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Jim

The Lord's Prayer.

We've prayed it, read it, maybe even got fed up listening to it, but the 'Lord's Prayer' has become embedded in Christian culture.
Though parts of what we call the Lord's Prayer are found in the Gospels, the complete version is only found in the Didache, or "Teaching of the Twelve Apostles", once part of the N.T canon, but removed on the grounds of dubious authorship.

There's one word that has always intrigued me: In the line "give us this day our daily bread", in the original Koine, the word the KJV translates as "daily", is 'epiousios- a curious word which actually translates (approximately) as tomorrow.
"Give us today our tomorrow bread" - or "Give us today our bread for tomorrow" puts a whole new slant on things, doesn't it?
Powwow

Why is this making me think about the wandering tribes and how they would have to go out each morning and collect the manna that God had provided for them for the day?
Jim

You mean the 'Bread of Heaven' as the hymn has it; the manna.
Yes, I thought of that, pow wow. But I think the sense here is rather the spiritual nourishment we need to cope, rather than food for our bellies.
After all, the verses both before and after talk about spiritual things..."For give us our sins...." and "Do not bring us to the test".
That makes me think that this phrase is a plea for us to be nourished by the Spirit, presumably through the word, or study, so that we could get a greater understanding of our relationship with God, which is encapsulated in the prayer.
Powwow

Hi Jim.
I get that. I was just thinking that we are asking for a continual supply of bread (spiritual). Unlike the Jews who had to go out each morning and collect their bread (not  spiritual) for only the one day. I don't know, just a thought.
Jim

And a good one.
That's making ME think.
The Jews depended on the manna; with out that, and the quails, they would simply die of starvation.
That's why, I suppose, Jesus put the 'epiousios' in there - daily bread, tomorrow bread, whatever. He knew that, without us constantly refreshing ourselves spiritualy, or learning mor about Him and His plans in our lives, depending on Him, we would simply die spiritually.
Lexilogio

Sorry to be late in to this one. Επισιος is not quite tomorrow, it translates as ongoing, an extra which continues.
Jim

Lexi, yes, I know;
I was taking liberties a little, but the point I was making by doing so is that we limit the sense of the phrase by translating it as "daily bread". I feel it has a more spiritual sense, given its' context in both the Gospel and Didache settings.
Lexilogio

Jim wrote:
Lexi, yes, I know;
I was taking liberties a little, but the point I was making by doing so is that we limit the sense of the phrase by translating it as "daily bread". I feel it has a more spiritual sense, given its' context in both the Gospel and Didache settings.


It does, it is more as something extra we receive, an addition to that which we have.
Jim

It's interesting that, despite rejecting the Didache from the canon on the grounds of dubious authorship - or, more probably, the 'Jewishness' of the book, the church retains the entirity of the prayer which can only be found in a book they rejected!
cyberman

Jim wrote:
It's interesting that, despite rejecting the Didache from the canon on the grounds of dubious authorship - or, more probably, the 'Jewishness' of the book, the church retains the entirity of the prayer which can only be found in a book they rejected!


Not all the church does so...
Jim

Cyberman;
I'm aware that the Ethiopian Orthodox and Coptic Churches accept the Didache as canonical.
Doesn't the R.C Church, along with some Reformed denominations accept it as deuterocanonical?
I know I use it sometimes in my daily devotion, though it is deemed as 'not suitable for public reading' in the CofS.
cyberman

In the RC church, when we say the prayer in daily life, when end at "..deliver us from evil. Amen."

At mass, we also end it there, but then (after another prayer is said by the priest) we do add the doxology. In an English mass we say the prayer itself in Shakespearey King Jamesy English, and the doxology in Modern English. (When I say "English" I mean the language, I don't mean in England).
richie

Re: The Lord's Prayer.

Jim wrote:
We've prayed it, read it, maybe even got fed up listening to it, but the 'Lord's Prayer' has become embedded in Christian culture.
Though parts of what we call the Lord's Prayer are found in the Gospels, the complete version is only found in the Didache, or "Teaching of the Twelve Apostles", once part of the N.T canon, but removed on the grounds of dubious authorship.


I've never heard that before. I know that there are more than a few books which have been redacted out of the NT over the years for various political reasons (and if you're honest you'd admit that its rarely purely on religous grounds).

However, I didn't realise that there was a fuller version of the Lords Prayer out there somewhere. Is this text online anywhere?

Quote:

There's one word that has always intrigued me: In the line "give us this day our daily bread", in the original Koine, the word the KJV translates as "daily", is 'epiousios- a curious word which actually translates (approximately) as tomorrow.
"Give us today our tomorrow bread" - or "Give us today our bread for tomorrow" puts a whole new slant on things, doesn't it?


