Archive for nglreturns.myfreeforum.org Nglreturns is a forum to discuss religion, philosophy, ethics etc...

NGLReturns Daily Quiz - Play here!
 



       nglreturns.myfreeforum.org Forum Index -> All faiths and none
Honey 56

Paganism?

Are there any Pagans on this forum?

It is a belief system that I have no understanding of.

In a previous conversation about what happens at the group meetings and formal gatherings, I was told that children would not normally be encouraged to attend and that they tend to be for adults only.
The Pagan I was speaking to mentioned something called a Sabbat?

It got me wondering, why is this?
I do understand that the children of Pagans are encouraged to find/follow their own faiths, is that correct?

Is it because the meetings are not suitable for youngsters, do things go on that they may be afraid of/not understand?

In fact what does go on at a Sabbat, I would be really interested to hear about your beliefs, practices and traditions and why these are not deemed suitable for children?

Thanks.
Honey 56
krysta25uk

I don't think there are any Pagans here

Sabbats are eight important days in the Wiccan tradition

They are the four equinoxes, and around feb 2, May 1, Aug 2 and hallowween.  Not sure what goes on at a meeting though every groups different.

According to OakKing, if I remember correctly,  children are encouraged to follow their own path and are not allowed at meeting mainly for this reason.  There are probably other reasons aswell but as said before each groups different.  

Hope this helps
Honey 56

krysta25uk wrote:
I don't think there are any Pagans here

Sabbats are eight important days in the Wiccan tradition

They are the four equinoxes, and around feb 2, May 1, Aug 2 and hallowween.  Not sure what goes on at a meeting though every groups different.

According to OakKing, if I remember correctly,  children are encouraged to follow their own path and are not allowed at meeting mainly for this reason.  There are probably other reasons as well but as said before each groups different.  

Hope this helps


Thank you Krysta,

I did wonder whether any one was posting on behalf of the Pagans, I never wandered onto their section on R&E, it didn't seem right to impose on their own threads.
I did wonder about the Sabbats, so I have learned something new today

Thank you,

Perhaps some will come and post some time.

Honey 56
Honey 56

If anyone is interested in pagan rituals etc., I found this site.....

paganwiccan.about.com/od/wiccanandpaganrituals/a/Year_Rituals.htm

Perhaps if there are any visiting Pagans they will let us know how accurate they think this is?

Honey
IvyOwl

Hello Honey,

I'm not a pagan and have never been to any rituals but I have on-line friends who are and have read one or two books over the years.

First of all 'Pagan' is an umbrella term for many different spiritual paths. Heathens, Druids, Wiccans, Shamans all come under the heading. Some believe in many gods and see them as separate entities others see them as Jungian archetypes. Some don't believe in gods. Some believe in the Abrahmic god but see her/him as being a local Middle Eastern god and not the One True God as adherents of the main stream religions would claim.

From what I can gather the emphasis is very much on the individual finding their own path and so they do not go in for prosletising to others as none of them see their way as being the 'one true way'.

The general public would perhaps be more aware of the oddballs that make headlines in the Daily Mail etc but the vast majority are just getting on with things quietly on their own, making connections to the wonder and beauty of the universe and the unknowable things, with rituals that mean something to them as individuals.

Some of them meet with others for open rituals where anyone and everyone is welcome to go along. Other times their rituals are more private affairs and children are not generally including in them not because anything dodgy is going one but because they might detract from the focus or because they don't as a rule try to influence their children until they are good and ready to think for themselves.

One thing I do know that they get really pissed off about is the accusation that they are devil worshippers. As the devil is a construct within the Christian faith it's not something that is going to play a part in theirs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/paganism/

For a better summing up than I've just given.

IO
Honey 56

Hello Ivy Owl,
Thank you for your response.

Judging from your post perhaps I know Pagans too and am not just aware of it? it sounds as if their faith is a very private thing.

However, some of the things you outline I can identify with, the wonder and beauty of the universe, or as I would understand it 'the creation' I can identify with feeling closer to my God within the setting of nature too.

