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Lexilogio

Stem Cell Research

Last night on TV, a man working for the clerical dept of a hospital, to look after the spiritual needs of Muslim patients (sorry, I don't know if he was an iman), stated that stem cell research was fine, as in Islam, the foetus does not have a soul until 40 weeks old.

I wondered if this was true, and if so, are there also implications for neonatal units, where babies are born prematurely.

And it got me thinking about stem cell research. There are clearly huge benefits - but I have strong reservations about experiments on human foetuses.
gone

I have no problems with using foetuses for research, waste not want not. However producing foetuses souly for research would not be ethical.
cyberman

floo wrote:
. However producing foetuses souly for research would not be ethical.


Why not?
gone

cyberman wrote:
floo wrote:
. However producing foetuses souly for research would not be ethical.


Why not?


I would have thought that obvious!
cyberman

floo wrote:
cyberman wrote:
floo wrote:
. However producing foetuses souly for research would not be ethical.


Why not?


I would have thought that obvious!


Well I think it is unethical, but I know you don't share my beliefs.

Your answer has an air of the emperor's new clothes about it  - do you have a reason for believing it to be unethical or not?
gone

cyberman wrote:
floo wrote:
cyberman wrote:
floo wrote:
. However producing foetuses souly for research would not be ethical.


Why not?


I would have thought that obvious!


Well I think it is unethical, but I know you don't share my beliefs.

Your answer has an air of the emperor's new clothes about it  - do you have a reason for believing it to be unethical or not?


You don't have to be a Christian, or person of faith, to believe certain things are unethical like creating a foetus for the soul purpose of experimenting on it. Obviously if one is lost through miscarriage or abortion, which is unfortunate, then you are in a different ball game.
cyberman

floo wrote:

You don't have to be a Christian, or person of faith, to believe certain things are unethical like creating a foetus for the soul purpose of experimenting on it.


I know. I never said otherwise.

You are still dodging the question. Why do you think it is unethical?
gone

cyberman wrote:
floo wrote:

You don't have to be a Christian, or person of faith, to believe certain things are unethical like creating a foetus for the soul purpose of experimenting on it.


I know. I never said otherwise.

You are still dodging the question. Why do you think it is unethical?


For the same reason you do I suppose!
cyberman

floo wrote:
cyberman wrote:
floo wrote:

You don't have to be a Christian, or person of faith, to believe certain things are unethical like creating a foetus for the soul purpose of experimenting on it.


I know. I never said otherwise.

You are still dodging the question. Why do you think it is unethical?


For the same reason you do I suppose!


Suppose what you like about my reasons.

Why do you consider it to be unethical? Don't you know your reason?
Pukon_the_Treen

cyberman is right.

This is something that most of us instinctively feel is wrong, but if we don't think a foetus has a right to life, then what is the problem with growing them in labs and harvesting them for stem cells, or whatever.

I don't agree with it, but I haven't come up with a convincing argument against it myself. Something about the motivation behind the creation of the life in the first place being wrong perhaps.
cyberman

I was just looking at old threads and came across this one. It is interesting, isn't it? Why is it that people from the 'disposable feotuses' school of thought object to the creation of foetuses for the purposes of research and/or stem cell harvesting?
genghiscant

Something to do with creating a possibly viable human with the sole intention of killing it perhaps. Just doesn't feel right.
cyberman

genghiscant wrote:
Something to do with creating a possibly viable human with the sole intention of killing it perhaps. Just doesn't feel right.


So is it the intention which makes it ethically OK to terminate a foetus in one circumstance, but unethical in another?
cymrudynnion

floo wrote:
cyberman wrote:
floo wrote:
cyberman wrote:
floo wrote:
. However producing foetuses souly for research would not be ethical.


Why not?


I would have thought that obvious!


Well I think it is unethical, but I know you don't share my beliefs.

Your answer has an air of the emperor's new clothes about it  - do you have a reason for believing it to be unethical or not?


You don't have to be a Christian, or person of faith, to believe certain things are unethical like creating a foetus for the soul purpose of experimenting on it. Obviously if one is lost through miscarriage or abortion, which is unfortunate, then you are in a different ball game.
Why are you in a different ball game and also at what point does the unborn child cease to be a foetus and be an unborn child (capable of surviving as an inddividual)?
genghiscant

genghiscant wrote:
Quote:
Something to do with creating a possibly viable human with the sole intention of killing it perhaps. Just doesn't feel right.



