nglreturns.myfreeforum.org Forum Index nglreturns.myfreeforum.org
Nglreturns is a forum to discuss religion, philosophy, ethics etc...

NGLReturns Daily Quiz - Play here!
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   Join! (free) Join! (free)
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 


Isaiah 53:
Page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... , 26, 27, 28  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    nglreturns.myfreeforum.org Forum Index -> Bible study
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
LeClerc
Senior Community Member


Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 2727



PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:20 am    Post subject:  Reply with quote

Morning Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
Well LeClerc
No matter how far I walk with you the concept of a Shaliach will it seems continue to go over your head, even the Pope understands as he parades as one, yet for all that I have said, and all that scripture has said, it still passes you by.  


bernard (hug)


Under Hebraic understanding it is impossible for Y'shua to be a Shaliach.

Mitzvot that are performed on one's own body, cannot be performed on one's own behalf by a Shaliach

It should also be noted that a Shaliach has his emissary status revoked by death.

The fact that Y'shua spent three days and three nights in the heart of the earth means that if he was a Shaliach it was terminated by his death.

A Shaliach cannot atone for anothers sins.

When Y'shua appeared to Thomas and the other disciples He could no longer be a Shaliach since He had tasted death was in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights.

These were Y'shua's words after His resurrection

Matthew 28
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Yeshua had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Yeshua came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Y'shua is what the scriptures teach, the Logos who is YHWH, made flesh.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word.

He could never have been a Shaliach.

LeClerc
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bnabernard
Senior Community Member


Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 2726



PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear LeClerc

I guess you know that you are grasping at straws regarding the Mitzvot, an emmissary in the nature of the one that sends him becomes the true representation of the one sending, he would be a special unique individual, a right hand man, often a begotten one in that they are chosen to inherit.

To lay claim regarding the Mitzvot the keeping and or carrying out of the laws where a man is not born of man but born of God into creation is simply to bring the emmisary/shaliach down to being under the authority of man, this would no doubt be acceptable, but debateable in the cases prophets that had been chosen from among mankind, however as the prophets from mankinmd carry out the will of God then they become subject to what God requires rather than man requires.
On this issue you will note no doubt and not need reminding, that at his encounter with John the Baptist a spirit in the appearance of a dove descended upon Yeshua while a voice from heavan announced ''today I have begotten thee'' .
How does it follow that the son of God is begotten at baptism one might ask oneself when he was begoten through the womb of Mary?
The answer lies in the nature of the beloved/only begotten in that from all that are begotten one is chosen, unique in inheritence, while it is normaly considered that the eldest son is the only begotten it is not unusual for another to be chosen and often the cuase of conflict between brothers but none the less an example for if a youger sibling is chosen and becomes the only begotten, as is exampled in scripture, that becomes the case and is irreversable.
Yeshua, living according to Gods laws as a man fulfills the laws that God has placed, not laws that man has placed, and at his baptism Yeshua is accepted and his begotten nature confirmed and set in stone.
He has proved true to his Father, he has preached of one God, he has not put his Father to the test, more besides but I don't think it neccessary

However you speak of death and in doing so determine that God the almighty can subject Himself to death and remain dead to be raised by Himself, doing this I am sure has your head entering some void of blank space as you contend with yourself over how the living God and giver of life becomes dead because if God dies then life dies and the living die also.
You may conjecture another form of death and we no doubt will have to discuss that as and when, though I believe I have covered it elswhere previously.

However I notice from your posts with JJ that you have some concern over the days that Yeshua spent in the bowels of the earth, or in the state of death, and contend that Yeshua was not confined in the tomb for three days and three nights, which does appear to be the case, I would no doubt be intrigued by any explanation that you have as to how long Yeshua was dead, and how many days he was in the tomb.

Quote:
“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me


Who was the one that gave authority to God YHWH in your understanding?

It would seem to me that under your understanding God YHWH has divided like a cell divides and become two identical cells, is this the nature that you see God, having now two Gods of equality of same substance  but seperate ?

Was it subsequent to this cell division that a new God evolved from the first, that the gods/sons of god heralded a new God YHWH into their midst giving him praise and jubilation?

bernard (hug)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bnabernard
Senior Community Member


Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 2726



PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honey 56 wrote:
bnabernard wrote:
Jhn 1:12   But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:  


Jhn 1:13   Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Bernard,
Now I am confused?
Is this part of scripture that you do believe?
You think it is ok to pick and mix, some parts you quote as proof texts and others you disregard?

How can you think this is ok?