I am fascinated by nature and the changing seasons and have a great respect and love for animals, so perhaps there is more common ground than I expected.

Thanks again for your reply and the link, this is a very nice forum, welcoming and friendly I really hope that our paths will cross again .

Honey
Shaker

Honey 56 wrote:
Judging from your post perhaps I know Pagans too and am not just aware of it?

That's probably pretty likely - there are estimated to be perhaps a quarter of a million pagans in the country (estimated according to some sources, of course: obviously it's impossible to be that specific) and most indicators seem to suggest that whatever the actual figure, the numbers are rising.
Honey 56

Judging from what I have read and am beginning to understand, the rise in Paganism is not really surprising, it seems to encompass a very wide range of beliefs and styles and seems very undemanding, it would appear to fill the need for a king of spirituality with not many restictions  from it's adherents, a kind of 'if it feels good do it' type of faith.

I have only looked briefly into the Wiccan branch so far though.


I do regret googling Sabbat !!!!!
cyberman

Shaker wrote:
the numbers are rising.


Porteous won't like that one bit!
IvyOwl

Honey 56 wrote:
Judging from what I have read and am beginning to understand, the rise in Paganism is not really surprising, it seems to encompass a very wide range of beliefs and styles and seems very undemanding, it would appear to fill the need for a king of spirituality with not many restictions  from it's adherents, a kind of 'if it feels good do it' type of faith.

I have only looked briefly into the Wiccan branch so far though.


I do regret googling Sabbat !!!!!



Hello Honey,

This is just a quick reply as I've got to get the evening meal ready. Also I don't mean to set myself up as the Pagan spokesperson but as no one else has come along I'll throw in what I can. (If any practising pagans should turn up I stand to be corrected of course )

There is an element of people calling themselves pagans who my friends refer to as 'the fluffy bunny brigade' and these would be mainy youngsters, but not exclusively who perhaps are jumping on a bandwagon and after an easy undemanding spirituality and don't go into things so deeply. Of course they could take it on in a more meaningful way later on .... everyone has to start somewhere.

There was a poster called 'Red' (a Wiccan) and one called Jez (a Heathen) who used to be regular contributers on the old beeb site and from what they've said their paths are very demanding. Requiring a fair amount of study and self knowledge/honesty without any dogma other than the 'golden rule'.

So I don't think it's quite fair to say that all Pagans are after a non demanding spiritualty. I guess that just as you get superficial Christians (who the rest of you say aren't 'real' ones) you get the same in paganism.

As I've said I'm writing from the point of view of an interested outsider so don't quote me!

IO
Shaker

cyberman wrote:
Shaker wrote:
the numbers are rising.


Porteous won't like that one bit!

I'm sure he consider Britain's pagan community the very least of his worries  
cymrudynnion

krysta25uk wrote:
I don't think there are any Pagans here

Sabbats are eight important days in the Wiccan tradition

They are the four equinoxes, and around feb 2, May 1, Aug 2 and hallowween.  Not sure what goes on at a meeting though every groups different.

According to OakKing, if I remember correctly,  children are encouraged to follow their own path and are not allowed at meeting mainly for this reason.  There are probably other reasons aswell but as said before each groups different.  

Hope this helps
My comment would be, if children are not encouraged, perhaps not allowed, at meetings, but encouraged to follow their own path. How do they receive teachings/instructions/guidance. three adjectives and verbs to help them/ If all three are missing they cannot form an opinion. Basically we are back to any Religion and the term indoctrination
Powwow

I hope Oaky Dokey is telling the truth about children not being allowed. Yes it is true, nudity and sex goes on at wiccan gatherings and most readily admit it.
Powwow

The wiccan Great Rite.
Honey 56

IvyOwl wrote:
Hello Honey,



One thing I do know that they get really pissed off about is the accusation that they are devil worshippers. As the devil is a construct within the Christian faith it's not something that is going to play a part in theirs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/paganism/

For a better summing up than I've just given.

IO


Hello Ivy Owl,

I have thought a great deal about this particular comment, and I feel that perhaps a reply to this may warrant a seperate thread as the subject possibly isn't reaaly appropriate for this one.
I am not sure if this is the right section, but hopefully if it isn't it can be moved?

