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Jim

Too small a price.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyP5_xVg9DQ


Thank You for the Cross, LORD.
Ketty

Re: Too small a price.

Jim wrote:

Link



Thank You for the Cross, LORD.


Amen.

How He suffered, and yet people make so light of it.
Leonard James

Re: Too small a price.

Ketty wrote:


How He suffered, and yet people make so light of it.


Many humans suffer just as terribly through no fault of their own. That's the way the world is. We can only try to lessen their suffering as much as possible.

What we cannot do is change the way the universe and life have evolved. That is up to the force that set it in motion.
Ketty

Re: Too small a price.

Leonard James wrote:

Many humans suffer just as terribly through no fault of their own.


So they do.  Suffering terribly is awful and there are really no weighing scales of any value when attempting to compare.  His suffering, more than any other (I would say, without research) is made light of by so many.
Shaker

Re: Too small a price.

Ketty wrote:
So they do.  Suffering terribly is awful and there are really no weighing scales of any value when attempting to compare.  His suffering, more than any other (I would say, without research) is made light of by so many.


It's the "without research" that's the problem, though - or it is as far as I'm concerned. We don't actually know what the suffering was.  

I think I'm on pretty safe ground in saying that innumerable people have died far, far worse deaths - I don't want to get into a gorefest but this man for starters.
JMC

Re: Too small a price.

Ketty wrote:
His suffering, more than any other (I would say, without research) is made light of by so many.


Yes: knowledge about Christ's suffering (that He was scourged, mocked, spat upon, beaten, then crucified) is widespread. As the "reports" of what Jesus underwent are well-known, the number of people who make light of it is statistically bound to be greater. Some people, of course, doubt that such events ever happened, and you can't make lighter of Jesus' sufferings than that! Even those who do believe cannot intellectually even begin to empathize with what Jesus went through, so there are even more who might tend to make light of what happened. Indeed, there are no doubt a good many Christians who do not seriously consider and meditate upon the suffering that Jesus underwent; this too can be considered "making light of it".

However, it should always be remembered that Christ's suffering and death was voluntary: thus what was a shameful death for Him was a moment of victory, and the Crucifixion was the prologue for the glorious Resurrection!

Shaker

Re: Too small a price.

JMC wrote:
Yes: Christ's suffering is well known

By whom, exactly?

Quote:
Indeed, there are no doubt a good many Christians who do not seriously consider and meditate upon the suffering that Jesus underwent

Which assumes that this alleged knowledge is a done deal. Says who?
Jim

Re: Too small a price.

JMC wrote:
Ketty wrote:
His suffering, more than any other (I would say, without research) is made light of by so many.


Yes: knowledge about Christ's suffering (that He was scourged, mocked, spat upon, beaten, then crucified) is widespread. As the "reports" of what Jesus are well-known, the number of people who make light of it is statistically bound to be greater. Some people, of course, doubt that such events ever happened, and you can't make lighter of Jesus' sufferings than that! Even those who do believe cannot intellectually even begin to empathize with what Jesus went through, so there are even more who might tend to make light of what happened. Indeed, there are no doubt a good many Christians who do not seriously consider and meditate upon the suffering that Jesus underwent; this too can be considered "making light of it".

However, it should always be remembered that Christ's suffering and death was voluntary: thus what was a shameful death for Him was a moment of victory, and the Crucifixion was the prologue for the glorious Resurrection!

 

Amen and Amen!
Ketty

Re: Too small a price.

Shaker wrote:
We don't actually know what the suffering was.


I think we do - it's really pretty obvious that if you have nails hammered through your extremities and are left to hang in scorching heat without shelter and without water, and you have your sides pierced, the suffering must be pretty lengthy and pretty bad.  It doesn't take much imagination to realise it's not a pleasant experience.

It doesn't make His suffering any 'better' by citing others who may have had it worse.  It was still pretty bloody awful and not something I'd want to even contemplate having been experienced by anyone, let alone somebody I love.
Shaker

Re: Too small a price.

Ketty wrote:
I think we do - it's really pretty obvious that if you have nails hammered through your extremities and are left to hang in scorching heat without shelter and without water, and you have your sides pierced, the suffering must be pretty lengthy and pretty bad.

We don't actually know any of those things, though.

We do know, for example, that, pace untold artistic representations for many centuries, it's impossible for a human body to support its own weight when nails are hammered through the palms of the hands. Didn't, can't, won't, wouldn't happen.

