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Atheism... is it based on human traits of brainwashing?
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Leonard James
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Joined: 19 Jan 2009
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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 7:05 am    Post subject:  Reply with quote

Samuel Vimes wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
     


Well played.

Hopefully next time you'll start with a better hand.  

I can't have a better hand than all the aces, even though I fall for diversionary tactics at times.  
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Pukon_the_Treen
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Location: Witch-cursed, legend-haunted Arkham

PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the subject of brainwashing, as I said earlier it just seems to have been a Cold War myth; it's not actually possible to alter people's behaviour and nature so drastically and easily.

Check this recent documentary out, The Brain: A Secret History -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/epis...in_A_Secret_History_Mind_Control/
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Leonard James
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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pukon_the_Treen wrote:
On the subject of brainwashing, as I said earlier it just seems to have been a Cold War myth; it's not actually possible to alter people's behaviour and nature so drastically and easily.

Check this recent documentary out, The Brain: A Secret History -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/epis...in_A_Secret_History_Mind_Control/

Morning Puke,

I can't watch the link because it's not available in Spain, but I'll find a torrent of it to download.

However, I can't agree with what you say. The glaring example of the Hitler regime shows that it works. He convinced millions of people that they were a superior race, with the consequent disastrous results.

"Nazi Indoctrination of an Absolutist Ideology and the Personality Cult of Adolf Hitler

National Socialism was perceived by its originators as a Weltanschauung [world view] and revolutionary movement. It claimed that German, "Aryan" people are bonded by their innermost disposition as a organic community, and thus at one with a political party which recognizes the intrinsic value of blood, personality, and soil which identifies them as a race. Hitler asserted that the National Socialist world view would stand in opposition to pacifistic international democracy in its effects and consequences. Culture, art, technology, productivity in general, and superior talent is race determined and based on racial attributes. That endeavor is race determined was claimed by the Nazis, a belief rapidly accepted by a majority of educated as well as formally uneducated Germans. In their propagated ideology, Hitler and his cohorts were successful in taking advantage of the people's frustrated expectations by persuading them to believe that the Great War was lost because they had been stabbed in the back by Jewish exploiters and that now Germany's existence was threatened by communists and social democrats. Further, it was claimed that the people were being ruined economically by war reparations imposed on them by the victorious Allies in the form of the Versaille Treaty, as well as other external, unfair, exploitative demands.

The core of National Socialism/Hitlerism was racial anti-Semitism. Hitler declared the Jewish religion to be the product of an inferior, subhuman race who were born genetic criminals. Jews were held responsible for all the evil, inequities and problems in German society. In contrast, Germans, Hitler declared, were a superior race of Aryans, a heroic master race. Anyone who felt defeated, inferior, down-trodden, and experiencing existential angst eagerly embraced such notions and accepted those who advocated them.

Hitler promised the people employment and the return to socio-economic well-being. He presented himself as a prophet and was so portrayed by his paladins and followers. He possessed charismatic appeal and was experienced by multitudes as a captivating orator who gave them hope and they willing submitted to his wishes and dictates. Joseph Goebbels and other Nazi leaders availed themselves of modern technology to spread Nazi ideological propaganda to reinforce Hitler's personal power and appeal. A personality cult was developed which made the people stand in awe of Hitler. Hitler was accepted as supreme leader who could not fail and do no wrong."


http://www.sonoma.edu/users/s/steiner/exhibit_hitler.htm

A charismatic leader proclaiming things that people want to hear can persuade them of many things which are not necessarily true. Jesus was such a person, and probably all the founders of other religions were, too.



EDIT. Have found a torrent of the programme on UKNOVA, and am downloading it now. Will let you know what I think when I've watched it.
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Leonard James
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Joined: 19 Jan 2009
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Location: Spain

PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Puke,

I have just watched the programme, and it seems that the small part  dealing with the sort of brainwashing we are talking about, merely shows that the effect wears off once the subject is removed from the conditioning environment. To me that seems perfectly logical ... our own ability to reason reasserts itself when not influenced by psychological pressures.

