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Honey 56

Satan/ism/ists

I have opened a new thread,( hope it is in the correct section?)as a response to this quote from another poster.......


Quote:
One thing I do know that they get really pissed off about is the accusation that they are devil worshippers. As the devil is a construct within the Christian faith it's not something that is going to play a part in theirs.

(From the Paganism thread)

Is this true? are satan/ism/ists just constructs within the Christian faith, I would really like to explore this,  with peoples help of course.

Just what does the bible and the Christian faith teach about satan/ism/ists, and the rituals and practices concerned within it?

Has a whole new type of religion grown around satan worship? is it unique? and are Pagan right to diassociate themselves so vehemently.

One thing for sure these practices are an abomination to the God of the Old and New Testaments, for Jewish and Christian faiths alike and also for Islam to a degree.

Honey
Shaker

Re: Satan/ism/ists

[quote="Honey 56:72570"]
Quote:
Has a whole new type of religion grown around satan worship? is it unique?

There is such a religion as Satanism which is based on the ideas and writings of Anton Szandor LaVey in the 1960s and 1970s. It's sometimes called LaVeyan Satanism for this reason: arguably the vast majority of those today who call themselves Satanists are simply riffing on the ideas of LaVey. His version of Satanism isn't devil worship as it doesn't believe in devils or indeed in the supernatural in any form whatsoever. It's basically atheism, Ayn Randian objectivism and a few concepts mined from the likes of William Blake and Friedrich Nietzsche and mashed up - Satan is simply a symbolic representation in art and literature of the Satanic Virtues of independence, freedom of thought, individualism, carnal indulgence and the like.

Quote:
are Pagan right to diassociate themselves so vehemently.

Yes.

Quote:
One thing for sure these practices are an abomination to the God of the Old and New Testaments, for Jewish and Christian faiths alike and also for Islam to a degree.

An abomination to Islam to a degree? Presumably to a degree lesser than to Christianity and Judaism - but why would it be an abomination to Islam to a lesser degree?
gone

What I don't understand is why Satan is made out to be the bad guy, when its deeds couldn't be any worse than that of the deity as it is portrayed in the Bible?
Shaker

Willow wrote:
What I don't understand is why Satan is made out to be the bad guy, when its deeds couldn't be any worse than that of the deity as it is portrayed in the Bible?

In a nutshell it could be said that that's precisely the basis of modern Satanism. Where Satanism is identified with Lucifer, he's seen as the symbol of things such as pride, rebellion, independence, individualism and all the other things that Satanism regards as its virtues.
Honey 56

Satanism was around long before Anton LeVay, who incidently built the first established 'church' to satan, but this modern ‘ satanism’ has very little to do with the occult practices that define satan worship,
The occult has been around in different guises and known by different names since the beginning of time, but it all has the same spirit behind it.
There are plenty of sites on the internet, but I don’t feel it is right for me to post links to them.

Honey
Honey 56

Re: Satan/ism/ists

[quote="Shaker:72576"][quote="Honey 56:72570"]
Quote:


Quote:
One thing for sure these practices are an abomination to the God of the Old and New Testaments, for Jewish and Christian faiths alike and also for Islam to a degree.

An abomination to Islam to a degree? Presumably to a degree lesser than to Christianity and Judaism - but why would it be an abomination to Islam to a lesser degree?


Yes an abomination to Islam to a degree, they have their own texts and beliefs about the character they call 'shaitan' they do not agree with most of the New Testament teaching and they have revised some of the Old Testament, so yes to a degree.


(My old Mum used to tell me that presumption is a sin, I can understand why, because some people have the happy knack of always presuming the worse about others. It is preferable not to try to second guess what someone means, it can all be clarified very easily, by just simply asking that person to explain the point they are making.

Honey.
Powwow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s...vfI&feature=player_detailpage
Leonard James

pow wow wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s...vfI&feature=player_detailpage

Oh my!        
Powwow

Leo,
Laugh it up now but time keeps on slippin eh?
IvyOwl

Quote:
The occult has been around in different guises and known by different names since the beginning of time, but it all has the same spirit behind it.


