opinoin of the word differs from one to another and in most cases delivers a totaly unrealistic outcome.

Are you able to deliver the truth when so many fail?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Morning Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Why should the passage you quote be any more reliable than any other, after all it is a translation and in terms an opinion of a meaning rather than the meaning.
The word, one mans opinoin of the word differs from one to another and in most cases delivers a totaly unrealistic outcome.

Are you able to deliver the truth when so many fail?

bernard (hug)


We could go to the extant Greek manuscripts.

John 1
1 Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος

You can refer to the interlinear here

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/1-1.htm

Regards

LeClerc
bnabernard

Was the logos made flesh to appear to Abram?

bernard (hug)
bnabernard

Was the logos made flesh to appear to Abram?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Morning Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Was the logos made flesh to appear to Abram?

bernard (hug)


Was the Logos made flesh through the womb of a woman to appear to Abram ?

No.

Regards

LeClerc
bnabernard

Not sure what question you are answering, mine was,
Was the logas made flesh to appear to Abram?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Not sure what question you are answering, mine was,
Was the logas made flesh to appear to Abram?

bernard (hug)


Your question has been answered but it seems you fail to understand, maybe this will help.

Judges 13
11 Manoah immediately followed his wife. When he came to the man, he asked him, “Are you the man who spoke to my wife?”

Was the Messenger of YHWH made flesh to appear to Manoah ?

Regards

LeClerc
bnabernard

So no answer just another question then.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
So no answer just another question then.

bernard (hug)


If you answer the question asked, you have your answer.

Judges 13
11 Manoah immediately followed his wife. When he came to the man, he asked him, “Are you the man who spoke to my wife?”

Was the Messenger of YHWH made flesh to appear to Manoah ?

Regards

LeClerc
bnabernard

Again YOU fail to answer the question.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Again YOU fail to answer the question.

bernard (hug)


No Bernie, The Scriptures answer your question.



Regards

LeClerc
bnabernard

'll remind you of the question as it seems to have slipped your mind, perhaps you had superman on your mind and got trapped in thinking of samson.
Abram/Abraham is the person referenced in my question and is not mentioned in the scripture you reference.
Come now, is your memory so short?


bnabernard wrote:
Was the logos made flesh to appear to Abram?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
'll remind you of the question as it seems to have slipped your mind, perhaps you had superman on your mind and got trapped in thinking of samson.
Abram/Abraham is the person referenced in my question and is not mentioned in the scripture you reference.
Come now, is your memory so short?

bnabernard wrote:
Was the logos made flesh to appear to Abram?

bernard (hug)


Okay let’s go back over what you have posted.


bnabernard wrote:
Was the logos made flesh to appear to Abram?

bernard (hug)


You agree that the Logos appeared to Abram.

Turning to Genesis 17
17 When Avram was 99 years old YHWH appeared to Avram and said to him, “I am El Shaddai [God Almighty]. Walk in my presence and be pure-hearted.

You agree then that El Shaddai ( God Almighty) is The Logos.

I have answered your question below.

LeClerc wrote:
Morning Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Was the logos made flesh to appear to Abram?

bernard (hug)


Was the Logos made flesh through the womb of a woman to appear to Abram ?

No.

Regards

LeClerc


However it appears you do not understand my answer so if I may I will refer you to a post you made on another thread.

bnabernard wrote:

The body, the flesh, can only be construed as created it is made up of atoms and is in a continual state of creation, the water content on it's own, hydrogen and oxygen, the sugars and the starches, etc etc etc, from a what, 10 lb child to a ten stone man, hair growth nail growth, all the product of creation.
bernard (hug)


Now Bernie if The Logos was made flesh to appear to Abram, when and how was that flesh made, since according to your post above the flesh must at one point have been as you have put it a 10 lb child and I presume that 10lb child must have been born through a mother’s womb, maybe now do you understand when I replied previously with,

Was the Logos made flesh through the womb of a woman to appear to Abram ?