Quote:
So is it the intention which makes it ethically OK to terminate a foetus in one circumstance, but unethical in another?


Yes. Too much like farming.
Shrub Dweller

floo wrote:
cyberman wrote:
floo wrote:
cyberman wrote:
floo wrote:
. However producing foetuses souly for research would not be ethical.


Why not?


I would have thought that obvious!


Well I think it is unethical, but I know you don't share my beliefs.

Your answer has an air of the emperor's new clothes about it  - do you have a reason for believing it to be unethical or not?


You don't have to be a Christian, or person of faith, to believe certain things are unethical like creating a foetus for the soul purpose of experimenting on it. Obviously if one is lost through miscarriage or abortion, which is unfortunate, then you are in a different ball game.

But how would you know if the foetus was the result of a miscarriage. Once you create a market for foetuses people will use poverty in the third world to get them.

And women could be paid to get pregnant just to have it aborted at the desired stage.
Leonard James

OK, ban the practise, and let the people who might benefit from it just continue to suffer. Does that make you happier, Cyber?

I don't think there is anything immoral about using non-sentient fetuses to improve the quality of life of the sick. And if poverty-stricken women can improve their lot by giving support, why not? It's just another way to get help that they wouldn't get otherwise.
cyberman

Leonard James wrote:
OK, ban the practise, and let the people who might benefit from it just continue to suffer. Does that make you happier, Cyber?
.


Grow up, Len. This reads like petulance. I have not asked for it to be banned, have I? I haven't even said it is unethical. Secularists/non-religious types have said it is unethical, and I am genuinely curious about why they believe this.

So far we have got "too much like farming". Is farming unethical?

Don't flap, Len, I'm only asking questions.
cymrudynnion

cyberman wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
OK, ban the practise, and let the people who might benefit from it just continue to suffer. Does that make you happier, Cyber?
.


Grow up, Len. This reads like petulance. I have not asked for it to be banned, have I? I haven't even said it is unethical. Secularists/non-religious types have said it is unethical, and I am genuinely curious about why they believe this.

So far we have got "too much like farming". Is farming unethical?

Don't flap, Len, I'm only asking questions.

Farming can be very unethical
cyberman

cymrudynnion wrote:
cyberman wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
OK, ban the practise, and let the people who might benefit from it just continue to suffer. Does that make you happier, Cyber?
.


Grow up, Len. This reads like petulance. I have not asked for it to be banned, have I? I haven't even said it is unethical. Secularists/non-religious types have said it is unethical, and I am genuinely curious about why they believe this.

So far we have got "too much like farming". Is farming unethical?

Don't flap, Len, I'm only asking questions.

Farming can be very unethical


Can be - but is it necessarily?

Anything can be. Eating. Shopping. But is farming in itself an unethical practice?
Leonard James

cyberman wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
OK, ban the practise, and let the people who might benefit from it just continue to suffer. Does that make you happier, Cyber?
.


Grow up, Len. This reads like petulance. I have not asked for it to be banned, have I? I haven't even said it is unethical. Secularists/non-religious types have said it is unethical, and I am genuinely curious about why they believe this.

So far we have got "too much like farming". Is farming unethical?

Don't flap, Len, I'm only asking questions.

OK Cyber, I confess I am a tad irritated by the whole stem cell research argument. To protest about harvesting cells from non-sentient fetuses is quite idiotic, imo.

Farming could be said to be far worse, since there is the danger of causing suffering to helpless animals.
cyberman

Leonard James wrote:
OK Cyber, I confess I am a tad irritated by the whole stem cell research argument. To protest about harvesting cells from non-sentient fetuses is quite idiotic, imo.


Then ask your fellow non-religionists why they believe it to be unethical.
Leonard James

cyberman wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
OK Cyber, I confess I am a tad irritated by the whole stem cell research argument. To protest about harvesting cells from non-sentient fetuses is quite idiotic, imo.


Then ask your fellow non-religionists why they believe it to be unethical.

Ask them yourself if you want to know ... I don't.
cyberman

Leonard James wrote:
cyberman wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
OK Cyber, I confess I am a tad irritated by the whole stem cell research argument. To protest about harvesting cells from non-sentient fetuses is quite idiotic, imo.


Then ask your fellow non-religionists why they believe it to be unethical.

