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JamesJah

Which is the correct religion?

What is the correct way to worship the Almighty God?

How do we know what God requires of us?

Are all Gods the same, is there a difference?


Why are there so many opinions?
Shaker

Quote:
What is the correct way to worship the Almighty God?

Who says that there is such a thing in the first place?

Quote:
How do we know what God requires of us?

You don't. All theistic religions make mutually contradictory claims in this regard.

Quote:
Are all Gods the same, is there a difference?


You're overstepping yourself: you need to ascertain what these things are and if they actually exist first before asking such questions, otherwise such questions are merely meaningless noise.

Quote:
Why are there so many opinions?

Because pretty well all religions, almost by definition, make truth claims that they can't back up with evidence. When you toss reason and evidence out of the window you can allege absolutely anything in the safe knowledge that you won't be called upon to demonstrate why your beliefs aren't nonsense: no matter how absurd, you can always play the faith card ("It's my deeply and sincerely held belief, and that's that").

I fail to see why any one religion should be true. The big ones certainly claim, mutually exclusively, to be the only one true and right way, but so what? I call it the "I'm Spartacus" school of theology. Where the analogy breaks down is that there was once an actual, real Spartacus: we've no corresponding certitude about any religion.
Ketty

Re: Which is the correct religion?

Question:
JamesJah wrote:
Which is the correct religion?


Answer:

For God* - none.  Religion is an anathema.
For man - each one will say their religion is correct.
For me - I will take a stand against all those religions who are based on false prophets, and teaching, but yet lead innocents astray by erroneously claiming the label 'christian'.

Christ Jesus* is the Way, the Truth and the Life.



* I AM - the triune Godhead: God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
Jim

1 A faith based on a firm foundation.
(mine is anchored on an immovable Rock.)
2. A faith built on a relationship.
( Mine is built on a personal relationship with the Creator/Saviour.)
3. A faith whose foundations can be traced and confirmed by inspired Scripture.
( Not a faith built by a deluded prophet obsessed with a pagan structure which he believed to be 'Scripture in stone')
Shaker

Can anybody say 'question-begging'?
gone

In my opinion ALL religion, including Christianity, is a wholly human construct. It matters not what you believe as each belief system is as valid or invalid as any other.
LeClerc

Re: Which is the correct religion?

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
What is the correct way to worship the Almighty God?

How do we know what God requires of us?

Are all Gods the same, is there a difference?


Why are there so many opinions?


YHWH teaches us

Jeremiah 25 New World Translation
6And do not walk after other gods in order to serve them and to bow down to them, that YOU may not offend me with the work of YOUR hands, and that I may not cause calamity to YOU.’

Scripture teaches us the following

Mark 1 NWT
17So Jesus said to them: “Come after me, and I shall cause YOU to become fishers of men.”

Romans 14 NWT
18For he who in this regard slaves for Christ is acceptable to God and has approval with men.

John 9 NWT
38Then he said: “I do put faith [in him], Lord.” And he did obeisance to him.

If Y’shua is a God, other than YHWH God, then the commandments of YHWH are being broken by

Y’shua’s disciples
Y’shua himself
The writers of The New Testament.

Since we know this is not true, The Watchtowers teaching on who Y’shua is, a God other than YHWH God, has to be a false teaching, by applying the test of scripture.

LeClerc
JamesJah

Re: Which is the correct religion?

LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
What is the correct way to worship the Almighty God?

How do we know what God requires of us?

Are all Gods the same, is there a difference?


Why are there so many opinions?


YHWH teaches us

Jeremiah 25 New World Translation
6And do not walk after other gods in order to serve them and to bow down to them, that YOU may not offend me with the work of YOUR hands, and that I may not cause calamity to YOU.’

Scripture teaches us the following

Mark 1 NWT
17So Jesus said to them: “Come after me, and I shall cause YOU to become fishers of men.”

Romans 14 NWT
18For he who in this regard slaves for Christ is acceptable to God and has approval with men.

John 9 NWT
38Then he said: “I do put faith [in him], Lord.” And he did obeisance to him.

If Y’shua is a God, other than YHWH God, then the commandments of YHWH are being broken by

Y’shua’s disciples
Y’shua himself
The writers of The New Testament.

Since we know this is not true, The Watchtowers teaching on who Y’shua is, a God other than YHWH God, has to be a false teaching, by applying the test of scripture.

LeClerc


Can you have rank in the trinity?

John 17:4, 5
I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do. So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.
John 17:9, 10
I make request concerning them; I make request, not concerning the world, but concerning those you have given me; because they are yours, and all my things are yours and yours are mine, and I have been glorified among them.

Philippians 2:8-11
More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake. For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.


What was the superior Jesus was raised to?
JamesJah

Quote:

Shaker wrote

Quote:
What is the correct way to worship the Almighty God?

Who says that there is such a thing in the first place?


You say there is when you deny any other god.

God is a title like Lord or Deccan, god is a title given to the highest authority if you deny there is a god, then you must take the title for your self as the highest authority in the matter, then again there may be some who disagree with you, and put themselves in your place, which will mean you are not much cop as a god, then you know that any way.

Well we did even if you did not.
Shaker

JamesJah wrote:
Quote:

Shaker wrote

Quote:
What is the correct way to worship the Almighty God?

Who says that there is such a thing in the first place?


You say there is when you deny any other god.

Erm, are you quite sure about that?

I suppose the concept of denying them all doesn't figure ... ? Atheists do, you know.

Quote:
God is a title like Lord or Deccan

Eh?

Quote:
god is a title given to the highest authority if you deny there is a god, then you must take the title for your self as the highest authority in the matter

That's a non sequitur of gargantuan proportions. Nevertheless, and with that said, I do in fact actually exist so I might as well do the job.