Quote:
It doesn't take much imagination to realise it's not a pleasant experience.


Not pleasant? Absolutely. The worst kind of suffering imaginable ever undergone by anybody, anywhere, ever, as it's sometimes made out to be? No.
Ketty

Re: Too small a price.

Shaker wrote:
We do know, for example, that, pace untold artistic representations for many centuries, it's impossible for a human body to support its own weight when nails are hammered through the palms of the hands. Didn't, can't, won't, wouldn't happen.


Apparently it was more likely to be the wrists, but if you think about it, because He was also nailed by his feet/ankles, they would have been taking some of the weight too.  I'm sure there's enough history to tell us how crucifixions were normally carried out.  I'm on my holibobs and it's not something I want to research.

Either way, it doesn't take much to know it must be painful.  Added to that, being in the scorching heat and without water . . .

Shaker wrote:
The worst kind of suffering imaginable ever undergone by anybody, anywhere, ever, as it's sometimes made out to be? No.


I don't disagree, but worse suffering by others doesn't negate His suffering.  It's not really useful to compare horror with worse horror when it's all horror.
Leonard James

Re: Too small a price.

Ketty wrote:

Apparently it was more likely to be the wrists,


In the gospel account of Jesus convincing Thomas it specifically says hands.
Ketty

Re: Too small a price.

Leonard James wrote:
Ketty wrote:

Apparently it was more likely to be the wrists,


In the gospel account of Jesus convincing Thomas it specifically says hands.


Oh well then, that's it proven, crucifixion is a walk in the park and doesn't hurt a bit.  
Jim

Re: Too small a price.

Ketty wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
Ketty wrote:

Apparently it was more likely to be the wrists,


In the gospel account of Jesus convincing Thomas it specifically says hands.


Oh well then, that's it proven, crucifixion is a walk in the park and doesn't hurt a bit.  
 


If it's in the GoT...forget it.
Anyway, with respect, the physical sufferings of the LORD are not the main issue for us.
After all, there are records of victims lasting DAYS on the cross. The Romans were experts at drawing out the agony.
Jesus lasted only three hours.
Three hours of unimaginable agony - not only physical, but spiritual.
The agony of rejection by His own people.
The agony of being the bearer of all that makes us less than the people God wants to be.
And perhaps the most mysterious agony of all, one which we are not equiped to fathom.
Perhaps, for the first, and only time in eternity, Jesus was torn fromthe Godhead in an act of sacrifice.
Yes, He quoted Psalm 22:1 - read the whole psalm, it is moving indeed.
But when He cried "My God, My God, why have YOU abandoned me?" I doubt any of us can even hope to imagine what that cost Him.

Thank You for the Cross, Lord.
Shaker

Re: Too small a price.

Ketty wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
Ketty wrote:

Apparently it was more likely to be the wrists,


In the gospel account of Jesus convincing Thomas it specifically says hands.


Oh well then, that's it proven, crucifixion is a walk in the park and doesn't hurt a bit.  

Now come on, nobody's saying that.

But it is worth trying to correct a few misconceptions. For one thing, a great many people were crucified - Jesus wasn't the only one by a long chalk. Crucifixion was widespread throughout the Roman Empire of the time. (Crucifixion predates the Romans by a long way, come to that).

Following on from that, the way that the suffering of Jesus is painted as the worst suffering ever undergone by anyone, anywhere, at any point in history - the stuff of some old tenth-rate hymns but I've also seen it advanced as a serious discussion point - simply doesn't stack up.

Nobody is saying crucifixion was nice - it wasn't meant to be. The Romans were a notably cruel-to-the-point-of-sadistic lot and their methods of execution were often (not always, but often) explicitly intended to be cruel and unusual punishment. Precisely because they were so cruel, certainly tens and very likely hundreds of thousands of people were crucified across the Empire over a period of hundreds of years, and a great many of them would have suffered just as badly or even more than Jesus is assumed to have done. We know this because we have direct eyewitness accounts of some of these crucifixions, none of that of Jesus. If you're going to depict Jesus's death in literature, painting or film, frankly in large part you're simply going to have to make it up.
Leonard James

Re: Too small a price.

Ketty wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
Ketty wrote:

Apparently it was more likely to be the wrists,


In the gospel account of Jesus convincing Thomas it specifically says hands.


