Archive for nglreturns.myfreeforum.org Nglreturns is a forum to discuss religion, philosophy, ethics etc...

NGLReturns Daily Quiz - Play here!
 



       nglreturns.myfreeforum.org Forum Index -> Christian chat
LeClerc

Revelation 6

Hi All

Revelation 6 NWT
1And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice as of thunder: “Come!”2And I saw, and, look! a white horse; and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest.

3And when he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say: “Come!”4And another came forth, a fiery‐colored horse; and to the one seated upon it there was granted to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another; and a great sword was given him.

5And when he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say: “Come!” And I saw, and, look! a black horse; and the one seated upon it had a pair of scales in his hand.6And I heard a voice as if in the midst of the four living creatures say: “A quart of wheat for a de‧nar′i‧us, and three quarts of barley for a de‧nar′i‧us; and do not harm the olive oil and the wine.”

7And when he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say: “Come!”8And I saw, and, look! a pale horse; and the one seated upon it had the name Death. And Ha′des was closely following him. And authority was given them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with a long sword and with food shortage and with deadly plague and by the wild beasts of the earth.


In verse 2

”And I saw, and, look! a white horse; and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest.

Who is the one seated upon the white horse in the above verse ?

Do you agree with the one given in the link below ?

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2010686#s=18:0-19:0

LeClerc
Jim

Re: Revelation 6

Sorry, Le Clerc.
I couldn't bring myself to read the whole article.
After the tripe about Christ returning in w1914, my brain shut down.
I mean; come on; thwe '1914 generation' has almost snuffed it....and the WTBTS, to hide their embarrasment, have changed their doctrine - three times - since.
Therefore any drivel I see in that excuse for cat litter I treat as a waste of printers ink.
Honey 56

Re: Revelation 6

Jim wrote:
Sorry, Le Clerc.
I couldn't bring myself to read the whole article.
After the tripe about Christ returning in w1914, my brain shut down.
I mean; come on; thwe '1914 generation' has almost snuffed it....and the WTBTS, to hide their embarrasment, have changed their doctrine - three times - since.
Therefore any drivel I see in that excuse for cat litter I treat as a waste of printers ink.


Ditto Jim,
I switched off as soon as I read Christ threw satan out of heaven??????

Straight away there is a contradiction to scripture, it's just agony!

Honey
LeClerc

Hi Honey and Jim.

There was no need to read that far the opening two lines was far enough

Quote:

Our Active Leader Today

“He went forth conquering and to complete his conquest.”—REV. 6:2.


Who is the one seated upon the white horse in the above verse ?

LeClerc
Honey 56

LeClerc wrote:
Hi Honey and Jim.

There was no need to read that far the opening two lines was far enough

Quote:

Our Active Leader Today

“He went forth conquering and to complete his conquest.”—REV. 6:2.


Who is the one seated upon the white horse in the above verse ?

LeClerc


Well it is obviously the Lord, but they as usual have their tenses wrong, 'He went out'??????

As James so often asks me 'when did we see you'

My answer?  not yet, because when Jesus returns, as He Himself stated, 'every eye will see'

Honey
Honey 56

Honey 56 wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi Honey and Jim.

There was no need to read that far the opening two lines was far enough

Quote:

Our Active Leader Today

“He went forth conquering and to complete his conquest.”—REV. 6:2.


Who is the one seated upon the white horse in the above verse ?

LeClerc


Well it is obviously the Lord, but they as usual have their tenses wrong, 'He went out'??????

As James so often asks me 'when did we see you'

My answer?  not yet, because when Jesus returns, as He Himself stated, 'every eye will see'

Honey


P.s. I have had a lot of 'teachng' from the JW's and occasionally I still fall foul of this.

On consideration, is this person on the white horse in this scripture Jesus? the one in Rev. 19 surely is, but this vision has the Lamb opening scrolls, I wonder now if this rider is an angel going forth to seal the Lords 144.000?

Rev.7 would surely suggest as much, it is an angel with the seal of God that goes forth!!!!!!!
Jesus is not an angel, not even the arch angel Michael!




What does everyone else think?
Jim? LeClerc?

Thank you so  much for raising this LeClerc.

Honey
Jim

Er.....
Are you sure the JWs think Jesus is an angel?
Sorry.....scrub that.....
Are the JW's sure the JWs think Jesus is an angel?

