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Now if you want to make us atheists...
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Boss Cat
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:30 pm    Post subject: Now if you want to make us atheists...  Reply with quote

Not all atheists are republican and not all republicans are atheists; I know several atheist monarchists and four of the most committed republicans I have met are CofE vicars.

However, in my observation there is a kind of cross over, the subset of atheist republicans, seems quite sizeable.

And they both, sometimes, use similar tactics that I think are bound to fail.

Republicans will often say we, the people, should choose our own leader - Monarchy is outdated and undemocratic, let the people speak.  When it is pointed out that, at the moment at least, the Queen seems quite popular and most people don't seem to want her replaced, some republican can become quite insulting about ordinary people.   They describe the public as brainwashed into deference, needing to be educated to think for themselves to agree with them.  This treats the people with contempt. To do them credit some republicans notice this and want to distance themselves from this thinly disguised liberal metropolitan elitism.

I see similar with atheism.  Every Saturday, in town, we used to have an admittedly intrusively loud group of Christians with a massive sound system playing music and handing out invitations to their church.  Yes, they could be annoying but they were never rude or insulting to or about anyone.  In their place more recently was an atheist, a middle aged man,  Now he was quieter but his main argument seemed to be that he was cleverer than anyone else.  He put up a poster with two pictures of people at their worship, one from centuries ago, one modern with the slogan 'stupid then, stupid now'.

You get that on here, but only from some.  But there is sometimes direct insult, calling believers deluded or stupid or worse. More gently there is a pitying tone - 'some people seem to need to believe in something, Sometimes it's subtle  - 'there is not a shred of evidence...', the unstated inference being 'so the billions who find evidence are clearly dim; sometimes they use euphemisms - ' let's say misled...', the  inference being 'but no-one pulls the wool over MY eyes').

Is it effective though? wouldn't a stronger argument be, well an argument?  Do you think simple insults convince anyone?  They do convince some; people who don't want to seem thick, or who want to be part of the in group.  But are they really the people you want?

Are there any atheists on here who see this trend?  I know some who do, and hate it.
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Leonard James
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What you say, BC, is mostly true, and at times I am as guilty as anybody of such daft behaviour.

However, I think it is inevitable, given that many of us have such strong convictions about our beliefs. We all speak from personal experience which is by definition only applicable to oneself.

Those of us of a more scientific frame of mind tend to consider that believing something for which we see no evidence is to be deluded, but clearly the believer does see evidence, even though we discount it as a misinterpretation of experiences.

I try not to be too scathing, but confess that some posters present such cock-and-bull stories to justify Bible accounts that I am pushed over the edge. I apologise to anybody that I have offended in this manner, and will try harder to avoid repeating it.

The truth is that the whole subject of religious belief is so complicated that to try to unravel it and come to any other conclusion than WE DON'T REALLY KNOW is just a waste of time. It is just our cussedness that keeps us yapping on.
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Lexilogio
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But I have a scientific frame of mind, and am a believer.
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The Boyg
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lexilogio wrote:
But I have a scientific frame of mind, and am a believer.


Me too.

Looks like just another example of ridiculous prejudice against believers to me.  
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gone
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am an agnostic and support the Monarchy
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northernstar
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I admire the Queen but not the hangers on,  they say you can't choose family!! As for being atheist, that's me and would stay one, if the Christian god was proven , I might acknowledge it but I wouldn't worship it.
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Boss Cat
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was remarkably honest Leonard!  I think we all do something similar in private; when I have my daily rant at Today or my weekly rant at Question Time or something phrases like 'turnip headed  bilge', 'crud mongering tithead' or 'narcissistic arsehole' and such like come streaming out.   I am, however, aware that this is not a sound and critical analysis!

I am not scientific and am a believer, so I fit that stereotype, anyway.  But it is interesting what has happened; against all the evidence'scientific frame of mind' has become synonymous with atheist.  So perhaps this approach is successful.
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genghiscant
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You get that on here, but only from some.  But there is sometimes direct insult, calling believers deluded or stupid or worse. More gently there is a pitying tone - 'some people seem to need to believe in something, Sometimes it's subtle  - 'there is not a shred of evidence...', the unstated inference being 'so the billions who find evidence are clearly dim; sometimes they use euphemisms - ' let's say misled...', the  inference being 'but no-one pulls the wool over MY eyes').


Again I have to say that none of this is exclusive to atheists. Take the recent debate with JamesJah on another thread. The debaters are, for the most part, Christians. This hasn't stopped you calling both him & his sect "mistaken", "without a shred of evidence", "misunderstanding scripture" & using a pitying tones. I'm sure he feels insulted by some of the comments passed.

I'm pretty sure all of you think that Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, are mistaken in their views to the point of delusion. If it's delusion for them, why not you?
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Lexilogio
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

genghiscant wrote:
Quote:
You get that on here, but only from some.  But there is sometimes direct insult, calling believers deluded or stupid or worse. More gently there is a pitying tone - 'some people seem to need to believe in something, Sometimes it's subtle  - 'there is not a shred of evidence...', the unstated inference being 'so the billions who find evidence are clearly dim; sometimes they use euphemisms - ' let's say misled...', the  inference being 'but no-one pulls the wool over MY eyes').


Again I have to say that none of this is exclusive to atheists. Take the recent debate with JamesJah on another thread. The debaters are, for the most part, Christians. This hasn't stopped you calling both him & his sect "mistaken", "without a shred of evidence", "misunderstanding scripture" & using a pitying tones. I'm sure he feels insulted by some of the comments passed.

I'm pretty sure all of you think that Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, are mistaken in their views to the point of delusion. If it's delusion for them, why not you?


I think there is an element that is to do with the opening approach. Where it is critical of others, then the tendency is to respond in a like minded manner.
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Shaker
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lexilogio wrote:
But I have a scientific frame of mind, and am a believer.

Which one? Make your mind up  


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