Quote:
then again there may be some who disagree with you, and put themselves in your place, which will mean you are not much cop as a god

The Greeks and Romans seemed to do pretty well with a plethora of rival gods in theor pantheons for rather a long time.
JamesJah

Just like all human gods shaker here today gone tomorrow.

Ever tried writing a book over a period of 3000yrs not something a human can do is it?
gone

JamesJah wrote:
Just like all human gods shaker here today gone tomorrow.

Ever tried writing a book over a period of 3000yrs not something a human can do is it?


And who has written a book over a period of 3000 years?
Shaker

JamesJah wrote:
Just like all human gods shaker here today gone tomorrow.

All of them are human-created and it's a pretty good bet that all of them will die out given enough time. The really sad thing is that when some die out, some people are daft enough to invent others.

Quote:
Ever tried writing a book over a period of 3000yrs not something a human can do is it?

Not one human being. But lots and lots of human beings, generation after generation after generation ... no sweat.
LeClerc

Re: Which is the correct religion?

JamesJah wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
What is the correct way to worship the Almighty God?

How do we know what God requires of us?

Are all Gods the same, is there a difference?


Why are there so many opinions?


YHWH teaches us

Jeremiah 25 New World Translation
6And do not walk after other gods in order to serve them and to bow down to them, that YOU may not offend me with the work of YOUR hands, and that I may not cause calamity to YOU.’

Scripture teaches us the following

Mark 1 NWT
17So Jesus said to them: “Come after me, and I shall cause YOU to become fishers of men.”

Romans 14 NWT
18For he who in this regard slaves for Christ is acceptable to God and has approval with men.

John 9 NWT
38Then he said: “I do put faith [in him], Lord.” And he did obeisance to him.

If Y’shua is a God, other than YHWH God, then the commandments of YHWH are being broken by

Y’shua’s disciples
Y’shua himself
The writers of The New Testament.

Since we know this is not true, The Watchtowers teaching on who Y’shua is, a God other than YHWH God, has to be a false teaching, by applying the test of scripture.

LeClerc


Can you have rank in the trinity?

John 17:4, 5
I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do. So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.
John 17:9, 10
I make request concerning them; I make request, not concerning the world, but concerning those you have given me; because they are yours, and all my things are yours and yours are mine, and I have been glorified among them.

Philippians 2:8-11
More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake. For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.


What was the superior Jesus was raised to?


YHWH is The Word who became flesh. In becoming flesh He humbled Himself. What is difficult to understand here ?

John 17 NWT
11“Also, I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are.12When I was with them I used to watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me

What is the name given to the one praying ?

Why do you not call Him by this name ?

LeClerc
JamesJah

It is amazing what the trinity doctrine does to the sensibilities of the mined LeClerc,

The name Jesus was given he passed onto his followers did he not?
JamesJah

Willow wrote:
JamesJah wrote:
Just like all human gods shaker here today gone tomorrow.

Ever tried writing a book over a period of 3000yrs not something a human can do is it?


And who has written a book over a period of 3000 years?


Exodus 34:27
Jehovah went on to say to Moses: Write down for yourself these words, because it is in accordance with these words that I do conclude a covenant with you and Israel.


Revelation 1:19
Therefore write down the things you saw, and the things that are and the things that will take place after these.
Shaker

Nobody, then.
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
It is amazing what the trinity doctrine does to the sensibilities of the mined LeClerc,

The name Jesus was given he passed onto his followers did he not?


Have I ever mentioned that doctrine James ?

Revelation 22 NWT
and his slaves will render him sacred service;and they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.

LeClerc
JamesJah

Your thinking and your thoughts are expressed by what you write LeClerc.
For example the left hand passing to the right comes to mind, as an example that satisfies you and you possibly hope the answer was clever enough to be persuasive to others, but to me it was nonsense, and just something that kept you from acknowledging what had been quoted to you from scripture.

How many heavenly Fathers are there?
Who are Jesus brothers?
Who is the bridegroom?
What did the sacrifice Abraham was asked to offer portray?
Lexilogio

Re: Which is the correct religion?

JamesJah wrote:
What is the correct way to worship the Almighty God?

How do we know what God requires of us?

Are all Gods the same, is there a difference?


Why are there so many opinions?


There are not "Gods". There is one God.

I find it astonishing that a group which considers themselves Christian should profess to polytheism.
JamesJah

Re: Which is the correct religion?

Lexilogio wrote:
JamesJah wrote:
What is the correct way to worship the Almighty God?

How do we know what God requires of us?

Are all Gods the same, is there a difference?


Why are there so many opinions?


There are not "Gods". There is one God.

I find it astonishing that a group which considers themselves Christian should profess to polytheism.


Was this writer a Christian?

1 Corinthians 8:5, 6
For even though there are those who are called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many gods and many “lords, there is actually to us one God the Father,
The Boyg

Re: Which is the correct religion?

JamesJah wrote:
Was this writer a Christian?

1 Corinthians 8:5, 6
For even though there are those who are called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many gods and many “lords, there is actually to us one God the Father,


Yes. I suggest you read the whole chapter rather than taking one verse and part of another out of context in order to distort the message.
Lexilogio

The writer didn't think there was more than one God - he said that there were many "called gods".  The sentence finishes saying that there is only one God.

If you believe that there are more than one God - then your belief is polytheistic - a belief in more than one god.
JamesJah

Is the Devil a god and do you believe he exists?


2 Corinthians 4:3, 4
If, now, the good news we declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.
Jim

Well, James, you have the wierd mistranslation of John 1:1 in the NWT "...and the word was a god."
You accept Christ as the word, don't you?
You therefore accept Him as a god.
You are, therefore, polytheist as Lexi suggests.
Lexilogio

JamesJah wrote:
Is the Devil a god and do you believe he exists?


2 Corinthians 4:3, 4
If, now, the good news we declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.


No I don't believe the devil is a god. I believe in one God.

