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Oak King (rtd)

Yule Blessings

Yule Blessings to one and all.

May the coming year be better and brighter for all of us.  

BB H
Judders Lady...

Can I ask you, Oak King...

Why not just wish everyone a Merry Christmas?
Considering people celebrate it sincerely, why would you not respect their celebration by wishing them a Merry Christmas or at least seasonal greetings?

I think Yule which is the solstice is not a reason to celebrate.
So why Yule?

Love Judders Lady...xx
Oak King (rtd)

<<Can I ask you, Oak King... >>

of course you may.......

<<Why not just wish everyone a Merry Christmas?>>

Because as this is the 'Other religions' Board it was appropriate to post a Yule greeting, besides it's not Christmas yet.

<<Considering people celebrate it sincerely, why would you not respect their celebration by wishing them a Merry Christmas or at least seasonal greetings?>>

I shall wish hem exactly that when the time is appropriate.

<<I think Yule which is the solstice is not a reason to celebrate.
So why Yule?>>

Frankly I dont give a fiddlers F*** for what you think

BB H
Dave B

Re: Yule Blessings

Oak King (rtd) wrote:
Yule Blessings to one and all.

May the coming year be better and brighter for all of us.  

BB H
I'll second that H
trentvoyager

Quote:
Frankly I dont give a fiddlers F*** for what you think




Happy Yule, Oaky!
Shaker

Quote:
Wolcum Yole, Wolcum alle and make good cheer,
Wolcum alle another yere,
Wolcum Yole, Wolcum!

Or something like that  
T8-eh-T8

Happy Yule to you too Oaky

Blessings Be.
Farmer Geddon

A bit early I know, but:

Wassail! Wassail!
All over the town!
Our bread is so musty
Our cheese is so brown!
God send our master a good crop of corn,
With the wassailing bowl we drink to thee!



Or the traditional version


Here we come a-wassailing
Among the leaves so green;
Here we come a-wandering
So fair to be seen.

Love and joy come to you,
And to you your wassail too;
And God bless you and send you a Happy New Year
And God send you a Happy New Year.

Our wassail cup is made
Of the rosemary tree,
And so is your beer
Of the best barley.


We are not daily beggars
That beg from door to door;
But we are neighbours' children,
Whom you have seen before.


Call up the butler of this house,
Put on his golden ring.
Let him bring us up a glass of beer,
And better we shall sing.


We have got a little purse
Of stretching leather skin;
We want a little of your money
To line it well within.


Bring us out a table
And spread it with a cloth;
Bring us out a mouldy cheese,
And some of your Christmas loaf.


God bless the master of this house
Likewise the mistress too,
And all the little children
That round the table go


Good master and good mistress,
While you're sitting by the fire,
Pray think of us poor children
Who are wandering in the mire.
Pukon_the_Treen

Now I suppose I must embark on an arduous twelve day session of feasting and revelry to celebrate *sigh*

By the way Oak, I see according to the excellent Robert Graves, your namesake has conquered the Holly King! Well done that Anthropomorphic Personification; the year will start quickening again in no time now.
Farmer Geddon

Judders Lady... wrote:
Can I ask you, Oak King...

Why not just wish everyone a Merry Christmas?

What is "Christmas"?
Quote:
Considering people celebrate it sincerely, why would you not respect their celebration by wishing them a Merry Christmas or at least seasonal greetings?

A, getting smaller, contingent celebrate it as a "Christmas" as the truth behind this misnomer becomes more widespread.

Why would prefer "seasons greetings" instead of Happy Yuletide?

Quote:
I think Yule which is the solstice is not a reason to celebrate.
So why Yule?


Well in that case you 'thought'  WRONG... (once again).

Yule celebrations are a lot older in this culture than the bastardised Roman version we jolly along to today.. Jesus is NOT the reason for the Season - unless you think he is a Sun God of course..

You really do need to stop and think before you twitter Lynne..


