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LeClerc

The Messiah in The Tanakh

Hi all

Farmer has made the following statement.

Farmer Geddon wrote:
So there is no reference to Jesus in the OT Lexi?

There is hope for you yet!!

LOL


Luke 2
29 “Lord, now You are letting Your servant depart in peace,
According to Your word;
30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation
31 Which You have prepared before the face of all peoples,


The Hebrew word translated into English as salvation is pronounced Yeshua.

You will find Yeshua throught the Tanakh

Exodus 15
YHWH is my strength and song, He has become my salvation (Hebrew pronounced Yeshua) This is my God, and I will praise him; My father's God, and I will exalt him.

LeClerc
bnabernard

A full reading can be had here

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bi...xd&c=15&v=1&t=KJV#top

bernard (hug)
Farmer Geddon

Really...

I agree that the words in Scripture that you quote mean "Salvation": sōtērios [G4992] and yĕshuw`ah [H3444] respectively.

But the phrase/word you are struggling to shoehorn into your premise; is that they mean Joshua/Yĕhowshuwa` [H3091]. Which doesn't work.

Sōtērios in an adjective, as in a 'describing' word.

Yĕshuw`ah is one of those strange feminine nouns, where those seeking the salvation become the passive participle.

The word that you won't find in any of your quotes is Yĕhowshuwa` which a proper masculine noun, usually donating the name of someone.

No matter how much you try to claim that sōtērios [G4992] and yĕshuw`ah [H3444] means Joshua/Yĕhowshuwa` [H3091], it will never work, because it just doesn't exist in Exodus 15:2, so nullifies your claim that it represents Joshua/Yĕhowshuwa` in Luke 2:30!!

It's OK - I forgive your indiscretion: most Christians don't know their yasha`[H3467] from their elbow.....
LeClerc

Morning Farmer

Farmer Geddon wrote:
Really...

I agree that the words in Scripture that you quote mean "Salvation": sōtērios [G4992] and yĕshuw`ah [H3444] respectively.

But the phrase/word you are struggling to shoehorn into your premise; is that they mean Joshua/Yĕhowshuwa` [H3091]. Which doesn't work.

Sōtērios in an adjective, as in a 'describing' word.

Yĕshuw`ah is one of those strange feminine nouns, where those seeking the salvation become the passive participle.

The word that you won't find in any of your quotes is Yĕhowshuwa` which a proper masculine noun, usually donating the name of someone.

No matter how much you try to claim that sōtērios [G4992] and yĕshuw`ah [H3444] means Joshua/Yĕhowshuwa` [H3091], it will never work, because it just doesn't exist in Exodus 15:2, so nullifies your claim that it represents Joshua/Yĕhowshuwa` in Luke 2:30!!

It's OK - I forgive your indiscretion: most Christians don't know their yasha`[H3467] from their elbow.....


Maybe you could post how the name of the Son of Nun was pronounced together with the Strongs ref

and then

how the name of the Son of Jozadak was pronounced together with the Strongs ref.

Thank you

LeClerc
bnabernard

So what we got now, the son of Yozadack is God now,  maddddd.gif

bernard (hug)
bnabernard

Tell you what Farmer, I reckon LC's a wum who normaly does the crown and anchor (three card trick) outside the dog track, what you reckon shells or cards?

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Morning Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
So what we got now, the son of Yozadack is God now,  maddddd.gif

bernard (hug)


No Bernie that is not the case.

How, when and why did the pronunciation Yahushua change to Yeshua ?

LeClerc
bnabernard

@fraid I'm right, you are playing find the lady again  

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Morning Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
@fraid I'm right, you are playing find the lady again  

bernard (hug)


No serious answer to the question then.

How, when and why did the pronunciation Yahushua change to Yeshua ?

LeClerc
bnabernard

not something Noah said, perhaps it was at the tower of Babel  

bernard (hug)
Farmer Geddon

Clercy:

Perhaps you can help me out here:

Why did "Yĕhowshuwa`/Yēšūă‘" get changed to Ἰησοῦς (Iēsous)?

(I refuse to use the made-up word "Yahushua" as it doesn't exist).
LeClerc

Morning Farmer

Farmer Geddon wrote:
Clercy:

Perhaps you can help me out here:

Why did "Yĕhowshuwa`/Yēšūă‘" get changed to Ἰησοῦς (Iēsous)?

(I refuse to use the made-up word "Yahushua" as it doesn't exist).


Lets begin by going back to the Tanakh and Deuteronomy 32 verse 44 as translated in the Septuagint.