What do you mean by the 'same spitit behind it'? Are you using the word to mean anything supernatural or paranormal  that can't be ascribed to your god? If so that would explain why you would see it as evil.

Occult means knowledge of the hidden. And from where I'm sitting that could apply to Christians saying they have knoweldge of the Holy spirit.

IO
Leonard James

pow wow wrote:
Leo,
Laugh it up now but time keeps on slippin eh?

Indeed it does, PW, and I obviously ain't got long to go now. But death holds no fears for me ... so I don't need any of these weird superstitions.
IvyOwl

Leonard James wrote:
pow wow wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s...vfI&feature=player_detailpage

Oh my!        



Please don't ask me where this quote comes from I do not know, For the believer no explaination is necessary and for the skeptic no explaination will satisfy So the truth or otherwise of the quote is immaterial. Riiiiight ok mmmmm. Then the stuff from the Book of Revelations. No confirmation bias going on there then?

IO
Leonard James

IvyOwl wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
pow wow wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s...vfI&feature=player_detailpage

Oh my!        



Please don't ask me where this quote comes from I do not know, For the believer no explaination is necessary and for the skeptic no explaination will satisfy So the truth or otherwise of the quote is immaterial. Riiiiight ok mmmmm. Then the stuff from the Book of Revelations. No confirmation bias going on there then?

IO

Ivy, I only really understand half the stuff that gets posted here, and believe me that's more than enough!
Shaker

IvyOwl wrote:
So the truth or otherwise of the quote is immaterial. Riiiiight ok mmmmm.

Wowser's usual modus operandi, if you hadn't already found out.
Powwow

"Well, satanism is ATHEIST, but not all atheists are satanists." I believe that.
Honey 56

Quote:
Just what does the bible and the Christian faith teach about satan/ism/ists, and the rituals and practices concerned within it?


I tought it might be good to look at some of the names and titles that are ascribed to him and how they describe his personality and being.

satan: adversary, also the name of the superhuman adversary of God
Word Origin
of uncertain derivation
Definition
adversary, also the name of the superhuman adversary of God
NASB Translation
accuser (1), adversary (8), Satan (18

Devil
diabolos: slanderous, accusing falsely
Original Word: διάβολος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: diabolos
Phonetic Spelling: (dee-ab'-ol-os)
Short Definition: slanderous, the Slanderer, the Devil
Definition: (adj. used often as a noun), slanderous; with the article: the Slanderer (par excellence), the Devil.

Lucifer
helel: a shining one
Original Word: הֵילֵל
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: helel
Phonetic Spelling: (hay-lale')
Short Definition: morning

Beelzebub
Beelzeboul: Beelzebul, a name of Satan
Original Word: Βεελζεβούλ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Proper Noun, Indeclinable
Transliteration: Beelzeboul
Phonetic Spelling: (beh-el-zeb-ool')
Short Definition: Beelzebul
Definition: Beelzebul, a name of Satan, the chief of evil spirits.

954 Beelzeboúl (translaterated from OT 1176/BaʽalZebūb, "the lord of flies" or "fly-god," cf. 2 Ki 1:2) – Beelzebul, a title of Satan which stresses he is the prince over demons ("demonic flies"). See also 4567 /Satanás ("Satan").

He is also known as ‘decciever’ ‘The Father of lies’ ‘the anti-christ’

The 'enemy' of God and humanity.

The bible teaches that Lucifer was a created being, a very high ranking angel. He became sinful, disobeyed God, was evicted from heaven and took one third of the heavenly host with him. It was satan in the garden of Eden who tempted Eve and caused Adam to sin.
Powwow

"Never forget that you are a woman, and the greatest POWERS you can employ as a WITCH are totally dependent upon your own self-realization that in being a woman you are differnts from a man and that difference MUST BE EXPLOITED!"   Anton LaVey
Honey 56

IvyOwl wrote:
Quote:
The occult has been around in different guises and known by different names since the beginning of time, but it all has the same spirit behind it.


What do you mean by the 'same spitit behind it'? Are you using the word to mean anything supernatural or paranormal  that can't be ascribed to your god? If so that would explain why you would see it as evil.

