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Judders Lady...
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Joined: 31 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:32 am    Post subject:  Reply with quote

My name is URL wrote:


Now this is where it gets interesting - you cite "Dive and Lazarus" from Luke 16....

As has already been postulated the Sheol and Ge Hinnom of the Hebrew text were rendered into Hades and Tartarus when translated into the Greek. With me so far?


The book of the dead ancient Egyptian work. It is a collection of Exorcisms, funerary texts and  and directions of the souls journey through the underworld.  It is based upon a predynastic nucleus it grew by the Ptolemaic Age  into a substantial work in at least 165 chapters.

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Now Hādēs (AKA Haidēs, Ăidēs, or Ăidōneus) which usually refers to the God, not his "kingdom" - (Hades was given the Underworld kingdom when the lots were drawn). But both are synonymous....

But he was also known as Pluto (the Latin form of the Greek Ploutōn, ‘the wealth-giver’) so had a duality of being the God of Death as well as the God of Wealth - whose Roman/Latin equivalent was Dis (the contracted form of Latin dives, meaning ‘rich’).


Yes it was called Pluto. the Word later denoted the the invisible underworld itself, the abode of the departed. It was said to be constituated within the earth ( something that was always believed) and bounded by the River Styx, over which Charon ferried the dead.
Pluto being the Roman name and the Greek being Hades.

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Of course we all know that in the Hebrew Lazarus means "God has Helped".
The Hebrew name is 'Eleazar'(אֶלְעָזָ and it does mean "God has helped"
Quote:

So far we have the book of life trumping the book of the dead and Lazurus trumping Hades..... or at least trying to........


You will have to explain this... I can see no reason why a book which is known to have no continuation in it's books or times of writing can trump the book of life.  

Love Lynne.xx Smilie_PDT
_________________
Beware of the Judderman my dear, when the moon is fat.  Psalm 101:5.Whoso privily slandereth his neighbour, him will I cut off: him that hath an high look and a proud heart will not I suffer.
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Farmer Geddon
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought it was obvious??

Actually read to yourself what I asked, then read your responses and you will see you never actually answered anything I asked - but just went off on a tangent that ... made sense only to you.


Last edited by Farmer Geddon on Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Farmer Geddon
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK V.

I have read your post twice now and still can't see where the notion of orthadox hell originated..  So a direct question is in order:  Where do you think it originated from, apart from the latter theological postulations...

I'm talking about where they got their notion of "purgatory" from.

How did the Jewish notion of cleansing turn into the catholic notion punishment?
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phil
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe... wrote:
My name is URL wrote:

So far we have the book of life trumping the book of the dead and Lazurus trumping Hades..... or at least trying to........


You will have to explain this... I can see no reason why a book which is known to have no continuation in it's books or times of writing can trump the book of life.  

Love Lynne.xx Smilie_PDT


According to URL's post he has the book of life trumping the book of the dead. You have obviously misread his post since you wonder how the book of the dead can trump the book of life which is not what URL said.

How are you going to explain that without admitting a mistake (in reading what was said) on your part?

Notice too that URL has accused you of going off on a tangent. Same observation that I made esewhere.
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ceramic
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My name is URL wrote:
OK V.

I have read your post twice now and still can't see where the notion of orthadox hell originated..  So a direct question is in order:  Where do you think it originated from, apart from the latter theological postulations...

I'm talking about where they got their notion of "purgatory" from.

How did the Jewish notion of cleansing turn into the catholic notion punishment?


URL ... yes, the previous article is not supposed to discuss the origin of hell but rather was something I couldnt resist but to sneak into the discussion ... its a very good article.

Eternal Hell

The holy Bible calls "hell" the state of spiritual death. In fact it uses the term gehenna giving it the same meaning (Matth. 10:28; koine text) (= hell). It also talks about "outer darkness" (Matth. 8:12. 22:13. 25:30), "fiery furnace" (Matth. 13:42), "eternal fire" (Matth. 25:41), "fiery pool" (Revel. 19:20. 20:10.15), "second death" (Revel. 2:11. 20:6. 21:8 ).

These images are not symbols of annihilation, but of torture. The unjust will be led to a "second death" (Revel. 21:8 ), which is a destruction (Matth. 10:28, in conjunction with Luke 15:4.24. 1 Cor. 5:5) and actually destruction from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of God (2 Thessal. 1:9. Matth. 7:23. Luke 13:27-28 ).