BTW Oaky:

Yule Blessings to you and yours also    
Oak King (rtd)

Right, that's that over although the feasting and the frolics continue. Next Biggy is Beltane and the coming of the Stag Lord........I DO enjoy that one  
Judders Lady...

Oak King (rtd) wrote:
<<Can I ask you, Oak King... >>

of course you may.......

<<Why not just wish everyone a Merry Christmas?>>

Because as this is the 'Other religions' Board it was appropriate to post a Yule greeting, besides it's not Christmas yet.

<<Considering people celebrate it sincerely, why would you not respect their celebration by wishing them a Merry Christmas or at least seasonal greetings?>>

I shall wish hem exactly that when the time is appropriate.

<<I think Yule which is the solstice is not a reason to celebrate.
So why Yule?>>

Frankly I dont give a fiddlers F*** for what you think

BB H



But Yule in the dictionary the English dictionary is shown to mean Christmas. So you are wishing everyone a Merry Christmas, really.

What a lot of fuss about a simple post...

I see no reason for your last remark, (other than you by placing your post in other religions), did not realise that the dictionary definition gives Christmas as being the festival of Christs nativity 25th December...

So really Oak King, according to the dictionary you are to all intents and purposes when celebrating 'Yule' celebrating Christmas which is also the celebration of Jesus Christ.

Love Judders Lady...xx
Shaker

Quote:
But Yule in the dictionary the English dictionary is shown to mean Christmas. So you are wishing everyone a Merry Christmas, really.

No. Yule has become known as a synonym for Christmas over the years, but only one way: some sort of midwinter festivity came first, Christmas came after. So Christmas is very much the Johnny-come-lately on the scene here.

Quote:
I see no reason for your last remark, (other than you by placing your post in other religions), did not realise that the dictionary definition gives Christmas as being the festival of Christs nativity 25th December...

(a) That's not how the vast majority celebrate it;
(b) Even assuming that there was a historical Jesus, December 25th wasn't the date of his birth according to nearly every scholar in the relevant field. That's a purely political choice for reasons of convenience, like the Queen's official birthday.
Oak King (rtd)

<<But Yule in the dictionary the English dictionary is shown to mean Christmas. So you are wishing everyone a Merry Christmas, really.  

What a lot of fuss about a simple post...>>

Have you forgotten that it was you who started 'the fuss'? Such a short memory. I think you might find that your dictionary definition of Yule is but one of many.

<<I see no reason for your last remark, (other than you by placing your post in other religions), did not realise that the dictionary definition gives Christmas as being the festival of Christs nativity 25th December...>>

Which is yet to come, Yule commenced on the 21st

<<So really Oak King, according to the dictionary you are to all intents and purposes when celebrating 'Yule' celebrating Christmas which is also the celebration of Jesus Christ.>>

If it amuses you to think that, then I haveno problem with it. Easily amused aren't you.

BB H
Dave B

Judders Lady... wrote:

But Yule in the dictionary the English dictionary is shown to mean Christmas. So you are wishing everyone a Merry Christmas, really.

It may depend on which dictionary you consult - they do not all say the same thing!

I always go by an Oxford jobby, the Oxford English Dictionary to be precise.

That does say that it means "Christmas Day" but qualifies it:

"Old English geoll(a) 'Christmas Day; compare with Old Norse jol, originally applied to a heathen festival lasting twelve days, later to Christmas."

So that's where the "Twelve Days of Christamas" come from as well.

Accept it, Lynne, that the Christians stole this season's festivities from the heathens, just as they stole Easter (from the goddess of fertility, Eostre). Pandering to the peasants to slide their foreign religion in under the door!

[/code]
Shaker

Oak:In Wiccan circles are there any specific traditions associated with Yule - the sorts of things which are 'always done' (so to speak)?
Oak King (rtd)

admin. wrote:
Oak:In Wiccan circles are there any specific traditions associated with Yule - the sorts of things which are 'always done' (so to speak)?