Thank you for the link Ivy Owl.

Honey.
Shaker

pow wow wrote:
The wiccan Great Rite.

What about it?
Honey 56

IvyOwl wrote:
Honey 56 wrote:
Judging from what I have read and am beginning to understand, the rise in Paganism is not really surprising, it seems to encompass a very wide range of beliefs and styles and seems very undemanding, it would appear to fill the need for a king of spirituality with not many restictions  from it's adherents, a kind of 'if it feels good do it' type of faith.

I have only looked briefly into the Wiccan branch so far though.


I do regret googling Sabbat !!!!!



Hello Honey,

There is an element of people calling themselves pagans who my friends refer to as 'the fluffy bunny brigade' and these would be mainy youngsters, but not exclusively who perhaps are jumping on a bandwagon and after an easy undemanding spirituality and don't go into things so deeply. Of course they could take it on in a more meaningful way later on .... everyone has to start somewhere.

There was a poster called 'Red' (a Wiccan) and one called Jez (a Heathen) who used to be regular contributers on the old beeb site and from what they've said their paths are very demanding. Requiring a fair amount of study and self knowledge/honesty without any dogma other than the 'golden rule'.



IO


Thank you for our response, Ivy Owl,
I know what it's like to be posting and then have to go to do some chore or other, but life goes on in the real world, sometimes I could get lost in forum land  

I have not met 'Red', but I have bumped heads a few times with 'Jez' on R and E, I never really strayed onto the 'pagan and associated' threads, it never felt right to intrude on there somehow, but Jez and I have had some robust exchanges on the Christian topic threads it was a shame she felt the need to leave, but a girl has to do what a girl had to do! I suppose.

I suppose it would be a good idea to google for ancient texts regarding the pagan religions, I didn't realise there was anything available to study perhaps that would be a good place to glean some more understanding.

Honey
Shaker

Honey 56 wrote:
I suppose it would be a good idea to google for ancient texts regarding the pagan religions, I didn't realise there was anything available to study perhaps that would be a good place to glean some more understanding.


Such texts do exist, but they have precious little to do with contemporary paganism which is (with a few minor exceptions) called neo-paganism for a reason. Even the reconstructionists have very little in the way of authentically original texts to go on and have had to extrapolate from them in writing new ones. Wiccans are entirely up-front about their significant texts being purely twentieth century creations (by people like Gerald Gardner and so forth).
Powwow

Shaker,
"What about it?"
Good grief, the great rite is a sexual intercourse ritual that can be real or symbolic and I hope Oak is telling the truth. No child should be exposed to that dirty wiccan ritual. It's just plain evil.
Shaker

pow wow wrote:
Shaker,
"What about it?"
Good grief, the great rite is a sexual intercourse ritual that can be real or symbolic and I hope Oak is telling the truth. No child should be exposed to that dirty wiccan ritual. It's just plain evil.

So sex is both dirty and evil, is it?

Says much.
Powwow

LOL, is that the best you got? I didn't say that old man and you know it. I say the wiccan great rite is a dirty and evil pagan ritual.
Shaker

pow wow wrote:
LOL, is that the best you got? I didn't say that old man and you know it. I say the wiccan great rite is a dirty and evil pagan ritual.

We already know that it's a pagan ritual as we're dicussing a rite that takes place sometimes within the framework of a pagan religion. Why is it dirty and evil, specifically?
Powwow

lol
Shaker

What a pathetic little troll you are.
Powwow

Don't blame me because your bait is fake.
Honey 56

pow wow wrote:
The wiccan Great Rite.


pow wow wrote:
The wiccan Great Rite.

Hi Pow Wow,

I have looked this up through the search engine, and yes you are quite correct, there are sexual rites that take place within wiccan circles, Apparently these are actual sexual rites or ritual symbolic ones which are carried out between the high priest and priestess,or sometimes by other appointees. Symbolical use of a form of knife and chalice can replace the actual sexual rite.

