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Boss Cat

Would it matter?

This question is based on a true story, some details changed.

I am assuming you are an atheist, perhaps anti theist. Suppose some of your friends would share that to some extent.  Now suppose one of these friends died as a result of a rather unconventional lifestyle.  Perhaps they were smuggling class A drugs into the country and the condom burst in their stomach (it happens).

Now in the instance I know of the family were Christian and they had a full requiem mass.  How would you feel about that? I mean would you be indignant that the family had arranged something that did not reflect the person you knew and maybe ignored the person you knew?
trentvoyager

Re: Would it matter?

Boss Cat wrote:
This question is based on a true story, some details changed.

I am assuming you are an atheist, perhaps anti theist. Suppose some of your friends would share that to some extent.  Now suppose one of these friends died as a result of a rather unconventional lifestyle.  Perhaps they were smuggling class A drugs into the country and the condom burst in their stomach (it happens).

Now in the instance I know of the family were Christian and they had a full requiem mass.  How would you feel about that? I mean would you be indignant that the family had arranged something that did not reflect the person you knew and maybe ignored the person you knew?



I would go along and celebrate my friends life as best I could - I think.

I recently had a similar situation where a friend of ours died - he was gay, but married. We (my partner and I) went to the funeral (also a requiem mass - he was religious) where no mention of his "other life" was made - but I just took the line that we were all there to remember the person and does it matter that one member of the congregations perception of that person differs from anothers. I would argue not - I was there to give thanks for my friends life and the joy he brought into our lives - he was a very humorous person - where I gave those thanks and remembered him was quite frankly immaterial - as is the fact that a "truer" picture of the person was not given at the service.
Jim

Re: Would it matter?

I'm Christian, but I have experience of something similar.
My uncle, an ardent communist and trade unionist ( not uncommon, as he was a miner) was also an avowed atheist. I thought he was a brilliant, witty, friendly man and I wouldn't have a word said against him. When cancer struck, and it was time for him to "make arrangements", he made it very clear that he did not want a Christian funeral, or any religious trappings for that matter.
However, when he did die, his older brother took over.
The minister was booked, as well as the crematorium. I was a young teenager at the time, and I thought that was the way it was 'done', although it didn't make much sense to me. The older brother, however, claimed that the minister was very basic in the way he conducted the service.

How could he, or anyone else, have been anything BUT basic in that situation? I wish relatives would respect their loved ones wishes - whatever they might have been.
After all, our mumblings over a body in a box will change nothing. The funeral is there for those who are left, and, at that time, the one thing they don't need is hypocrisy.
Leonard James

Yes, Jim, I fully agree with you.
Boss Cat

Yes, if your uncle had made this clear it seems highhanded to ignore his wishes to say the least.  My friend has planned her humanist funeral, fair enough, although I would say a silent prayer.  Would that be wrong?

My granddad was a miner, and left wing but not a communist I think.  Strangely though, although he was by no means a churchman - didn't go from one year to the next - he sent my dad to Methodist Sunday school with the other kids and probably never doubted the existence of God in his life.  I think it was right that he had a Christian funeral.

But part of me does think that - in the case of the young man - the funeral would have been for his family and what would help them the best.  Incidentally I don't know what his wishes are.  I imagine that he hadn't thought about it - he wasn't expecting to die.
Lexilogio

My Grandma was an avowed atheist - always declaring that she was far too wicked to darken the door of a church.

She came from a strict non conformist background. And. She didn't conform. She lived.

But her funeral was religious, although minimally so. The service was conducted by a Catholic priest who is an old family friend, and son of her one time best mate. (None of us are Catholic). It seemed fitting in a way. Although we ignored her wishes to take her down in a wheelbarrow.....
Leonard James

Lexilogio wrote:
My Grandma was an avowed atheist - always declaring that she was far too wicked to darken the door of a church.

She came from a strict non conformist background. And. She didn't conform. She lived.

But her funeral was religious, although minimally so. The service was conducted by a Catholic priest who is an old family friend, and son of her one time best mate. (None of us are Catholic). It seemed fitting in a way. Although we ignored her wishes to take her down in a wheelbarrow.....

She sounds as if she was a nice old lady with a great sense of humour!  I never knew any of my grandparents, they all died before I was born.

Whether we should obey the last wishes of the deceased is a matter of conscience. Promises are made to be kept I suppose, but if the person concerned is dead, they aren't going to know if you break it, are they?
Shaker

Leonard James wrote:
Whether we should obey the last wishes of the deceased is a matter of conscience. Promises are made to be kept I suppose, but if the person concerned is dead, they aren't going to know if you break it, are they?

Technically true, but if we can be so cavalier about ignoring the last wishes of somebody relating to their funeral arrangements, by the same logic we could presumably forget about making a will, if it can be so easily ignored/overridden.
Leonard James

Shaker wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
Whether we should obey the last wishes of the deceased is a matter of conscience. Promises are made to be kept I suppose, but if the person concerned is dead, they aren't going to know if you break it, are they?