Wiccans tend to vary widely in their practice, I would say that the only constant is the celebration of the winter solstice, exactly how that is celebrated tends to vary depending on the coven or individual involved. We have developed a tradition of enacting the battle between the Oak and Holly kings for the ruleof the land.......usually with plenty of slapstick comedy.


The mid winter feast tends to be fairly popular, though that can be anything from everyone going to a restaurant for a meal down to meeting up in someones home and bringing food and drink to share.

BB H
Lexilogio

I hope you enjoyed the solstice, Oak King,

and a Happy Yule  
Shaker

Thanks Oak.

Apologies for any (entirely unintentional) howlers: I've read around paganism generally and Wicca a little so I'm dredging this up from the dusty corners of what passes for my brain, but am I right in thinking that as well as the Wheel of the Year, Wicca divides the year into two basic seasons, Summer (that corresponds to the usual spring and summer) and Winter (autumn and winter) and that the Oak King rules the former and the Holly King the latter? Though this may be Asatru/heathenry - it's been a while since I read up on this. I've read several books on Wicca and general paganism - Scott Cunningham and Vivianne Crowley spring to mind, though I don't know if they're considered reliable amongst real Wiccans. Ronald Huttons's Triumph of the Moon was a scholarly and rather dense read but enjoyable, as I recall: Stations of the Sun was even better.
Lexilogio

Perhaps I should admit now that my knowledge of Paganism is limited in the extreme.

So if I make any howlers - apologies in advance, and please just point the error out!
Pukon_the_Treen

'Triumph of the Moon' was excellent, but I've not read 'Stations of the Sun' or The Rise and Fall of Merry England', though I have both of them.

My knowledge of Wicca and Neo-Paganism is virtually limited to 'Triumph of the Moon', though (like many people) I do find the idea of such an individualistic and organic approach religion / philosophy fascinating.
Farmer Geddon

Lexilogio wrote:
Perhaps I should admit now that my knowledge of Paganism is limited in the extreme.

So if I make any howlers - apologies in advance, and please just point the error out!


Don't worry about it Lexi - Most Christians are ignorant about the reason for the season..



Oak King (rtd)

admin. wrote:
Thanks Oak.

Apologies for any (entirely unintentional) howlers: I've read around paganism generally and Wicca a little so I'm dredging this up from the dusty corners of what passes for my brain, but am I right in thinking that as well as the Wheel of the Year, Wicca divides the year into two basic seasons, Summer (that corresponds to the usual spring and summer) and Winter (autumn and winter) and that the Oak King rules the former and the Holly King the latter? Though this may be Asatru/heathenry - it's been a while since I read up on this. I've read several books on Wicca and general paganism - Scott Cunningham and Vivianne Crowley spring to mind, though I don't know if they're considered reliable amongst real Wiccans. Ronald Huttons's Triumph of the Moon was a scholarly and rather dense read but enjoyable, as I recall: Stations of the Sun was even better.


I wouldn't so much say that we divide the year into summer and winter, it's more that we recognize the solstices as major turning points in the year, with the equinoxes further sub dividing the year. Curiously despite the significance of the quarter days, the solstices and equinoxes, they actually represent the lesser sabbats, the greater sabbats being the cross quarter days.
The Oak King/Holly King thing I believe was introduced into Wicca by Stewart Farrar who borrowed it from Robert Graves, it has managed to become a fairly standard piece of mythology for use in seasonal ritual.

Viv Crowley is pretty sound reading, at least in my opinion, although, as with everything that deals with modern pagan practice, it is unwise to quote her stuff as 'gospel'. Wicca is still a very, very, young religious path and consequently is in a constant state of flux. Scott Cunningham, hmmm, opinion on his stuff is extremely divided, some of themore dyed in the wool Wiccans decry him awfully, I don't think he's all that bad. Maybe he is a bit 'fluffy,' but for someone who wants a broad and basic understanding of modern wiccan practice his books are not bad primers,just don't expect to find anything of great depth in them. Ronald Hutton? Definately a big thumbs up on that score, heavy going at times but definately well worth taking the trouble to wade through.

BB H
Judders Lady...

