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What's an atheist ?
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Ketty
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Location: Walking the narrow path, singing merrily and living Victoriously

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:30 am    Post subject:  Reply with quote

Lexilogio wrote:


It's largely why philosophers never get much further than the dictionary and the pub.


Lexi, I think that will become one of my all time favourite quotes!  
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SusanDoris
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy

Seems to me that while you (or anyone) continue to consider God as anything other than fiction, you deny a part of yourself. Once you can take back to yourself (and other people) the credit/value/power/etc you ascribe to God, you ...... pause while I try and think of the right words! ......realise that you have been doing everything anyway, that there never has been this mystical God doing anything etc.

I think that there are so many words in the language too which continuously reinforce subliminally the beliefs. Words such as saint, sacred and holy carry the overtones of thousands of years of use.

Susan
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Andy
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Susan

Quote:
Seems to me that while you (or anyone) continue to consider God as anything other than fiction, you deny a part of yourself. Once you can take back to yourself (and other people) the credit/value/power/etc you ascribe to God, you ...... pause while I try and think of the right words! ......realise that you have been doing everything anyway, that there never has been this mystical God doing anything etc.


I think you might be making assumptions upon my behalf.

I understand what you say, and indeed that may be applicable to some, but I tend towards the more abstract notion of God, rather than the anthropomorphised version which I think you are aiming at here.

I would quite happily refer to God as fiction. Because the role of fiction is to articulate something in an imaginative or artistic fashion. The 'existence' of God is not an issue for me. Just as the existence of any collective understanding and it's impacts upon a society are not a problem for me. I can see why someone who is confined to believe that which they can demonstrate would be frustrated by this.

But for me it is less about limitations and more about the ability to welcome that which is outside my natural sphere of reference. It seems to me to be less two dimensional than the post enlightenment, western, logical and clinical rules impart. For me there is so much more to life than that which we can touch, or categorize, or dissemble, or reduce. I do not need to understand the refractive principles of light through a droplet of water to appreciate a rainbow. I do understand them, and that is an outcome of the culture within which I am raised, that same logical and clinical one. But that does not enhance my appreciation of the sight I behold. I just acknowledge the beauty of the vista for what it is.

Which is behind my semantic efforts earlier, because I can see a difference between those who say that there is no such thing as god because it simply is impossible, given their guidelines, and those who say it is possible but not true.

I think there is also an element of my rejection of rules and classifications to some extent if I am being honest. For example the rules of art, how can there be rules of art? A creative expression is surely something which has no rules, this might be represented by the biblical creation account, which is an act of will rather than adherence to established rules. Which, incidentally, theories like the Big Bang actually are. An attempt to classify and attempt to define the rules of creation. I know that the biblical creation account is not this, and as such it matters not whether it is demonstrably 'true' or not.
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IvyOwl
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I understand what you say, and indeed that may be applicable to some, but I tend towards the more abstract notion of God, rather than the anthropomorphised version which I think you are aiming at here.


And you in turn could be making assumptions on Susans behalf. Of course I can't speak for her only myself, Please don't assume that those of us who reject the notion of god need to anthropomorhise in order to do so. I'm more than capable of abstraction ...... just don't see a need for the notion of god.

IO
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Farmer Geddon
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed IVY.. I too Am more than capable of abstraction ...... just don't see a need for the notion of god...

But as for super girl...  Well this is not really an abstraction, more a distraction:

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Andy
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ivy/Farmer

I don't think I was guilty of assumption with regard to Susan's message.

She claimed I was crediting God with carrying out things which I actually did for myself. I responded that I didn't see God that way and hold a more abstract view.

I didn't say she couldn't, or indeed anyone else couldn't be capable of abstraction. I just inferred that she wasn't sharing my view of an abstract concept and was assuming I held an anthropomorphised view of God, who I felt had undertaken things as a human would. Which I don't.

However, this is a familiar position for some atheist I find, to hold a defined and anthropomorphising notion of God which is then easily dismissed.
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IvyOwl
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
However, this is a familiar position for some atheist I find, to hold a defined and anthropomorphising notion of God which is then easily dismissed.


Even more familiar to some theists.

You've not told me why you have to bring this notional god into anything ... especially as you are acknwledging that it is totally unknowable. What is the importance/necessity/point?

IO
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Grantus Maximus
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy wrote:
However, this is a familiar position for some atheist I find, to hold a defined and anthropomorphising notion of God which is then easily dismissed.


Hi Andy

I agree that the idea of the anthropomorphised God is the one that atheists tend to criticise. However, if you talk to the bulk of believers, the God that they believe in does tend to be that sort of God, at least in part.

I would suggest that the main reason we're able to discuss religion with you in a more relaxed and less antagonistic manner than some theists is because you have more of a philosophical approach to God - i.e. you're not making claims about reality that directly contradict our observations.

Cheers - GM
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Andy
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iVY

Quote:
Even more familiar to some theists.


Ain't that the truth.

Quote:
You've not told me why you have to bring this notional god into anything ... especially as you are acknowledging that it is totally unknowable. What is the importance/necessity/point?


I think it is a basic of humanity. It is an aspect of humanity to categorise a god thing. Even if only to dismiss it. A human psychological element of the anthropological march.

GM

Quote:
I agree that the idea of the anthropomorphised God is the one that atheists tend to criticise. However, if you talk to the bulk of believers, the God that they believe in does tend to be that sort of God, at least in part.


Perhaps that is the way they articulate the same thing. Or at least how they can self articulate. I tend to try not get too involved in an individuals understanding to the degree that all faith is bespoke to the individual, so an expression of it can only carry one so far.

I can no more dismiss a persons understanding of God than I can their understanding of the smell of an orange.
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IvyOwl
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Farmer Geddon wrote:
Agreed IVY.. I too Am more than capable of abstraction ...... just don't see a need for the notion of god...

But as for super girl...  Well this is not really an abstraction, more a distraction:



Yes poor girl .... looks like she could do with a good meal. Where will you take her?    

IO

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