As I said, your views are clearly polytheistic.
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:

How many heavenly Fathers are there?


Lets address this one first James.

How many Eternal Fathers are there ?

LeClerc
JamesJah

Fathers of what?  
JamesJah

Do Trinitarians know the meaning of the word god come to that do Muslims?
Jim

Do WTBS adherants know the meaning of the word "answer" when it comes to points?
JamesJah

Jim if you wanted a WT answer you would read it so please excuse me for not giving you something you do not want.
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
Fathers of what?  


You have posted here http://nglreturns.myfreeforum.org/viewtopic.php?p=77935#77935

JamesJah wrote:
Looks like we have to recognise two gods here one mighty and one almighty if we do not appreciate the shed blood of one the other will not know you also, so the Muslims do have a problem when it comes to redemption do they not, the same as the Trinitarians.?

John 14:6
Jesus said to him: I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.


Are we now advocating polytheism James, ie the walking after, the serving and the bowing down to more than one God ?

Quote from Watchtower publication
In Jesus, Jehovah has provided an “Eternal Father” for those who hope to live forever on earth. Jesus is a replacement for the human father, Adam, who failed all his offspring so miserably. (Isaiah 9:6, 7) By accepting Jesus as our “Eternal Father,” exercising faith in him, we have a sure hope of everlasting life.

Romans 1 New World Translation
20For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable

Was YHWH once destitute of power ?

Answer no.

Therefore, from your own publication quoted above, The Word who became flesh has always existed.

LeClerc
JamesJah

Who was first of Jehovah's creation?  
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
Who was first of Jehovah's creation?  


Can you please define ''creation''.

One can create a table out of wood, the wood already existing once as a tree.

Do you mean creation, in the sense of, out of that which once did not exist ?

or

Do you mean creation, in the sense of, out of that which already exists ?

LeClerc
JamesJah

Very technical Leclerc science is still wondering how to pit an atom together; they have a rough idea how to take one apart.

Just recently the evolutionist has discovered you can not make something out of nothing, so something had to have always existed, now that is what the bible teaches, in the beginning God, created the heavens and the earth.

By what and how, the bible also shows, by means of his dynamic energy, he being vigorous in power.

Isaiah 40:26
Raise your eyes high up and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who is bringing forth the army of them even by number, all of whom he calls even by name. Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power, not one [of them] is missing.


If you wish to over step what the bible teaches with some technical jargon, you do not need an answer from me, because I only am aware of what  Jehovah does by what is in the scripture, I am not smarter than the creator now am I wiser than his son who revealed him to us.
Shaker

JamesJah wrote:
Very technical Leclerc science is still wondering how to pit an atom together; they have a rough idea how to take one apart.

Your knowledge (I use the word loosely) of physics seems to be out of date by some decades at least.

Quote:
Just recently the evolutionist has discovered you can not make something out of nothing, so something had to have always existed


This refers to what specifically?
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
Very technical Leclerc science is still wondering how to pit an atom together; they have a rough idea how to take one apart.

Just recently the evolutionist has discovered you can not make something out of nothing, so something had to have always existed, now that is what the bible teaches, in the beginning God, created the heavens and the earth.

By what and how, the bible also shows, by means of his dynamic energy, he being vigorous in power.

Isaiah 40:26
Raise your eyes high up and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who is bringing forth the army of them even by number, all of whom he calls even by name. Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power, not one [of them] is missing.


If you wish to over step what the bible teaches with some technical jargon, you do not need an answer from me, because I only am aware of what  Jehovah does by what is in the scripture, I am not smarter than the creator now am I wiser than his son who revealed him to us.


Not overstepping scripture James just confirming what the scriptures teach.

When you raise your eyes high up and see what are you looking at James what do you see with your eyes ?

Also James

Isaiah 43 NWT
10 YOU​ are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that ​YOU​ may know and have faith in me, and that ​YOU​ may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none.

LeClerc
JamesJah

Correct
LeClerc

Hi James

Returning to your earlier question.

JamesJah wrote:
Who was first of Jehovah's creation?  


When YHWH, who is The Spirit,

[2 Corinthians 3 NWT
17Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom.18And all of us, while we with unveiled faces reflect like mirrors the glory of Jehovah, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, exactly as done by Jehovah [the] Spirit.]

released His Logos from His bosom, He brought forth His very own Logos in what seemed like an act of creation but was not. It was a mere transference of the abiding engrafted Logos from an internal to an external setting. Once released from the bosom, it unleashed its inbred creative powers and created all things. Colossians 1:16 confirms this unleashing of the energy of His spoken Logos and all things became subject to His Logos, which was the Father’s first manifestation of His self-contained glory. Once that glory had been brought forth out of its containment, all things that His Logos created, became His Logos property and through Him the Father’s property. That is why Y’shua said many times all that the Father has is mine and all I have is His.

LeClerc
JamesJah

Quite a few clergy LeClerc make it up as they go along, but JW's try to stick to just what the scriptures tell us we have found that much more reliable.
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:
Quite a few clergy LeClerc make it up as they go along, but JW's try to stick to just what the scriptures tell us we have found that much more reliable.


Make things up as they go along?, discard them when they are proved to be untrue and invent more when they receive new light?

You don't do irony then James?

Pot,Kettle,Black?

Honey
JamesJah

One of the reasons the Seventh Day evangelists came to be so unpopular, was because most Christians have come to like the cosy life and have no wish to move forwards into the new era.
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
Quite a few clergy LeClerc make it up as they go along, but JW's try to stick to just what the scriptures tell us we have found that much more reliable.


Quote from Watchtower publication
In Jesus, Jehovah has provided an “Eternal Father” for those who hope to live forever on earth. Jesus is a replacement for the human father, Adam, who failed all his offspring so miserably. (Isaiah 9:6, 7) By accepting Jesus as our “Eternal Father,” exercising faith in him, we have a sure hope of everlasting life.