Two quotes, courtesy of Towerwatch.com, which might give you a laugh.
PLEASE NOTE THE DATES........

Jesus is an Angel
Watchtower 1991 2/1 p. 17 Honor the Son, Jehovah’s Chief Agent
Jesus Christ further deserves honor because he is Jehovah’s chief angel, or archangel. On what basis do we reach that conclusion? Well, the prefix “arch,” meaning “chief” or “principal,” implies that there is only one archangel. God’s Word speaks of him in reference to the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. We read: “The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.
Jesus is not an Angel
Watchtower 1991 2/15 p. 14 A Corresponding Ransom for All
God did not send some angel to rescue mankind. He made the supreme sacrifice of sending his only-begotten Son, “the one he was specially fond of".
Where Should Jehovah's Witnesses Look For Salvation
Again notice the dates, two entirely different statements in the same month. Makes one think doesn't it?
LeClerc

Hi Honey

Honey 56 wrote:
Honey 56 wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi Honey and Jim.

There was no need to read that far the opening two lines was far enough

Quote:

Our Active Leader Today

“He went forth conquering and to complete his conquest.”—REV. 6:2.


Who is the one seated upon the white horse in the above verse ?

LeClerc


Well it is obviously the Lord, but they as usual have their tenses wrong, 'He went out'??????

As James so often asks me 'when did we see you'

My answer?  not yet, because when Jesus returns, as He Himself stated, 'every eye will see'

Honey


P.s. I have had a lot of 'teachng' from the JW's and occasionally I still fall foul of this.

On consideration, is this person on the white horse in this scripture Jesus? the one in Rev. 19 surely is, but this vision has the Lamb opening scrolls, I wonder now if this rider is an angel going forth to seal the Lords 144.000?

Rev.7 would surely suggest as much, it is an angel with the seal of God that goes forth!!!!!!!
Jesus is not an angel, not even the arch angel Michael!




What does everyone else think?
Jim? LeClerc?

Thank you so  much for raising this LeClerc.

Honey


That is the question sis, is the one mounted on the white horse in Revelation 6 verse 2 Y'shua the Messiah ?

According to the link the WT see the rider as their active leader.

LeClerc
Honey 56

More thoughts on this thread LeClerc and Jim.
I thought maybe if we take another look at the scriptures at Revelation?


1I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

Here we have Messiah Yeshua as the Lamb,  opening  the first of the seven seals.

If the rider on the white horse is Messiah Yeshua,
Then who are these other horsemen?

3When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!” 4Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword.
5When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, “A quarta of wheat for a day’s wages,b and three quarts of barley for a day’s wages,c and do not damage the oil and the wine!”
7When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.


Revelation 7 gives us a clue I think

1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3“Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.


Now even if the rider on the white horse is Messiah Yeshua (I don't personally believe so, not this one, the one in chapter 19, yes), these prophesies are understood by most people to be future events.
I believe just pre-tribulation from the background information to the scripture. The angels are instructed to hold back from harming the earth until the 144.000 are sealed. This is the scripture that indicated it would cost a days wage to bake a loaf of bread? What we have seen so far of these prophesies are what Jesus describes as 'birth pains', in other words I think, we have only seen the beginning of what is to come?

It is not until Chapter 19 that Messiah Yeshua rides out on a white horse to defeat his enemies, the false prophet and the beast, but this is not the final battle?

From what I have read from the WTBTS they believe that this is Messiah Yeshua on the white horse in chapter 6 and 7 and they believe that this prophesy has already happened.

It would be really good to have your thoughts about this, but what would be even better is if James could comment?

Honey
Honey 56

How do the WTBTS get this….
Then, in his role as Jehovah’s “messenger of the covenant,” Jesus came with his Father to carry out an inspection of the spiritual temple. (Mal. 3:1)

From this scripture?

1“See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.
2But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap. 3He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the Lord will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness, 4and the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be acceptable to the Lord, as in days gone by, as in former years 6“I the Lord do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed. 7Ever since the time of your forefathers you have turned away from my decrees and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you,” says the Lord Almighty.
Malachi 3
.


Can anyone at all see this, if so will they explain it to me, because I am at a loss?
Perhaps there is a clue in the phrase 'spiritual' temple
Like the 144.000  'spiritual' Israel.
 