Ask them yourself if you want to know ... I don't.


I did.

(aren't you curious?)
Leonard James

cyberman wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
cyberman wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
OK Cyber, I confess I am a tad irritated by the whole stem cell research argument. To protest about harvesting cells from non-sentient fetuses is quite idiotic, imo.


Then ask your fellow non-religionists why they believe it to be unethical.

Ask them yourself if you want to know ... I don't.


I did.

(aren't you curious?)

Not really. Everybody has the right to their own opinion, so I suppose they have their reasons for believing it unethical.
cyberman

Leonard James wrote:
cyberman wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
cyberman wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
OK Cyber, I confess I am a tad irritated by the whole stem cell research argument. To protest about harvesting cells from non-sentient fetuses is quite idiotic, imo.


Then ask your fellow non-religionists why they believe it to be unethical.

Ask them yourself if you want to know ... I don't.


I did.

(aren't you curious?)

Not really. Everybody has the right to their own opinion, so I suppose they have their reasons for believing it unethical.


Good Lord! I am genuinely astonished by your lack of curiosity.

As for supposing they have heir reasons - floo has refused to offer one. genghis has offered a suggestion which is interesting, but I'd love to analyse it further.
genghiscant

Farming human fetuses is IMO unethical.
cyberman

genghiscant wrote:
Farming human fetuses is IMO unethical.


But this takes us right back to the beginning - why do you think farming foetuses is unethical?
genghiscant

genghiscant wrote:
Quote:
Farming human fetuses is IMO unethical.



Quote:
But this takes us right back to the beginning - why do you think farming foetuses is unethical?


I don't know really, it just doesn't feel right to me. I don't have the same problem with using foetuses that are the result of miscarriages or valid abortions. I think paying for foetuses should be illegal.
bnabernard

Whats the problem with farming apes, after all there's not supposed to be much difference, and I'm constantly informed that we evolved from them?

bernard    
cyberman

bnabernard wrote:
Whats the problem with farming apes, after all there's not supposed to be much difference, and I'm constantly informed that we evolved from them?

bernard    


Not much difference between what?

Who has told you we evolved from apes? We did not.
genghiscant

Quote:
Whats the problem with farming apes


What on earth are you talking about? What's this got to do with human fetuses?

Quote:
after all there's not supposed to be much difference


I suggest you look at a picture of an ape, then look at a human & see if you can spot any differences.( And no jokes about Wayne Rooney).
Lexilogio

genghiscant wrote:
( And no jokes about Wayne Rooney).






Emile Zola?
bnabernard

cyberman wrote:
bnabernard wrote:
Whats the problem with farming apes, after all there's not supposed to be much difference, and I'm constantly informed that we evolved from them?

bernard    


Not much difference between what?

Who has told you we evolved from apes? We did not.


But the very people who tell you that you evolved from apes will tell you there is significant difference between the ape and humans as to make farming apes an impossible scenario.

God give me strength with the one track minded who cant spot a p*ss take when it's made  

bernard  
cyberman

bnabernard wrote:

But the very people who tell you that you evolved from apes will tell you there is significant difference between the ape and humans as to make farming apes an impossible scenario.


Who are the people who tell you we evolved from apes? We didn't.
bnabernard

Why didn't you?

bernard  
cyberman

bnabernard wrote:
Why didn't you?

bernard  


Why will nobody ever answer a fucking question!?

Bernard, you have said that you have been told that we evolved from apes.

Who told you this?
bnabernard

cyberman wrote:
bnabernard wrote:
Why didn't you?

bernard  


Why will nobody ever answer a fucking question!?

Bernard, you have said that you have been told that we evolved from apes.

Who told you this?


Why do you want to know who told me this?

You have absolved yourself and any others that make up the 'we' who are the 'we' by the way?

bernard  
cyberman

bnabernard wrote:
cyberman wrote:
bnabernard wrote:
Why didn't you?

bernard  


Why will nobody ever answer a fucking question!?

Bernard, you have said that you have been told that we evolved from apes.

Who told you this?


Why do you want to know who told me this?

You have absolved yourself and any others that make up the 'we' who are the 'we' by the way?

bernard  


The "we" is the human race.
You have said that you have been told that we evolved from apes. Humans did not evolve from apes, and I don't think anyone told you that humans did evolve from apes.
Who do you claim has told you this?

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