Furthermore it was dealing with enforced brainwashing, not voluntary submission which is the case with followers of religion. In my opinion, the constant meeting together and repetition of rituals and dogma as in religious practices are simply a voluntary exposure to indoctrination; but it is still indoctrination.

Psychological methods are clearly used in suggesting that anybody who doesn't believe God exists is a fool; and the carrot of eternal life and punishment of hell are two more very effective psychological ploys.

These things are quite obvious to me, but naturally are not accepted by believers.  
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Pukon_the_Treen
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Location: Witch-cursed, legend-haunted Arkham

PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lynne,

Quote:
without the Spirit there is no Church. Christ had to leave so the Spirit could come. When he came the Church was established because as Christ taught, the work could not take place till the Spirit had come upon the disciples.


I thought it was something like that, but it's still very confusing. Often it just seems to an outsider as though 'The Holy Spirit' is just a short and rather pretentious name for “that good feeling we get when we are all together, all sharing the same beliefs and taking part in the same activities”, making it just a kind of positive reinforcement and group hysteria. Similar sensations of ecstasy, elevation and power can be found at some of the more excitable political rallies, raves or rock concerts.

Quote:
Christ made this clear in the 10 virgins.


I've never understood that parable, apart from a general message of 'be prepared' (presumably for death or judgement day).
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Samuel Vimes
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leonard James wrote:
Samuel Vimes wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
     


Well played.

Hopefully next time you'll start with a better hand.  

I can't have a better hand than all the aces


That's true.

Unfortunately for you in this instance you were reduced to trying to bluff on a pair of deuces.  
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You did something because it had always been done, and the explanation was "but we've always done it this way." A million dead people can't have been wrong, can they?
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trentvoyager
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judders Lady... wrote:
trentvoyager wrote:
Judders Lady... wrote:
Just read the post again Trent.


trentvoyager wrote:
Quote:
Do you think I was not including myself when I said. "It isn't only you who are guilty of this. The whole world who leave the people in poverty are guilty of the same thing"? We all give but we never do anything to aradicate the disease and starvation by forcing our own governments to act and make it a thing of the past. Sorry you took it all personally, but you do nothing I do not do.


So Judders what exactly is your point - Leonard is the same as you because you both do nothing to "eradicate disease and starvation" soo tell me why your Christian position is superior or preferrable?


Read all the posts...again and it will explain why your post should not have been written.



I have Judders - and it still makes no difference to the assertion you posted - unless you are specifically excludong yourself from the bit where you say: "We all give be but we never do...."

If you holding your faith makes no difference to the outcome of people suffering disease and poverty tell me what is the point?

Perhaps you should re-read your posts before you actually hit the submit button.


No you still haven't got the point.
Re-read and tell me what Leonard could have done had he believed in Christ. Clue ... money could not have made the difference...


 


As usual - obfuscation  - you should have been a politician.

All you had to do was answer the question.
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Ketty
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Joined: 26 Aug 2008
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Location: Walking the narrow path, singing merrily and living Victoriously

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pukon_the_Treen wrote:

Quote:
Christ made this clear in the 10 virgins.


I've never understood that parable, apart from a general message of 'be prepared' (presumably for death or judgement day).


Puke, if you're interested, there's an easy explanation of the parable of the ten virgins [ur=http://www.gotquestions.org/parable-ten-virgins.htmll]HERE[/url]

It is about 'being prepared' at all times for Christ Jesus' return, it's also about the fact that none of us can be saved merely through association . . . just because we go to church or talk the talk.
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genghiscant
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Joined: 29 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Unfortunately for you in this instance you were reduced to trying to bluff on a pair of deuces.


Do you have evidence for this assertion?
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Samuel Vimes
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Joined: 18 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

genghiscant wrote:
Quote:
Unfortunately for you in this instance you were reduced to trying to bluff on a pair of deuces.


Do you have evidence for this assertion?


Yes. The evidence is the manner in which Leonard was made to squirm in this thread because his argument didn't stand up to any sort of scrutiny.  


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