Honey
Honey 56

Jim wrote:
Er.....
Are you sure the JWs think Jesus is an angel?
Sorry.....scrub that.....
Are the JW's sure the JWs think Jesus is an angel?

Two quotes, courtesy of Towerwatch.com, which might give you a laugh.
PLEASE NOTE THE DATES........

Jesus is an Angel
Watchtower 1991 2/1 p. 17 Honor the Son, Jehovah’s Chief Agent
Jesus Christ further deserves honor because he is Jehovah’s chief angel, or archangel. On what basis do we reach that conclusion? Well, the prefix “arch,” meaning “chief” or “principal,” implies that there is only one archangel. God’s Word speaks of him in reference to the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. We read:* “The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.
Jesus is not an Angel
Watchtower 1991 2/15 p. 14 A Corresponding Ransom for All
God did not send some angel to rescue mankind. **He made the supreme sacrifice of sending his only-begotten Son, “the one he was specially fond of".
Where Should Jehovah's Witnesses Look For Salvation
Again notice the dates, two entirely different statements in the same month. Makes one think doesn't it?


Hi Jim.
Yes, this phenomenon is known in scholarly circles as spriritual flip-flops  

*If descending with an archangels voice, make Jesus an archangel, does the same thing apply to the trumpet?  


**YHWH's supreme sacrifice was taking on Flesh Himself and becoming our Saviour, how is a sacrifice supreme, when someone else is sent to make that sacrifice? (they just don't get it, do they?)



Honey
LeClerc

Hi Honey

Honey 56 wrote:
More thoughts on this thread LeClerc and Jim.
I thought maybe if we take another look at the scriptures at Revelation?


1I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

Here we have Messiah Yeshua as the Lamb,  opening  the first of the seven seals.

If the rider on the white horse is Messiah Yeshua,
Then who are these other horsemen?

3When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!” 4Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword.
5When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, “A quarta of wheat for a day’s wages,b and three quarts of barley for a day’s wages,c and do not damage the oil and the wine!”
7When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.


Revelation 7 gives us a clue I think

1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3“Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.


Now even if the rider on the white horse is Messiah Yeshua (I don't personally believe so, not this one, the one in chapter 19, yes), these prophesies are understood by most people to be future events.
I believe just pre-tribulation from the background information to the scripture. The angels are instructed to hold back from harming the earth until the 144.000 are sealed. This is the scripture that indicated it would cost a days wage to bake a loaf of bread? What we have seen so far of these prophesies are what Jesus describes as 'birth pains', in other words I think, we have only seen the beginning of what is to come?

It is not until Chapter 19 that Messiah Yeshua rides out on a white horse to defeat his enemies, the false prophet and the beast, but this is not the final battle?

From what I have read from the WTBTS they believe that this is Messiah Yeshua on the white horse in chapter 6 and 7 and they believe that this prophesy has already happened.

It would be really good to have your thoughts about this, but what would be even better is if James could comment?

Honey


Excellent post sis.

If we move on to Revelation 9
14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.”

Giving more weight to the four riders being four angels.

LeClerc
bnabernard

http://www.independent.co.uk/envi...-snakes-is-unleashed-1705315.html

here's something I had not come across before regarding the drying up of the euphratese.  

bernard (hug)
Honey 56

Hi Bernard,

That link is very interesting, I did not think much about this prophesy until now, so thanks for that.

It would appear (from the scriptures)  that in the future the Euphrates river will be completely dry, so much so that thousands upon thousands of armed forces will be able to cross on foot.
Rev.16:12 and isaiah 11:15

And so I am sure that this will be a supernatural event caused by God's angels and not a problem caused by humankind, the Euphrates has fallen to quite a degree because of damning, but it is still quite a river by all accounts.

I personally would be careful of reading too much into these 'signs' to soon.

Honey
bnabernard

Yes, however I have to say, or plagerise anothers saying,  consider the lilly  

I might even explain what I mean later, or give a clue at least, one man plants, another waters, and God makes it grow, how about that  
Or as you sow so shall you reap. innit


bernard (hug)
Honey 56

bnabernard wrote:
Yes, however I have to say, or plagerise anothers saying,  consider the lilly  

I might even explain what I mean later, or give a clue at least, one man plants, another waters, and God makes it grow, how about that  
Or as you sow so shall you reap. innit


bernard (hug)


Hi Bernard,
"Consider the lillies" is one of my favourites quotes of Jesus, for a worrier like me it is comforting to know that YHWH knows all that we need.