Occult means knowledge of the hidden. And from where I'm sitting that could apply to Christians saying they have knoweldge of the Holy spirit.

IO


Knowlege of the hidden is but one meaning of occult.
From a Christian point of view, it is the spirit of the anti-christ.

I will post later about what the bibles view is of the occult practices and arts.

Honey
IvyOwl

pow wow wrote:
"Well, satanism is ATHEIST, but not all atheists are satanists." I believe that.


PowWow.

Atheist means 'not believing in any gods' so how can one be a satanist as in order to believe in 'him' as an entity to be worshipped (or whatever it is satanists do) they'd need to believe in the God of the bible?

You can't be a Satanist and an atheist.  

So to sum up.  A Satanist can't be an Atheist and an Atheist can't be a Satanist.

IO
Powwow

Ivy,
LaVeyan satanists view satan as a symbol of man's inherent nature. Atheistic satanism is egoism with ritual.
Leonard James

IvyOwl wrote:
pow wow wrote:
"Well, satanism is ATHEIST, but not all atheists are satanists." I believe that.


PowWow.

Atheist means 'not believing in any gods' so how can one be a satanist as in order to believe in 'him' as an entity to be worshipped (or whatever it is satanists do) they'd need to believe in the God of the bible?

You can't be a Satanist and an atheist.  

So to sum up.  A Satanist can't be an Atheist and an Atheist can't be a Satanist.

IO

Ivy, that's blindingly obvious to anybody who isn't brainwashed into believing otherwise.
Honey 56

LaVeyan Satanism

Main article: LaVeyan Satanism

LaVeyan Satanism is a philosophy (not considered a religion by many of its followers) founded in 1966 by Anton Szandor LaVey. Its teachings are based on individualism, self-indulgence, and "eye for an eye" morality. Unlike Theistic Satanists, LaVeyan Satanists are atheists who regard Satan as a symbol of man's inherent nature. According to religioustolerance.org, LaVeyan Satanism is a "small religious group that is unrelated to any other faith, and whose members feel free to satisfy their urges responsibly, exhibit kindness to their friends, and attack their enemies". Its beliefs were first detailed in The Satanic Bible and it is overseen by the Church of Satan.

From Wikki


There are several types of satanism, the one you are probably more familiar with is the theistic satanism, where satan is worshipped as a god.

Honey
Honey 56

What did satan do that was so bad? Why did God have to punish him?

The following scriptures expalin......

12How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
13You said in your heart,
“I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.c
14I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.”

Isaiah 14

11The word of the Lord came to me: 12“Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:
“‘You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire,b turquoise and beryl.c
Your settings and mountingsd were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you
.
Ezekiel 28

He wanted to be a god, he wanted the worship that belonged to Almiighty God, but he was a created being, a being who was created to be a messenger and protector of God’s people.
Instead of which he caused the downfall of humanity by tempting Eve and making Adam disobedient to his creator.
gone

All Satan did was stick two fingers up to the very nasty deity, good for him!
IvyOwl

Hi Honey and Powwow,

Thanks for the info on the LeVeyan Satanism. Riiiight so he didn't see Satan as real but merely a symbol. He wasn't actually worshipping the Satan that you believe in as a reality was he then?

Quote:
He wanted to be a god, he wanted the worship that belonged to Almiighty God, but he was a created being, a being who was created to be a messenger and protector of God’s people.
Instead of which he caused the downfall of humanity by tempting Eve and making Adam disobedient to his creator.

That is certainly one take on Satan but I understand there are other interpretations of just who Satan was and what his role was within the Judean mythos.

I do not believe that the OT myths are about real people or entities. I appreciate that you do and  I also appreciate that you sincerely wish other people to share in the happiness that you feel in espousing those beliefs.

I'm convinced that all gods are manmade, they come with interesting stories all of them. Norse Greek Roman etc. They are of value for showing us how our ancestors and those of other cultures thought about their world and how they explained things that they didn't have the scientific knowledge to understand.