Thats the thing with translations though. Some words rarely move between languages intact and what I would find more important would be what would "epiousios" mean to a 1st Century greek speaker. Would it mean "tomorrow" or "now". Yes we can find out the literal meaning of the word, but in many languages the understood meaning changes due to context so may not mean what we expect it to
Jim

Re: The Lord's Prayer.

Hi, Richie;
Try
www.paracletepress.com/didache.html
8:2, & 10:5 contain the two halves of what we now see as the "Lord's Prayer".
The whole book makes very interesting reading, though.
richie

Cheers Jim

Will have a gander
richie

Have to say, for me, the most interesting section was "concerning baptism" which seemed, to me at least, to back up everything I ever thought on the subject (with the only difference being the infant aspect)

Found the English used a bit off if you know what I mean. The style didn't flow particulary for me
Jim

Yep.
I was more interested in the light it shed on the first and cecond century church life and practices. Most of the document was written at or araound the same time as the Revelation, i.e, 85-100AD, though there seem to have been a few late second century additions. I've heard of many Christian and quasi-Christian groups say they're trying to get back to 'first century Christianity'.
They appear never to have read the blueprint!
Powwow

At dad and mom's funerals we recited the Lord's Prayer just as it is written in my wonderful King James Bible.
Truster

Re: The Lord's Prayer.

Jim wrote:
We've prayed it, read it, maybe even got fed up listening to it, but the 'Lord's Prayer' has become embedded in Christian culture.
Though parts of what we call the Lord's Prayer are found in the Gospels, the complete version is only found in the Didache, or "Teaching of the Twelve Apostles", once part of the N.T canon, but removed on the grounds of dubious authorship.

There's one word that has always intrigued me: In the line "give us this day our daily bread", in the original Koine, the word the KJV translates as "daily", is 'epiousios- a curious word which actually translates (approximately) as tomorrow.
"Give us today our tomorrow bread" - or "Give us today our bread for tomorrow" puts a whole new slant on things, doesn't it?


 ''Give us daily our subsistence bread'', is a more accurate translation.
Jim

Re: The Lord's Prayer.

Dunno what you're going to say, truster, but as far as the Didache goes, I find it, and other post canonical (but non-Gnostic) second century writings fascinating as an insight into the development of practice in the early Church.

As for the prayer we find in the Gospels, obviously the Lord never meant it to be prayed verbatim..."This is HOW", not "This is What".
However it is useful as an aid to prayer, even if sometimes we take the words for granted.
I use it as a model for my personal prayer time, as a structure round which I can form my own prayer.
(which is what, as far as I'm concerned, the Lord intended)
Jim

Re: The Lord's Prayer.

truster;
I've seen the word - which is unusual in 'classic' (Attic') greek, virtually unknown in Koine, translated s
"oncoming"
""Ongoing"
""Active assisting"
"future affirmatory".
The limitations in translation into the shifting sands of modern English make an exact transliteration approximate.
I've used "tomorrow" as a rough approximation, that word being suggested as as good as any other transliteration by the late Prof William Barclay, senior in N.T. Greek at Glasgow University.
Truster

Re: The Lord's Prayer.

Jim wrote:
Dunno what you're going to say, truster, but as far as the Didache goes, I find it, and other post canonical (but non-Gnostic) second century writings fascinating as an insight into the development of practice in the early Church.

As for the prayer we find in the Gospels, obviously the Lord never meant it to be prayed verbatim..."This is HOW", not "This is What".
However it is useful as an aid to prayer, even if sometimes we take the words for granted.
I use it as a model for my personal prayer time, as a structure round which I can form my own prayer.
(which is what, as far as I'm concerned, the Lord intended)


It saddens me when I hear the words, which as far as I'm concerned, I guess, I think or I believe. You are so far from the knowledge of the truth jim, but it would seem you are satisfied in your ignorance.
Jim

Re: The Lord's Prayer.

Wot?
Do you think the Lord intended us to go through the motions of using the words formulaically like a Dalek with a hangover, then?
He did say "This is how you should pray...."
Indicating the personal nature of the concept, the structure of the prayer and, as an addendum, the consequences of not forgiving others.
Seems like a layout of structured prayer to me.
Truster

Re: The Lord's Prayer.

Jim wrote:
Wot?
Do you think the Lord intended us to go through the motions of using the words formulaically like a Dalek with a hangover, then?
He did say "This is how you should pray...."
Indicating the personal nature of the concept, the structure of the prayer and, as an addendum, the consequences of not forgiving others.
Seems like a layout of structured prayer to me.


''And he said to them, when ever ye pray, word, Our Fatherů.''

There are mistranslations in scripture and the word 'say' as opposed to 'word' is one of them. I don't expect you to understand the significance of this.
Jim

Re: The Lord's Prayer.

Why not, pray?
Truster

Re: The Lord's Prayer.

Jim wrote:
Why not, pray?


If you care to prove wrong, feel free.

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