Oh well then, that's it proven, crucifixion is a walk in the park and doesn't hurt a bit.  


Come, come Ketty, petulance doesn't become you!  
Ketty

Re: Too small a price.

Shaker wrote:
Now come on, nobody's saying that.


I know, but hey, it's a MB, we use the ammo people hand us and fire it back.  

Shaker wrote:
But it is worth trying to correct a few misconceptions. For one thing, a great many people were crucified - Jesus wasn't the only one by a long chalk. Crucifixion was widespread throughout the Roman Empire of the time. (Crucifixion predates the Romans by a long way, come to that).

Following on from that, the way that the suffering of Jesus is painted as the worst suffering ever undergone by anyone, anywhere, at any point in history - the stuff of some old tenth-rate hymns but I've also seen it advanced as a serious discussion point - simply doesn't stack up.

Nobody is saying crucifixion was nice - it wasn't meant to be. The Romans were a notably cruel-to-the-point-of-sadistic lot and their methods of execution were often (not always, but often) explicitly intended to be cruel and unusual punishment. Precisely because they were so cruel, certainly tens and very likely hundreds of thousands of people were crucified across the Empire over a period of hundreds of years, and a great many of them would have suffered just as badly or even more than Jesus is assumed to have done. We know this because we have direct eyewitness accounts of some of these crucifixions, none of that of Jesus.


I don't disagree.  But as Jim said the whole picture and the most defining things for Christians is not His dreadfully painful death (although we don't forget it), but the fact he overcame it.  The important thing is the empty Cross rather than the 'little man' still on it.

Shaker wrote:
If you're going to depict Jesus's death in literature, painting or film, frankly in large part you're simply going to have to make it up.


Well, you've only got to look at the stylised 'stuff' that depicts images of Him to see that's what folk like to do.  But that happens throughout history when people are depicted in any way - it's rarely 'photographic' even with or without Photoshop.
JMC

Re: Too small a price.

Jim wrote:
JMC wrote:
Ketty wrote:
His suffering, more than any other (I would say, without research) is made light of by so many.


Yes: knowledge about Christ's suffering (that He was scourged, mocked, spat upon, beaten, then crucified) is widespread. As the "reports" of what Jesus are well-known, the number of people who make light of it is statistically bound to be greater. Some people, of course, doubt that such events ever happened, and you can't make lighter of Jesus' sufferings than that! Even those who do believe cannot intellectually even begin to empathize with what Jesus went through, so there are even more who might tend to make light of what happened. Indeed, there are no doubt a good many Christians who do not seriously consider and meditate upon the suffering that Jesus underwent; this too can be considered "making light of it".

However, it should always be remembered that Christ's suffering and death was voluntary: thus what was a shameful death for Him was a moment of victory, and the Crucifixion was the prologue for the glorious Resurrection!

 

Amen and Amen!


Amen also to your follow up post on the suffering Christ underwent in being rejected by the very people He created.

I would hesitate to going as far as separation from the God-head. The psalm which Jesus quotes is indeed moving, but ends with victory! Paul teaches us that Jesus emptied Himself of all self-will and that is ultimately apparent on the Cross. This is an example to Christians in terms of "how far" we should go in our humility. The belief is that by emptying ourselves of all self-will and being desired to be united with God we are "emptied" but then almost simultaneously filled with the grace of God. Jesus on the cross expressed the feeling of abandonment on the Cross surrounded by mockers, yet by being "emptied" of any self-will Christ was filled with grace. That is why I would hesitate to say Christ was separate from the Father and the Holy Spirit at that point. However, that is a discussion for another time. Today is the day of rest, wait and expectation for the glorious, holy and life-giving resurrection of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.



Wishing you a happy Easter, Jim. (And to everyone else!)
Jim

Re: Too small a price.

JMC wrote:
Jim wrote:
JMC wrote:
Ketty wrote:
His suffering, more than any other (I would say, without research) is made light of by so many.


Yes: knowledge about Christ's suffering (that He was scourged, mocked, spat upon, beaten, then crucified) is widespread. As the "reports" of what Jesus are well-known, the number of people who make light of it is statistically bound to be greater. Some people, of course, doubt that such events ever happened, and you can't make lighter of Jesus' sufferings than that! Even those who do believe cannot intellectually even begin to empathize with what Jesus went through, so there are even more who might tend to make light of what happened. Indeed, there are no doubt a good many Christians who do not seriously consider and meditate upon the suffering that Jesus underwent; this too can be considered "making light of it".