Oak King (rtd) wrote:
<<But Yule in the dictionary the English dictionary is shown to mean Christmas. So you are wishing everyone a Merry Christmas, really.  

What a lot of fuss about a simple post...>>

Have you forgotten that it was you who started 'the fuss'? Such a short memory. I think you might find that your dictionary definition of Yule is but one of many.


What fuss? I asked you a perfectly civil question expecting answers based on your knowledge. It was you who started to become uncivil.


Quote:
<<I see no reason for your last remark, (other than you by placing your post in other religions), did not realise that the dictionary definition gives Christmas as being the festival of Christs nativity 25th December...>>

Which is yet to come, Yule commenced on the 21st


Actually, Christ was born in October during the 7th month of the Hebrew Calender.  The Winter Solstice does not actually always occur on the 21st.
That is in astronomers terms.
Quote:


<<So really Oak King, according to the dictionary you are to all intents and purposes when celebrating 'Yule' celebrating Christmas which is also the celebration of Jesus Christ.>>

If it amuses you to think that, then I haveno problem with it. Easily amused aren't you.

BB H


That is easily disproved. Explain what would be  intellectually amusing
about it?

Seems you tend to believe in things that are mainly myth. You also create them too.

Love Judders Lady...
Pukon_the_Treen

Quote:
Seems you tend to believe in things that are mainly myth. You also create them too.


Well yes; that's what all religions do.
Judders Lady...

Pukon_the_Treen wrote:
Quote:
Seems you tend to believe in things that are mainly myth. You also create them too.


Well yes; that's what all religions do.


Tell me what the bible says you must do to know if what Christ says is true or not?

Because if you do not know and have not done it, then you cannot state it to be a myth...
Pukon_the_Treen

Quote:
Tell me what the bible says you must do to know if what Christ says is true or not?

Because if you do not know and have not done it, then you cannot state it to be a myth...


Ah, I think I recognise this argument from somewhere … yes, if it isn't the old “I know I'm right and everyone else is wrong because I decide what The Truth ™ is” argument!

I didn't find that argument persuasive the last time you used it, or the other fifty odd times before that, so why should I find it persuasive now?
Farmer Geddon

Simple answer is - believe what the church tells you about the christ.

Everything else is superfluous.. even an idiot can see that.
Judders Lady...

Pukon_the_Treen wrote:
Quote:
Tell me what the bible says you must do to know if what Christ says is true or not?

Because if you do not know and have not done it, then you cannot state it to be a myth...


Ah, I think I recognise this argument from somewhere … yes, if it isn't the old “I know I'm right and everyone else is wrong because I decide what The Truth ™ is” argument!


I see the old ' I cannot answer  so will use the ' Only you have the Truth' argument which has absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand.
Which does show you to be unable to give an answer.


Quote:

I didn't find that argument persuasive the last time you used it, or the other fifty odd times before that, so why should I find it persuasive now?


Please tell us what the argument consists of and where it originated from.

It came from atheists who falsely accused me. Just as you do here.
This argument was clearly about YOU and your knowledge of the bible.
Quote:



Tell me what the bible says you must do to know if what Christ says is true or not?

Because if you do not know and have not done it, then you cannot state it to be a myth...


Absolutely NOTHING in there about me or the truth.
Just all about you and what the bible says...

Is it surprising you get it wrong and make false accusations?
No! You simply use it as a smoke screen to mask the fact you cannot answer the questions. Now everyone can see plainly that Puke_on_Treen does not know the bible...

Love JL.xx
Pukon_the_Treen

You are insisting that unlike neo-paganism, Christianity is The Truth ™, not mythology, and you are basing that upon … your conviction that your interpretation of the bible is The Truth ™ and that you are right because the bible says you are right.

This is the same closed in, bigoted little circular argument you use pretty much every time you post something. It's rubbish.
Oak King (rtd)

<<Seems you tend to believe in things that are mainly myth. You also create them too.>>

Something Wicca has in common with every other religion on this planet.