Honey


Unfortunately it would seem you miss the whole concept of the new test that was put together by men who had not witnessed the son of God, what you have is a transliteration of what they believe was the message.
Hence the failure of the Jews to this day to form agreement on the new test.
While you speak of my cherry picking scripture, that is how scripture was compiled and what you have in your hands still is not what the likes of the vatican hold, men are delivered what is considered to be within their grasp while the hiierachy hang on to the meat/substance, they appoint themselves as Gods representatives on earth and accept the responsibility to nurse the sheep as they see fit.

Any individual who wants to take resposibility before God for his own actions puts themselves under the obligation to sift through the information available in the same way as those of the foundation of the christian faith did simply becuase there was pressure on those same to meet needs beyond what scripture delivered and that is the placation of authoritive roles of the time and their own considered protection of a faith where they could be a dominating force, hence an earlier reference to Thomas a becket who sought power through the church.

bernard (hug)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Farmer Geddon
Senior Community Member


Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Posts: 4107



PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honey 56 wrote:
Dear bernard,
Farmer does not profess to be a believer, on the other hand you do.
You think that Farmer and yourself know better than the Apostles and the inspired word of YHWH, absolutely fine, but please be aware that you are in danger of influencing others with your heretical beliefs which have no foundation in the scriptures, which all point to one thing, Yeshua is the only begotten Son of YHWH. He is God in the flesh (Immanuel)not a created being and He is the logos who was with YHWH in the beginning and YHWH was the Logos.

Here is some very good advice from The word of YHWH, you have already shown that you have no respect for it, but anyway........

15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.

Just because the scriptures do not agree with your personal belief does not make them wrong Bernard.

Honey


Whoa Whoa Whoa there Sherlock...

First of all; we have already gone over this...

But I will ask you again - Name me one of the gospel "apostles" who claims in their writings to have known, let alone met Jesus.

That what they wrote was from their personal experience of actually being there during his ministry.

Then I will believe them as speaking the 'truth'.

But I will tell you now; you won't be able to prove it to anyone in authority, because they know the truth.. which they have used to rub you up the wrong way with ever since before you were born.

There is also the FACT that the gospels were written by apostates to the Jewish Jesus' religion, unless you are trying to claim he was Roman all the time?

Everything claimed in the "gospels" is of Greek construct.

Which makes sense, because "Iesus" is just a Watered Down Greek God..


Last edited by Farmer Geddon on Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Farmer Geddon
Senior Community Member


Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Posts: 4107



PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bern - Sparra has as much knowledge of Jewish customs and history as your average spuggie...

It's why I Ignore his inane ramblings about Judaism - they are not even worth contesting.

In fact I doubt he has ever met a Jew, let alone learned Hebrew blah, blah, blah...

[S]He's an Idiot, first class....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LeClerc
Senior Community Member


Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 2727



PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morning Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
However I notice from your posts with JJ that you have some concern over the days that Yeshua spent in the bowels of the earth, or in the state of death, and contend that Yeshua was not confined in the tomb for three days and three nights, which does appear to be the case, I would no doubt be intrigued by any explanation that you have as to how long Yeshua was dead, and how many days he was in the tomb.
bernard (hug)


Then you misunderstand Bernie.

I believe Y'shua was three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. This was the sign Y'shua would give.

Matthew 12
39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

But sadly most teach this was not the case which presents a huge problem which most ignore.

I have posted a reply in this thread

http://nglreturns.myfreeforum.org/about3220.html

which is copied below

LeClerc wrote:
Hi Ketty

Ketty wrote:
Quote:
was He crucified on a Friday?


I'm bound to observe, in the greater scheme of things, does it really matter and what difference does it make to the Gospel message?


Upon it Ketty hangs the authenticity of The Messiah and the Gospel message

Matthew 16
3 and in the morning you say, ‘Storm today!’ because the sky is red and overcast. You know how to read the appearance of the sky, but you can’t read the signs of the times! 4 A wicked and adulterous generation is asking for a sign? It will certainly not be given a sign — except the sign of Yonah!” With that he left them and went off.

Luke 11
28 But he said, “Far more blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it!”
29 As the people crowded around him, Yeshua went on to say, “This generation is a wicked generation! It asks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it — except the sign of Yonah. 30 For just as Yonah became a sign to the people of Ninveh, so will the Son of Man be for this generation.
31 The Queen of the South will appear at the Judgment with the people of this generation and condemn them; for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Shlomo, and what is here now is greater than Shlomo. 32 The people of Ninveh will stand up at the Judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they turned to God from their sins when Yonah preached, and what is here now is greater than Yonah.


