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Satanic Cameos in the Bible
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Lexilogio
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:57 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

Thanks.

The Isiah reference seems to have more in common with Satan as the enemy representing the search for knowledge O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! The phrase "son of the morning" is what leads me to that - he is the son of the dawning of knowledge. However, I don't see this as backing up the idea that Satan was the serpent in Genesis, it's suggestive that Satan arose after Adam and Eve ate of the fruit - almost as if he came into being as a consequence.

These are just thoughts btw - I'm not an expert on this aspect.

I am familiar with Job - it is a book which I have spent many hours contemplating - and have discussed before.

In Chronicles, Satan appears to be the tempter - tempting David away from the path of God. In Zechariah, Satan appears again as the ever present tempter, who Joshua has resisted.
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Powwow
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Lexi,
I am a SOBP (son of a baptist preacher) so I will admit to a evangelical slant. Just wanted you to know where I come from. I'm no theologian. My calling is plants. Here is just my take on the serpent in Gen. Satan's rebellion against God occurs sometime after Gen.1:31, when everything in creation was good but before Gen. 3:1.
Adam's fall brought sin into every subsequent persons life.
Rom. 5:12
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Pukon_the_Treen
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pow wow,
Quote:

I believe Satan was confident in turning Job against God because he had been successful in corrupting Adam and Eve and He had led other angels in rebelling against God.


Except of course, this interpretation of Genesis isn't in the Old Testament at all, only the New, and the rebellion and war in heaven isn't biblical at all.

Quote:
Isaiah 14:12 starts How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
Just as God talked to Satan in His words to the serpent in Gen. God is speaking to the king of Babylon and to the Devil behind him in Isaiah 14:12-17


Again, you are tortuously forcing Jewish scripture to use it to confirm this later idea of Satan's character and nature. Without the references in the New Testament, there is no reason to suppose Isaiah 14 is anything to do with Satan; it's just another prophet slagging off the king of Babylon for his pride and corruption. The name 'Lucifer' became attached to Satan as a result of the implausible Christian interpretation of that verse; the Jews have never used that name for him.
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Last edited by Pukon_the_Treen on Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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Pukon_the_Treen
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Wikipedia:

The Talmud mentions the Satan in many places. In all of these places, the Satan is an agent of God, and has no independent existence. Sometimes the Satan is conflated with various demons, such as Asmodai. At times there is even some sympathy for him. Commenting on the Book of Job, the rabbis express sympathy that his job was to "break the barrel but not spill any wine."

In Kabbalistic literature and its derivative, Hasidic literature, the Satan is seen as an agent of God whose job is to tempt one into sin, and then turn around and accuse the sinner on high. An additional understanding of Satan is from a parable to a prostitute who is hired by the King (God) to tempt his son (a Jew). The prostitute has to do the best she can to tempt the son; but deep down she hopes the son will pass the test. Similarly, Kabbalistic/Hasidic thought sees the Satan in the same situation. His job is to tempt us as best he can, and then turn around and accuse us; deep down, however, he hopes we will resist his blandishments.
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Powwow
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pukon,
The title to your thread is Satanic Cameos in the Bible. Christians view the Old Testament through the New Testament so I'm going to use it. I get the feeling you have less respect for the new than the old but it is our Christian Bible. As Genesis came before Habakkuk, the OT came before the NT.
We are not given a detailed account of Satan's rebellion but we have some clues.
Matt.25:41 the devil and his angels
Rev.12:7-9 fighting of the dragon and his angels
Rev.12:4 his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to earth.
The stars refer to angels just as Lucifer is called a star in the OT
I don't believe a detailed account of Satan's fall is important. What is important is that Christians know the spiritual fight goes further than what we see with our eyes.
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Pukon_the_Treen
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pow wow,

It's not about respect, it's about the nature and purpose of myths and stories. In the Old Testament / Torah the character 'Satan' is an angel working according to God's will to test and accuse the Jews. There are only a few appearances, and he always seems to be performing this function.