32:44 καὶ ἔγραψεν Μωυσῆς τὴν ᾠδὴν ταύτην ἐν ἐκείνῃ τῇ ἡμέρᾳ καὶ ἐδίδαξεν αὐτὴν τοὺς υἱοὺς Ισραηλ καὶ εἰσῆλθεν Μωυσῆς καὶ ἐλάλησεν πάντας τοὺς λόγους τοῦ νόμου τούτου εἰς τὰ ὦτα τοῦ λαοῦ αὐτὸς καὶ Ἰησοῦς ὁ τοῦ Ναυη

Here we find the Greek word Ἰησοῦς (Iēsous).

Maybe you could be kind enough to post the Hebraic meaning ascribed the Greek Ἰησοῦς (Iēsous) in Deuteronomy 32 verse 44 from the Septuagint.

Thank you

LeClerc
Farmer Geddon

I have, several times on this thread.... but you seem to have a bit of a Sassy attitude...



How about you explain to me why you think Joshua got changed to Jesus?
LeClerc

Morning Farmer

Farmer Geddon wrote:

I have, several times on this thread.... but you seem to have a bit of a Sassy attitude...


Can't seem to find the post Farmer could you post it again please.

Just a reminder of the question.

Farmer Geddon wrote:
Clercy:

Perhaps you can help me out here:

Why did "Yĕhowshuwa`/Yēšūă‘" get changed to Ἰησοῦς (Iēsous)?

(I refuse to use the made-up word "Yahushua" as it doesn't exist).


Lets begin by going back to the Tanakh and Deuteronomy 32 verse 44 as translated in the Septuagint.

32:44 καὶ ἔγραψεν Μωυσῆς τὴν ᾠδὴν ταύτην ἐν ἐκείνῃ τῇ ἡμέρᾳ καὶ ἐδίδαξεν αὐτὴν τοὺς υἱοὺς Ισραηλ καὶ εἰσῆλθεν Μωυσῆς καὶ ἐλάλησεν πάντας τοὺς λόγους τοῦ νόμου τούτου εἰς τὰ ὦτα τοῦ λαοῦ αὐτὸς καὶ Ἰησοῦς ὁ τοῦ Ναυη

Here we find the Greek word Ἰησοῦς (Iēsous).

Maybe you could be kind enough to post the Hebraic meaning ascribed the Greek Ἰησοῦς (Iēsous) in Deuteronomy 32 verse 44 from the Septuagint.

Farmer Geddon wrote:

How about you explain to me why you think Joshua got changed to Jesus?


This is a different question to the one you asked earlier.

Farmer Geddon wrote:
Why did "Yĕhowshuwa`/Yēšūă‘" get changed to Ἰησοῦς (Iēsous)?


Are you referring to the following ?

In the KJV we have the following translations.

Acts 7 KJV
45 Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;

Hebrews 4 KJV
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

Whilst in the NKJV we have the following.

Acts 7 NKJV
45"which our fathers, having received it in turn, also brought with Joshua into the land possessed by the Gentiles, whom God drove out before the face of our fathers until the days of David,

Hebrews 4 NKJV
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day.

LeClerc
Farmer Geddon

No...

I'm asking you why you think Joshua got changed to Jesus.
cyberman

Farmer Geddon wrote:
No...

I'm asking you why you think Joshua got changed to Jesus.


Wasn't it just writers trying to Greekify an ungreek name?
LeClerc

Hi farmer

Farmer Geddon wrote:
No...

I'm asking you why you think Joshua got changed to Jesus.


We will come onto that, but you have avoided answering my earlier question

LeClerc wrote:
Morning Farmer

Farmer Geddon wrote:
Clercy:

Perhaps you can help me out here:

Why did "Yĕhowshuwa`/Yēšūă‘" get changed to Ἰησοῦς (Iēsous)?

(I refuse to use the made-up word "Yahushua" as it doesn't exist).


Lets begin by going back to the Tanakh and Deuteronomy 32 verse 44 as translated in the Septuagint.

32:44 καὶ ἔγραψεν Μωυσῆς τὴν ᾠδὴν ταύτην ἐν ἐκείνῃ τῇ ἡμέρᾳ καὶ ἐδίδαξεν αὐτὴν τοὺς υἱοὺς Ισραηλ καὶ εἰσῆλθεν Μωυσῆς καὶ ἐλάλησεν πάντας τοὺς λόγους τοῦ νόμου τούτου εἰς τὰ ὦτα τοῦ λαοῦ αὐτὸς καὶ Ἰησοῦς ὁ τοῦ Ναυη

Here we find the Greek word Ἰησοῦς (Iēsous).

Maybe you could be kind enough to post the Hebraic meaning ascribed the Greek Ἰησοῦς (Iēsous) in Deuteronomy 32 verse 44 from the Septuagint.

Thank you

LeClerc


An answer would be helpful.

LeClerc
bnabernard

cyberman wrote:
Farmer Geddon wrote:
No...