Eternal hell is a reality, in the same way eternal life is a reality. The choice is made by man himself in this life. If he loves the light and its works, he will have eternal communion with the Light of the world (Jo. 8:12). If he chooses the works of darkness and moves away from the Light, he stays in outer darkness and is led to "eternal destruction from the face of the Lord". God respects man's choice (Jo. 3:16-21. Sirach 5:14-17).

Those that will prefer darkness, will not be "received", i.e. they will be deprived of the communion with God. In their life on earth, they loved darkness and the works of darkness and this choice of theirs constitutes their sentence (Matth. 24:40-41. Luke 17:34-36) : "And this is the judgment, that the light came into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were cunning [= evil]" (Jo. 3:19).

In the holy Bible the term "Hades" is used to denote the "place" of existence of the dead, independently of reward or punishment. The term Hades does not necessarily mean hell (Acts 2:27. Luke 16:23). The faithful ones that slept in the Lord, enjoy the communion with God (Revel. 6:11. 20:4), but nevertheless exist in a state of waiting; they await the body's resurrection to a new state of undecayingness and immortality, in order for their joy to be complete; for they will be re-united with their body, with which body they exercised virtue; their happiness and joy will be eternal (1 Corinth. 15:42-54). Christ has the "keys" to Hades and death (Revel. 1:18 ). He will cancel both; our hope is certain (Revel. 20:4).
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ceramic
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the formal discussion is about a "Cultural History of Hell" ("Infernology") so I did a google search on the term and found the two most popular hits are the following two book references:

1) "The History of Hell" by Alice K. Turner (I think she is involved in Hinduism or Eastern mysticism of kind) ...
2) "Inferno: A cultural history of hell" by Margaret Kean (Margaret Kean is a Lecturer in English at the University of Oxford and Dame Gardner Fellow in English at St Hilda's College Oxford)

It would be interesting to find out what the research of these two authors offers this discussion (rather than us all go off on our own tangents).

Any other book reviews?
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Farmer Geddon
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually V.

Is the Christ still seen as a blood sacrifice in certain sectors?
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Farmer Geddon
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No no Lynne..

What I said was the Greek "Lazarus" means god has helped - which is the same as the Hebrew "Eleazur" it was translated from - so you score nil point there..

The point is there was a book of the dead which pre-dates this so-called book of life that crops up in the mishmash of hallucinogenic observations that the authors of revelation experienced...

Though sometimes I suspect you have abused the shrooms and that may explain who you are today...
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ceramic
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My name is URL wrote:
Actually V. Is the Christ still seen as a blood sacrifice in certain sectors?


Remember, I am "Eastern Orthodox" so we have ONE dogma that is born out of living tradition. If we move to another thread, the answer I give you is that from the church and not my own opinion. Basically, the "blood sacrifice" (sacrifice is not the correct term for it but for the sake of your understanding I can improvise) occured ONCE: At Golgotha 2,000 odd years ago. So, by "blood sacrifice" are you referring to what Orthodox do every Sunday at the Holy Liturgy? OR are you referring to the Jewish nation who are preparing the Red Cow Blood Sacrifice so that they can re-establish the temple in Jerusalem for the third time?

Can you be more specific what you are asking ... and:

1. Do you want to start another thread on this topic as it has no relevance to "hell" ...
2. I am not sure what you mean by "sectors"? By "sectors" do you mean all "other" groups that identify themselves as "Christians" "(off-shoots from Roman Catholicism/Protestantism)? If so, you will get a miriad of responses depending on which group you are interested in.
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Farmer Geddon
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

phil wrote:
I believe... wrote:
My name is URL wrote:

So far we have the book of life trumping the book of the dead and Lazurus trumping Hades..... or at least trying to........


You will have to explain this... I can see no reason why a book which is known to have no continuation in it's books or times of writing can trump the book of life.  

Love Lynne.xx Smilie_PDT


According to URL's post he has the book of life trumping the book of the dead. You have obviously misread his post since you wonder how the book of the dead can trump the book of life which is not what URL said.

How are you going to explain that without admitting a mistake (in reading what was said) on your part?

Notice too that URL has accused you of going off on a tangent. Same observation that I made elsewhere.


Still waiting for you to admit you were wrong Lynne...  LOL

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