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Boss Cat

Mary

It's May so it's a good time to discuss Mary, by whom I am a bit perplexed.

I was brought up an Anglo Catholic tradition in a church dedicated to Mary and I was taught she was a wonderful image of womanhood because she was obedient and trusting and humble and passive.  And sexless.

I found her a bit of a turn off, to be honest, all wishy washy ideals of what certain men want a woman to be.

Now I think she wasn't just obedient and trusting, she was wise and shrewd.  Lots of people can get themselves - and everyone else - into big trouble by being just obedient and trusting.  And she was strong and brave and subversive too.

And she had lots of children.

We kind of ignored that.  Why?
Jim

Re: Mary

I think the third generation Church leaders tried to 'big up' Mary as a kind of substitute for the favourite female gods - Venus, Diana, Hathior/Isis, etc.
The perpetual virgin thin fitted in quite nicely - even if it was unscriptural.
The rest sort of accumulated later.
There is no scriptural evidence for a 'queen of heaven.".
Farmer Geddon

I do wonder if "Mary" is the fable/myth of the NT instead of the Jesus that is usually put forward??
Paul

Same old pony! The belief in the perpetual virginity of the Theotokos comes from Mary herself, I would argue, and in her knowledge of the one who she carried in her womb.
Jim

Surely the Gospel record disputes that - even gives names to some of Jesus' brothers?
Or were they step children?
Either way, a former teacher of mine  - once professor of NT Greek at Glasgow Uni, later Archbishop of Great Britain and Thyatira (Orthodox), was perfectly content that Mary was an ordinary girl chosen for an extraordinary purpose, and later allowed to enjoy an ordinary family life - with all that means.
He also agreed that, while Mary was a subject for devotion - a point vigorously opposed by those of us who were not Orthodox! - he also maintained that an unhealthy cult of mariolatry had developed round her, diminishing the suprenacy of Christ.
Boss Cat

I think that too, Jim.  I think Mary was an ordinary person with extraordinary wisdom, courage and strength.  But I don't think the church has liked strong women so changed her into a passive vessel of unquestioning obedience and held that up as a role model for an ideal of womanhood, virgin and mother.

I am more interested in Mary now.

I thought James was Jesus's brother, wasn't he?
Jim

According to the NT - and the original Koine Greek, yes, James was the brother - in the familial sense - of Jesus, presumably by Mary and Joseph.
Paul

James and the rest of Jesus' brethren were children of a previous marriage of St. Joseph.

The perpetual virginity of the Theotokos points to Christ. He whom the whole world could not contain, God, dwelt in the womb of the Blessed Virgin and sanctified it. Much like when a vessel is consecrated to be used in the Divine Liturgy it becomes holy, sacred, and is no longer fit for ordinary use because it has been elevated above it.
Jim

Sorry, Paul;
There is no evidence of this in Scripture.
It wouldn't really matter what the Church Fathers said - if it was not part of Scripture, all the 'tradition' in the world would amount to precisely zilch.
Paul

It is the scriptures properly understood. Therefore it is entirely scriptual.
Boss Cat

How?

And of Jesus was fully human why would he not have fully human things like brothers and sisters.

I really can't see why Mary has to be a virgin; sorry.  She is more complete, accessible and holy to me as a normal woman, doing normal things.
Paul

As I said, we know this because of who the scriptures say Christ is - God. The sacred vessel similitude is most apt.

The Blessed Virgin and St. Joseph were never married. They were only betrothed to be married. The Blessed Virgin conceived of the Holy Spirit and thus is referred to by the Church as the spouse of the Holy Spirit. When St. Joseph first realised that the Blessed Virgin was pregnant, not knowing by whom she had conceived, intended to put her aside because he realised she was someone else's spouse. But St. Joseph, being the pious man he was, knew who dwelt in the womb of the Blessed Virgin once the angel had appeared to him and thus abstained from sexual relations. Both knew who the child was - God - and in that knowledge knew that it was not fitting to have any more children.
Boss Cat

Why do you think this?
Paul

The protoevangelium of James is worth a read. Whilst it wasn't actually written by St. James we do believe that the tradition comes from him. St. James, the brother of the Lord, was a child from a previous marriage of St. Joseph.
Boss Cat

I haven't read that but thank you for the reference, you clearly think about what you believe and that is very valuable.  However, I am one of those who don't find this helpful. I think this view treats Mary as a passive vessel, a figure on whom interpretations are put to fit an agenda rather than a real and vital woman of such strength and integrity. I also think ,and this is for me and only me, that this view of Mary detracts from my understanding of Jesus and his mission.
bnabernard

An interesting point is Mary and a virgin birth, bernie tends to take a trip down the lateral thinking path if he wants to make sense of it.