Matthew 12
39 He replied, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign? No! None will be given to it but the sign of the prophet Yonah. 40 For just as Yonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea-monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the depths of the earth. 41 The people of Ninveh will stand up at the Judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they turned from their sins to God when Yonah preached, but what is here now is greater than Yonah.

Messiah Y’shua says a sign will be given, the sign of Yonah (Jonah), and that sign will be that the Son of Man, Y’shua will be three days and three nights in the depths of the earth.

Turning to Genesis 1 verse 5
5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. So there was evening, and there was morning, one day.

The Hebrew for the light ‘’Day’’ is yowm and the Hebrew for the darkness ‘’Night’’ is layil, the period of darkness and light the evening and the morning make the one day also yowm.

Turning to Yonah 1
17 Now YHWH provided a huge fish to swallow Yonah, and Yonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

The Hebrew of day is again yowm and the Hebrew for night is layil.
It is clear from the above that Messiah said he would be in the depths of the earth three yowm which is three periods of light ie days and three layil which is three periods of darkness ie nights which together these make three days or 72 hours by modern understanding.

By teaching that Y’shua was crucified on a Friday and was raised from the dead on the Sunday, Israel and all the nations are being taught by most of the Christian assembly that Y’shua was a false prophet, since Friday to Sunday does not equate to three days and three nights in the depths of the earth therefore making the Gospel message null and void.

If we diligently search the scriptures we will learn the following.

1 Messiah was three days and three nights (72 hours) in the depths of the earth.
2 Messiah was raised from the dead after three days.
3 Messiah was raised from the dead on the third day.

All of the above three statements are true and can be proven from the scriptures authenticating the true Gospel message.

Messiah’s death, resurrection and first appearances took place during what is known as the sacrifice of YHWH’s Passover, The Feast of Unleavened bread and the First Fruits.

First Fruits is the day after the Seventh-day Sabbath which falls during the Week of Unleavened Bread. From this day, you are to count 50 days and 7 Sabbaths. The day you arrive at (also a first day of the week), will be Pentecost.

Messiah gave up His life on Passover day, the 14th of the first month in YHWH’s Sacred Calendar. He was laid in the tomb as the 14th day was coming to a close around sunset. This occurred in the year A.D. 31, in which Passover fell on a Wednesday. Many fail to consider the prophecy that the Messiah would be “cut off…in the midst of the week” (Dan. 9:26-27). Wednesday falls in the middle of the week—the very day upon which Passover fell in A.D. 31. According to the Roman calendar, this date was Wednesday, April 25.

The first day of the Feast of Unleavened bread would be on the 15th day of the first month.

Leviticus 23
5 “‘In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, between sundown and complete darkness, comes Pesach for YHWH. 6 On the fifteenth day of the same month is the festival of matzah; for seven days you are to eat matzah. 7 On the first day you are to have a holy convocation; don’t do any kind of ordinary work. 8 Bring an offering made by fire to YHWH for seven days. On the seventh day is a holy convocation; do not do any kind of ordinary work.’””

At this point keep in mind that the third day of the Feast of Unleavened bread would be on the weekly Sabbath the seventh day of the week the 17th day of the first month in the Hebrew calendar.

A Hebrew day begins at sunset therefore the first part of a Hebrew day is darkness, Night, and the second part of a Hebrew day is light Day together making one day.

Now the count, Y’shua, The promised Messiah, was in the gave

Thursday Night, darkness, the first part of Thurs day
Thursday Day, light, the second part of Thurs day

Friday Night, darkness, the first part of Fri day
Friday Day, light, the second part of Fri day

Saturday weekly Sabbath Night, darkness, the first part of Satur day
Saturday weekly Sabbath Day, light, the second part of Satur day

Messiah was raised from the dead just at sunset on Saturday the weekly Sabbath.

That equates to three full days and three full nights in the grave.

After three days since he was buried just before sunset and was raised at sunset this may only be by a few minutes but it is still after three days.

And

On the Third day, The Third day of The Feast of Unleavened Bread, which this year was a weekly Sabbath, and which was about to draw to a close at sunset.

The next day, the first day of the week, Sunday according to our calendar, was the day of First Fruits when Messiah appeared to His disciples and returned to His Father before appearing many times over the next forty days.

However we have a problem with the above because turning the Matthew’s Gospel Chapter 26 we read

Matthew 26
17 On the first day for matzah, the talmidim came to Yeshua and asked, “Where do you want us to prepare your Seder?” 18 “Go into the city, to so-and-so,” he replied, “and tell him that the Rabbi says, ‘My time is near, my talmidim and I are celebrating Pesach at your house.’” 19 The talmidim did as Yeshua directed and prepared the Seder.