No

I can only come to the conclusion Bernie that your previous post has answered your own question.

Regards

LeClerc
bnabernard

Quote:
You agree that the Logos appeared to Abram.


er now you must lay off the christmass spirit it appears to be making your head fuzzy.

You even refer to my example of a 10lb baby in a similar vien using it as an absolute rather than an definition of flesh in it's creative progression from child to adult, the slapping on of atoms one might say.

I fear that such vision as yours in understanding my post's gives scant trust to how you evaluate scripture.

perhaps you can show me where in my question regarding Abram I agree to anything?


bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Quote:
You agree that the Logos appeared to Abram.


er now you must lay off the christmass spirit it appears to be making your head fuzzy.

You even refer to my example of a 10lb baby in a similar vien using it as an absolute rather than an definition of flesh in it's creative progression from child to adult, the slapping on of atoms one might say.

I fear that such vision as yours in understanding my post's gives scant trust to how you evaluate scripture.

perhaps you can show me where in my question regarding Abram I agree to anything?


bernard (hug)


Okay Bernie you have posted

bnabernard wrote:
Was the logos made flesh to appear to Abram?

bernard (hug)


In the above post you are saying The Logos appeared to Abram, the question you are asking is was the Logos made flesh to appear.

Regards

LeClerc
bnabernard

LC, LC, LC, when you confuse questions with statements what hope is there for you?
There is certainly no chance of a valid discussion, or the hope of a meaningful discussion, and absolutely no chance of any trust as I shall be refered to as having believed in something I have not sanctioned.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie.

bnabernard wrote:
LC, LC, LC, when you confuse questions with statements what hope is there for you?
There is certainly no chance of a valid discussion, or the hope of a meaningful discussion, and absolutely no chance of any trust as I shall be refered to as having believed in something I have not sanctioned.

bernard (hug)


I can only quote what you have posted Bernie.

bnabernard wrote:
Was the logos made flesh to appear to Abram?

bernard (hug)


In the above it is clear you are saying the Logos appeared to Abram what you are asking is, was the Logos made flesh to appear ?

Also could you explain what ''can only be construed as'' means ?

Regards

LeClerc
bnabernard

I have not even said that the logos appeared to Abram, what I asked was; was the logos made flesh to appear to Abram.

You may have construed a meaning however you are led by what is in your mind not in mine a presumptiom perhaps?


bernard (hug)
Farmer Geddon

Bernie now you're back maybe we can get a balanced view..

Eating an egg, sausage (Lorne), and bacon buttie right now.. but I read the 1st 5 pages of this thread and nobody, but nobody has addressed Lexi's question.. they've succeeded in changing it to fit their agenda.. but not actually answered it.

I'll munch my way through the rest of my buttie and read the rest, but I doubt I'll find a proper response to A's question.....
bnabernard

Hi FG cholestrol springs to mind   (and a tinge of jealousy   )
If we are looking for an answer as to what makes a christian then we got a pretty inconclusive field to work with as christians make up a strange baggatelle of self appointed wot nots.
''I follow christ therefore I am a christian'' however it's like animal farm where equality is a matter of degree and ultimate power of enforcement generated by iether greater might or best spin.
Generaly a christian is someone who folllows Paul.

The crunch appears to come with the indwelling of the 'holy spirit', a christian is willing to admit that previous people guided by the holy spirit got it  wrong and that today they have the holy spirit with added blue chrystles and are able to produce a cleaner more acceptable christian.
Of course a decade or so further down the line the chrystles will be improved as the holy spirit begins new revelation.

I think LC helps the case of what makes a christian, as he shows that you cannot get christianity off the shelf, that it would mean, to be a true christian, a life of dedicated study which may or may not be fruitful.

The general rule of thumb it would seem would be to stick to the golden rule of doing unto others that which you would do for yourself, however caveats abound all the while their is something glittering in the corner or an unequal equality.

I'm eating a lemon sandwich  

bernard (hug)
Farmer Geddon

1st answer should be where does the phrase "Christian" originate from?