Apparently this should not be surprising as 'wicca' is all about rebirth, fertility etc.

No wonder they would not wish their children to be present at such rituals. And they frown upon us taking our children to sunday school!!!!!

Honey
IvyOwl

pow wow wrote:
LOL, is that the best you got? I didn't say that old man and you know it. I say the wiccan great rite is a dirty and evil pagan ritual.


Why do you consider it a dirty and evil ritual?

It's most usually a symbolic ritual. Taking the form of the male symbol the athame (knife) being plunged into the chalice to symbolize creation in the union of the god and goddess.   It would only take place for real if the participants were already a couple and even then only in private.

Anyone looking to become a wiccan in the hope of sex orgies will be sorely disappointed.

I've been told that some covens may carry out their rituals 'skyclad' but keep in mind that these are small groups of people who really know each other well and in our climate doesn't happen very often. It's about trust rather than sex.

Also bear in mind that a lot of wiccans are not members of covens and their rituals will be held on their own.

IO
Leonard James

Oh dearie me ... the more I learn about different beliefs, the more grateful I am not to be the victim of any of them! There seems to be no end to the daft things people convince themselves are true.
Shaker

Honey 56 wrote:

Hi Pow Wow,

I have looked this up through the search engine, and yes you are quite correct, there are sexual rites that take place within wiccan circles, Apparently these are actual sexual rites or ritual symbolic ones which are carried out between the high priest and priestess,or sometimes by other appointees. Symbolical use of a form of knife and chalice can replace the actual sexual rite.

Apparently this should not be surprising as 'wicca' is all about rebirth, fertility etc.

No wonder they would not wish their children to be present at such rituals.


Any evidence that children are present if such rituals do take place? If not, your swivel-eyed faux outrage becomes merely pathetic.
Honey 56

Shaker wrote:
Honey 56 wrote:

Hi Pow Wow,

I have looked this up through the search engine, and yes you are quite correct, there are sexual rites that take place within wiccan circles, Apparently these are actual sexual rites or ritual symbolic ones which are carried out between the high priest and priestess,or sometimes by other appointees. Symbolical use of a form of knife and chalice can replace the actual sexual rite.

Apparently this should not be surprising as 'wicca' is all about rebirth, fertility etc.

No wonder they would not wish their children to be present at such rituals.


Any evidence that children are present if such rituals do take place? If not, your swivel-eyed faux outrage becomes merely pathetic.


Oh dear Shaker I am afraid you are letting your bad humour get the better of you, please read my post again and show me where I stated that children would be present at such rituals, that actually do take place apparently, well if the wiccan site can be believed that is!

It has already been established that they do not always allow children at some of their rituals, because they are 'adult only'

No need to apologise for misquoting me, just please do try to read the posts properly in future, that would save us all a great deal of angst.

Honey
IvyOwl

Quote:
Apparently this should not be surprising as 'wicca' is all about rebirth, fertility etc.

No wonder they would not wish their children to be present at such rituals.
And they frown upon us taking our children to sunday school!!!!!


I think you'll find there is a bit more to wicca than birth and rebirth and fertility and as the same theme runs through Christianity I'm not sure why you are singling it out?

Also the last piece of what you said doesn't make sense. As you have already had it explained that children aren't included in the closed rituals they are not being hypocritical in frowning at Christians taking their children to Sunday school are they?

Incidently the symbolic Great Rite is also part of their open rituals together with lots of other pieces of 'theatre'. None of which are  told as being 'truth'. The sex part wouldn't be spelled out and the symbiology would only be apparent to those already in the know.

IO
IvyOwl

PS Just read your previous post .... can you see why Shaker took the meaning from your post that he did?
IvyOwl

Also to reiterate it's not REAL sex that is taking place. Children will be seeing must more graphic sex stuff in everyday life. At least within the wiccan rituals the sex is seen as something sacred and not cheapened and used as a marketing tool. It's not porn or even erotica.

You seem to getting indignant unjustifiably. I'm a little bit puzzled as to why the wiccan rituals are seen as being any more 'disgusting' than eating the bread and drinking the wine as symbols of (or according to some brands of Christianity the actual) Christs blood and body.