However Mark clarifies Matthew’s writing

Mark 14
12 On the first day for matzah, when they slaughtered the lamb for Pesach, Yeshua’s talmidim asked him, “Where do you want us to go and prepare your Seder?”

And is confirmed by Luke

Luke 22
7 Then came the day of matzah, on which the Passover lamb had to be killed.

Passover, called Preparation day, lasts one day. The Feast of Unleavened Bread lasts seven days making eight days in total. Matthew, when referring to the first of Unleavened is in fact referring to the first of eight days not the First Day of The Feast of Unleavened Bread which starts on the fifteen day of the first month.

The New Unger's Bible Dictionary says that the Preparation Day for the Passover was from the evening (end) of Nisan 13 until the evening (end) of Nisan 14 (p. 411). E.W. Bullinger, in Appendix 156 to The Companion Bible, states: "Wednesday, Nisan 14th (commencing on Tuesday at sunset), was 'the preparation day', on which the crucifixion took place" (p. 180).

When we arrive at a correct understanding of what Matthew is saying, an understanding of the remaining follows..

Y’shua was crucified in the middle of a Hebrew week, Wednesday our calendar, and was raised from the dead at the very end of the weekly Sabbath, our Saturday. This means Y’shua is who He claimed to be, Israel’s Messiah, since He fulfilled exactly the sign of Yonah (Jonah).

For those who say what does it matter, it matters to the Lost sheep of Israel, because by proclaiming a Friday crucifixion and a Sunday resurrection many Christian assemblies are proclaiming that Y’shua failed to fulfil the sign He promised too, the sign of Yonah (Jonah), and therefore cannot be Israel’s Messiah.

This has been largely done out of ignorance, however once presented with a Wednesday crucifixion and a Sabbath resurrection those who now accept this as the truth are faced with a dilemma.

How can they continue be part of a local assembly which now proclaims what is now known to be a lie and in many cases is hindering the Lost Sheep of Israel from seeing their promised Messiah.

Only by drawing close to Our Father YHWH in prayer can we have an answer to this question and peace in our hearts.

LeClerc.


Now Bernie

bnabernard wrote:

I guess you know that you are grasping at straws regarding the Mitzvot,


I suggest you read the links which you posted.

The truth Bernie

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word.

LeClerc


Last edited by LeClerc on Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bnabernard
Senior Community Member


Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 2726



PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eze 8:6   He said furthermore unto me, Son of man, seest thou what they do? [even] the great abominations that the house of Israel committeth here, that I should go far off from my sanctuary? but turn thee yet again, [and] thou shalt see greater abominations.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Eze&c=8&t=KJV#3

bernard (hug)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LeClerc
Senior Community Member


Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 2727



PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eze 8
1 And it came to pass in the sixth year, in the sixth [month], in the fifth [day] of the month, [as] I sat in mine house, and the elders of Judah sat before me, that the hand of the Lord YHWH fell there upon me.

Did this hand belong to Adonay, the Almighty God or another god ?

LeClerc
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bnabernard
Senior Community Member


Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 2726



PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rom 8:34   Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.  

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rom&c=8&v=32#32

Mar 12:6   Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son.  

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mar&c=12&v=6#6

And so the tale goes on

Jhn 3:16   For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=3&v=16#16

Jhn 3:21   But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.  

Jhn 1:18   No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].  

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jhn&c=1&v=18#18

1Jo 4:14   And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world.  


1Jo 4:15   Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Jo&c=4&v=14#14

bernard (hug)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Farmer Geddon
Senior Community Member


Joined: 27 Aug 2008
Posts: 4107



PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's do a test.

Hands up those who think the books of Isaiah were written by one bloke all at the same time?

Who here knows that the books of Isaiah are a composite work by authors now known as I Isaiah and II Isaiah, whose lives and experiences were separated by many decades, if not centuries, with a bit of a gap in between??

And let's not forget the verb tenses in Isaiah 53.  

They do not indicate that someone will come along at a later time and suffer in the future.  

They are talking about past suffering.  

The Servant had already suffered – although he “will be” vindicated, so is not about a future suffering messiah.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    nglreturns.myfreeforum.org Forum Index -> Bible study All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... , 26, 27, 28  Next
Page 27 of 28

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Card File  Gallery  Forum Archive
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Create your own free forum | Buy a domain to use with your forum