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Idolatory?
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Judders Lady...
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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 8:40 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

Hi DaveB,



Dave B wrote:
Perhaps images, of any kind, are necessary for those who do not have an all consuming internal image of the object of their devotions?

Perhaps "obsessed with their own perception of the object" might be more appropriate.



I cannot answer for those who like these images.
Our church has statues through it, but I have no time for them.
The church I use to attend has a good vicar now. The Rev Geddes like the vicars before him has never had any images and just a plain cross on the altar. I prefer that.

Love Lynne.xx


_________________
Beware of the Judderman my dear, when the moon is fat.  Psalm 101:5.Whoso privily slandereth his neighbour, him will I cut off: him that hath an high look and a proud heart will not I suffer.
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Judders Lady...
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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Heretic wrote:
Lynne,

Quote:
You will find many excuses for having the idols. But... having said that: "they are not worshipped". Why have them at all?


We are all products of our environment, to many people these figures help create a good atmosphere for worship.

If they are useful in this respect - how can this be wrong?


Worship? A good atmosphere? I would ask how does disobeying God help a person worship in Spirit and *Truth*?

It is not about atmosphere but reality in the end.

Love Lynne.xx
_________________
Beware of the Judderman my dear, when the moon is fat.  Psalm 101:5.Whoso privily slandereth his neighbour, him will I cut off: him that hath an high look and a proud heart will not I suffer.
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Dave B
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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember seeing the wealth of icons in a monastery in Cyprus, but was not then aware enough to wonder why these saints should have almost as much reverence paid them, or so it seemed, as Jesus.

I can see some parallels in the idea of more abstract images, actual and mental, being used to invoke "states of mind". The mandalas of the Buddhists and the peaceful desert island scene, or whatever, that some psychotherapists use.

I once attended a course of "Practical Philosophy" that was well into the Upanishads and similar. We had a meditation session at the start of each evening to become fully aware of our bodies, the others present and our environment - sort of "grounding" us and helping us divest ourselves of the baggage of the day. Interesting.

So I suppose, though one does not consider oneself an idol (no, I will not indulge in the expected pun!) this was still a process of focussing ourselves for the discussion ahead.

Though "practical" was in the title I do not think "spiritual" would have been too far away either.
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. - Phillip K. Dick
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Judders Lady...
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi DaveB.

Dave B wrote:
I remember seeing the wealth of icons in a monastery in Cyprus, but was not then aware enough to wonder why these saints should have almost as much reverence paid them, or so it seemed, as Jesus.


When you got no miracles to show and no real faith, it helps to keep the locals happy when putting on a show.

Quote:
I can see some parallels in the idea of more abstract images, actual and mental, being used to invoke "states of mind". The mandalas of the Buddhists and the peaceful desert island scene, or whatever, that some psychotherapists use.


You mean like reciting mantras and religious chants?

Quote:

I once attended a course of "Practical Philosophy" that was well into the Upanishads and similar. We had a meditation session at the start of each evening to become fully aware of our bodies, the others present and our environment - sort of "grounding" us and helping us divest ourselves of the baggage of the day. Interesting.


When you meditated did they tell you to think up a word or phrase to chant to yourself?

Quote:

So I suppose, though one does not consider oneself an idol (no, I will not indulge in the expected pun!) this was still a process of focussing ourselves for the discussion ahead.

Though "practical" was in the title I do not think "spiritual" would have been too far away either.


Why was the discussion about you and each individual there?
I bet it was a long impractical night.  

Love Lynne.xx
_________________
Beware of the Judderman my dear, when the moon is fat.  Psalm 101:5.Whoso privily slandereth his neighbour, him will I cut off: him that hath an high look and a proud heart will not I suffer.
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Dave B
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One cannot truly know any other until one knows oneself. Self delusion means that all is delusion.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Worship? A good atmosphere? I would ask how does disobeying God help a person worship in Spirit and *Truth*?

It is not about atmosphere but reality in the end.
Sorry Lynne but I beg to differ.

If objects help us to achieve a state of meditative contemplation then that MUST be a good thing - THESE ARE NOT IDOLS any more than a cross is an idol. They are aids that can help some of us. If you don't find them useful you may ignore them.
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Judders Lady...
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't be sorry and please do not beg, We can always agree to disagree.


The Heretic wrote:
Quote:
Worship? A good atmosphere? I would ask how does disobeying God help a person worship in Spirit and *Truth*?

It is not about atmosphere but reality in the end.
Sorry Lynne but I beg to differ.

If objects help us to achieve a state of meditative contemplation then that MUST be a good thing - THESE ARE NOT IDOLS any more than a cross is an idol. They are aids that can help some of us. If you don't find them useful you may ignore them.



If, you have the Spirit, why do you need anything to help meditate or contemplate?  Does God not speak to you at all?

Love Lynne.xx  
_________________
Beware of the Judderman my dear, when the moon is fat.  Psalm 101:5.Whoso privily slandereth his neighbour, him will I cut off: him that hath an high look and a proud heart will not I suffer.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If, you have the Spirit, why do you need anything to help meditate or contemplate?  Does God not speak to you at all?
Hi Lynne,

Because the world is full of nasty distractions - I thing God is probably saying:

"Can you turn it down a bit!"

Why else have religious orders found communities in isolated locations for millenia.
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Judders Lady...
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Joined: 31 Mar 2009
Posts: 1817



PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Heretic wrote:
Quote:
If, you have the Spirit, why do you need anything to help meditate or contemplate?  Does God not speak to you at all?
Hi Lynne,

Because the world is full of nasty distractions - I thing God is probably saying:

"Can you turn it down a bit!"

Why else have religious orders found communities in isolated locations for millenia.



You think, you do not know if God is saying, "can you turn it down a bit?"
They have found locations in isolated areas for a number of reasons.
I believe it is because people do not know him or what he has taught that they went to search for him by going to isolated places.

But God has always said he is with us always, just as Jesus did.

He has always taught we do not have to go anywhere to find him because he is with us all the time wherever we go. I experienced this truth so I know it is real. Sometimes the hustle and bustle can become
very loud but the Lord can always be found in there.

Love JL.xx

Deuteronomy 30

11.For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

12.It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

13.Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

14.But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.



Psalm 139: 1-15.

1.O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me.

2.Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.

3.Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.

4.For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.

5.Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.

6.Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.

7.Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8.If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9.If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10.Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

11.If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.

12.Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

13.For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

14.I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15.My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

_________________
Beware of the Judderman my dear, when the moon is fat.  Psalm 101:5.Whoso privily slandereth his neighbour, him will I cut off: him that hath an high look and a proud heart will not I suffer.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I believe it is because people do not know him or what he has taught that they went to search for him by going to isolated places.
Hi Lynne,

you condemn an awful lot of religious folk throughout the ages.

Personally I think there is something special in the atmosphere of certain places, places where we can find beauty and tranquillity. I love the big Gothic churches of Spain, yes, even with their statues of saints.

In some areas they favour a depiction of Santa Maria (Mary) as Nuestra Seņora de los Dolores (Our Lady of sorrows). That is representing the suffering of the bereaved mother of Jesus and is clearly used as a focus of grief for all those suffering the pain of bereavement.

But there is no magic, no 'idolatry' - these things are just tools we can use to help us on our way - and one day who knows, we might all raise to your level of spirituality and not need such aids.  

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