I'm asking you why you think Joshua got changed to Jesus.


Wasn't it just writers trying to Greekify an ungreek name?


A touch of the greeks saying '' giss it 'ere, we'll show you twats what it's all about''

bernard (hug)
Farmer Geddon

Acts 7:45. Hebrews 4:8

Are referring to the figure Jehowshua/Joshua as written in the Hebrew Holy Books.

Deut 32:44  The Oshea, son of nun in this verse is easily explained by referencing it against Numbers 13:16.

My quandary is: Why not just called him Joshua if that is his name?
LeClerc

Morning Farmer

Farmer Geddon wrote:
Acts 7:45. Hebrews 4:8

Are referring to the figure Jehowshua/Joshua as written in the Hebrew Holy Books.

Deut 32:44  The Oshea, son of nun in this verse is easily explained by referencing it against Numbers 13:16.

My quandary is: Why not just called him Joshua if that is his name?


My current understanding, which may not be correct, is that Joshua/Jeshua are the anglicized versions of Yehowshua/Yeshua.

If the early English translations of the scriptures were translated from the Latin and not directly from the Hebrew and the Greek the English name Jesu comes from the Latin Iesu

Matthew 1
liber generationis Iesu Christi filii David filii Abraham

http://www.latinvulgate.com/lv/verse.aspx?t=1&b=1

Turning to Acts 7 verse 45 in the Latin we read
quod et induxerunt suscipientes patres nostri cum Iesu in possessionem gentium quas expulit Deus a facie patrum nostrorum usque in diebus David

http://www.latinvulgate.com/lv/verse.aspx?t=1&b=5&c=7

and Hebrews 4 verse 8
nam si eis Iesus requiem praestitisset numquam de alio loqueretur posthac die

http://www.latinvulgate.com/lv/verse.aspx?t=1&b=19&c=4

Iesu and Iesus are both transliterated from the Greek Ἰησοῦ which in turn is transliterated from the Hebrew ''Yehowshua''

From the Latin Iesu and Iesus we get the English Jesu and Jesus.

Now if we turn to the Septuagint

Exodus 17 verse 9
εἶπεν δὲ Μωυσῆς τῷ Ἰησοῦ ἐπίλεξον σεαυτῷ ἄνδρας δυνατοὺς καὶ ἐξελθὼν παράταξαι τῷ Αμαληκ αὔριον καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἕστηκα ἐπὶ τῆς κορυφῆς τοῦ βουνοῦ καὶ ἡ ῥάβδος τοῦ θεοῦ ἐν τῇ χειρί μου

and 1 Chronicles 24 verse 11
τῷ Ἰησοῦ ὁ ἔνατος τῷ Σεχενια ὁ δέκατος

The Hebrew Yehowshua and Yeshua are both transliterated into the Greek as Ἰησοῦ.

My quandry is, if in Hebrew His name is pronounced Y'shua why not call Him Y'shua ?

If we visited another country would we desire to be called by the English pronunciation of our name or that country's equivalent.

LeClerc
Farmer Geddon

Oh Yeah I totally agree - Jesus is the Middle English bastardiation of the Roman Iesus, which in turn is the Latin Translation of the Greek Iēsous, from the Hebrew Yĕhôshúa‘ with the meaning "Yahweh is salvation" which is more often than not rendered as Joshua/Jeshua.

All the renditions mean  "Jehovah/Yahweh is salvation" - No problem with that.

What makes me go Mmmmm is; why, when it was translated into English in the 16/17 centuries, did they not just use the name Joshua?


**ETA**

What other names would I know you as Clercy - on other forums I mean!!
Farmer Geddon

Re: The Messiah in The Tanakh

LeClerc wrote:
Hi all

<snipped for convenience>

Exodus 15
YHWH is my strength and song, He has become my salvation (Hebrew pronounced Yeshua) This is my God, and I will praise him; My father's God, and I will exalt him.

LeClerc


Now we have established that "Yeshua" in Exodus 15 is not actually a name, as you tried to claim.

Have you got any other insights as to who or what, the Messiah is/will be in the Hebrew bible?
LeClerc

Morning Farmer

Farmer Geddon wrote:
Oh Yeah I totally agree - Jesus is the Middle English bastardiation of the Roman Iesus, which in turn is the Latin Translation of the Greek Iēsous, from the Hebrew Yĕhôshúa‘ with the meaning "Yahweh is salvation" which is more often than not rendered as Joshua/Jeshua.

All the renditions mean  "Jehovah/Yahweh is salvation" - No problem with that.


Having posted the above turning to

Farmer Geddon wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi all

<snipped for convenience>

Exodus 15
YHWH is my strength and song, He has become my salvation (Hebrew pronounced Yeshua) This is my God, and I will praise him; My father's God, and I will exalt him.