Romans 1 New World Translation
20For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable

Was YHWH once destitute of power ?

Answer no.

Therefore, from your own publication quoted above, The Word who became flesh has always existed.

LeClerc
JamesJah

Not according to scripture.
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
Not according to scripture.


According to scripture did The Logos come forth from YHWH or come forth from creation ?

Since nothing existed before creation, only YHWH, then from your teaching the Logos was not the first act of creation, but the creation of that out of which The Logos came was the first act of creation. The Logos according to your teaching therefore being the second act of creation which is NOT what scripture teaches.

LeClerc
JamesJah

LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
Not according to scripture.


According to scripture did The Logos come forth from YHWH or come forth from creation ?

Since nothing existed before creation, only YHWH, then from your teaching the Logos was not the first act of creation, but the creation of that out of which The Logos came was the first act of creation. The Logos according to your teaching therefore being the second act of creation which is NOT what scripture teaches.

LeClerc


Where does it say that in scripture?
Jim

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:1 NIV.
(A reputable translation with verifiable translators.)
JamesJah

Jim wrote:
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:1 NIV.
(A reputable translation with verifiable translators.)


It does not say the word was the God now does it?
Jim

Correct, James!
It does not say the Word was the god.
It does not say the Word was a God.
It says the Word was God.

There is only One God, James.
Haven't you read the shema?
JamesJah

It has to say the God or it has to be an indefinite god and not the God, it has to be defined in the Greek language, because there is no definite article.
Jim

Is that what you've been told, James?
By the anonymous unacredited mistranslators of your bible?
I'm afraid I had other advice there ; from a GREEK professor of N.T. Greek at Glasgow University.
Note; I put GREEK in capitals because the gentleman, still alive and active in the faith, was born and raised in Greece.
I think he should know how to translate his own language into English, don't you?

Oh, and in case you're wondering, he had a degree in linguistics gained at Oxford University, where he also studied Anglo-Saxon and medieval English.
He is an Archbishop of the Greek Orthodox Church now....in Greece.
JamesJah

Jim wrote:
Is that what you've been told, James?
By the anonymous unacredited mistranslators of your bible?
I'm afraid I had other advice there ; from a GREEK professor of N.T. Greek at Glasgow University.
Note; I put GREEK in capitals because the gentleman, still alive and active in the faith, was born and raised in Greece.
I think he should know how to translate his own language into English, don't you?

Oh, and in case you're wondering, he had a degree in linguistics gained at Oxford University, where he also studied Anglo-Saxon and medieval English.
He is an Archbishop of the Greek Orthodox Church now....in Greece.



So he agrees with me glad you have some one who can talk some sense to you.
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
Not according to scripture.


According to scripture did The Logos come forth from YHWH or come forth from creation ?

Since nothing existed before creation, only YHWH, then from your teaching the Logos was not the first act of creation, but the creation of that out of which The Logos came was the first act of creation. The Logos according to your teaching therefore being the second act of creation which is NOT what scripture teaches.

LeClerc


Where does it say that in scripture?


Lets begin with

John 16
27  αὐτὸς γὰρ ὁ πατὴρ φιλεῖ ὑμᾶς ὅτι ὑμεῖς ἐμὲ πεφιλήκατε καὶ πεπιστεύκατε ὅτι ἐγὼ παρὰ τοῦ θεοῦ ἐξῆλθον
28 ἐξῆλθον παρὰ τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ ἐλήλυθα εἰς τὸν κόσμον πάλιν ἀφίημι τὸν κόσμον καὶ πορεύομαι πρὸς τὸν πατέρα

The above is confirmed by John 1 NWT
18No man has seen God at any time; the only‐begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

I have left John 16 verses 27 and 28 in Greek for a specific reason.

You have the scripture James as requested.

LeClerc
Jim

No, James;
One of the prof's favourite sayings was "And the Word was God. I'll stake my life on it. I already have.".

Would you serioussly argue with a Greek speaking Greek?
JamesJah

Was god inperfect tens no [THE] in front.
JamesJah

LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
Not according to scripture.


According to scripture did The Logos come forth from YHWH or come forth from creation ?

Since nothing existed before creation, only YHWH, then from your teaching the Logos was not the first act of creation, but the creation of that out of which The Logos came was the first act of creation. The Logos according to your teaching therefore being the second act of creation which is NOT what scripture teaches.

LeClerc


Where does it say that in scripture?


Lets begin with

John 16
27  αὐτὸς γὰρ ὁ πατὴρ φιλεῖ ὑμᾶς ὅτι ὑμεῖς ἐμὲ πεφιλήκατε καὶ πεπιστεύκατε ὅτι ἐγὼ παρὰ τοῦ θεοῦ ἐξῆλθον
28 ἐξῆλθον παρὰ τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ ἐλήλυθα εἰς τὸν κόσμον πάλιν ἀφίημι τὸν κόσμον καὶ πορεύομαι πρὸς τὸν πατέρα

The above is confirmed by John 1 NWT
18No man has seen God at any time; the only‐begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

I have left John 16 verses 27 and 28 in Greek for a specific reason.

You have the scripture James as requested.

LeClerc


I still find it difficult to see how an intelligent person can see anything different in the scripture you mention other than what it has to say.

What sort of problem do you have with the fact that Jsesus came as his Father Representative, a or the Representative, is terminology simple even for a child to understand we would not get them mixed up in any way, or can you?
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:
Was god inperfect tens no [THE] in front.


James,
Take a look at John 1:18. the first God (theon) does not have the definite article either, but the second theos is followed by the difinite article (the one).

Honey
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
Not according to scripture.


According to scripture did The Logos come forth from YHWH or come forth from creation ?

Since nothing existed before creation, only YHWH, then from your teaching the Logos was not the first act of creation, but the creation of that out of which The Logos came was the first act of creation. The Logos according to your teaching therefore being the second act of creation which is NOT what scripture teaches.