Anyway I'll say no more as this thread is about Satanism and I just wanted to make the point that the neo pagans are not devils worshippers just because they don't hold that the god you believe in is the 'One true one'.

IO
Honey 56

After the fall of Humanity, people started to turn away from Almighty God, the  El-o-him/YHWH,  their creator  and instead they started to worship demons and idols, even sacrificing their own children through the fires.

Deuteronomy 32.
He abandoned the God who made him
and rejected the Rock his Savior.
16They made him jealous with their foreign gods
and angered him with their detestable idols.
17They sacrificed to demons, which are not God—
gods they had not known,
gods that recently appeared,
gods your fathers did not fear.
18You deserted the Rock, who fathered you;
you forgot the God who gave you birth.


Rev 9
20they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. 21Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

These people became experts in the occult practices that are an abomination to the God who created and loved them.
cyberman

Willow wrote:
All Satan did was stick two fingers up to the very nasty deity, good for him!


So you believe he exists then?
Shaker

cyberman wrote:
Willow wrote:
All Satan did was stick two fingers up to the very nasty deity, good for him!


So you believe he exists then?

It's quite usual for people to comment in this way on fictional tales, cyber. Don't pretend otherwise - you're not always this stupid, as you've just told SceptiKarl.
Honey 56

The definition of Occult/Ocultism from Wikki

Occultism

Occultism is the term used to describe the study of occult practices including (but not limited to) magic, alchemy, extra-sensory perception, astrology, spiritualism, and divination. Interpretation of occultism and its concepts can be found in the belief structures of religions such as Gnosticism, Hermeticism, Theosophy, Wicca, Thelema, Satanism, and Neopaganism
gone

cyberman wrote:
Willow wrote:
All Satan did was stick two fingers up to the very nasty deity, good for him!


So you believe he exists then?


Of course I do, like I believe in goblins, elves, fairies and leprechauns they all live together in some parallel universe sticking their tongues out at the deity who lives there too!
gone

Honey 56 wrote:
The definition od Occult/Ocultism from Wikki

Occultism

Occultism is the term used to describe the study of occult practices including (but not limited to) magic, alchemy, extra-sensory perception, astrology, spiritualism, and divination. Interpretation of occultism and its concepts can be found in the belief structures of religions such as Gnosticism, Hermeticism, Theosophy, Wicca, Thelema, Satanism, and Neopaganism


There is NO difference between that lot of hocus pocus, and the stuff some so called 'spirit filled' Christians indulge, all out of the same stable! I have witnessed it many times in my life, and even when I was a believer I as very uncomfortable with the outpourings of these people, which seem the wrong side of sane to me.
cyberman

Shaker wrote:
cyberman wrote:
Willow wrote:
All Satan did was stick two fingers up to the very nasty deity, good for him!


So you believe he exists then?

It's quite usual for people to comment in this way on fictional tales, cyber. Don't pretend otherwise - you're not always this stupid, as you've just told SceptiKarl.


OK - so (advocating for Willow) you are claiming that she is commenting on the existing Christian story if Satan, not stating her own beliefs. Fair enough.

So, Willow - your understanding of the Christian story of Satan is that Christians believe that "all Satan did" was stick two fingers up at God. hmm I am not sure you are quite right about that being the story. (And, no, I am not talking about the two fingers being metaphorical, so lets not go with that red herring).

I think you need to research this story before commenting on it further.

It's like saying "All Darth Vader did was challenge the stick-in-the-muds of the Establishment".
Honey 56

Willow wrote:
Honey 56 wrote:
The definition od Occult/Ocultism from Wikki

Occultism

Occultism is the term used to describe the study of occult practices including (but not limited to) magic, alchemy, extra-sensory perception, astrology, spiritualism, and divination. Interpretation of occultism and its concepts can be found in the belief structures of religions such as Gnosticism, Hermeticism, Theosophy, Wicca, Thelema, Satanism, and Neopaganism


There is NO difference between that lot of hocus pocus, and the stuff some so called 'spirit filled' Christians indulge, all out of the same stable! I have witnessed it many times in my life, and even when I was a believer I as very uncomfortable with the outpourings of these people, which seem the wrong side of sane to me.