Life pre exists Adam.
Eve came from Adam, one body one flesh.
Jesus came from Mary, one body one flesh.

Man Adam is the father of all generations and from Adam we inherit sin/death.
So though Eve is an extension of Adam,(his other half) it is Adam that is responsible for passing death on, man has the key to death geneticaly embroiled in him.
Though his other half, woman, inherits death she cannot pass it on.

(experiments are going on for women to have their own babies without the input of men)

Now in the case of Jesus he did not have an earthly father, or no man or other half of woman had input into the genetic make up of Jesus, neither was he formed a new Adam from the dust of the ground seperate to both halfs of man, he was formed within the dust of the ground that was Eve, he effectively became a new half, a half without a key leading to death.

Jesus becomes a new Adam free from inherited sin (as they call it) and only through being disobedient to God the Spiritual Father (eternal life) could he actualy die as in become held in death.

etc etc etc

bernard (hug)
rstrats

Paul,

re:  "The Blessed Virgin and St. Joseph were never married."

The following verses would seem to indicate otherwise:

Matthew 1:24-25  ESV
When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

Matthew 1:16  ESV  
And Jacob the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.
Jim

Since Scripture clearly uses the familial diminuative for describing Jesus' brothers, Mary and Joseph were married like any normal Jewish family.
Not to have been so would have attracted a notoriety for which there is no evidence.
I honour Mary...but she is no more important than any orther God-created believer such as Peter, Paul, Martin Luther, Billy Graham or -indeed because - she was used for a purpose by God.
Jim

It is the scriptures, properly understood.
'S wot I said!
LeClerc

Morning Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
An interesting point is Mary and a virgin birth, bernie tends to take a trip down the lateral thinking path if he wants to make sense of it.

Life pre exists Adam.
Eve came from Adam, one body one flesh.
Jesus came from Mary, one body one flesh.

Man Adam is the father of all generations and from Adam we inherit sin/death.
So though Eve is an extension of Adam,(his other half) it is Adam that is responsible for passing death on, man has the key to death geneticaly embroiled in him.
Though his other half, woman, inherits death she cannot pass it on.

(experiments are going on for women to have their own babies without the input of men)

Now in the case of Jesus he did not have an earthly father, or no man or other half of woman had input into the genetic make up of Jesus, neither was he formed a new Adam from the dust of the ground seperate to both halfs of man, he was formed within the dust of the ground that was Eve, he effectively became a new half, a half without a key leading to death.

Jesus becomes a new Adam free from inherited sin (as they call it) and only through being disobedient to God the Spiritual Father (eternal life) could he actualy die as in become held in death.

etc etc etc

bernard (hug)


Genesis 3
6 The woman saw that the tree had fruit that was good to eat, nice to look at, and desirable for making someone wise. So she took some of the fruit and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

Was the sin of the male ''adam'' eating of the fruit himself or was the sin of the male ''adam'' allowing his wife to eat the fruit when he knew what would happen to her ? The husband was with his wife when she ate the fruit was he not, therefore why did he not stop her ?

Genesis 3
17 Then he said to the man, “You listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree, although I commanded you, ‘You must never eat its fruit.’

The husband listened to his wife so there must have been a conversation between the two of them before they both ate.

Notice how neither will admit they are responsible for their own actions, the husband blames his wife and his wife blames the serpent.

Regards

LeClerc
bnabernard

deleted
bnabernard

LeClerc wrote:
Morning Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
An interesting point is Mary and a virgin birth, bernie tends to take a trip down the lateral thinking path if he wants to make sense of it.

Life pre exists Adam.
Eve came from Adam, one body one flesh.
Jesus came from Mary, one body one flesh.

