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The Lord's Prayer.
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Jim
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:08 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

Cyberman;
I'm aware that the Ethiopian Orthodox and Coptic Churches accept the Didache as canonical.
Doesn't the R.C Church, along with some Reformed denominations accept it as deuterocanonical?
I know I use it sometimes in my daily devotion, though it is deemed as 'not suitable for public reading' in the CofS.
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cyberman
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the RC church, when we say the prayer in daily life, when end at "..deliver us from evil. Amen."

At mass, we also end it there, but then (after another prayer is said by the priest) we do add the doxology. In an English mass we say the prayer itself in Shakespearey King Jamesy English, and the doxology in Modern English. (When I say "English" I mean the language, I don't mean in England).
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richie
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:00 am    Post subject: Re: The Lord's Prayer. Reply with quote

Jim wrote:
We've prayed it, read it, maybe even got fed up listening to it, but the 'Lord's Prayer' has become embedded in Christian culture.
Though parts of what we call the Lord's Prayer are found in the Gospels, the complete version is only found in the Didache, or "Teaching of the Twelve Apostles", once part of the N.T canon, but removed on the grounds of dubious authorship.


I've never heard that before. I know that there are more than a few books which have been redacted out of the NT over the years for various political reasons (and if you're honest you'd admit that its rarely purely on religous grounds).

However, I didn't realise that there was a fuller version of the Lords Prayer out there somewhere. Is this text online anywhere?

Quote:

There's one word that has always intrigued me: In the line "give us this day our daily bread", in the original Koine, the word the KJV translates as "daily", is 'epiousios- a curious word which actually translates (approximately) as tomorrow.
"Give us today our tomorrow bread" - or "Give us today our bread for tomorrow" puts a whole new slant on things, doesn't it?


Thats the thing with translations though. Some words rarely move between languages intact and what I would find more important would be what would "epiousios" mean to a 1st Century greek speaker. Would it mean "tomorrow" or "now". Yes we can find out the literal meaning of the word, but in many languages the understood meaning changes due to context so may not mean what we expect it to
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Jim
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:38 am    Post subject: Re: The Lord's Prayer. Reply with quote

Hi, Richie;
Try
www.paracletepress.com/didache.html
8:2, & 10:5 contain the two halves of what we now see as the "Lord's Prayer".
The whole book makes very interesting reading, though.
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richie
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheers Jim

Will have a gander
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richie
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have to say, for me, the most interesting section was "concerning baptism" which seemed, to me at least, to back up everything I ever thought on the subject (with the only difference being the infant aspect)

Found the English used a bit off if you know what I mean. The style didn't flow particulary for me
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Jim
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep.
I was more interested in the light it shed on the first and cecond century church life and practices. Most of the document was written at or araound the same time as the Revelation, i.e, 85-100AD, though there seem to have been a few late second century additions. I've heard of many Christian and quasi-Christian groups say they're trying to get back to 'first century Christianity'.
They appear never to have read the blueprint!
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Powwow
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At dad and mom's funerals we recited the Lord's Prayer just as it is written in my wonderful King James Bible.
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Truster
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Joined: 21 Oct 2013
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Location: Carmarthenshire

PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:21 am    Post subject: Re: The Lord's Prayer. Reply with quote

Jim wrote:
We've prayed it, read it, maybe even got fed up listening to it, but the 'Lord's Prayer' has become embedded in Christian culture.
Though parts of what we call the Lord's Prayer are found in the Gospels, the complete version is only found in the Didache, or "Teaching of the Twelve Apostles", once part of the N.T canon, but removed on the grounds of dubious authorship.

There's one word that has always intrigued me: In the line "give us this day our daily bread", in the original Koine, the word the KJV translates as "daily", is 'epiousios- a curious word which actually translates (approximately) as tomorrow.
"Give us today our tomorrow bread" - or "Give us today our bread for tomorrow" puts a whole new slant on things, doesn't it?


 ''Give us daily our subsistence bread'', is a more accurate translation.
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Jim
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Location: South West Scotland

PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 1:03 am    Post subject: Re: The Lord's Prayer. Reply with quote

Dunno what you're going to say, truster, but as far as the Didache goes, I find it, and other post canonical (but non-Gnostic) second century writings fascinating as an insight into the development of practice in the early Church.

As for the prayer we find in the Gospels, obviously the Lord never meant it to be prayed verbatim..."This is HOW", not "This is What".
However it is useful as an aid to prayer, even if sometimes we take the words for granted.
I use it as a model for my personal prayer time, as a structure round which I can form my own prayer.
(which is what, as far as I'm concerned, the Lord intended)


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