Willow,

Did you realise that Jesus was accused of the same thing? driving out demons by the power of beelzebub?  Jesus told them that we was operating under the power of the Holy Spirit, and to say otherwise was blasphemy, not against Jesus, but against the Holy Spirit, Jesus also warned that this was the unforgivable sin.

Honey
Shaker

cyberman wrote:
OK - so (advocating for Willow) you are claiming that she is commenting on the existing Christian story if Satan, not stating her own beliefs.

Precisely.

Quote:
Fair enough.

No worries.
gone

Honey 56 wrote:
Willow wrote:
Honey 56 wrote:
The definition od Occult/Ocultism from Wikki

Occultism

Occultism is the term used to describe the study of occult practices including (but not limited to) magic, alchemy, extra-sensory perception, astrology, spiritualism, and divination. Interpretation of occultism and its concepts can be found in the belief structures of religions such as Gnosticism, Hermeticism, Theosophy, Wicca, Thelema, Satanism, and Neopaganism


There is NO difference between that lot of hocus pocus, and the stuff some so called 'spirit filled' Christians indulge, all out of the same stable! I have witnessed it many times in my life, and even when I was a believer I as very uncomfortable with the outpourings of these people, which seem the wrong side of sane to me.


Willow,

Did you realise that Jesus was accused of the same thing? driving out demons by the power of beelzebub?  Jesus told them that we was operating under the power of the Holy Spirit, and to say otherwise was blasphemy, not against Jesus, but against the Holy Spirit, Jesus also warned that this was the unforgivable sin.

Honey


Sorry Honey, but I don't believe Jesus drove out any demons. Either the story isn't true, or the guy was a clever showman and could with sleight of hand, and other rouses, convince people the hocus pocus they were experiencing was something it wasn't . As for the HS thingy, which naturally I don't believe exists, telling people they mustn't say rude things about it, or else, is as credible as the bogeyman under the bed!

Honey I realise you believe all the stuff in the Bible to be true, I think you said you got converted to this version of Christianity when you were in your 30s.

However as you know I was brought up with the dogma and you also know it spoilt what should have been an idyllic childhood, sun, sand and sea! I wish to goodness my parents had been atheists, or at worst moderate Christians who didn't bang on about the 'wonderful gentle Jesus meek and mild' dying for my sins, and me having to get 'saved' or else! Or to be told at six years old that if Jesus came that night I would be left behind and my parents taken. I managed to withstand the pressure to 'give my heart to Jesus' until I was eleven, but in the end succumbed. In retrospect I think I might have been resentful that I gave in. but when you have you family and your church on your back it is very hard not to capitulate. Anyway I gave the 'born again' bit some wellie and was even embarrassingly devout for a while, spouting all the things fundies still come out with! I tried to suppress the doubts, which came more pressing as I got to be a teenager. The doubts were helped along by this experience.  At the age of ten, before I got 'saved' I did something a tiny bit naughty with a boy at my school, basically no more than if I show you mine, you show me yours! However up on the school playground wall he wrote he had actually gone the whole way with me, like he was capable, as he was only ten too! Of course I was teased unmercifully! I knew that if my parents had got to hear about the 'incident' all hell would have broken loose. Not so much what I had done, but who I had done it with. The boy's family wasn't in our supposed social strata! If it had been Prince Charles, or the young lords and viscounts who visited the Queen's cousin who lived in the next property I probably would have had no more than a slap on the wrist! I lay awake many a night for a couple of years hoping it would all go away. I sincerely prayed to Jesus to help me though it, but never for the slightest second did I ever have any feeling of his presence, ever!

Anyway when I began to read the Bible, without the notes that told you what to believe about the verses concerned, I realised that I just couldn't accept it as true. It was a relief to move to the UK, when I married, and kick it all into touch. My husband, also a 'born again', had studied science and theology for his first degree, the more he studied the less he believed, and lost his faith too.

