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'Flawed' humanity.
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cyberman
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:34 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

Leonard James wrote:
cyberman wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
I was taking the implied understanding of the word in Lexi's post, which I took to mean antisocial activity.

In which case the answer to your question is no. All existing 'flaws' must have given an evolutionary advantage in the environment in which they appeared, or they wouldn't have been preserved and perpetuated.


So do you think racism and homophobia are advantageous?

Racism is a form of tribal warfare, so in the past it would have been an advantageous trait. If a tribe didn't defend itself it would have gone under. Homophobia, too, probably contributed towards the procreative ability of a tribe ... it would have caused gay men to marry and produce offspring to feign normality.

Just suggestions.


Ah, the old right-wing myth that racism is natural. No - it is advantageous to foster harmonious relations with neighbouring tribes. It is good for the gene pool and creates better defence against hostile forces. Having an automatic unfounded hostility to members of other tribes does not convey any advantage at all.
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Leonard James
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cyberman wrote:

Ah, the old right-wing myth that racism is natural.

I am VERY far from being right wing, I do assure you. Wealth should be shared, not hogged. Such an idea is anathema to right-wingers.
Quote:
No - it is advantageous to foster harmonious relations with neighbouring tribes. It is good for the gene pool and creates better defence against hostile forces.

That only came when man became intelligent enough to realise it. He is still not intelligent enough to realise that we are all one tribe. The only hostile forces could be alien ones.
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Having an automatic unfounded hostility to members of other tribes does not convey any advantage at all.

It did once, and you can't eradicate instincts overnight.
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cyberman
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leonard James wrote:
Quote:
No - it is advantageous to foster harmonious relations with neighbouring tribes. It is good for the gene pool and creates better defence against hostile forces.

That only came when man became intelligent enough to realise it..


No, that is not how evolution works. If a trait is advantageous, then natural selection causes it to become widespread whether the creature concerned is aware of it or not. A wide gene pool is advantageous for humans, squids and foxes whether they understand genetics or not.
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Leonard James
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cyberman wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
Quote:
No - it is advantageous to foster harmonious relations with neighbouring tribes. It is good for the gene pool and creates better defence against hostile forces.

That only came when man became intelligent enough to realise it..


No, that is not how evolution works. If a trait is advantageous, then natural selection causes it to become widespread whether the creature concerned is aware of it or not. A wide gene pool is advantageous for humans, squids and foxes whether they understand genetics or not.

Humans are primates, and the natural primate instinct is to defend its territory from other groups of primates. Sharing territory could only have come about by tribal cooperation, which demands intercommunication and intelligence.
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Shrub Dweller
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:16 pm    Post subject: Re: 'Flawed' humanity. Reply with quote

Lexilogio wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
This derives from a post by Lexi in the Sainthood thread, which I didn't want to derail.

Hi Lexi,
Lexilogio wrote:
Quote:
I don't really get the saint thing either.

Logically - if there are saints - then I can appreciate that there may be some around now. But I take the view that all humans are flawed individuals.


That's because of your religious indoctrination to believe so.


Actually, no. Sorry.

My statement that all humans are flawed comes from psychology research, eg James Reason and the science of human error.

It is part of the way the brain works in reasoning. To save time, our brains lump things together and make assumptions and jumps. Those assumptions can frequently be wrong - but we are also remarkable at identifying the errors and correcting them (70% of the time).

I really recommend reading Human Error. It's a fascinating book.
Other authors worth reading in this field include Rasmussen, Allwood and Montgomery, Barrs, Baddeley, Nooteboom, Embrey, Fromkin...

Of course most of the research has been based on linguistic errors, but there is a growing volume which looks at other forms of errors, particularly in the field of organisational accidents, Sidney Dekker, for example.

Yes, in this regard we are flawed and it has been shown that our reasoning powers are prone to errors; coming up with some less than water tight conclusions, mainly due to things like confirmation bias. However, it should be born in mind that many of these errors take place in our highly intellectual and rational modern approaches, were in fact evolution has given us a brain, for the most part, geared for survival in the "jungle".
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Shrub Dweller
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cyberman wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
cyberman wrote:
Leonard James wrote:
I was taking the implied understanding of the word in Lexi's post, which I took to mean antisocial activity.

In which case the answer to your question is no. All existing 'flaws' must have given an evolutionary advantage in the environment in which they appeared, or they wouldn't have been preserved and perpetuated.


So do you think racism and homophobia are advantageous?

Racism is a form of tribal warfare, so in the past it would have been an advantageous trait. If a tribe didn't defend itself it would have gone under. Homophobia, too, probably contributed towards the procreative ability of a tribe ... it would have caused gay men to marry and produce offspring to feign normality.

Just suggestions.


Ah, the old right-wing myth that racism is natural. No - it is advantageous to foster harmonious relations with neighbouring tribes. It is good for the gene pool and creates better defence against hostile forces. Having an automatic unfounded hostility to members of other tribes does not convey any advantage at all.

It does if they are trying to nick your women.

Are you saying that mankind has always been rational and logical. You/they fight because that is the way you/they feel. If resources are short you make sure the other side doesn't take it all. The survival of your kin comes first.
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splashscuba
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="cyberman:63220"]
Leonard James wrote:

No, that is not how evolution works. If a trait is advantageous, then natural selection causes it to become widespread whether the creature concerned is aware of it or not. A wide gene pool is advantageous for humans, squids and foxes whether they understand genetics or not.

Actually not all traits need to be advantageous to survive. As long as they don't give a disadvantage, then a trait can breed through.
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Leonard James
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="splashscuba:63250"]
cyberman wrote:
Leonard James wrote:

No, that is not how evolution works. If a trait is advantageous, then natural selection causes it to become widespread whether the creature concerned is aware of it or not. A wide gene pool is advantageous for humans, squids and foxes whether they understand genetics or not.

Actually not all traits need to be advantageous to survive. As long as they don't give a disadvantage, then a trait can breed through.

It was actually Cyber who wrote that, not me ... and of course what you say is correct. I didn't want to cloud the issue by broaching the subject, as I was more concerned that Cyber became aware that group rivalry over territory was the normal instinct for primates.
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cyberman
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shrub Dweller wrote:
cyberman wrote:
Having an automatic unfounded hostility to members of other tribes does not convey any advantage at all.

It does if they are trying to nick your women.


Well, if they are trying to nick your women, it isnít unfounded is it, dufus?

Shrub Dweller wrote:
Are you saying that mankind has always been rational and logical


No, I am not saying that.
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Boss Cat
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could the ability to reason and be logical be part of being human?

I don't know or anything, just a question.

I think of the Adam and Eve myth as being about the ability to make rational choices between good and evil being essentially human.

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