LeClerc


Where does it say that in scripture?


Lets begin with

John 16
27  αὐτὸς γὰρ ὁ πατὴρ φιλεῖ ὑμᾶς ὅτι ὑμεῖς ἐμὲ πεφιλήκατε καὶ πεπιστεύκατε ὅτι ἐγὼ παρὰ τοῦ θεοῦ ἐξῆλθον
28 ἐξῆλθον παρὰ τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ ἐλήλυθα εἰς τὸν κόσμον πάλιν ἀφίημι τὸν κόσμον καὶ πορεύομαι πρὸς τὸν πατέρα

The above is confirmed by John 1 NWT
18No man has seen God at any time; the only‐begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

I have left John 16 verses 27 and 28 in Greek for a specific reason.

You have the scripture James as requested.

LeClerc


I still find it difficult to see how an intelligent person can see anything different in the scripture you mention other than what it has to say.

What sort of problem do you have with the fact that Jsesus came as his Father Representative, a or the Representative, is terminology simple even for a child to understand we would not get them mixed up in any way, or can you?


John 16
27  αὐτὸς γὰρ ὁ πατὴρ φιλεῖ ὑμᾶς ὅτι ὑμεῖς ἐμὲ πεφιλήκατε καὶ πεπιστεύκατε ὅτι ἐγὼ παρὰ τοῦ θεοῦ ἐξῆλθον
28 ἐξῆλθον παρὰ τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ ἐλήλυθα εἰς τὸν κόσμον πάλιν ἀφίημι τὸν κόσμον καὶ πορεύομαι πρὸς τὸν πατέρα

In the above passages, which Greek word are you translating as representative ?

LeClerc
JamesJah

Honey 56 wrote:
JamesJah wrote:
Was god inperfect tens no [THE] in front.


James,
Take a look at John 1:18. the first God (theon) does not have the definite article either, but the second theos is followed by the difinite article (the one).

Honey


Only begotten God sounds about right to me.

Who begat him?
JamesJah

LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
Not according to scripture.


According to scripture did The Logos come forth from YHWH or come forth from creation ?

Since nothing existed before creation, only YHWH, then from your teaching the Logos was not the first act of creation, but the creation of that out of which The Logos came was the first act of creation. The Logos according to your teaching therefore being the second act of creation which is NOT what scripture teaches.

LeClerc


Where does it say that in scripture?


Lets begin with

John 16
27  αὐτὸς γὰρ ὁ πατὴρ φιλεῖ ὑμᾶς ὅτι ὑμεῖς ἐμὲ πεφιλήκατε καὶ πεπιστεύκατε ὅτι ἐγὼ παρὰ τοῦ θεοῦ ἐξῆλθον
28 ἐξῆλθον παρὰ τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ ἐλήλυθα εἰς τὸν κόσμον πάλιν ἀφίημι τὸν κόσμον καὶ πορεύομαι πρὸς τὸν πατέρα

The above is confirmed by John 1 NWT
18No man has seen God at any time; the only‐begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

I have left John 16 verses 27 and 28 in Greek for a specific reason.

You have the scripture James as requested.

LeClerc


I still find it difficult to see how an intelligent person can see anything different in the scripture you mention other than what it has to say.

What sort of problem do you have with the fact that Jsesus came as his Father Representative, a or the Representative, is terminology simple even for a child to understand we would not get them mixed up in any way, or can you?


John 16
27  αὐτὸς γὰρ ὁ πατὴρ φιλεῖ ὑμᾶς ὅτι ὑμεῖς ἐμὲ πεφιλήκατε καὶ πεπιστεύκατε ὅτι ἐγὼ παρὰ τοῦ θεοῦ ἐξῆλθον
28 ἐξῆλθον παρὰ τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ ἐλήλυθα εἰς τὸν κόσμον πάλιν ἀφίημι τὸν κόσμον καὶ πορεύομαι πρὸς τὸν πατέρα

In the above passages, which Greek word are you translating as representative ?

LeClerc


Only Trinitarians have a problem with Greek terminology here .
Honey 56

[quote="JamesJah:78391"][quote="Honey 56:78383"]
JamesJah wrote:
]

Only begotten God sounds about right to me.

Who begat him?


Yes James

Only begotten, unique, one off, the only, which obviously means that He is not an angel like satan doesn't it?

What do you understand by the term begotten?

Honey
JamesJah

Jesus is not a messenger of the gods just in the same way Satan is not, but Jesus has his messengers the same as Satan has, what was Jesus before he came to earth he did say? What is he now that he has returned to heaven?

Is it possible to give to the almighty God something that he does not have?

Is it possible to give to Jesus something he did not have?

[a reminder of the trinity doctrine]

That is the Father the son and the Holy Spirit are equal in power substance and glory.
Any one of these things missing there is no trinity.
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
Not according to scripture.


According to scripture did The Logos come forth from YHWH or come forth from creation ?

Since nothing existed before creation, only YHWH, then from your teaching the Logos was not the first act of creation, but the creation of that out of which The Logos came was the first act of creation. The Logos according to your teaching therefore being the second act of creation which is NOT what scripture teaches.

LeClerc


Where does it say that in scripture?


Lets begin with

John 16
27  αὐτὸς γὰρ ὁ πατὴρ φιλεῖ ὑμᾶς ὅτι ὑμεῖς ἐμὲ πεφιλήκατε καὶ πεπιστεύκατε ὅτι ἐγὼ παρὰ τοῦ θεοῦ ἐξῆλθον
28 ἐξῆλθον παρὰ τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ ἐλήλυθα εἰς τὸν κόσμον πάλιν ἀφίημι τὸν κόσμον καὶ πορεύομαι πρὸς τὸν πατέρα

The above is confirmed by John 1 NWT
18No man has seen God at any time; the only‐begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

I have left John 16 verses 27 and 28 in Greek for a specific reason.