As I said I'm neither a Christian nor a wiccan (or any other brand of neo paganism) just looking at them both from an outsiders perspective.

IO
Powwow

Ivy it can be either real or symbolic sex. Sometimes both is done. The wiccans don't seem shy to admit this, why are you trying to dismiss or down play the real intercourse rituals that they do?
IvyOwl

pow wow wrote:
Ivy it can be either real or symbolic sex. Sometimes both is done. The wiccans don't seem shy to admit this, why are you trying to dismiss or down play the real intercourse rituals that they do?


Well I didn't play it down entirely did I now? Be fair. I did say that if it does take place (according to my sources) it's between people who are already a couple and in private.

Clearly your sources have told you something different. I've got my info from the old beeb pagan topic board and one or two books and online pagan friends. Where did you get yours? Did they give a more lurid account? I'd be most interested to find out in the interests of fairness and balance!

IO
Honey 56

IvyOwl wrote:
PS Just read your previous post .... can you see why Shaker took the meaning from your post that he did?


No not really, but I would usually give him the benefit of the doubt, except that I do not appreciate being spoken to in that way, probably move in more polite and considerate company is all I expect. I always think if you have to resort to insults then you've probably lost the plot anyway.

It might make more sense if I explain that as Christians we are often accused by these people of indoctrinating our children because we do allow them to accompany us to our places of worship.

If you google this particular rite, as I just have on a 'wiccan site', you will see that the sexual rite can be real or it can be ritually symbolic, either way it isn't really something that a loving responsible parent would want their children to witness, would it?

Most parents would monitor what their children watch on TV., most are concerned that the material is age appropriate I would have thought?

As for the Lords supper, there is only one branch of religion that believe in transubstantiation, and it isn't something that I personally believe and it is not how Jesus taught us to remember Him, which is what it is all about at the end of the day. In the type of churches I was born again into it is purely a remembrance of the Lords salvation, not to be partaken of lightly or frivilously and certainly not before an age of understanding.

However we were not really discussing my religion.

BTW if you think I have singled out the wiccan belief, then it is because as I have already explained, I don't know much about any of the pagan beliefs.

Honey
Honey 56

Try this site Ivy Owl,


paganwiccan.about.com/od/magicandspellwork/.../WhatIsRitualSex.h

or just google 'wiiccan great rite' lots of oinfo comes up.

Honey
Shaker

Honey 56 wrote:
If you google this particular rite, as I just have on a 'wiccan site', you will see that the sexual rite can be real or it can be ritually symbolic, either way it isn't really something that a loving responsible parent would want their children to witness, would it?


Either way? Either way? If ritually symbolic, what's the problem with seeing an athame put into a chalice? Here's a representative sample of an athame:



and here's a chalice:



I can quite easily picture placing the former into the latter in a way in which my aunt in her mid-80s would find perfectly unshocking.

If literal = which children witness it? By your own admission, none:

Quote:
It has already been established that they do not always allow children at some of their rituals, because they are 'adult only'


Therefore it's a non-issue and this

Quote:
either way it isn't really something that a loving responsible parent would want their children to witness, would it?


is nonsense on stilts.
Powwow

So we all agree that real intercourse rituals are done and we all agree that children should not be present. And I will state that if such a thing is found to have happened (children witnesses), the children must be removed from the parents and the parents tossed into prison at the very least.
Shaker

pow wow wrote:
So we all agree that real intercourse rituals are done and we all agree that children should not be present.

Did anybody dispute either point?

Quote:
And I will state that if such a thing is found to have happened (children witnesses), the children must be removed from the parents and the parents tossed into prison at the very least.

I look forward to you presenting your evid ... oh, wait ...
Powwow

Yikes, I have to thank God you were not my parent old man.
Leonard James

pow wow wrote:
So we all agree that real intercourse rituals are done and we all agree that children should not be present. And I will state that if such a thing is found to have happened (children witnesses), the children must be removed from the parents and the parents tossed into prison at the very least.