Technically true, but if we can be so cavalier about ignoring the last wishes of somebody relating to their funeral arrangements, by the same logic we could presumably forget about making a will, if it can be so easily ignored/overridden.

I suppose if it's a written instruction in a will, it must be observed by law. Steve. I was assuming it to be just a verbal promise during life.
Boss Cat

Now I promise I am not trying to get religion in by the back door here; we all have our reasons for where we are and why and most of you won't understand this.  But one of the things that does give me a nudge towards my rather wet 'something else theism' is  that Things Matter - even when there's no consequentialist reason why they do.

In Britain if you die unknown with nothing in  you get a CofE funeral with a Council officer as mourner.  Doesn't make any difference to the deceased of course, and perhaps it's a howling disgrace (though inevitable) that people do die in such circumstances, but it says something positive about your culture that it matters somehow.  I think so anyway.  I am told by health professionals that you are trained to talk to the recently deceased as you deal with their bodies.
Ketty

Cadavers should be treated with respect for the human being they once were; ie more than the empty carcass they are - I guess that to encourage talking is to remember that the earthly shell was once a unique, living and breathing individual.  

A funeral is for the living.  The funeral should be organised with respect: respect for the known wishes of the one who died, and with respect for the 'now' of those who are mourning.
SceptiKarl

I hereby promise to come back and haunt any priest, holy man, shaman, witch doctor etc. who comes within 100 yards of my funeral!

Boss Cat

Thereby proving to them that the spirit world is real!

Whoooooooooo!
trentvoyager

Re: Would it matter?

Judders Lady... wrote:
Boss Cat wrote:
This question is based on a true story, some details changed.

I am assuming you are an atheist, perhaps anti theist. Suppose some of your friends would share that to some extent.  Now suppose one of these friends died as a result of a rather unconventional lifestyle.  Perhaps they were smuggling class A drugs into the country and the condom burst in their stomach (it happens).

Now in the instance I know of the family were Christian and they had a full requiem mass.  How would you feel about that? I mean would you be indignant that the family had arranged something that did not reflect the person you knew and maybe ignored the person you knew?


I can't see that matter what you or I think.
People have to be buried and if it helps those grieving come to terms with the death and loss of a loved one... shouldn't their feeling be what matters?


Oh look A True Christian posting on NGL returns.......now there's an unusual event...........
gone

     
SceptiKarl

Boss Cat:

Quote:
Thereby proving to them that the spirit world is real!

Whoooooooooo!


Sorry Boss Cat, just my poor attempt at humour! Christians are just so much more funny. Men coming back from the dead; talking snakes; burning bushes talking; seas parting, etc Yep, I must admit my humour is pretty pathetic and unimaginative compared with the Bible!

Boss Cat

Well I was making a silly joke too, I didn't take you too seriously.
cyberman

SceptiKarl wrote:
burning bushes talking;


Is the bush itself reputed to have spoken?
SceptiKarl

cyberman:

Quote:
Is the bush itself reputed to have spoken?


Just to remind cyberman of the story:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_bush

In order for the bush to convince Moses that it was really, really Yaweh, (God), speaking via the burning bush, various miracles were performed on the spot, and even then Moses was not happy about it! I can't blame him. God of course then got angry! (Well it is the OT!)
cyberman

SceptiKarl wrote:
cyberman:

Quote:
Is the bush itself reputed to have spoken?


Just to remind cyberman of the story:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_bush

In order for the bush to convince Moses that it was really, really Yaweh, (God), speaking via the burning bush, various miracles were performed on the spot, and even then Moses was not happy about it! I can't blame him. God of course then got angry! (Well it is the OT!)


Is that a yes or a no?
Shrub Dweller

SceptiKarl wrote:
cyberman:

Quote:
Is the bush itself reputed to have spoken?


Just to remind cyberman of the story:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_bush

In order for the bush to convince Moses that it was really, really Yaweh, (God), speaking via the burning bush, various miracles were performed on the spot, and even then Moses was not happy about it! I can't blame him. God of course then got angry! (Well it is the OT!)

Of course God got angry he didn't have anymore tricks up his sleeve  
Shrub Dweller

cyberman wrote:
SceptiKarl wrote:
cyberman:

Quote:
Is the bush itself reputed to have spoken?


Just to remind cyberman of the story:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_bush

In order for the bush to convince Moses that it was really, really Yaweh, (God), speaking via the burning bush, various miracles were performed on the spot, and even then Moses was not happy about it! I can't blame him. God of course then got angry! (Well it is the OT!)


Is that a yes or a no?

You're a Catholic aren't you ? Don't you know your own book ?
cymrudynnion

Leonard James wrote:
Shaker wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
Whether we should obey the last wishes of the deceased is a matter of conscience. Promises are made to be kept I suppose, but if the person concerned is dead, they aren't going to know if you break it, are they?

Technically true, but if we can be so cavalier about ignoring the last wishes of somebody relating to their funeral arrangements, by the same logic we could presumably forget about making a will, if it can be so easily ignored/overridden.

