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Is God happy to let us get on with it?
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Leonard James
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Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 3963


Location: Spain

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:14 am    Post subject:  Reply with quote

ceramic wrote:
There is plenty of evidence to corroborate that claim.

Really? Do tell me what it is?
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Judders Lady...
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pukon_the_Treen wrote:
Lynne,

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You think that being God means he can go against the system already in place.


Well yes, of course He can, He's God, He can do whatever He likes.


The bible tells us that God is Just and Righteous.
The righteous demands of the law had to be met so Christ has to suffer on the cross. We see that RIGHT AND WRONG cannot be changed or interchanged. That God is who he is because he can do all he says he can. The end from the beginning is told in the bible.
If you knew the bible you would understand why God can never change. And why his words never fail to do as they should.
Light and darkness cannot exist in the same place.
Though God knows both. In the end all evil and darkness will be gone for ever.
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We know that laws are in place not to protect us from those who won't break them but to protect us from the few that will break them. Because the few can do terrible things. Not everyone is good Puke. But should the laws cease to exist what kind of evil and depravity would mankind sink to?


We, humanity have invented laws in order to govern ourselves; they were not imposed on us by another parent entity - they are our laws.  This is fine; if God does exist He has clearly left us to rule ourselves, respecting our free will and autonomy and I appreciate and respect that position.  However, having left us to our freedom as He apparently has done, it is wrong for Him to turn up a the end as a judge; that is not respecting our autonomy; that is despotism.

If Gods rule was despotism - by his complete power, then Adam would never have been able to make the choice to do wrong.
As it went outside Gods complete power and authority. What is clear is that God is sovereign ruler and we have the will to choose.
This very thread on this forum and your ability to write what you want about God, shows no despotism is possible.
Right and Wrong, Life and death, God or the devil, Evil or Good.
Jesus Christ =Love and God or Anti-Christ=Evil and Death.
You get to choose? despotism gives no choices...
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we hear people such as yourself who would glad string a paedophile up and not feel guilt or remorse at doing so.


What the hell are you talking about; when have I ever said I would gladly string up a peadophile?


Make them answerable by taking them out of society?
How else would you describe it, seeing as hanging is unlawful?
Don't play tactics I really do not appreciate it.
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If God had not told us what not to do, then you would be right about him being a despotic judge. But Adam was told the consequence of his actions.


That is a myth, belonging only to a small Middle Eastern tribe. The myth only became popular and widespread once one of the tribe's offshoot cults received the backing of the Roman Empire.  Assuming for the sake of argument that the myth is true, we still have God as a despot; “obey or suffer my punishment”.  What kind of 'free will' is that?  I agree that part of free will is the freedom to face the consequences of your actions, but when those consequences take the form of punishment meted out to you by an entity who is trying to bully, compel or coerce you into obedience that is plainly not free will.


Well if Adam was a myth how come God is still speaking to us now?
Well go on! How did Jesus Christ do all he did. No myths allowed because if it could be proved and was a myth then people would have known and the truth would have died out because it would have been false.
We are all for laws to protect us and others. What is so different between ours and those imposed by God. Neither do us any harm.
The truth is that you don't want to accept the punishment for you breaking the law.
Now that is true of every criminal. They want to break the law but not take the punishment. But if you know the consequences before you break the law, be it, Gods or mans, then you cannot cry injustice.
Justice shows you get what you expected and so deserved.
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If you were a Father would you impose anything upon your son that would harm him? Would you impose anything upon your son to save him from real harm?


When my son was a child I would do my best to protect him from harm, and I would offer guidance and instruction as to how I think he should live his life.  Once he was an autonomous adult I would respect his freedom and right of self-governance; he would at that point be an equal to me, not a minor in need of a level of control, so I would no longer interfere in his life in any way unless asked.


So if your son committed rape or became a serial child- killer you would  think that is okay? You would not expect him to be punished in anyway by yourself or the law. You would still love him and still treat him as you did before? You would not interfere by reporting him if you found out before the authorities?

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Does God respect our free will and our right as autonomous adults to be left alone, free from coercion, instruction and punishment, or does He still deal out instruction and punishment as a father does to a child?  What are you to God; a child or an adult?


