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Matthew 12:40
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cyberman
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Joined: 23 Mar 2011
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Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 1:45 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

rstrats wrote:
cyberman,
re:  "(a) I am curious about the 'two sabbaths' thing which you haven't addressed"

But I did.     With what part of my above comment  - "Mark 16:1 says that they bought spices after the Sabbath was past.  But Luke 23:56 says that they prepared spices and then rested on the Sabbath" - are you having a problem?

.


I already addressed that point. I don't kow why you think that preparing the ointments before the sabbath, resting on the sabbath, and then bringing the ointments to treat the body after the sabbath means that there are two sabbaths. Can you explain why you think it does?

Also can I politely ask you to modify your arsey attitude? It is possible to be civil to someon who disagrees with you.

rstrats wrote:
cyberman,

re:  "(b) There is nothing in Scripture to make me think that he would mind if the analogy wasn't spot on with the number of nights. Neither is there anything to make me think he was consciously omniscient during his earthly life."

But why question the 3 nights to begin with?  Something had to cause you to do that.


Yes. What gives me cause to do that is that the gospel accounts show Jesus to have been crucified on a Friday and found gone from the tomb on a Sunday.
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Ketty
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Location: Walking the narrow path, singing merrily and living Victoriously

PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How long was Jesus dead in the tomb?  gives a couple of possible explanations.
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LeClerc
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Joined: 31 May 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Cyberman

cyberman wrote:


I'm not sure why you think this means there were two sabbaths.

(1) Burial happens (Friday afternoon)
(2) They prepare the ointment and stuff (Friday afternoon, right after the burial)
(3) They think "the sabbath is about to begin - we'd better wait" (Friday afternoon, just before sunset)
(4) After the sabbath (early Sunday), they go to anoint the body, which of course they find gone.

Why did you think this refers to two different sabbaths?


Because as rstrats has already said how could they as you have stated in (2) above

cyberman wrote:

(2) They prepare the ointment and stuff (Friday afternoon, right after the burial)


prepared the ointment and stuff on Friday afternoon if, as according to the Messianic writings, they didn't purchase the ointment and stuff until after the Sabbath had passed ?

Mark 16 NLT
Saturday evening, when the Sabbath ended, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome went out and purchased burial spices so they could anoint Jesus’ body.

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LeClerc
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rstrats
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Joined: 15 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cyberman,
re:  " I already addressed that point. I don't kow why you think that preparing the ointments before the sabbath, resting on the sabbath, and then bringing the ointments to treat the body after the sabbath means that there are two sabbaths. Can you explain why you think it does?"

I can only repeat what I previously wrote:  "Mark 16:1 says that they bought spices after the Sabbath was past.  But Luke 23:56 says that they prepared spices and then rested on the Sabbath"  That suggests that 2 different Sabbaths were involved.   LeClerc also touched on that point.



re: "Also can I politely ask you to modify your arsey attitude?"

I have no reason to think that you can't.  



re:  " Yes. What gives me cause to do that [question the three nights] is that the gospel accounts show Jesus to have been crucified on a Friday and found gone from the tomb on a Sunday".

I'm not aware of any scripture that absolutely, no question about it shows that the Messiah had to have been crucified on the 6th day of the week.  What do you have in mind?
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cyberman
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rstrats wrote:



re: "Also can I politely ask you to modify your arsey attitude?"

I have no reason to think that you can't.  


Oh, fuck you
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rstrats
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps a further rewording of the OP will make it a bit more clear:   Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a "discussion" with 6th day of the week crucifixion folks, they frequently assert that it is using common Jewish idiomatic language.  I wonder if anyone knows of any writing that shows an example from the first century or before regarding a period of time that is said to consist of a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights where the period of time absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights?  

And remember, the purpose of this topic is not to discuss how long the Messiah was in the heart of the earth. There are other topics that do that.  However, as stated, there are those who say that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language such as the Messiah saying that He would be in the heart of the earth for 3 nights when He knew that it would only be for 2 nights.   But in order to say that it was common, one would have to know of other instances where the same pattern was used. I am simply looking for some of those instances, scriptural or otherwise. So far no one has come forth with any.
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LeClerc
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi rstrats

rstrats wrote:
Perhaps a further rewording of the OP will make it a bit more clear:   Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a "discussion" with 6th day of the week crucifixion folks, they frequently assert that it is using common Jewish idiomatic language.  I wonder if anyone knows of any writing that shows an example from the first century or before regarding a period of time that is said to consist of a specific number of days and/or a specific number of nights where the period of time absolutely couldn't have included at least a part of each one of the specific number of days and at least a part of each one of the specific number of nights?  

And remember, the purpose of this topic is not to discuss how long the Messiah was in the heart of the earth. There are other topics that do that.  However, as stated, there are those who say that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language such as the Messiah saying that He would be in the heart of the earth for 3 nights when He knew that it would only be for 2 nights.   But in order to say that it was common, one would have to know of other instances where the same pattern was used. I am simply looking for some of those instances, scriptural or otherwise. So far no one has come forth with any.


Maybe you could look at this link http://www.oocities.org/haqq_1/TALMUD-Shabbat-9-3.htm

This is taken from the Talmud Shabbat 9.3

Quote:
[H] It is whether spans serve to complete [the necessary period]. R. Ishmael treats part of a span as the whole of it, and R. Aqiba does not treat part of a span as the whole of it


As you can see there is no common agreement in the Talmud.

Hope this helps

Regards

LeClerc
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bnabernard
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The indwelling of the holy spirit seems to be a bit of a let down from what I can see, else?

bernard (hug)
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LeClerc
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bernie

bnabernard wrote:
The indwelling of the holy spirit seems to be a bit of a let down from what I can see, else?

bernard (hug)


Question Bernie.

Was the Talmud penned by those claiming to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit or was it penned by those in bondage to the traditions of men.

To expand if I may.

Whenever the three days and three nights of Matthew 12:40 is brought up in a "discussion" with 6th day of the week crucifixion folks, they frequently assert that it is using common Jewish idiomatic language.

Where does this supposed common Jewish idiomatic language originate ?

When one researches this, the answer is the Talmud, but further research reveals there is no such common Jewish idiomatic language in the Talmud just the very opposite.

The Talmud contains the Mishnah, the oral law, which the Messiah Y'shua refers to as'' the leaven of the Pharisees''.

The Pharisees are the spiritual Fathers of the Rabbis today. Are the Rabbis leading their flocks into the Kingdom of Heaven any more than the Pharisees and Scribes did back then? The teachings of the Rabbis are imbued with the spirit of anti-Christ much more so today than back in Messiah’s day, and if Y'shua was so adamant against Pharisaic teachings then, how much more so for us today? The word that Messiah spoke to His Apostles in the boat 2,000 years ago certainly applies to us today: ‘Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees!’ (Mt. 16:6)

Maybe many are unware, but those holding to a sixth day crucifixion and quoting common Jewish idiomatic language to support this are quoting from what Messiah refers to as the leaven of the Pharisees.

Regards

LeClerc
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bnabernard
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Joined: 25 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes we could focus on a point in time as you say or we could travel back further to the point when things started to fall apart post flood and ask what happened to the holy spirit and why.

With the Hebrews their spirit was Gods spirit and by this time there where other spirits, say for instance the Greek people, they where governed by the Greek spirit and so on and so forth.

You speak correctly, if I read you right, influence had taken charge and spirit of a foreign nature had twisted minds towards a different path, and warnings by Y'shua of false spirit entering into law where a thorny subject.

Patience of Job springs to mind when considering the subject.

However>

bernard (hug)

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