It has the power to help change a 'worrier' into a 'warrior'

Honey  
bnabernard

Hi Honey

Once a person takes to discussing God and religion all sorts of views come into the picture, and people start saying, here is the christ, and here is the christ, this is God and that is God, but combined with the Lilly I have in mind Yeshua/Jesus on a boat and comanding the wind and the waves.

The wind and the waves are there according to the law, heat, updraft depression, etc, so when Yeshau commands the wind he in fact is calling quite a number of things of the law to become changed.

The law will be what it will be, God will be what God will be, and wisdom and law become one in God uncreated but are.

bernard (hug)
Honey 56

[quote="bnabernard:81006"]Hi Honey

Quote:
Once a person takes to discussing God and religion all sorts of views come into the picture, and people start saying, here is the christ, and here is the christ, this is God and that is God, but combined with the Lilly I have in mind Yeshua/Jesus on a boat and comanding the wind and the waves.


Mans views count as nought, God's word should be the ultimate answer.
Talkng about YHWH stilling the storm...

28Then they cried out to the Lord in their trouble,

and he brought them out of their distress.

29He stilled the storm to a whisper;

the waves of the sea were hushed.

30They were glad when it grew calm,

and he guided them to their desired haven.

31Let them give thanks to the Lord for his unfailing love

and his wonderful deeds for men
.

Quote:
The wind and the waves are there according to the law, heat, updraft depression, etc, so when Yeshau commands the wind he in fact is calling quite a number of things of the law to become changed.

The law will be what it will be, God will be what God will be, and wisdom and law become one in God uncreated but are.

bernard (hug)


God of the old and the new, eternal  

Honey
Jim

Honey.
One question we need to look at is:
"Why were the disciples terrified AFTER Jesus calmed the storm?
There is only one reasonable answer.
They knew their scriptures - how could they not? - and they knew that One, and only One, has the power to control the elements ( See the Psalms).
No wonder they said "Who is this, that even the wind and waves obey Him?"
Without words, Jesus demonstrates by His actions that He has the power that belongs to that very One who can control the elements...in other words, He showed Himself as God Incarnate.
No wonder the disciples were terrified!
Honey 56

Jim wrote:
Honey.
One question we need to look at is:
"Why were the disciples terrified AFTER Jesus calmed the storm?
There is only one reasonable answer.
They knew their scriptures - how could they not? - and they knew that One, and only One, has the power to control the elements ( See the Psalms).
No wonder they said "Who is this, that even the wind and waves obey Him?"
Without words, Jesus demonstrates by His actions that He has the power that belongs to that very One who can control the elements...in other words, He showed Himself as God Incarnate.
No wonder the disciples were terrified!


Indeed and absolutely Jim.
They were in the presence of awesome Godness.
This was the Man they ate with, lived with shared everthing with,  the Immanuel, the servant Kingl

Honey
bnabernard

And when Moses struck the rock and water flowed ?

bernard (hug)
Jim

What of it, Bernie?
Jesus was taking on an attribute which the disciples knew was the province of God, and God alone.

Were the Israelites scared witless when Moses, acting under God's instruction, produced water?
bnabernard

Jim wrote:
What of it, Bernie?
Jesus was taking on an attribute which the disciples knew was the province of God, and God alone.

Were the Israelites scared witless when Moses, acting under God's instruction, produced water?


Gods instruction was to talk to the rock, do you not think that the Israelites would not be scared when Moses lost his temper, after all it had not bode fair for them in  the past when he did.

Selective reasoning will not help me if that is what I want for myself so I try to avoide it, and as such the Pharoe had his fingers burnt, even when the challenge went out from Elijah, another who displays Gods might by having water catch fire, or perhaps Elijah was a con man with a can of petrol.

Three men in a furnace.

Come on Jim the disciples were pretty naive in the learning days, they no doubt knew the history of Moses and Elijah, why should they not fear someone who had the same powers in a relationship with God, perspective thats all thats needed.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Honey

Honey 56 wrote:
More thoughts on this thread LeClerc and Jim.
I thought maybe if we take another look at the scriptures at Revelation?