BB H
Dave B

Oak King (rtd) wrote:
<<Seems you tend to believe in things that are mainly myth. You also create them too.>>

Something Wicca has in common with every other religion on this planet.

BB H
And most political systems as well.  
Leonard James

Oak King (rtd) wrote:
<<Seems you tend to believe in things that are mainly myth. You also create them too.>>

Something Wicca has in common with every other religion on this planet.

BB H

Spot on, OK. It is nice to hear someone who follows a religion admit that all of them are myths created by man for those that need them, like social clubs.
Oak King (rtd)

Leonard James wrote:
Oak King (rtd) wrote:
<<Seems you tend to believe in things that are mainly myth. You also create them too.>>

Something Wicca has in common with every other religion on this planet.

BB H

Spot on, OK. It is nice to hear someone who follows a religion admit that all of them are myths created by man for those that need them, like social clubs.


Well it's a bit more than just a social club, but there is no denying that the social side is important.

BB H
Leonard James

Oak King (rtd) wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
Oak King (rtd) wrote:
<<Seems you tend to believe in things that are mainly myth. You also create them too.>>

Something Wicca has in common with every other religion on this planet.

BB H

Spot on, OK. It is nice to hear someone who follows a religion admit that all of them are myths created by man for those that need them, like social clubs.


Well it's a bit more than just a social club, but there is no denying that the social side is important.

BB H

Of course, OK. I wasn't suggesting the need they fulfilled was only a social one, but simply pointing out that all religions were created by men who felt the need for there to be 'something more' than the universe and life that we know.
Oak King (rtd)

Leonard James wrote:
Oak King (rtd) wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
Oak King (rtd) wrote:
<<Seems you tend to believe in things that are mainly myth. You also create them too.>>

Something Wicca has in common with every other religion on this planet.

BB H

Spot on, OK. It is nice to hear someone who follows a religion admit that all of them are myths created by man for those that need them, like social clubs.


Well it's a bit more than just a social club, but there is no denying that the social side is important.

BB H

Of course, OK. I wasn't suggesting the need they fulfilled was only a social one, but simply pointing out that all religions were created by men who felt the need for there to be 'something more' than the universe and life that we know.


I thinkmost Wiccans would accept that and acknowledge that deities are something of a mental construct that enable us to rationalise the completely irrational. Funny old business innit  

BB H
Dave B

Oak King (rtd) wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
Oak King (rtd) wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
Oak King (rtd) wrote:
<<Seems you tend to believe in things that are mainly myth. You also create them too.>>

Something Wicca has in common with every other religion on this planet.

BB H

Spot on, OK. It is nice to hear someone who follows a religion admit that all of them are myths created by man for those that need them, like social clubs.


Well it's a bit more than just a social club, but there is no denying that the social side is important.

BB H

Of course, OK. I wasn't suggesting the need they fulfilled was only a social one, but simply pointing out that all religions were created by men who felt the need for there to be 'something more' than the universe and life that we know.


I thinkmost Wiccans would accept that and acknowledge that deities are something of a mental construct that enable us to rationalise the completely irrational. Funny old business innit  

BB H
As my sister used to say, something to unscrute the inscrutable.
Leonard James

Hi Oakie,

I would be interested to hear what it is that is irrational that needs rationalising, because I can see nothing irrational about life or the universe.
jeremyp

Dave B wrote:

Accept it, Lynne, that the Christians stole this season's festivities from the heathens, just as they stole Easter (from the goddess of fertility, Eostre).

Sorry Dave, but that's just not true.  As far as anybody knows Yule does not predate Christmas and it wasn't stolen by Christians.  Certainly, when Christianity took over, the Yule festivity was merged in with Christmas, but Christmas itself probably evolved from some Roman Winter Solstice jollity.

Easter is even more clear cut.  It's clearly based on the Jewish Pesach.   We only call it Easter because it fell in the month named after Eostre.
Shaker

Quote:
Christmas itself probably evolved from some Roman Winter Solstice jollity.

Most likely Saturnalia.

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