Because, of course, children must never, never, be allowed to think their parents indulge in such awful practises.
IvyOwl

And um PowWow what about children hearing their parents having sexual intercourse anyway? Or walking in on them? Should those parents betossed in prison?

Most parents of course would prefer to avoid having their children as an audience and take care to make love away from prying eyes and ears. But what about those parent's living in poverty in cramped conditions with too many children as they belong to a church that forbids contraception?

Sex is an important aspect of adult human life. Yes it can be misused (as in rape for instance). I'm puzzled as to why you are getting so het up about the fact that wiccans treat it as a sacred act (most commonly symbolically) in their rituals, which their young children are kept from? Even to the point when imagining that they do (after being told they don't) you'd throw them in prison?

IO
Powwow

Well, I'm wondering why the atheists are such supporters of the wiccan religion and their real intercourse rituals. Rarely do these same atheists utter one word in support of Christianity. Wink, wink. I wonder how a person can compare a child being taken to witness a real intercourse ritual,not saying they do, to a child that accidentlly walks in on their parents.
Now as atheists don't you all see this paganism as a bunch of BS lacking evidence?lol
IvyOwl

Quote:
No not really, but I would usually give him the benefit of the doubt, except that I do not appreciate being spoken to in that way, probably move in more polite and considerate company is all I expect. I always think if you have to resort to insults then you've probably lost the plot anyway

It might make more sense if I explain that as Christians we are often accused by these people of indoctrinating our children because we do allow them to accompany us to our places of worship.
.

Yes I had realised that Christians get accused of brain washing, What I was trying to get at was the apparent contradiction in your statement:-

No wonder they would not wish their children to be present at such rituals.
And they frown upon us taking our children to sunday school!!!!!


On the one had you admitting that they keep their children away and on the other you are annoyed that they accuse you of not doing so. It didn't quite compute.

Quote:
If you google this particular rite, as I just have on a 'wiccan site', you will see that the sexual rite can be real or it can be ritually symbolic,

Which I'd already acknowledged

Quote:
either way it isn't really something that a loving responsible parent would want their children to witness, would it?


Exactly which is why they don't!




Quote:
As for the Lords supper, there is only one branch of religion that believe in transubstantiation, and it isn't something that I personally believe and it is not how Jesus taught us to remember Him, which is what it is all about at the end of the day. In the type of churches I was born again into it is purely a remembrance of the Lords salvation, not to be partaken of lightly or frivilously and certainly not before an age of understanding.


Exactly which is the same for wiccans and their sacred rituals. The difference is that their children are not taught the details of their beliefs until they are old enough to ask and they are not told them as absolute truths. Wiccans (and Healthens etc) seem to know the difference between beliefs and truths.

Quote:
BTW if you think I have singled out the wiccan belief, then it is because as I have already explained, I don't know much about any of the pagan beliefs.


We do seem rather to have got stuck on the  Great Rite other rites are available.

IO
Leonard James

pow wow wrote:
Well, I'm wondering why the atheists are such supporters of the wiccan religion and their real intercourse rituals. Rarely do these same atheists utter one word in support of Christianity. Wink, wink. I wonder how a person can compare a child being taken to witness a real intercourse ritual,not saying they do, to a child that accidentlly walks in on their parents.
Now as atheists don't you all see this paganism as a bunch of BS lacking evidence?lol

I don't want to rain on your parade, PW, but this atheist isn't a supporter of any religious claptrap. All of it is a bunch of bullshit lacking in evidence, yours included.
IvyOwl

pow wow wrote:
Well, I'm wondering why the atheists are such supporters of the wiccan religion and their real intercourse rituals. Rarely do these same atheists utter one word in support of Christianity. Wink, wink. I wonder how a person can compare a child being taken to witness a real intercourse ritual,not saying they do, to a child that accidentlly walks in on their parents.
Now as atheists don't you all see this paganism as a bunch of BS lacking evidence?lol


I don't think it's so much a case of supporting wiccans as being against misinformation.