1I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

Here we have Messiah Yeshua as the Lamb,  opening  the first of the seven seals.

If the rider on the white horse is Messiah Yeshua,
Then who are these other horsemen?

3When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!” 4Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword.
5When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, “A quarta of wheat for a day’s wages,b and three quarts of barley for a day’s wages,c and do not damage the oil and the wine!”
7When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.


Revelation 7 gives us a clue I think

1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3“Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.


Now even if the rider on the white horse is Messiah Yeshua (I don't personally believe so, not this one, the one in chapter 19, yes), these prophesies are understood by most people to be future events.
I believe just pre-tribulation from the background information to the scripture. The angels are instructed to hold back from harming the earth until the 144.000 are sealed. This is the scripture that indicated it would cost a days wage to bake a loaf of bread? What we have seen so far of these prophesies are what Jesus describes as 'birth pains', in other words I think, we have only seen the beginning of what is to come?

It is not until Chapter 19 that Messiah Yeshua rides out on a white horse to defeat his enemies, the false prophet and the beast, but this is not the final battle?

From what I have read from the WTBTS they believe that this is Messiah Yeshua on the white horse in chapter 6 and 7 and they believe that this prophesy has already happened.

It would be really good to have your thoughts about this, but what would be even better is if James could comment?

Honey


Excellent post sis.

If we move on to Revelation 9
14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.”

Giving more weight to the four riders being four angels.

LeClerc
Honey 56

LeClerc wrote:
Hi Honey

Honey 56 wrote:
More thoughts on this thread LeClerc and Jim.
I thought maybe if we take another look at the scriptures at Revelation?


1I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

Here we have Messiah Yeshua as the Lamb,  opening  the first of the seven seals.

If the rider on the white horse is Messiah Yeshua,
Then who are these other horsemen?

3When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!” 4Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword.
5When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, “A quarta of wheat for a day’s wages,b and three quarts of barley for a day’s wages,c and do not damage the oil and the wine!”
7When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.


Revelation 7 gives us a clue I think

1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3“Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.


Now even if the rider on the white horse is Messiah Yeshua (I don't personally believe so, not this one, the one in chapter 19, yes), these prophesies are understood by most people to be future events.
I believe just pre-tribulation from the background information to the scripture. The angels are instructed to hold back from harming the earth until the 144.000 are sealed. This is the scripture that indicated it would cost a days wage to bake a loaf of bread? What we have seen so far of these prophesies are what Jesus describes as 'birth pains', in other words I think, we have only seen the beginning of what is to come?

It is not until Chapter 19 that Messiah Yeshua rides out on a white horse to defeat his enemies, the false prophet and the beast, but this is not the final battle?

From what I have read from the WTBTS they believe that this is Messiah Yeshua on the white horse in chapter 6 and 7 and they believe that this prophesy has already happened.

It would be really good to have your thoughts about this, but what would be even better is if James could comment?

Honey


Excellent post sis.

If we move on to Revelation 9
14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.”

Giving more weight to the four riders being four angels.

LeClerc


Thank you LeClerc,  

I wonder what the WTBTS would make of the idea that their 'jesus' is an angel, besides the arch angel Michael?

It is a great pity that there is no one willing to defend this belief.

Still how can anyone defend the indefensible?

We can only pray that when enough JW's get wind of this false teaching they will pluck up enough courage to question the WTBTS, and hopefully they will recieve 'new light ' on this teaching too.

Honey
LeClerc

Hi Honey

Honey 56 wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi Honey

Honey 56 wrote:
More thoughts on this thread LeClerc and Jim.
I thought maybe if we take another look at the scriptures at Revelation?


1I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

Here we have Messiah Yeshua as the Lamb,  opening  the first of the seven seals.

If the rider on the white horse is Messiah Yeshua,
Then who are these other horsemen?

3When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!” 4Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword.
5When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, “A quarta of wheat for a day’s wages,b and three quarts of barley for a day’s wages,c and do not damage the oil and the wine!”
7When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.


Revelation 7 gives us a clue I think

1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3“Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.


Now even if the rider on the white horse is Messiah Yeshua (I don't personally believe so, not this one, the one in chapter 19, yes), these prophesies are understood by most people to be future events.
I believe just pre-tribulation from the background information to the scripture. The angels are instructed to hold back from harming the earth until the 144.000 are sealed. This is the scripture that indicated it would cost a days wage to bake a loaf of bread? What we have seen so far of these prophesies are what Jesus describes as 'birth pains', in other words I think, we have only seen the beginning of what is to come?

