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Matthew 12:40
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cyberman
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:38 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

rstrats wrote:
Since it has again been awhile, someone new looking in who thinks that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week and who tries to get around Matthew 12:40 by saying it is using common Jewish idiomatic language may know of some writing as requested in the OP.


When you say the 6th day, that would be Friday, no? The sabbath being the 7th day.
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rstrats
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cyberman,
re:  "I think the crucifixion occurred on a Friday."

If by Friday, you mean the 6th day of the week, do you explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language?


re:  "When you say the 6th day, that would be Friday, no?"

In the U.S., yes.   However, in much of Europe and other parts of the world the calendar labels the 5th day as Friday.
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cyberman
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rstrats wrote:
cyberman,
re:  "I think the crucifixion occurred on a Friday."

If by Friday, you mean the 6th day of the week, do you explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language?


re:  "When you say the 6th day, that would be Friday, no?"

In the U.S., yes.   However, in much of Europe and other parts of the world the calendar labels the 5th day as Friday.


As there is some confusion about which is the sixth day, let me clarify, I think the crucifixion occurred on a Friday, which is the day before the sabbath. That is to say, on a Friday afternoon it would have been a few hours before sunset, with that sunset then being the beginning of the Sabbath, the Sabbath being Saturday in the terminaology I am using.

That Matthew thing is the "Jonah" analogy, right? I certainly don't think Jesus was in the tomb for three nights. For the resurrection to occur on Sunday morning this would involve him being crucified on a Thursday. If he was crucified on a Thursday, what was all the day of preparation stuff about, and why wouldn't they have come to anoint the body on Friday morning?
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rstrats
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cyberman,
re:  "As there is some confusion about which is the sixth day..."

I'm not aware of any documentation that shows that the seven day cycle has been interrupted at anytime between the first century and today, so I don't see why there should be any confusion.  



re:  "I think the crucifixion occurred...the day before the sabbath.

So then you're saying that you think that the crucifixion occurred the 6th day of the week since the Sabbath is always the 7th day of the week.



re:  "That Matthew thing is the 'Jonah' analogy, right?"

That is correct.




re:  " I certainly don't think Jesus was in the tomb for three nights."

So if He wasn't, why do you think He said that it would be three nights if He knew that it was only going to be two nights?



re:  "For the resurrection to occur on Sunday morning this would involve him being crucified on a Thursday."

Indeed.  BTW, there is only one scripture that says that the resurrection took place on the first of the week (Mark 16:9) and even that one's authenticity is questioned by foot notes in a number of translations/versions.  




re:  " If he was crucified on a Thursday, what was all the day of preparation stuff about...?"

I assume you base that question on your thinking that the preparation day on which the crucifixion took place had to be the day before the weekly Sabbath. However, Rabbi Samuel Lacks states:  "The day of preparation (Greek 'paraskeue') equals Friday OR the day before a holiday" - [A Rabbinic Commentary of the New Testament]. Therefore, the preparation day mentioned in your references did not necessarily have to be referring to the 6th day but could have been referring to the preparation for the Passover which can fall on any day of the week.

Luke 23:56 says:  "And they [the women] returned [from the burial] and prepared spices and ointments and RESTED THE SABBATH DAY ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT." [my emphasis]

However, Mark 16:1 says:   "And when the SABBATH WAS PAST, Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Salome bought sweet spices that they might come and anoint Him." [my emphasis]

This would seem to suggest that two different Sabbaths would have to have been involved.  




re:  "..., and why wouldn't they have come to anoint the body on Friday morning?"

Perhaps because the 6th day was the Passover and that kind of work wasn't permitted.
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cyberman
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rstrats wrote:


I'm not aware of any documentation that shows that the seven day cycle has been interrupted at anytime between the first century and today, so I don't see why there should be any confusion.  

 


Well, I didn't think there was much scope for confusion, until you told me that there was (ie the different US and European usages)

rstrats wrote:



Luke 23:56 says:  "And they [the women] returned [from the burial] and prepared spices and ointments and RESTED THE SABBATH DAY ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT." [my emphasis]

However, Mark 16:1 says:   "And when the SABBATH WAS PAST, Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Salome bought sweet spices that they might come and anoint Him." [my emphasis]


I'm not sure why you think this means there were two sabbaths.

(1) Burial happens (Friday afternoon)
(2) They prepare the ointment and stuff (Friday afternoon, right after the burial)
(3) They think "the sabbath is about to begin - we'd better wait" (Friday afternoon, just before sunset)
(4) After the sabbath (early Sunday), they go to anoint the body, which of course they find gone.

Why did you think this refers to two different sabbaths?
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cyberman
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rstrats wrote:


So if He wasn't, why do you think He said that it would be three nights if He knew that it was only going to be two nights?.


Maybe he didn't know. Maybe he didn't mind that the analogy with Jonah didn't exactly match the number of nights.
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rstrats
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cyberman,  
re: "Well, I didn't think there was much scope for confusion, until you told me that there was (ie the different US and European usages)"

I should have been more specific by saying that I'm not aware of any documentation that shows that the seven day cycle has been interrupted at anytime between the first century and today in Israel.  



re:  "I'm not sure why you think this means there were two sabbaths."

Because Mark 16:1 says that they bought spices after the Sabbath was past.  But Luke 23:56 says that they prepared spices and then rested on the Sabbath.
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rstrats
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cyberman,  
re: "Maybe he didn't know. Maybe he didn't mind that the analogy with Jonah didn't exactly match the number of nights."


OK, but what is there in scripture that makes it necessary for you to not take the Messiah literally?
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cyberman
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rstrats wrote:
cyberman,  
re: "Maybe he didn't know. Maybe he didn't mind that the analogy with Jonah didn't exactly match the number of nights."


OK, but what is there in scripture that makes it necessary for you to not take the Messiah literally?


(a) I am curious about the "two sabbaths" thing which you haven't addressed

(b) There is nothing in Scripture to make me think that he would mind if the analogy wasn't spot on with the number of nights. Neither is there anything to make me think he was consciously omniscient during his earthly life.
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rstrats
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cyberman,
re:  "(a) I am curious about the 'two sabbaths' thing which you haven't addressed"

But I did.     With what part of my above comment  - "Mark 16:1 says that they bought spices after the Sabbath was past.  But Luke 23:56 says that they prepared spices and then rested on the Sabbath" - are you having a problem?


re:  "(b) There is nothing in Scripture to make me think that he would mind if the analogy wasn't spot on with the number of nights. Neither is there anything to make me think he was consciously omniscient during his earthly life."

But why question the 3 nights to begin with?  Something had to cause you to do that.

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