Man Adam is the father of all generations and from Adam we inherit sin/death.
So though Eve is an extension of Adam,(his other half) it is Adam that is responsible for passing death on, man has the key to death geneticaly embroiled in him.
Though his other half, woman, inherits death she cannot pass it on.

(experiments are going on for women to have their own babies without the input of men)

Now in the case of Jesus he did not have an earthly father, or no man or other half of woman had input into the genetic make up of Jesus, neither was he formed a new Adam from the dust of the ground seperate to both halfs of man, he was formed within the dust of the ground that was Eve, he effectively became a new half, a half without a key leading to death.

Jesus becomes a new Adam free from inherited sin (as they call it) and only through being disobedient to God the Spiritual Father (eternal life) could he actualy die as in become held in death.

etc etc etc

bernard (hug)


Genesis 3
6 The woman saw that the tree had fruit that was good to eat, nice to look at, and desirable for making someone wise. So she took some of the fruit and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

Was the sin of the male ''adam'' eating of the fruit himself or was the sin of the male ''adam'' allowing his wife to eat the fruit when he knew what would happen to her ? The husband was with his wife when she ate the fruit was he not, therefore why did he not stop her ?

Genesis 3
17 Then he said to the man, “You listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree, although I commanded you, ‘You must never eat its fruit.’

The husband listened to his wife so there must have been a conversation between the two of them before they both ate.

Notice how neither will admit they are responsible for their own actions, the husband blames his wife and his wife blames the serpent.

Regards

LeClerc


And?

Bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Morning Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Morning Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
An interesting point is Mary and a virgin birth, bernie tends to take a trip down the lateral thinking path if he wants to make sense of it.

Life pre exists Adam.
Eve came from Adam, one body one flesh.
Jesus came from Mary, one body one flesh.

Man Adam is the father of all generations and from Adam we inherit sin/death.
So though Eve is an extension of Adam,(his other half) it is Adam that is responsible for passing death on, man has the key to death geneticaly embroiled in him.
Though his other half, woman, inherits death she cannot pass it on.

(experiments are going on for women to have their own babies without the input of men)

Now in the case of Jesus he did not have an earthly father, or no man or other half of woman had input into the genetic make up of Jesus, neither was he formed a new Adam from the dust of the ground seperate to both halfs of man, he was formed within the dust of the ground that was Eve, he effectively became a new half, a half without a key leading to death.

Jesus becomes a new Adam free from inherited sin (as they call it) and only through being disobedient to God the Spiritual Father (eternal life) could he actualy die as in become held in death.

etc etc etc

bernard (hug)


Genesis 3
6 The woman saw that the tree had fruit that was good to eat, nice to look at, and desirable for making someone wise. So she took some of the fruit and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

Was the sin of the male ''adam'' eating of the fruit himself or was the sin of the male ''adam'' allowing his wife to eat the fruit when he knew what would happen to her ? The husband was with his wife when she ate the fruit was he not, therefore why did he not stop her ?

Genesis 3
17 Then he said to the man, “You listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree, although I commanded you, ‘You must never eat its fruit.’

The husband listened to his wife so there must have been a conversation between the two of them before they both ate.

Notice how neither will admit they are responsible for their own actions, the husband blames his wife and his wife blames the serpent.

Regards

LeClerc


And?

Bernard (hug)


Genesis 3
3but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, Elohim has said, ‘Do not eat of it, nor touch it, lest you die.’ ”

Who told the woman ''nor touch it, lest you die''

Since YHWH Elohim said to the man

Genesis 3
16And YHWH Elohim commanded the man, saying, “Eat of every tree of the garden,

17but do not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for in the day that you eat of it you shall certainly die.”


Regards

LeClerc
bnabernard

OK, you're locked into Gen 3, could you peruse Gen 2, and then tell me when Adam became two seperate people.

Bernard (hug)
Farmer Geddon

Just out of curiosity...  how many different Mary's are recorded in the NT?
Jim

5 - I think!
Farmer Geddon

Yeah.. this thread popped up again and got me thinking how many Mary's are there in the Gospels.. 3 come to mind instantly, who are the other 2?
Lexilogio

Hmmm...

