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Yule Blessings
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Pukon_the_Treen
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Joined: 23 Oct 2008
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Location: Witch-cursed, legend-haunted Arkham

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:41 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

'Triumph of the Moon' was excellent, but I've not read 'Stations of the Sun' or The Rise and Fall of Merry England', though I have both of them.

My knowledge of Wicca and Neo-Paganism is virtually limited to 'Triumph of the Moon', though (like many people) I do find the idea of such an individualistic and organic approach religion / philosophy fascinating.
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Farmer Geddon
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Joined: 27 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lexilogio wrote:
Perhaps I should admit now that my knowledge of Paganism is limited in the extreme.

So if I make any howlers - apologies in advance, and please just point the error out!


Don't worry about it Lexi - Most Christians are ignorant about the reason for the season..



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Oak King (rtd)
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Joined: 15 Jan 2009
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Location: Llandeilo, West Wales

PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

admin. wrote:
Thanks Oak.

Apologies for any (entirely unintentional) howlers: I've read around paganism generally and Wicca a little so I'm dredging this up from the dusty corners of what passes for my brain, but am I right in thinking that as well as the Wheel of the Year, Wicca divides the year into two basic seasons, Summer (that corresponds to the usual spring and summer) and Winter (autumn and winter) and that the Oak King rules the former and the Holly King the latter? Though this may be Asatru/heathenry - it's been a while since I read up on this. I've read several books on Wicca and general paganism - Scott Cunningham and Vivianne Crowley spring to mind, though I don't know if they're considered reliable amongst real Wiccans. Ronald Huttons's Triumph of the Moon was a scholarly and rather dense read but enjoyable, as I recall: Stations of the Sun was even better.


I wouldn't so much say that we divide the year into summer and winter, it's more that we recognize the solstices as major turning points in the year, with the equinoxes further sub dividing the year. Curiously despite the significance of the quarter days, the solstices and equinoxes, they actually represent the lesser sabbats, the greater sabbats being the cross quarter days.
The Oak King/Holly King thing I believe was introduced into Wicca by Stewart Farrar who borrowed it from Robert Graves, it has managed to become a fairly standard piece of mythology for use in seasonal ritual.

Viv Crowley is pretty sound reading, at least in my opinion, although, as with everything that deals with modern pagan practice, it is unwise to quote her stuff as 'gospel'. Wicca is still a very, very, young religious path and consequently is in a constant state of flux. Scott Cunningham, hmmm, opinion on his stuff is extremely divided, some of themore dyed in the wool Wiccans decry him awfully, I don't think he's all that bad. Maybe he is a bit 'fluffy,' but for someone who wants a broad and basic understanding of modern wiccan practice his books are not bad primers,just don't expect to find anything of great depth in them. Ronald Hutton? Definately a big thumbs up on that score, heavy going at times but definately well worth taking the trouble to wade through.

BB H
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Judders Lady...
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oak King (rtd) wrote:
<<But Yule in the dictionary the English dictionary is shown to mean Christmas. So you are wishing everyone a Merry Christmas, really.  

What a lot of fuss about a simple post...>>

Have you forgotten that it was you who started 'the fuss'? Such a short memory. I think you might find that your dictionary definition of Yule is but one of many.


What fuss? I asked you a perfectly civil question expecting answers based on your knowledge. It was you who started to become uncivil.


Quote:
<<I see no reason for your last remark, (other than you by placing your post in other religions), did not realise that the dictionary definition gives Christmas as being the festival of Christs nativity 25th December...>>

Which is yet to come, Yule commenced on the 21st


Actually, Christ was born in October during the 7th month of the Hebrew Calender.  The Winter Solstice does not actually always occur on the 21st.
That is in astronomers terms.
Quote:


<<So really Oak King, according to the dictionary you are to all intents and purposes when celebrating 'Yule' celebrating Christmas which is also the celebration of Jesus Christ.>>

If it amuses you to think that, then I haveno problem with it. Easily amused aren't you.

BB H


That is easily disproved. Explain what would be  intellectually amusing
about it?

Seems you tend to believe in things that are mainly myth. You also create them too.

Love Judders Lady...
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Pukon_the_Treen
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Seems you tend to believe in things that are mainly myth. You also create them too.


Well yes; that's what all religions do.
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Judders Lady...
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pukon_the_Treen wrote:
Quote:
Seems you tend to believe in things that are mainly myth. You also create them too.


Well yes; that's what all religions do.


Tell me what the bible says you must do to know if what Christ says is true or not?

Because if you do not know and have not done it, then you cannot state it to be a myth...
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Beware of the Judderman my dear, when the moon is fat.  Psalm 101:5.Whoso privily slandereth his neighbour, him will I cut off: him that hath an high look and a proud heart will not I suffer.
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Pukon_the_Treen
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Tell me what the bible says you must do to know if what Christ says is true or not?

Because if you do not know and have not done it, then you cannot state it to be a myth...


Ah, I think I recognise this argument from somewhere … yes, if it isn't the old “I know I'm right and everyone else is wrong because I decide what The Truth ™ is” argument!

I didn't find that argument persuasive the last time you used it, or the other fifty odd times before that, so why should I find it persuasive now?
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Farmer Geddon
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simple answer is - believe what the church tells you about the christ.

Everything else is superfluous.. even an idiot can see that.
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Judders Lady...
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pukon_the_Treen wrote:
Quote:
Tell me what the bible says you must do to know if what Christ says is true or not?

Because if you do not know and have not done it, then you cannot state it to be a myth...


Ah, I think I recognise this argument from somewhere … yes, if it isn't the old “I know I'm right and everyone else is wrong because I decide what The Truth ™ is” argument!


I see the old ' I cannot answer  so will use the ' Only you have the Truth' argument which has absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand.
Which does show you to be unable to give an answer.


Quote:

I didn't find that argument persuasive the last time you used it, or the other fifty odd times before that, so why should I find it persuasive now?


Please tell us what the argument consists of and where it originated from.

It came from atheists who falsely accused me. Just as you do here.
This argument was clearly about YOU and your knowledge of the bible.
Quote:



Tell me what the bible says you must do to know if what Christ says is true or not?

Because if you do not know and have not done it, then you cannot state it to be a myth...


Absolutely NOTHING in there about me or the truth.
Just all about you and what the bible says...

Is it surprising you get it wrong and make false accusations?
No! You simply use it as a smoke screen to mask the fact you cannot answer the questions. Now everyone can see plainly that Puke_on_Treen does not know the bible...

Love JL.xx
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Beware of the Judderman my dear, when the moon is fat.  Psalm 101:5.Whoso privily slandereth his neighbour, him will I cut off: him that hath an high look and a proud heart will not I suffer.
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Pukon_the_Treen
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are insisting that unlike neo-paganism, Christianity is The Truth ™, not mythology, and you are basing that upon … your conviction that your interpretation of the bible is The Truth ™ and that you are right because the bible says you are right.

This is the same closed in, bigoted little circular argument you use pretty much every time you post something. It's rubbish.


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