The difference in my perception between wiccans/Heathens etc and Christians is that they don't try to claim that their beliefs and their personal experiences of their deities or the 'divine' as they might call it have any validity for anyone else. Christians constantly assert that they do know the truth. From an outsiders perspective they are both sets of beliefs backed up by personal experiences which are filtered through the chosen belief system. Most if not all of the neo pagans I've ever conversed with on-line are well aware of that fact. So I'm never in the posisition of having to tell then it's BS unsupported by evidence.  

I think it's showing great kindness of spirit on my part to be here sticking up for them when the only one I've met in real life was not a particularly honorable person. It's just that the others I've 'met' have been people I can really get on with. I wouldn't judge all Christians on one baddy either

IO
Shaker

pow wow wrote:
Well, I'm wondering why the atheists are such supporters of the wiccan religion and their real intercourse rituals. Rarely do these same atheists utter one word in support of Christianity.


While not a supporter of Wicca, there are too many differences between it and Christianity for it to be anywhere even remotely a fair comparison. Wicca isn't the established state religion of my country with the monarch as its head. There aren't Wiccans in the upper chamber of parliament by right instead of by merit. Schools are not mandated by law to hold a daily act of religious worship "of a broadly Wiccan nature." I've never heard of a single case where a Wiccan or indeed any other variety of pagan has agitated to be exempt from the laws of the land that everybody else is expected to abide by. I've never heard of a Wiccan whining about being told not to wear a pentacle openly at work; there have been no cases of which I'm aware where Wiccan registrars have cited their religious beliefs as their objection to marrying same-sex couples. The Wiccan Rede is essentially pluralist and tolerant: "An it harm none, do what ye will." The central Christian schema is narrow and exclusionary: "I am the way, the truth and the life; no man comes to the father except through me." I'm not aware that there's any central hierarchical organisation of Wicca which has amassed untold millions, quite possibly billions in land, investments and art treasures and the like as Christianity has done in blatant denial of some of its tenets. And so on and so forth.

Quote:
I wonder how a person can compare a child being taken to witness a real intercourse ritual,not saying they do

So if they're not, you can't compare it to anything, can you?

Quote:
Now as atheists don't you all see this paganism as a bunch of BS lacking evidence?lol

This one certainly does. But they seem, in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, to be a harmless bunch who have retained a great and precious gift that some Christians lost long ago if indeed it was ever there in the first place: namely, the ability to go about their lives and pursue their religion quietly without interfering with or imposing it on others and expecting others to to bend to their beliefs.
Honey 56

Leonard James wrote:
pow wow wrote:
So we all agree that real intercourse rituals are done and we all agree that children should not be present. And I will state that if such a thing is found to have happened (children witnesses), the children must be removed from the parents and the parents tossed into prison at the very least.

Because, of course, children must never, never, be allowed to think their parents indulge in such awful practises.


Well Leonard I would sincerely hope not!

It is one thing for children to grow up loved by two parents who love and respect one another, and it is also good that the children witness the tender moments between two parents, but these rituals are something quite different, obviously.
The wiccans themselves realise that these rituals are not for children, that has been established, if they did not, it would be tantamount to child abuse.
It is therefore hypocritcal to state that the children do not attend these rituals because the parents are keen  for them to make their own paths, especially when there are rituals that the children do attend. It is doubly so when Christian parents are accused of indoctrinating their children, because we do allow them to attend our places of worship.

It is interesting how atheists become apologists for one type of faith whilst constantly criticizing another, but not totally surprising.

Honey
IvyOwl

Quote:
It is interesting how atheists become apologists for one type of faith whilst constantly criticizing another, but not totally surprising.


I'm glad you find it interesting. Did you read the altheists replies to find out why that was so?

And I see you are still focussed on the Great Rite <sigh>

Quote:
The wiccans themselves realise that these rituals are not for children, that has been established, if they did not, it would be tantamount to child abuse. It is therefore hypocritcal to state that the children do not attend these rituals because the parents are keen  for them to make their own paths, especially when there are rituals that the children do attend.


The open rituals or other rituals eg handfastings that the children do attend are more akin to street theatre or old traditions. A bit of fun with a bit of seriousness but not being taught that any of it is the 'one true way'.