LeClerc


Now we have established that "Yeshua" in Exodus 15 is not actually a name, as you tried to claim.

Have you got any other insights as to who or what, the Messiah is/will be in the Hebrew bible?

Lets begin by going back to the Tanakh and Deuteronomy 32 verse 44 as translated in the Septuagint.

32:44 καὶ ἔγραψεν Μωυσῆς τὴν ᾠδὴν ταύτην ἐν ἐκείνῃ τῇ ἡμέρᾳ καὶ ἐδίδαξεν αὐτὴν τοὺς υἱοὺς Ισραηλ καὶ εἰσῆλθεν Μωυσῆς καὶ ἐλάλησεν πάντας τοὺς λόγους τοῦ νόμου τούτου εἰς τὰ ὦτα τοῦ λαοῦ αὐτὸς καὶ Ἰησοῦς ὁ τοῦ Ναυη

Here we find the Greek word Ἰησοῦς (Iēsous).

Maybe you could be kind enough to post the Hebraic meaning ascribed the Greek Ἰησοῦς (Iēsous) in Deuteronomy 32 verse 44 from the Septuagint.

Thank you

LeClerc
Farmer Geddon

You really are a bit thick aren't you?

The character in the above verse is Hosea or Hoshea or Oshea, ( a Proper Name Masculine), meaning "salvation" and is the family name of יהושוע Yĕhowshuwa`[H3091], the son of Nun...

It is from the root verb yâsha‛ [H3467] which means saved or delivered.



To reiterate:

Deut 32:44  The הושע Oshea` [H1954], בן ben  נון Nuwn  in this verse is easily explained by referencing it against Numbers 13:16.

Are you trying to claim it is a reference to the NT character Jesus?
LeClerc

Morning Farmer

Farmer Geddon wrote:
You really are a bit thick aren't you?

The character in the above verse is Hosea or Hoshea or Oshea, ( a Proper Name Masculine), meaning "salvation" and is the family name of Joshua, the son of Nun...

It is from the root verb yâsha‛ [H3467] which means saved or delivered.



To reiterate:

Deut 32:44  The Oshea [H1954], son of nun in this verse is easily explained by referencing it against Numbers 13:16.


So you agree we have evidence from the Septuagint that one meaning ascribed to the Greek Ἰησοῦς (Iēsous) is salvation.

Salvation in Hebrew is pronunced yeshüä is it not.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H3444

Turning to Luke 2
25 There was in Yerushalayim a man named Shim‘on. This man was a tzaddik, he was devout, he waited eagerly for God to comfort Isra’el, and the Ruach HaKodesh was upon him. 26 It had been revealed to him by the Ruach HaKodesh that he would not die before he had seen the Messiah of Adonai.27 Prompted by the Spirit, he went into the Temple courts; and when the parents brought in the child Yeshua to do for him what the Torah required, 28 Shim‘on took him in his arms, made a b’rakhah to God, and said, 29 “Now, Adonai, according to your word,your servant is at peace as you let him go; 30 for I have seen with my own eyes your yeshua,31which you prepared in the presence of all peoples —32 a light that will bring revelation to the Goyim and glory to your people Isra’el.”
33 Yeshua’s father and mother were marvelling at the things Shim‘on was saying about him. 34 Shim‘on blessed them and said to the child’s mother, Miryam,


LeClerc
Farmer Geddon

It's a friggin' noun, it's worse than that - it's a feminine noun - even your link tells you this: It's the passive participle of יָשַׁע (H3467) a verb that means to save, be saved or be delivered...

Do you not even have a basic grasp of grammar?
Farmer Geddon

Clercy - Talking to you is like explaining clouds to a 3 year old..

Grow up!!
LeClerc

Morning Farmer

Farmer Geddon wrote:
It's a friggin' noun, it's worse than that - it's a feminine noun - even your link tells you this: It's the passive participle of יָשַׁע (H3467) a verb that means to save, be saved or be delivered...

Do you not even have a basic grasp of grammar?


Your point being ?


Farmer Geddon wrote:
Clercy - Talking to you is like explaining clouds to a 3 year old..

Grow up!!


Exodus 13
21 And YHWH went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:

''anan'' Hebrew for cloud is a masculine noun

http://www.blueletterbible.org/la...xicon.cfm?Strongs=H6051&t=KJV

''esh'' Hebrew for fire is a feminine noun

http://www.blueletterbible.org/la...exicon.cfm?Strongs=H784&t=KJV

What is it you do not understand about masculine and feminine nouns in the Hebrew language.

LeClerc
bnabernard

Dust and combustion.

bernard (hug)
LeClerc

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Dust and combustion.

bernard (hug)


           

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