I suppose if it's a written instruction in a will, it must be observed by law. Steve. I was assuming it to be just a verbal promise during life.
The problem with Wills as far as i know is trhey are usually read after the funeral so it would be too late. This has inclines to teh Organ Donor thread on R&E when I am dead I won't be here. Although i trust my nearest and dearest to carry out my wishes that is exactly what it boils down to Trust.
A former colleague of mine was a humanist.when he died the funeral was held in Thornhill Crem. Yes the Cross was covered although you could still see it but what surprised me was towards the end the celebrant suggested anyone present who was reliogious be now given a few minutes of quiet to pray for the deceased.
cyberman

Shrub Dweller wrote:
cyberman wrote:
SceptiKarl wrote:
cyberman:

Quote:
Is the bush itself reputed to have spoken?


Just to remind cyberman of the story:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_bush

In order for the bush to convince Moses that it was really, really Yaweh, (God), speaking via the burning bush, various miracles were performed on the spot, and even then Moses was not happy about it! I can't blame him. God of course then got angry! (Well it is the OT!)


Is that a yes or a no?

You're a Catholic aren't you ? Don't you know your own book ?


Not off by heart no! I don't think there is a talking bush. You think there is one. I think the story claims that it was God talking, and that his voice seemed to come from a bush. What do you think? Why are you never able to explain your own utterances?
Shrub Dweller

cyberman wrote:
Shrub Dweller wrote:
cyberman wrote:
SceptiKarl wrote:
cyberman:

Quote:
Is the bush itself reputed to have spoken?


Just to remind cyberman of the story:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_bush

In order for the bush to convince Moses that it was really, really Yaweh, (God), speaking via the burning bush, various miracles were performed on the spot, and even then Moses was not happy about it! I can't blame him. God of course then got angry! (Well it is the OT!)


Is that a yes or a no?

You're a Catholic aren't you ? Don't you know your own book ?


Not off by heart no! I don't think there is a talking bush. You think there is one. I think the story claims that it was God talking, and that his voice seemed to come from a bush. What do you think? Why are you never able to explain your own utterances?

I have no idea why this subject came up but as you say it is a story, a myth, so does it matter ? If Moses was a little loopy then the voice would have come from his head in the way some mentally sick people hear voices and likewise the burning bush would have been an hallucination. Perhaps he had eaten some wild fruits which had a strong psychoactive chemical in it ?
cyberman

Shrub Dweller wrote:
cyberman wrote:
Shrub Dweller wrote:
cyberman wrote:
SceptiKarl wrote:
cyberman:

Quote:
Is the bush itself reputed to have spoken?


Just to remind cyberman of the story:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_bush

In order for the bush to convince Moses that it was really, really Yaweh, (God), speaking via the burning bush, various miracles were performed on the spot, and even then Moses was not happy about it! I can't blame him. God of course then got angry! (Well it is the OT!)


Is that a yes or a no?

You're a Catholic aren't you ? Don't you know your own book ?


Not off by heart no! I don't think there is a talking bush. You think there is one. I think the story claims that it was God talking, and that his voice seemed to come from a bush. What do you think? Why are you never able to explain your own utterances?

I have no idea why this subject came up but as you say it is a story, a myth, so does it matter ? If Moses was a little loopy then the voice would have come from his head in the way some mentally sick people hear voices and likewise the burning bush would have been an hallucination. Perhaps he had eaten some wild fruits which had a strong psychoactive chemical in it ?


Thanks for coming Dweller. You have contributed nothing at all, as usual.
Karl thinks the story includes a talking bush. I think it doesn't.
SceptiKarl

cyberman thinks I don't know the story of how God spoke to Moses through a burning bush. Well I do, and here it is in part for those who don't know it:



Quote:
1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.”
4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!”

  And Moses said, “Here I am.”

5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.” 6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father,[a] the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.


Exodus 3 1-5
Shrub Dweller

cyberman wrote:
[quote="Shrub Dweller:62201]I have no idea why this subject came up but as you say it is a story, a myth, so does it matter ? If Moses was a little loopy then the voice would have come from his head in the way some mentally sick people hear voices and likewise the burning bush would have been an hallucination. Perhaps he had eaten some wild fruits which had a strong psychoactive chemical in it ?


Quote:
Thanks for coming Dweller. You have contributed nothing at all, as usual.
Karl thinks the story includes a talking bush. I think it doesn't.

Contribution to what ? What you two think on this matter counts for nothing for it is what the book or story says as to who or what is talking. As for what was actually going on, if this story is steeped in any actual event, then I would say my assessment is closer to the truth.
SceptiKarl

Shrub Dweller is probably right, imo.

Quote:
As for what was actually going on, if this story is steeped in any actual event, then I would say my assessment is closer to the truth.


Just what had Moses been smoking?
cyberman

SceptiKarl wrote:
cyberman thinks I don't know the story of how God spoke to Moses through a burning bush.


I think no such thing. Stop making stuff up. I have merely said that it is my recollection that the story does not describe a talking bush, but that the story describes God's voice which appeared to come from a bush.

Shrub Dweller's contribution - telling us he doesn't think it is a true story - is irrelevant - we are not debating whether it is a true story, we are debating the detail of the story.

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