Quote:
It is doubly so when Christian parents are accused of indoctrinating their children, because we do allow them to attend our places of worship.


The accusation of indoctrination comes about when beliefs are taught as facts. Not all Christians do this of course so it's unfair to accuse them all of doing so.

You mentioned 'child abuse' The abuse that enrages me are the YEC beliefs being taught as fact.  That Genesis is history and science. In teaching children that the Earth is only 6000 years old and that we didn't evolve etc.

IO
Honey 56

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
[quote="IvyOwl:72667
You mentioned 'child abuse' The abuse that enrages me are the YEC beliefs being taught as fact.  That Genesis is history and science. In teaching children that the Earth is only 6000 years old and that we didn't evolve etc.


Seriously? you would consider that as child abuse?

Well you don't need to fret really, as you are probably aware the children in this country are ensured a good all round factual and balanced education by the national curriculum, in all subjects including personal development and religious instruction, well most of the mainstream religions anyway.
IvyOwl

Quote:
Seriously? you would consider that as child abuse?


Most certainly. To tell lies of that magnitude to young minds is wicked.

And of course I am well aware that at the moment children in our schools here in the UK are given a good grounding in the sciences. However there are worrying moves with the changes in funding etc for more schools to be set up here as per in in some parts of the US where these lies will be taught as fact.

By all means teach the creation and other myths from all cultures but not in history or science lessons.

IO
Honey 56

IvyOwl wrote:
Quote:
Seriously? you would consider that as child abuse?


Most certainly. To tell lies of that magnitude to young minds is wicked.

And of course I am well aware that at the moment children in our schools here in the UK are given a good grounding in the sciences. However there are worrying moves with the changes in funding etc for more schools to be set up here as per in in some parts of the US where these lies will be taught as fact.

By all means teach the creation and other myths from all cultures but not in history or science lessons.

IO


By all means, as long as they don't start teaching about the wiccan great rite as myth, that would be not only embarrassing for all concerned, but it really would be classed as child abuse, in the real world that is.

Honey
Shaker

IvyOwl wrote:
Quote:
Seriously? you would consider that as child abuse?


Most certainly. To tell lies of that magnitude to young minds is wicked.

Hear hear  
Powwow

Ivy, have I spread any misinformation about wiccans? Yes I get your point on you showing great kindness, considering.

Shaker, so your anti Christian bias is all about your bitterness. Well we have no established church in my country, my church hasn't priceless treasures hoarded, we have waged no wars. And Her Majesty is head of state over here. How's about you leave all that bitterness behind in the UK and come over here and get born again followed by an old fashioned baptizing in the Bow River.
Shaker

pow wow wrote:
Ivy, have I spread any misinformation about wiccans? Yes I get your point on you showing great kindness, considering.

Shaker, so your anti Christian bias is all about your bitterness. Well we have no established church in my country, my church hasn't priceless treasures hoarded, we have waged no wars. And Her Majesty is head of state over here. How's about you leave all that bitterness behind in the UK and come over here and get born again followed by an old fashioned baptizing in the Bow River.

No thank you. Not only am I not very, very, very silly but more importantly I was born just fine the first time round.
Dryghtens Toe

Hi all.,

I've not posted here for a while so not sure I count as beoing on this forum.. and rather than describe myself as a pagan I now describe myself as a broad non-traditional theist that expresses my spirituality through a range of practices including with neo-pagans and neo-pagan ritual. That said I have and am still involved with lots of pagans and more than most I've done the whole Gardnerian initiation thing and done all the traditional wiccan stuff in my time. So Ive had experience of everthing from national international and local pagan moots and invents open to everyone and the secret rituals with some very well known personalities of the Wiccan tradition. My perspective isn't a mainstream pagan one anymore and might annoy some pagans but if I can clarify anything on this thread let me know (Ive read bits of it but not all).

By the way my name is a hang over from my Wiccan days to those in the know lol.

Regards

DT

       nglreturns.myfreeforum.org Forum Index -> All faiths and none
Page 1 of 1
Create your own free forum | Buy a domain to use with your forum