Both, a child by the Truth and Spirit being like God and an adult being female and of child bearing age.
But like all parents, right and wrong does not change because of our age or status. We do not stop being a child because we make our own decisions. God made us, our parents are always our parents and care no matter how old we get.
Let us not ignore the obvious to make an argument which cannot be sustained by wearing blinkers when looking at the situation.
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Well why do you not see this in the actions of God and you?


To be honest, I have never seen or felt the presence of God in the least, and His existence to me seem highly improbable, so I assume if He does exist He is quite rightly leaving me the hell alone to govern myself.  If He then pops up at the end of my life and starts laying down the law about how I should have acted and trying to hand our judgement and punishment then he can bugger off; that isn't His right, and if He cannot see that then His morality is inferior to mine (mind you we knew that from His conduct in the Old Testament anyway).


Again. You know nothing about the reasons for what happened in the OT. You know nothing about God as a person and if you understood the bible you would not make such suggestions as to think you are able to tell God to "Bugger off" or have any control over where you go on judgement day.

You can protest all you want but Christ will return and you will definitely be judged. The point is you don't have that choice to make. It is made by you when you reject Christ. So what is the point of saying things against the truth? The truth is all have sinned including you and we all understand we have to account for it.
No different from accounting to the law here.

Love Lynne.xxx Smilie_PDT
_________________
Beware of the Judderman my dear, when the moon is fat.  Psalm 101:5.Whoso privily slandereth his neighbour, him will I cut off: him that hath an high look and a proud heart will not I suffer.


Last edited by Judders Lady... on Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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Leonard James
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello again Lynne,
Judders Lady... wrote:
God created us perfect but free will must be the right to choose so make an informed decision.

If he had made us perfect then we couldn't have made the wrong decision, could we? Perfect things don't make mistakes. That's an obvious contradiction.
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The thing about Adam and Eve is they made an informed decision. The woman clearly shows she knows not to the eat the fruit because they will die. Satan, has been using the same wiles on people since the dawn of time.

Fiction.
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Me. personally, I believe God.  He has given us life and the means to maintain it. Satan tries to steal anything God gives us.

Belief.
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But as Job points out, if God give us something good we are thankful but when anything bad comes along we blame him.
Satan clearly the accuser and instigator who lost his seat of power of Christians.

Well, apart from the fact that all that is fiction, it's just the same stuff all over again. If he had 'created' his angels to be perfect, then Lucifer wouldn't have fallen, would he? Ergo, God did a bad job in creating him.
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The truth is we will always have the poor because everyone is too afraid to be without.

Put another way, there will always be poor people because the rest take more than their fair share.
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So unless everyone is of the same mind it cannot happen.
Hence why we have the poor.

Quite.
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I give monthly, also to NSPCC and the Red Cross plus other charities like water for life.

I commend you for that.
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I give what I can to others too, whether it is buying someone a weeks groceries, paying bills or rent/mortgage to ensure their home is safe and their children fed.

That is excellent, Lynne, and I admit that it is more than I do.  
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Not from the wealth of the World but the Lord God who gives me the ability and the knowledge and love to use what he has given me for the welfare of others.

You do it because you think it is the right thing to do.
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My eyes are firmly open to the truth that there is one God and that Satan uses everything evil to drive wedges between us and God.

Fiction.
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Who knows what tomorrow will bring but God. The good things are all Gods creation and the bad things that happen are all the doing of the devil.

Well, if God created the imperfect angel, as you claim, he is to blame for everything, isn't he? Simple logic.

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As, a child, I could clearly see the bad things came from Satan and the Good things came from God. Sshhhh don't let everyone know

Belief.
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....But Satan and his  main ace is always to do the bad things and let God take the blame for it... :wink:  

Fiction.  Smilie_PDT
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Judders Lady...
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Joined: 31 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well Hullo (((Leonard))),
Leonard James wrote:
Hello again Lynne,
Judders Lady... wrote:
God created us perfect but free will must be the right to choose so make an informed decision.

If he had made us perfect then we couldn't have made the wrong decision, could we? Perfect things don't make mistakes. That's an obvious contradiction.


What is the definition of 'free will'
It is the ability to choose that which we will.
To do that we must and require choices. Without choices there is no such thing as free will.

The power to have a choice comes from the choices being available.
Do third world countries choose not to eat or does the fact there is no food mean they have no choice but not to eat. So there is no choice, they do not eat because there is no food. No choice to make and so no free will to choose.