I don't regret my unbelief, in fact it is a huge relief not to believe in that particular Christian dogma, which certainly did me no favours at all.
Powwow

Willow,
"Withstand the pressure......succumbed.....resentful....gave in."
Sorry to say Willow but you were never born again, you were never saved.
Honey 56

Willow wrote:
[quote="Honey 56:72823

Willow,

Did you realise that Jesus was accused of the same thing? driving out demons by the power of beelzebub?  Jesus told them that we was operating under the power of the Holy Spirit, and to say otherwise was blasphemy, not against Jesus, but against the Holy Spirit, Jesus also warned that this was the unforgivable sin.

Honey


Quote:
Sorry Honey, but I don't believe Jesus drove out any demons. Either the story isn't true, or the guy was a clever showman and could with sleight of hand, and other rouses, convince people the hocus pocus they were experiencing was something it wasn't . As for the HS thingy, which naturally I don't believe exists, telling people they mustn't say rude things about it, or else, is as credible as the bogeyman under the bed!

Honey I realise you believe all the stuff in the Bible to be true, I think you said you got converted to this version of Christianity when you were in your 30s.

However as you know I was brought up with the dogma and you also know it spoilt what should have been an idyllic childhood, sun, sand and sea! I wish to goodness my parents had been atheists, or at worst moderate Christians who didn't bang on about the 'wonderful gentle Jesus meek and mild' dying for my sins, and me having to get 'saved' or else! Or to be told at six years old that if Jesus came that night I would be left behind and my parents taken. I managed to withstand the pressure to 'give my heart to Jesus' until I was eleven, but in the end succumbed. In retrospect I think I might have been resentful that I gave in. but when you have you family and your church on your back it is very hard not to capitulate. Anyway I gave the 'born again' bit some wellie and was even embarrassingly devout for a while, spouting all the things fundies still come out with! I tried to suppress the doubts, which came more pressing as I got to be a teenager. The doubts were helped along by this experience.  At the age of ten, before I got 'saved' I did something a tiny bit naughty with a boy at my school, basically no more than if I show you mine, you show me yours! However up on the school playground wall he wrote he had actually gone the whole way with me, like he was capable, as he was only ten too! Of course I was teased unmercifully! I knew that if my parents had got to hear about the 'incident' all hell would have broken loose. Not so much what I had done, but who I had done it with. The boy's family wasn't in our supposed social strata! If it had been Prince Charles, or the young lords and viscounts who visited the Queen's cousin who lived in the next property I probably would have had no more than a slap on the wrist! I lay awake many a night for a couple of years hoping it would all go away. I sincerely prayed to Jesus to help me though it, but never for the slightest second did I ever have any feeling of his presence, ever!

Anyway when I began to read the Bible, without the notes that told you what to believe about the verses concerned, I realised that I just couldn't accept it as true. It was a relief to move to the UK, when I married, and kick it all into touch. My husband, also a 'born again', had studied science and theology for his first degree, the more he studied the less he believed, and lost his faith too.

I don't regret my unbelief, in fact it is a huge relief not to believe in that particualr Christian dogma, which certainly did me no favours at all


Hi Willow,

I know what a terrible time you had growing up, I also know where you grew up and you are correct it should have been idyllic. Your guardians, and in this I would include the church were wrong, pure and simple,to say they didn't understand is an understatement. You have been made to feel guilty and unworthy and no child should have to endure this,from anyone. least of all their friends and family. From what I have read and understood about Jesus, He would never have made a little child feel this way, in fact He encouraged them and told them that kingdom of God.was theirs.

As you know Willow my childhood was far from idyllic, I lived with a great deal of shame too, not caused by my own parents, but they didn't really help my situation. Jesus literally saved my life at thirty something, looking back it was at exactly the right time I was at the end, didn't know how to live anymore, but He rescued me, tht's all I can tell you, I didn't ask Him, He asked me, suddenly, unexpectedly He was there, and that part of my life is now history, thankfully.

I don't know why Jesus couldn't reach you, but I am certain it wasn't because He didn't want to, or was indifferent to your pain in some way, but you have the solution very close to you right now, I know you have told me that it isn't somewhere you want to go, but, perhaps the answers you are looking for are not so far from home? I pray with all my heart that He will make Himself known to you one day Willow, that one day He will be able to bind up all your pain and love away all the hurt, He did it for me, and believe me I am nothing special, quite the opposite in fact!