Mary the mother of Jesus
Mary Magdalene (the ex prostitute)
Mary the mother of James and Joseph and the mother of the sons of Zebedee
Mary the wife of Clopas (in Mark)

I have four. Who am I missing?
rstrats

Lexilogio,

re:  "Mary Magdalene (the ex prostitute)"

Where does scripture say that Mary M. was a prostitute?
Ketty

Lexilogio wrote:
I have four. Who am I missing?


http://www.scripturessay.com/how-many-marys-are-there-in-the-bible/

1. Mary, the mother of Jesus (Luke 1-2).

2. Mary Magdalene, the woman from whom Jesus cast out seven demons.  The name Magdalene indicates that she came from Magdala, a city on the southwest coast of the Sea of Galilee. After Jesus cast seven demons from her, she became one of His followers. Luke 7:37, Luke 8:23, Luke 87:36-50

3. Mary of Bethany, sister of Martha and Lazarus (Luke 10:38-42).

4. Mary, the mother of the disciple James and Joses (Matt 27:55-61).

5. Mary, the mother of John Mark (Acts 12:12).

6. Mary of Rome (Rom 16:6).

Farmer Geddon

Luke makes no mention of a Mary in book 7.

"36 When one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, he went to the Pharisee’s house and reclined at the table. 37 A woman in that town who lived a sinful life learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee’s house, so she came there with an alabaster jar of perfume. 38 As she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them."

Luke 8:23? "23 As they sailed, he fell asleep. A squall came down on the lake, so that the boat was being swamped, and they were in great danger."

Luke 87???
Lexilogio

rstrats wrote:
Lexilogio,

re:  "Mary Magdalene (the ex prostitute)"

Where does scripture say that Mary M. was a prostitute?


The word didn't exist then. I was using a colloquialism. As far as I recall, she had been a "sinner".
Lexilogio

Ketty wrote:
Lexilogio wrote:
I have four. Who am I missing?


http://www.scripturessay.com/how-many-marys-are-there-in-the-bible/

1. Mary, the mother of Jesus (Luke 1-2).

2. Mary Magdalene, the woman from whom Jesus cast out seven demons.  The name Magdalene indicates that she came from Magdala, a city on the southwest coast of the Sea of Galilee. After Jesus cast seven demons from her, she became one of His followers. Luke 7:37, Luke 8:23, Luke 87:36-50

3. Mary of Bethany, sister of Martha and Lazarus (Luke 10:38-42).

4. Mary, the mother of the disciple James and Joses (Matt 27:55-61).

5. Mary, the mother of John Mark (Acts 12:12).

6. Mary of Rome (Rom 16:6).



But the question was how many in the Gospels. So you also have four in the gospels.
Jim

I think I'd dispute Mary the mother of James and Joses, Lexi.
She's mentioned twice...though some Christians think she's two people!
bnabernard

Jim wrote:
I think I'd dispute Mary the mother of James and Joses, Lexi.
She's mentioned twice...though some Christians think she's two people!


I refuse to be drawn into a trinity comment here  

bernard (hug)
Jim

Eh?
Ketty

Lexilogio wrote:

But the question was how many in the Gospels. So you also have four in the gospels.


True.  
LeClerc

Morning

Ketty wrote:
Lexilogio wrote:

But the question was how many in the Gospels. So you also have four in the gospels.


True.  


Farmer Geddon has actually asked two questions.

Farmer Geddon wrote:
Just out of curiosity...  how many different Mary's are recorded in the NT?


and

Farmer Geddon wrote:
Yeah.. this thread popped up again and got me thinking how many Mary's are there in the Gospels.. 3 come to mind instantly, who are the other 2?


May I ask a third question.

Does anyone know how many Miryam's there are in the Tanakh and Messianic Writings, (OT and NT) ?

Regards

LeClerc
Ketty

I think I read somewhere there are over 50 mentions of the name Mary altogether, but I'm just off out for the day, so haven't time to double check that.
Farmer Geddon

As far as I can gather there are indeed 6 different Mary's mentioned in the NT.

I have never heard of any Mary's mentioned in the OT.
cyberman

Farmer Geddon wrote:
As far as I can gather there are indeed 6 different Mary's mentioned in the NT.