The decisions we make do not reflect our ability to be perfect in that we have free will. Free will is not perfect because it is not robotic in that we can make the wrong choice. So our free will is perfect in that it can choose either good or bad. But that choice can be made in the knowledge of what is right and wrong.

Since Adam man has always know what is right and wrong.
They use their will knowing the difference and our laws show we do.
There are some matters not so clear cut.
But we do have a perfect free will, we just have the tendency to make the wrong decision sometimes. Albeit, a knowing decision of what is right and wrong in every situation. Some decisions are not reflected as good or bad. So yes our free will is perfect just our choices made, are not.


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The thing about Adam and Eve is they made an informed decision. The woman clearly shows she knows not to the eat the fruit because they will die. Satan, has been using the same wiles on people since the dawn of time.

Fiction.



Says who? What about your 'free will' made that decision for you?
It is a good decision or a bad decision? How can you tell?

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Me. personally, I believe God.  He has given us life and the means to maintain it. Satan tries to steal anything God gives us.

Belief.


It is a choice based on the truth God has given us.
Why disbelieve God?

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But as Job points out, if God give us something good we are thankful but when anything bad comes along we blame him.
Satan clearly the accuser and instigator who lost his seat of power of Christians.

Well, apart from the fact that all that is fiction, it's just the same stuff all over again. If he had 'created' his angels to be perfect, then Lucifer wouldn't have fallen, would he? Ergo, God did a bad job in creating him.


He created them with a perfect 'free will'. They already knew right and wrong so Satan used his free will to make an informed choice.
Surely, you cannot say 'free will' should be removed and we made robots so we cannot choose to disobey?
God did a perfect Job. Man just ignored what he was told just as men do today. They ignore the warnings of what is good and bad.

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The truth is we will always have the poor because everyone is too afraid to be without.

Put another way, there will always be poor people because the rest take more than their fair share.


That is not true, we are all born where we are. Each must give accordingly, wherever we are. You and I, both do this, so how can we take more than our fair share if we give to others?

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So unless everyone is of the same mind it cannot happen.
Hence why we have the poor.

Quite.
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I give monthly, also to NSPCC and the Red Cross plus other charities like water for life.

I commend you for that.


I do it because I care, just as you do. To you and I, it is not a big deal. It is very little, really.:(  We hardly touch the surface.


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I give what I can to others too, whether it is buying someone a weeks groceries, paying bills or rent/mortgage to ensure their home is safe and their children fed.

That is excellent, Lynne, and I admit that it is more than I do.



It, is more a case where God has put us and what he wants us to do for others. Apart from family and close friends, I really don't make a habit of divulging these things. My family and friends, know of my help which I have given them. But I ask them to keep things to themselves. It allows me to help those who really need it, that is when I am financially able to.  Because it is really all about having the funds when needed.

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Not from the wealth of the World but the Lord God who gives me the ability and the knowledge and love to use what he has given me for the welfare of others.

You do it because you think it is the right thing to do.


I do it because I care.... simple really.


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My eyes are firmly open to the truth that there is one God and that Satan uses everything evil to drive wedges between us and God.

Fiction.


I know it sounds silly, but I am regretting mentioning the things I do for others. Why? because the things I do are because of my love for the Lord and more importantly his selfless love for me.
There are few things I find important in my life. I have not love of money or material possesions, but I do have a genuine and sincere love of other human beings. Life, has not been so easy for me, but I do try and help others from going through anything that I can stop them suffering with.
Sometimes it is easier to deal with our own pains by helping others with theirs.



Quote:

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Who knows what tomorrow will bring but God. The good things are all Gods creation and the bad things that happen are all the doing of the devil.

Well, if God created the imperfect angel, as you claim, he is to blame for everything, isn't he? Simple logic.


It isn't logic it is deception, simple and plain.
God never made anything imperfect. Perfect free will allows us to choose between evil and good. God created Adam not to know good and evil, so technically he could not do evil. But he did tell him why he could not eat from the tree of knowledge but gave the tree of life to be eaten from freely.
Adam had wisdom and understanding, he chose to ignore what he was told. He made the choice to ignore what God who had been only good to him, said. I am telling you the same, you have a choice.
Good and bad, don't make the choice. You do and it is the knowledge you have when you decide which makes the choice either a bad one or a good one.

The law shows that we had a choice, the choice is bad based on whether that law is broken? What law does loving God and others. break?