Perhas you are no longer looking, if that is fine for you, well as long as you are content now, who am I to argue  

You say I believe, and you are right, I think you understand just how important my faitth is to me, I understand that will not be the case for everyone, it makes me sad, but I have to accept it.
But I hope you understand that I needed to respond to your post and why?

One thing wonderful did come out of your suffering Willow, woe betide anyone who would try to hurt any of your brood, (Same here)
You have been a wonderful Mum to your own and other peoples children.

Honey.

P.s when I was struggling to forgive the person who hurt me, because I didn't feel I could talk about it with a Holy and perfect God, I didn't think I could tell Him what had happened to me, I found a scripture,

Matthew 18

2He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5“And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea



10“See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven


I knew then my Heavenly Father knew, all of it, I found myself able to forgive this person and I asked God to forgive them too, honestly and from the heart.
Jim

Sadly, willow, some Christians can be dogmatic, authoritarian bullies. There is nothing in that of Christ, as far as I can see.
Here's an Adrian Plass quote that sums up my idea of what a Born again believer should - or shouldn't - be:

BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN:
1)Person who has entered into a glorious new life with Christ.
2)A tautology. The response to one who asks if one is a born-again Christian might well be "What's the other sort, then?"
3) Ill mannered and misguided believers who try to stuff their boring beliefs down other people's throats. Not to labour the point, but perhaps those of us who have been remiss enough to unwittingly persuade non-Christians that the latter definition is the correct one should reflect on the fact that the famous nocturnal encounter between Jesus and Nicodemus in John's Gospel did not proceed like this:

    Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the ruling council. He came to Jesus at night, saying; "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. No-one could perform the miracles and signs that you are doing if God were not with him."
In reply, Jesus declared; "I tell you the truth; no-one can see the Kingdom of God unless he becomes a bigoted, narrow-minded git."
( From 'Bacon Sandwiches and Salvation. )
gone

pow wow wrote:
Willow,
"Withstand the pressure......succumbed.....resentful....gave in."
Sorry to say Willow but you were never born again, you were never saved.


Well whatever, who cares, I don't, none of it matters now.
gone

Jim wrote:
Sadly, willow, some Christians can be dogmatic, authoritarian bullies. There is nothing in that of Christ, as far as I can see.
Here's an Adrian Plass quote that sums up my idea of what a Born again believer should - or shouldn't - be:

BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN:
1)Person who has entered into a glorious new life with Christ.
2)A tautology. The response to one who asks if one is a born-again Christian might well be "What's the other sort, then?"
3) Ill mannered and misguided believers who try to stuff their boring beliefs down other people's throats. Not to labour the point, but perhaps those of us who have been remiss enough to unwittingly persuade non-Christians that the latter definition is the correct one should reflect on the fact that the famous nocturnal encounter between Jesus and Nicodemus in John's Gospel did not proceed like this:

    Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the ruling council. He came to Jesus at night, saying; "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. No-one could perform the miracles and signs that you are doing if God were not with him."
In reply, Jesus declared; "I tell you the truth; no-one can see the Kingdom of God unless he becomes a bigoted, narrow-minded git."
( From 'Bacon Sandwiches and Salvation. )


But actually the Biblical Jesus could be crass from time to time judging by some of the statements he is supposed to have made. But then of course he was human like the rest of us, with faults and failings, as well as some good bits too!
cyberman

Willow wrote:

But actually the Biblical Jesus could be crass from time to time judging by some of the statements he is supposed to have made.


Which of his sayings (or alleged sayings) would you say were "crass"?
Powwow

This house of flesh is but a prison
bars of bones
hold my soul
but the doors of clay
are gonna burst right open
when the angel
sets my spirit free
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5...bbg&feature=player_detailpage
Shaker

Powsers why didn't you just say wibble wibble wibble wibble wibble wibble wibble and make more sense?
Powwow

If I said wibble then that would make us both wibblers Shaker! You're too much as it is. But thanks for caring and thanks for sharing old man.

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