In the New Testament, the character is more of a tempter and deceiver. He becomes referred to as 'The Devil', which is from the Greek 'diobolos' meaning slanderer. There is the shift; Satan 'the accuser', devil 'the slanderer', similar ideas, but with a very different emphasis.

As you say, he is mentioned as The Devil with angels in Matthew, in John there are a couple of mentions of the prince of this world being cast out, which may or may not be a reference to Satan, it certainly isn't explicit. Paul mentions the god of this world, and the prince of the power of the air (in 2 Corinthians and Ephesians respectively), but again; is he talking about Satan? It's pretty vague. It seems to kind of fit the bill, but mainly because our understanding Satan has been created from these passages, so obviously it's going to fit the bill. Then of course we have the alarmingly vivid (not to say garish) prophecy in the Book of Revelation, but lets face it, the symbolism, metaphor and allegory are so heavy and dense in that book, it could refer to almost anything.

So you have tried to make the ultimate evil; Prince of Darkness, Father of Lies, adversary to all of God's work, by taking a handful of rather ambiguous, vague and confusing snippets, rolled them all together with some frankly incomprehensible ravings from John the Divine, seasoned it with some scraps of Old Testament terminology and prophecy (most of which seem to be directed at various rulers that the Jews disapproved of), stuck that talking snake from the creation myth in, then tried to dress it all up as Satan, an angel obedient to God who had the thankless task of testing the faith of the Jews!

However, there is still very little biblical evidence support the popular idea of Lucifer, prince of hell, fallen angel, leader of a war in heaven; these are all non-biblical medieval / renaissance ideas, some taken from the Kabbalah, some from the Apocrypha, some just adapted from other bits of pagan myth that were kicking about. People adapted the character to perform a particular role that they felt was important. Of course the character is still important, apparently vitally important to many of the Evangelical / Charismatic / Pentecostalist fraternities, because they have made such a heavily and cartoonishly anthropomorphised version of God to be their combined best-buddy and stern-but-loving daddy, that they need an equally heavily and cartoonishly anthropomorphised version of evil, which they can blame for every rotten little thought and every piece of misfortune in their excitable little lives.

Naturally I don't think any version of Satan is 'real' because I think they are myths, but I am interested in the evolution of the character, as (presumably) he was adapted to perform different functions and serve different purposes within the religion and culture as a whole.
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Powwow
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pukon,
Yes I know you believe the Bible is a book of myth. And you show up on the Bible study thread to trash our scripture. I think your idea of a Bible study is a world apart from a Christians idea of a Bible study. Perhaps you are just here to shake a believers faith in God and their respect for His word. Nice.
Genesis, Satan as the serpent has quite a dialogue with Eve. Job, God and Satan have quite a debate. It's almost like you demand that Satan be mentioned in every chapter of every book. Our focus should be on God not Satan. So yes Pukon, one can take all that is mentioned about Satan in the Bible and get a good idea of who he is.
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Pukon_the_Treen
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A discussion like this is only upsetting and uncomfortable if you decide to make the scripture itself an object of veneration and worship. God tells you to avoid that kind of idolatry.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pukon,
Good grief man! I worship God and only God. I read and believe that the Bible is written by men under the inspiration of God.  To suggest believing the Bible to be the inspired word, is Bible worship, is either total ignorance or a bad attempt at some sort of joke. Since your a non-Christian I lean towards believing you're just a bit ignorant on the matter.
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BevIsHopeful
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pukon, continuing to read this thread, I did have one thought.  For me, at least, I took great notice in how Jesus often trumped Old Testament Law with what God actually means for his followers (those in covenant with Him.)  His lecture on "eye for an eye" is perhaps the best example of this.  (See Matthew 5:37-39)

In the same way, Jesus' encounters and words regarding Satan or demons would then trump any lack of such in the Old Testament.

But, then, I'm taking the New Testament as "gospel", little pun intended.  

Having said this, I do see Satan's biggest role even in the New Testament as that of the Tempter.  I remember doing a study of it once and found most references to Satan relating to man's temptation.

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