You have the scripture James as requested.

LeClerc


I still find it difficult to see how an intelligent person can see anything different in the scripture you mention other than what it has to say.

What sort of problem do you have with the fact that Jsesus came as his Father Representative, a or the Representative, is terminology simple even for a child to understand we would not get them mixed up in any way, or can you?


John 16
27  αὐτὸς γὰρ ὁ πατὴρ φιλεῖ ὑμᾶς ὅτι ὑμεῖς ἐμὲ πεφιλήκατε καὶ πεπιστεύκατε ὅτι ἐγὼ παρὰ τοῦ θεοῦ ἐξῆλθον
28 ἐξῆλθον παρὰ τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ ἐλήλυθα εἰς τὸν κόσμον πάλιν ἀφίημι τὸν κόσμον καὶ πορεύομαι πρὸς τὸν πατέρα

In the above passages, which Greek word are you translating as representative ?

LeClerc


Only Trinitarians have a problem with Greek terminology here .


There's that word again which I have never mentioned.

There is no Greek word you can translate as representative is there James, because its not there in the Greek, is it James ?

The NWT have inserted it and not even put brackets around it.

Now James who did the Logos come forth from, YHWH or creation?

LeClerc
JamesJah

Still trying to bring confusion into the world, God is not the God of confusion but of peace.

So the correct religion is the one that is not confused but has peace.

It must be just as difficult today as it was in Jesus day to recognise the messiah when all they could see was a man.


Matthew 25 when did we see you?
Lexilogio

The word you are looking for, James, is αντιπρόσωπος.

I don't believe it is in the passage.
JamesJah

As far as I know B.F. Westcott and F. J. A. Hort translated the interlinear translation in 1875, I just find it handy some times, then I never had a problem trying to prove some thing that is not provable. You see where I come from we have no problem with Jesus being the Word, Then we all know Jesus gets his word from his father, so we can be informed as to what that word is.
One might ask why did it take Christians 300 yrs to discover that almighty God is a trinity.
Why some are so adamant that Christians are not Christians unless they swallow that doctrine along with some hell fire thrown in, when in fact the reverse is true.

The end of this system has arrived and each one is to be judged by their actions to Christ brothers, now if they [Christ’s brothers] say there is no trinity they should know better than most.
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:
As far as I know B.F. Westcott and F. J. A. Hort translated the interlinear translation in 1875, I just find it handy some times, then I never had a problem trying to prove some thing that is not provable.


Then you should have no problem posting the B.F. Westcott and F. J. A. Hort Greek text of John 16 verses 27 and 28, pointing to the Greek word which the NWT has translated as representative.


JamesJah wrote:
You see where I come from we have no problem with Jesus being the Word,


Then you should have no problem answering the question.

Was YHWH once destitute of His Word ?

LeClerc
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:
.

The end of this system has arrived and each one is to be judged by their actions to Christ brothers, now if they [Christ’s brothers] say there is no trinity they should know better than most.


THEY should, you are correct, if they are indeed Christ's brothers, but the false prophesy rules that right out I'm afraid James.  As does the Godhead and all the rest of the biblical teaching the WT Society rides roughshod over.

A shame that such sincere people are so terribly mislead! an ever greater shame when they disregard the truth when it is shown to them time and again.

Honey
Ketty

Honey 56 wrote:


A shame that such sincere people are so terribly mislead! an ever greater shame when they disregard the truth when it is shown to them time and again.




Ain't that the truth!  I would be good if Ralphie is reading all of this.
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:
Honey 56 wrote:
JamesJah wrote:
Was god inperfect tens no [THE] in front.


James,
Take a look at John 1:18. the first God (theon) does not have the definite article either, but the second theos is followed by the difinite article (the one).

Honey


Only begotten God sounds about right to me.

Who begat him?



CS Lewis, explained it very well...
To  create or make something  and to beget something  are not the same things.
According to the bible animals beget other animals, human beings beget other human beings and so God begets God, each to their own kind and substance.


Only God creates.

ktizó: to build, create
Original Word: κτίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: ktizó
Phonetic Spelling: (ktid'-zo)
Short Definition: I create, form, shape, make
Definition: I create, form, shape, make, always of God.



gennaó: to beget, to bring forth
Original Word: γεννάω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: gennaó
Phonetic Spelling: (ghen-nah'-o)
Short Definition: I beget, bring forth, give birth to


As you quite rightly said James, Jesus is the only begotten of God. He is unique, a one off.

Honey
gone

Humans begat ALL gods, imo.
Jim

Er....
You DO have evidence to substantiate your opinion, don't you, Willow?
Ketty

In one sense Willow is right.  Some humans do make their own gods - whether it's materialism, or football teams, or celebrity . . .
Honey 56

Ketty wrote:
Honey 56 wrote:


A shame that such sincere people are so terribly mislead! an ever greater shame when they disregard the truth when it is shown to them time and again.




Ain't that the truth!  I would be good if Ralphie is reading all of this.

It would be even better if he were here posting with us, I really miss Ralph.

Honey
Ketty

Honey 56 wrote:

It would be even better if he were here posting with us


True, but one hopes he reads.
JamesJah

Yes Honey, defiantly a one off now there is one Almighty and the one off.

Where did the idea of the cross come from?

Did a Christian introduce it to the church?
Shaker

Ketty wrote:
In one sense Willow is right.  Some humans do make their own gods - whether it's materialism, or football teams, or celebrity . . .

Willow's point was that all gods are man-made - which is not equivalent to saying that all humans make gods. To regard materialism, football teams and celebrity as 'gods' is to so devalue the word as to render it devoid of whatever meagre meaning it's supposed to have in the first place. I know why some religionists do this: they're trying to make it seem as though their unevidenced and very often undefined irrational beliefs have some kind of parity with non-religious pursuits. It doesn't wash, though. Football teams, celebrities and materialism (I assume this means the pursuit of material goods rather than the philosophical doctrine) make no outrageous, science-denying, evidence-free claims about the nature of reality.
Ketty

Honey 56 wrote:
I really miss Ralph.