However, it should always be remembered that Christ's suffering and death was voluntary: thus what was a shameful death for Him was a moment of victory, and the Crucifixion was the prologue for the glorious Resurrection!

 

Amen and Amen!


Amen also to your follow up post on the suffering Christ underwent in being rejected by the very people He created.

I would hesitate to going as far as separation from the God-head. The psalm which Jesus quotes is indeed moving, but ends with victory! Paul teaches us that Jesus emptied Himself of all self-will and that is ultimately apparent on the Cross. This is an example to Christians in terms of "how far" we should go in our humility. The belief is that by emptying ourselves of all self-will and being desired to be united with God we are "emptied" but then almost simultaneously filled with the grace of God. Jesus on the cross expressed the feeling of abandonment on the Cross surrounded by mockers, yet by being "emptied" of any self-will Christ was filled with grace. That is why I would hesitate to say Christ was separate from the Father and the Holy Spirit at that point. However, that is a discussion for another time. Today is the day of rest, wait and expectation for the glorious, holy and life-giving resurrection of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.



Wishing you a happy Easter, Jim. (And to everyone else!)


-
I've read umpteen books on the Cross; from Orthodox to evangelicals.
I know the theology...and frankly, the mechanics don't interest me!
I doubt if anyone could ever plumb the depths of everything that was going on on that day. Forces beyond my understanding, certainly, were focused on that one figure on that gallows.
What still thrills, awes and frankly stuns me is that this is the ultimate love-gift of God for me - Himself.

The Cross is enpty today.
Symbolically we wait for the dawn.
We know the story...we've read it, sung it, preached it a thousand times, but it is no less thrilling for that.

Have a blessed Easter.
Leonard James

Re: Too small a price.

Jim wrote:

Have a blessed Easter.


And to those of us who, like me, don't believe the story, I say enjoy the holiday it has given us!
JMC

Re: Too small a price.

Jim wrote:
JMC wrote:
Jim wrote:
JMC wrote:
Ketty wrote:
His suffering, more than any other (I would say, without research) is made light of by so many.


Yes: knowledge about Christ's suffering (that He was scourged, mocked, spat upon, beaten, then crucified) is widespread. As the "reports" of what Jesus are well-known, the number of people who make light of it is statistically bound to be greater. Some people, of course, doubt that such events ever happened, and you can't make lighter of Jesus' sufferings than that! Even those who do believe cannot intellectually even begin to empathize with what Jesus went through, so there are even more who might tend to make light of what happened. Indeed, there are no doubt a good many Christians who do not seriously consider and meditate upon the suffering that Jesus underwent; this too can be considered "making light of it".

However, it should always be remembered that Christ's suffering and death was voluntary: thus what was a shameful death for Him was a moment of victory, and the Crucifixion was the prologue for the glorious Resurrection!

 

Amen and Amen!


Amen also to your follow up post on the suffering Christ underwent in being rejected by the very people He created.

I would hesitate to going as far as separation from the God-head. The psalm which Jesus quotes is indeed moving, but ends with victory! Paul teaches us that Jesus emptied Himself of all self-will and that is ultimately apparent on the Cross. This is an example to Christians in terms of "how far" we should go in our humility. The belief is that by emptying ourselves of all self-will and being desired to be united with God we are "emptied" but then almost simultaneously filled with the grace of God. Jesus on the cross expressed the feeling of abandonment on the Cross surrounded by mockers, yet by being "emptied" of any self-will Christ was filled with grace. That is why I would hesitate to say Christ was separate from the Father and the Holy Spirit at that point. However, that is a discussion for another time. Today is the day of rest, wait and expectation for the glorious, holy and life-giving resurrection of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.



Wishing you a happy Easter, Jim. (And to everyone else!)


-
I've read umpteen books on the Cross; from Orthodox to evangelicals.
I know the theology...and frankly, the mechanics don't interest me!


Reading umpteen theological books will do that to a person!



Quote:
What still thrills, awes and frankly stuns me is that this is the ultimate love-gift of God for me - Himself.

The Cross is enpty today.
Symbolically we wait for the dawn.
We know the story...we've read it, sung it, preached it a thousand times, but it is no less thrilling for that.

Have a blessed Easter.



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