I have never heard of any Mary's mentioned in the OT.


Is 'Mary' the same name as 'Miriam'?
LeClerc

Hi Cyberman

cyberman wrote:
Farmer Geddon wrote:
As far as I can gather there are indeed 6 different Mary's mentioned in the NT.

I have never heard of any Mary's mentioned in the OT.


Is 'Mary' the same name as 'Miriam'?


Yes Miriam or Miryam which leads me to the question, why have the English translations of the OT not angicanized the Hebrew name Miriam or Miryam to Mary but instead have transliterated it.

Regards

LeClerc
Jim

Because the English translations don't transliterate names from the Greek into their original Hebrew.
Farmer Geddon

The simple answer is no, because the Hebrew "Miriam" does not mean the same as the Greek "Mary"..

A bit like cypertwat doesn't mean the same as cyberman.... even though they sound similar!
LeClerc

Morning Jim

Jim wrote:
Because the English translations don't transliterate names from the Greek into their original Hebrew.


Thanks Jim I understand what you are saying however

The Septuagint was written in Greek and yet the English translation of the Greek, translates Exodus 15 verses 20 and 21 as follows

Exodus 15 English translation of the Septuagint
20 And Mariam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, having taken a timbrel in her hand—then there went forth all the women after her with timbrels and dances. 21 And Mariam led them, saying, Let us sing to the Lord, for he has been very greatly glorified: the horse and rider has he cast into the sea.

http://ecmarsh.com/lxx/Exodus/index.htm

The Greek word translated ''Miriam'' is the same Greek word which in the NT is translated as Mary.

Regards

LeClerc
rstrats

Lexilogio,

re:  "The word didn't exist then. I was using a colloquialism. As far as I recall, she had been a 'sinner'."

So where did you get the idea that her having been a "sinner" meant that she had sold herself for money?
cyberman

LeClerc wrote:
Hi Cyberman

cyberman wrote:
Farmer Geddon wrote:
As far as I can gather there are indeed 6 different Mary's mentioned in the NT.

I have never heard of any Mary's mentioned in the OT.


Is 'Mary' the same name as 'Miriam'?


Yes Miriam or Miryam which leads me to the question, why have the English translations of the OT not angicanized the Hebrew name Miriam or Miryam to Mary but instead have transliterated it.

Regards

LeClerc


Because the NT came to us originally as Greek, so in the NT we use different versions of the same names, such as Jesus for Joshua, James for Jacob, etc
cyberman

Farmer Geddon wrote:


A bit like cypertwat doesn't mean the same as cyberman.... even though they sound similar!


Farmer,

A tiny child seems to have hacked into your account. Please have a word - they are embarrassing themselves.

(Well, it's either hacking or 'hic'..ing, isn't it?)
LeClerc

Hi Cyberman

cyberman wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi Cyberman

cyberman wrote:
Farmer Geddon wrote:
As far as I can gather there are indeed 6 different Mary's mentioned in the NT.

I have never heard of any Mary's mentioned in the OT.


Is 'Mary' the same name as 'Miriam'?


Yes Miriam or Miryam which leads me to the question, why have the English translations of the OT not angicanized the Hebrew name Miriam or Miryam to Mary but instead have transliterated it.

Regards

LeClerc


Because the NT came to us originally as Greek, so in the NT we use different versions of the same names, such as Jesus for Joshua, James for Jacob, etc


But we have Joshua in the NT

Luke 3 NIV
29 the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer,the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat,the son of Levi,

Acts 7 NIV
45 After receiving the tabernacle, our ancestors under Joshua brought it with them when they took the land from the nations God drove out before them. It remained in the land until the time of David,

Hebrews 4 NIV
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken(B) later about another day.

and we also have Jacob in the NT

Matthew 1 NIV
2 Abraham was the father of Isaac,Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,

Romans 9 NIV
13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Regards

LeClerc
Lexilogio

rstrats wrote:
Lexilogio,

re:  "The word didn't exist then. I was using a colloquialism. As far as I recall, she had been a 'sinner'."

So where did you get the idea that her having been a "sinner" meant that she had sold herself for money?


probably Godspell and various sermons throughout the years.

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