It is not until Chapter 19 that Messiah Yeshua rides out on a white horse to defeat his enemies, the false prophet and the beast, but this is not the final battle?

From what I have read from the WTBTS they believe that this is Messiah Yeshua on the white horse in chapter 6 and 7 and they believe that this prophesy has already happened.

It would be really good to have your thoughts about this, but what would be even better is if James could comment?

Honey


Excellent post sis.

If we move on to Revelation 9
14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.”

Giving more weight to the four riders being four angels.

LeClerc


Thank you LeClerc,  

I wonder what the WTBTS would make of the idea that their 'jesus' is an angel, besides the arch angel Michael?

It is a great pity that there is no one willing to defend this belief.

Still how can anyone defend the indefensible?

We can only pray that when enough JW's get wind of this false teaching they will pluck up enough courage to question the WTBTS, and hopefully they will recieve 'new light ' on this teaching too.

Honey


Agreed sis.

James as been very quiet on this thread, wonder why.

LeClerc
Honey 56

James may be waiting to hear what the WTBTS have to say? or he may have just decided to ignore this thread in the hope it will go away  

Honey
LeClerc

Morning Honey

Honey 56 wrote:
James may be waiting to hear what the WTBTS have to say? or he may have just decided to ignore this thread in the hope it will go away  

Honey


Honey 56

LeClerc wrote:
Morning Honey

Honey 56 wrote:
James may be waiting to hear what the WTBTS have to say? or he may have just decided to ignore this thread in the hope it will go away  

Honey




Hi LeClerc.
I live in hopes!

LeClerc

Hi Honey

Honey 56 wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Morning Honey

Honey 56 wrote:
James may be waiting to hear what the WTBTS have to say? or he may have just decided to ignore this thread in the hope it will go away  

Honey




Hi LeClerc.
I live in hopes!



Me too sis

bnabernard

Gen 6:2   That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose

What are sons of God?

bernard (hug)
Honey 56

bnabernard wrote:
Gen 6:2   That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose

What are sons of God?

bernard (hug)


The sons of God are anyone that God has created and adopted into His family, as opposed to His only begotten, who was not created.

I think you are referring to the Nephilim again Bernard, and the rather dubious theory of the WTBTS that these are the offspring of fallen angels and human women.

This theory does not really hold up though Bernard, when we consider that the scriptures say that the Nephilim were on the earth both before and after the flood. It make far more sense in that case that these Nephilim are descendents of Noah and his sons, rather than evil half angel/humans who should presumably have been destroyed in the flood, but were not, acccording to scripture.

I hope you won't mind me asking, but do you think that these Nephilim are somehow relevant to Revelation 6? if so, I am very interested to know how.
Thank you Bernard.

Honey
bnabernard

When God breathed life into Adam, was it a created life He breathed in?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
When God breathed life into Adam, was it a created life He breathed in?

bernard (hug)


May I suggest a new thread.

To get this thread back on track.

Revelation 6 NWT
1And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice as of thunder: “Come!”2And I saw, and, look! a white horse; and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest.

3And when he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say: “Come!”4And another came forth, a fiery‐colored horse; and to the one seated upon it there was granted to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another; and a great sword was given him.

5And when he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say: “Come!” And I saw, and, look! a black horse; and the one seated upon it had a pair of scales in his hand.6And I heard a voice as if in the midst of the four living creatures say: “A quart of wheat for a de‧nar′i‧us, and three quarts of barley for a de‧nar′i‧us; and do not harm the olive oil and the wine.”

7And when he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say: “Come!”8And I saw, and, look! a pale horse; and the one seated upon it had the name Death. And Ha′des was closely following him. And authority was given them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with a long sword and with food shortage and with deadly plague and by the wild beasts of the earth.


In verse 2

”And I saw, and, look! a white horse; and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest.

Who is the one seated upon the white horse in the above verse ?

Do you agree with the one given in the link below ?

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2010686#s=18:0-19:0

LeClerc

       nglreturns.myfreeforum.org Forum Index -> Christian chat
Page 1 of 1
Create your own free forum | Buy a domain to use with your forum