Quote:


Quote:
As, a child, I could clearly see the bad things came from Satan and the Good things came from God. Sshhhh don't let everyone know

Belief.
Quote:


Solid in that it explains both God and Satan in a right understanding. Can you disprove these facts when looking at anything in the bible? God hides nothing in his word but his word shows clearly that Satan is the attacking force against man.
Quote:

....But Satan and his  main ace is always to do the bad things and let God take the blame for it... :wink:  

Fiction.  Smilie_PDT


What is fiction? The fact that you blame God for all the bad things in the world but his Word shows clearly Satan to be the father of lies and master deceiver and therefore the  real culprit?
I don't know about all the things men choose to believe with their free will. I made my choice and I believe what God is telling me.
We have to wait till God comes and all things are back in their rightful place before you will know for sure, I am telling the truth.

Love Lynne.xxx




Smilie_PDT
_________________
Beware of the Judderman my dear, when the moon is fat.  Psalm 101:5.Whoso privily slandereth his neighbour, him will I cut off: him that hath an high look and a proud heart will not I suffer.
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Leonard James
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's all very pretty stuff, Lynne, and if it makes you tick, then why not?  

I can only add that I prefer reality. :twisted:
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Judders Lady...
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leonard James wrote:
That's all very pretty stuff, Lynne, and if it makes you tick, then why not?  

I can only add that I prefer reality. :twisted:


That's right, avoid the issues you cannot answer. Smilie_PDT  

But, "I still love you", anyway.

Love Lynne.xxx Smilie_PDT
_________________
Beware of the Judderman my dear, when the moon is fat.  Psalm 101:5.Whoso privily slandereth his neighbour, him will I cut off: him that hath an high look and a proud heart will not I suffer.
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ceramic
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leonard James wrote:
ceramic wrote:
There is plenty of evidence to corroborate that claim.


Really? Do tell me what it is?


The Scripture
In the New Testament, Christ sends out His apostles to heal and to "cast out devils" (Matt. 10:8, Luke 10:17-20). Christ Himself often expels demons from the possessed (Mark 1:23-27; Luke 4:33-35, 9:43; Matt. 10:1; Mark 16:17; Matt. 7:22). The New Testament, however, rejects popular uses of magic incantations and rites to expel the satanic powers from people, because they take advantage of superstitious religiosity (Acts 19:13).

In the name of Christ, one is able to cast out demons and to destroy the evil powers (Matt. 10:8). The Fathers of the Church accepted this doctrine and expanded on it. Justin Martyr (Apology 85, 2) says that in the name of Christ, the Son of God who was crucified and rose again, every demon that is exorcised is defeated and submits (Library of the Greek Fathers and Church Writers, Athens: Apostolike Diakonia 1955, Vol. 3, pp. 288-89).

Satanic powers are destroyed through the power of the cross and the name of Christ. Objects possessed by demons, when exorcised in the name of the living God, are freed from the possession of evil. The patristic evidence is abundant in the belief in possession and expulsion of the devil by the power of the word of God (Ignatios, Epistles to Philippians 3 and 12; Library of the Greek Fathers and Church Writers, Vol. 2, pp. 333 and 336; Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 4:14; Library, Vol 8, p. 82; Origen, Against Celsus, 6:44; Library, Vol. 10, p. 93).

The demonic possession of individuals and even of objects, has been accepted by the Orthodox Church today in the Sacrament of Baptism, in exorcising satanic powers in the case of the evil eye (vaskania), and in exorcising the devil in the case of a possessed person.

This occurs daily at the island of Cephalonia at the church of Saint Gerasimos. None of these people are paid actors. Should you doubt the proof, I highly recommend that it is a place YOU DO visit and see with your own eyes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6ld8oXgSHc
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Leonard James
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry, Ceramic, I see nothing but histrionic nonsense; highly strung people letting their imaginations run away with them, probably prompted by the daft things they have been told or read.

That's all.
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ceramic
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinion"

- Leonardo
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Leonard James
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Joined: 19 Jan 2009
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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ceramic wrote:
"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinion"

- Leonardo

If that is true, it applies to everybody's opinion, so it makes no difference whether you have the confidence to use your own, or take the weak way out and adopt somebody else's ... they are all deceiving!  :twisted:



Last edited by Leonard James on Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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