You can find him on that itzbelieve forum.  He's a Mod there.  
Ketty

Shaker wrote:

Willow's point was that all gods are man-made - . . .


In that case I don't agree.  Not ALL, but yes, I concede that many are.
Honey 56

JamesJah wrote:
Yes Honey, defiantly a one off now there is one Almighty and the one off.

Where did the idea of the cross come from?

Did a Christian introduce it to the church?


What a strange question James,
The cross was the preferred method of Crucifixion used by the Romans around the first century AD., it is the method they used to kill the Son of God, but they couldn't defeat The Lord Jesus, He rose again victoriously and defeated sin and death.

So in answer to your question, it was not introduced to any church by anyone, it is a matter of fact.

while we are asking questions James...

What did Jesus mean when he said that anyone believing in him would never die?

And how do you equate Jesus teaching with this one...

Quote:

any one who teaches we do not die does follow Satan's teachings  


From the Watchower society?

Honey
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:

Only begotten God sounds about right to me.


So you have two Gods James.

What does YHWH command James ?

Jeremiah 25 NWT
6And do not walk after other gods in order to serve them and to bow down to them, that ​YOU​ may not offend me with the work of ​YOUR​ hands, and that I may not cause calamity to ​YOU.’


JamesJah wrote:
As far as I know B.F. Westcott and F. J. A. Hort translated the interlinear translation in 1875, I just find it handy some times, then I never had a problem trying to prove some thing that is not provable.


Then you should have no problem posting the B.F. Westcott and F. J. A. Hort Greek text of John 16 verses 27 and 28, pointing to the Greek word which the NWT has translated as representative.


JamesJah wrote:
You see where I come from we have no problem with Jesus being the Word,


Then you should have no problem answering the question.

Was YHWH once destitute of His Word ?

LeClerc
Shaker

Ketty wrote:
Shaker wrote:

Willow's point was that all gods are man-made - . . .


In that case I don't agree.  Not ALL, but yes, I concede that many are.

Which is/are the exception(s) and why is it/are they an exception according to you?
Ketty

Shaker wrote:

Which is/are the exception(s) and why is it/are they an exception according to you?


You know already Shaker     The one true God is the Lord God Almighty* as recorded in the Bible and as revealed to men's hearts through the work of the Holy Spirit*.  

* I AM - the triune Godhead: God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

Others may say that David Beckham is a god, but although he's rather delicious, I cannot agree - just as others who worship money, or power, or control, or their life-controlling habits, are free to disagree with me.
gone

The deity portrayed in the Bible is so crazy and fantastical it can't be anything other than a product of the human imagination, imo.
JamesJah

Honey 56 wrote:
JamesJah wrote:
Yes Honey, defiantly a one off now there is one Almighty and the one off.

Where did the idea of the cross come from?

Did a Christian introduce it to the church?


What a strange question James,
The cross was the preferred method of Crucifixion used by the Romans around the first century AD., it is the method they used to kill the Son of God, but they couldn't defeat The Lord Jesus, He rose again victoriously and defeated sin and death.

So in answer to your question, it was not introduced to any church by anyone, it is a matter of fact.

while we are asking questions James...

What did Jesus mean when he said that anyone believing in him would never die?

And how do you equate Jesus teaching with this one...

Quote:

any one who teaches we do not die does follow Satan's teachings  


From the Watchower society?

Honey



Was Constantine a Christian? No never was but introduced the cross as a sign to go to battle with.

Is going to battle and killing people the way the truth and the life?

Can anyone call hi, self a Christian if he insists on abusing his fellow man?


By the way Honey when will true Christians never die?

Now this is what Christians got their cross mixed up with 'X'for Xristos
Jim

I think you'll find very strong archeological and epigraphical dating to at least fifty years before Constantine showing the Cross as a Christian symbol, James - in cluding three examoples of crosses drawn by non Christians - one of them as an insult to Christians.
You wil also find epistological examles from both Christian apologists writing in Latin as well as Greek mentioning the Cross, as well as a few examples of pagan mentions of the same instrument...all before Constantine's so-called -conversion.
Shaker

Ketty wrote:
Shaker wrote:

Which is/are the exception(s) and why is it/are they an exception according to you?


You know already Shaker  


Do I?

Quote:
The one true God is the Lord God Almighty* as recorded in the Bible and as revealed to men's hearts through the work of the Holy Spirit*.  

* I AM - the triune Godhead: God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.


Oh I see. You meant "I already know that what you're going to say in response to my question will be flat assertion without a scrap of evidence, reason or logic offered in its support."
JamesJah

Jim wrote:
I think you'll find very strong archeological and epigraphical dating to at least fifty years before Constantine showing the Cross as a Christian symbol, James - in cluding three examoples of crosses drawn by non Christians - one of them as an insult to Christians.
You wil also find epistological examles from both Christian apologists writing in Latin as well as Greek mentioning the Cross, as well as a few examples of pagan mentions of the same instrument...all before Constantine's so-called -conversion.