If someone says Acts, I will defecate all over their post..
bnabernard

I'll have a shot then.

It would seem that the Jesus announced himself as the way, his followers said they followed the way. However if a ordinary person who followed the way said that they were the way then it would sound a bit egotistical, so they devised themselves of a name for Jesus as the christ and called themselves followers of the christ which became christians.

Thing is the way got seperated and whats left is a bit cheesy.

bernard (hug)
bnabernard

However I reckon you won't get an answer from a 'christian' for a while, they all seem to be down the collusium throwing each other to the lions  

bernard (hug)
trentvoyager

bnabernard wrote:
However I reckon you won't get an answer from a 'christian' for a while, they all seem to be down the collusium throwing each other to the lions  

bernard (hug)


 
Jim

Bernie:
As you well know, 'Christ' is no name...Jesusus would have been Yeshua barYosef.
'Christ' is a job description!
Lexilogio

Farmer Geddon wrote:
Bernie now you're back maybe we can get a balanced view..

Eating an egg, sausage (Lorne), and bacon buttie right now.. but I read the 1st 5 pages of this thread and nobody, but nobody has addressed Lexi's question.. they've succeeded in changing it to fit their agenda.. but not actually answered it.

I'll munch my way through the rest of my buttie and read the rest, but I doubt I'll find a proper response to A's question.....


I know. I'm not sure anyone will really.

But then, its harder than it first appears. As I've said before, we could argue that its anyone who says they follow Christ - but most people seem to agree that there has to be an element of "living the words". But if we said people had to behave in a Christlike way, then the numbers of genuine Christians on the planet would probably drop to a handful.

But how can you call the likes of the Phelps family, "Christian"? Unless the term is merely a descriptor of how people describe themselves?

Maybe there needs to be a charter for Christianity?

1. Calls themselves Christian
2. Reads the Bible
3. Believes in Jesus as the way to God.
4. Exhibits love and tolerance towards others?
5. Has been baptised
6. Prays
7. Shares in the sacrament / eucharist / communion
8. Gives to charity (money, time, resource, assistance)

What about attendance? Are those who call themselves Christian, & say they have been baptised, but haven't been to church in years - still Christian?
bnabernard

Jim wrote:
Bernie:
As you well know, 'Christ' is no name...Jesusus would have been Yeshua barYosef.
'Christ' is a job description!


Greeks at it again, what happened to messiah as a job description.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Morning Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
I have not even said that the logos appeared to Abram, what I asked was; was the logos made flesh to appear to Abram.

You may have construed a meaning however you are led by what is in your mind not in mine a presumptiom perhaps?


bernard (hug)


I apologise for presuming too much.

However if you are not saying the Logos appeared to Abram in your question then what are you asking ?

If I may post the following, in the hope it answers your question.

In Genesis 18, YHWH's Logos appeared to Abram in the form of man, accompanied by two Mal'ak, who also took the form of man.

In your question you have mentioned ''flesh''. Did those who appeared to Abram have bodies of human flesh if so Scripture teaches us that the life of the flesh is in the blood.

Leviticus 17
11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood

Did those who appeared to Abram have flesh whose life was not in the blood but in The Spirit ?

Leaving that there for the moment and moving on.

A Christian is a disciple of the Messsiah Y'shua of Nazareth, The disciples, Greek ''mathētēs''  of Y'shua of Nazareth were first called ''Christianos'' by those residing in Antioch.

If a Christian is a disciple, Greek ''mathētēs'' of Y'shua of Nazareth the question should be, what makes a person a disciple ?

Now applying Hebraic understanding

Who or What is a Talmidim?

Talmid is a Hebrew word (masculine) that means disciple.  Talmidim is the plural – disciples. To be a talmid or talmidah is a strong statement.  It means you are devoted to Y'shua (Jesus), fixated on learning scriptures, putting them into action, and to become like Him by the grace of YHWH through the power of The Set Apart Spirit.

Regards

LeClerc

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