As I have mentioned before, there is a slight difference in the cross from the Tau used today and the CH used by the pope on the front of his shirt. Where he has the ‘X’ for Christos and the ’P’ for petros they have even managed to distort the meaning of these have they not  

Any Egyptologist will know who worshipped the god Tamaz seem every one can not keep away from Egypt can they Jim?
Jim

Tamaz?
As I have also posted, both to you and your fellow WTBS group members, Tamaz was never a classic Egyptian deity...for a start, there was no sound for 'z' in Heiroglyphs.
And if you are going to bring up some tripe about the 'ankh' as a cross type symbol, for get it!
Again, as posted, that particular heiroglyph - and that is all it ever was - is simply a stylised form of a sandal-strap in inscription or sculpture.
It simply means 'life' - probably because the sandal gave protection from the snakes which infested the Nile Delta in Dyn '0', which is when the symbol first appears.
It was never worshipped.
Now, stop procrastinating and throwing diversions which don't work into the mix to change topic.
If you wish to discuss the many strands of Egyptian theology/theocracy, open a thread on it.
JamesJah

O dear it was me that was thinking you loved to use anything to do with pyramid in theology. Where do you find this in Egyptian religion? ++++++
Jim

Open another thread on the subject and I'll discuss it.
Meanwhile, stop diverting the thread - it won't work.
JamesJah

Just as you have judged you will be judged said Jesus, did he not?

Revelation 22:14, 15
Happy are those who wash their robes, that the authority [to go] to the trees of life may be theirs and that they may gain entrance into the city by its gates. Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone liking and carrying on a lie.’
Jim

....which still doesn't answer Honey's question.
LeClerc

Hi James

JamesJah wrote:

Only begotten God sounds about right to me.


So you have two Gods James.

What does YHWH command James ?

Jeremiah 25 NWT
6And do not walk after other gods in order to serve them and to bow down to them.’


JamesJah wrote:
As far as I know B.F. Westcott and F. J. A. Hort translated the interlinear translation in 1875, I just find it handy some times, then I never had a problem trying to prove some thing that is not provable.


Then you should have no problem posting the B.F. Westcott and F. J. A. Hort Greek text of John 16 verses 27 and 28, pointing to the Greek word which the NWT has translated as representative.


JamesJah wrote:
You see where I come from we have no problem with Jesus being the Word,


Then you should have no problem answering the question.

Was YHWH once destitute of His Word ?

LeClerc
Shaker

OK, so you lot have had several thousand years of recorded history at least, not to mention pre-recorded history. Any consensus in which one of the thousands on offer is the correct religion yet?

No?

If not, perhaps you can consider keeping your barmy beliefs and in-house hair-splittings to yourselves. There are still some rational people in the world and we have a planet to run.
Honey 56

Quote:
Quote:
Shaker wrote:
OK, so you lot have had several thousand years of recorded history at least, not to mention pre-recorded history. Any consensus in which one of the thousands on offer is the correct religion yet?

No?


Yes we most certainly have, (faith not religion) with the exception of a few mislead cults, whom we are working on continuously, just in case it has escaped your notice.

Quote:
If not, perhaps you can consider keeping your barmy beliefs and in-house hair-splittings to yourselves. There are still some rational people in the world and we have a planet to run.



Really, you actually think the people in charge of running this planet at the moment are rational? well they are making a c--p job of it! perhaps it's time for a change of leadership.
JamesJah

LeClerc wrote:
Hi James

JamesJah wrote:

Only begotten God sounds about right to me.


So you have two Gods James.

What does YHWH command James ?

Jeremiah 25 NWT
6And do not walk after other gods in order to serve them and to bow down to them.’


JamesJah wrote:
As far as I know B.F. Westcott and F. J. A. Hort translated the interlinear translation in 1875, I just find it handy some times, then I never had a problem trying to prove some thing that is not provable.


Then you should have no problem posting the B.F. Westcott and F. J. A. Hort Greek text of John 16 verses 27 and 28, pointing to the Greek word which the NWT has translated as representative.


JamesJah wrote:
You see where I come from we have no problem with Jesus being the Word,


Then you should have no problem answering the question.

Was YHWH once destitute of His Word ?

LeClerc


I GIVE YOU MY WORD pass it on mr trinity.
Shaker

Honey 56 wrote:
Yes we most certainly have, (faith not religion) with the exception of a few mislead cults, whom we are working on continuously, just in case it has escaped your notice.

Yes, it has escaped my notice that anybody has decided that one religion is the correct one outside of individual subjective personal preference (the thread title refers to religion, not faith, so stick to the subject at hand).

Quote:
Really, you actually think the people in charge of running this planet at the moment are rational?


A great many of them are. Some of them are afflicted with religious delusions, sadly.

Quote:
well they are making a c--p job of it! perhaps it's time for a change of leadership.

I can't argue that some of the people in charge of running the planet need changing - the lunatic, religiously deluded ones like Ahmedinejad et hoc genus omnes. We need people who are more intelligent, more rational who can face the problems of the world head-on with careful rational thought, experience and intelligence, not ones subject to mind-sapping nonsense such as religious belief.
Honey 56

Shaker wrote:
Honey 56 wrote:
Yes we most certainly have, (faith not religion) with the exception of a few mislead cults, whom we are working on continuously, just in case it has escaped your notice.

Yes, it has escaped my notice that anybody has decided that one religion is the correct one outside of individual subjective personal preference (the thread title refers to religion, not faith, so stick to the subject at hand).

Quote:
Really, you actually think the people in charge of running this planet at the moment are rational?


A great many of them are. Some of them are afflicted with religious delusions, sadly.

Quote:
well they are making a c--p job of it! perhaps it's time for a change of leadership.

I can't argue that some of the people in charge of running the planet need changing - the lunatic, religiously deluded ones like Ahmedinejad et hoc genus omnes. We need people who are more intelligent, more rational who can face the problems of the world head-on with careful rational thought, experience and intelligence, not ones subject to mind-sapping nonsense such as religious belief.


And Godless societies have a proven track record of what exactly?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism
Shaker

Honey 56 wrote:

And Godless societies have a proven track record of what exactly?

Better records on human rights and civil liberties, a welfare state based on cradle-to-grave care and consideration for all including the elderly and/or poor and/or sick, lower infant mortality, higher literacy and life expectancy ... the list goes on. All the usual stuff, basically, that makes life better than under some theocractic moron.

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