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Top five reasons that people abandon religion
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cyberman
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 12:25 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote

Number 3 seems to be simultaneously asserting that the religious are the poor, and that they are rich powerful exploiters.
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Shaker
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cyberman wrote:
The others are largely about the behaviour of believers - starting wars, being bigots, etc. I get that this can cause people to wish to distance themselves from faith organisations, but it doesn't seem a good reason to me. As I always say, I am a Catholic because of my beliefs about Christ, not because of my beliefs about Catholics.

Also, apart from the science one, they are to do with reasons for leaving a religion but not to do with reasons for ceasing theism.

That's why the list refers to people abandoning religion and not theism per se, since the two aren't coterminous. The evidence coming on these days from the USA in particular indicates that an ever increasing number of people are abandoning formal religious adherence and referring to themselves as "of no religion," rather than becoming atheists (though rates of declared atheism are rising as well).
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Shaker
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cyberman wrote:
Number 3 seems to be simultaneously asserting that the religious are the poor, and that they are rich powerful exploiters.

That's not so much generally true as true in a specific instance if you look at the USA. In any case I didn't read it like that: rather it was pointing out what the evidence already shows anyway which is that by and large, wherever you have high (and gradually increasing) material and personal security, financial stability, economic prosperity, health care, a welfare state and the rest of the things that go along with them (education; the empowerment of women and so forth), you have correspondingly lower rates of religious belief.
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Last edited by Shaker on Tue May 07, 2013 1:02 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Shaker
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boss Cat wrote:
It looks like a hackneyed rehashing of currently fashionable attitudes in some limited circles.  It looks a bit racist, not to say culturally imperialistic in some of its underlying values to be honest.


Oh noez!!!!!one!!!!one!! *pearls*
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cyberman
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shaker wrote:
Boss Cat wrote:
It looks like a hackneyed rehashing of currently fashionable attitudes in some limited circles.  It looks a bit racist, not to say culturally imperialistic in some of its underlying values to be honest.


Oh noez!!!!!one!!!!one!! *pearls*


What..?

I mean, ..erm...

What?
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Boss Cat
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think he means pearls before swine, well, I can't think what else he is getting at.

I think Shaker is suggesting that his post contains pearls of wisdom which are wasted on the likes of me.

Apologies if I have that wrong, Shaker.
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trentvoyager
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boss Cat wrote:
I think he means pearls before swine, well, I can't think what else he is getting at.

I think Shaker is suggesting that his post contains pearls of wisdom which are wasted on the likes of me.

Apologies if I have that wrong, Shaker.


Hmm....for some reason I thought he was making some obscure reference to knitting - but I have to admit it was a little opaque compared to shakers usual postings!
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Shaker
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boss Cat wrote:
I think he means pearls before swine, well, I can't think what else he is getting at.

I think Shaker is suggesting that his post contains pearls of wisdom which are wasted on the likes of me.

Apologies if I have that wrong, Shaker.

Yes, alas you do.

It was a reference to the phrase "pearl-clutching" which conjures up the image of an elderly twinsetted lady having an attack of the vapours and clutching her pearls at something considered dreadfully shocking - in this case, it was a sarcastic reference to the lazy and entirely unevidenced allegation that the link I provided:

Quote:
looks a bit racist, not to say culturally imperialistic in some of its underlying values to be honest.


To wit:


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Boss Cat
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's nice to know you DON'T think your pearls of wisdom are wasted on me (or do you?).

I'm quite old, I'm 54, though (without boasting) am often taken to be much younger.  I don't wear twin sets, although I'd like to but I'm not very smart really, I'm a bit of a slob.  I can't afford real pearls but I am wearing rather a nice necklace at the moment.

I would bet a pound to a penny that you aren't an elderly lady clutching at pearls either, and I don't think for one minute you are shocked or even surprised that anyone could think the values underpinning these five reasons are elitist.  

Your statements, linking sophisticated lifestyles with lower rates of religious belief, you don't give us the evidence.   Isn't that lazy? Is the evidence conclusive?  Does it take into account the nature of the beliefs?  Is it in all places at all times?

I think that's a pretty elitist view, that religion is confined to the culturally, economically, politically backward.  Not to mention the 'lunatic fringes'(?).  It writes off the experiences of most of the world's population - those who aren't part of the liberal metropolitan western elite.

Do you think atheists might have their own lunatic fringes?
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Shaker
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boss Cat wrote:
Your statements, linking sophisticated lifestyles with lower rates of religious belief, you don't give us the evidence.   Isn't that lazy?

I completely agree with you that it was lazy of me to have assumed and to have taken for granted that all and any other members woud have seen/known/been aware of/been familiar with the sort of sociological evidence that I've seen, yes. I fully admit the point.  

Quote:
Is the evidence conclusive?

To my mind, yes, it is.

Quote:
Does it take into account the nature of the beliefs?

I think so, yes.  

Quote:
Is it in all places at all times?

Human nature being the fickle beast that it is, I'm not aware of any evidence for any thing which obtains in all places at all times - creationists for example will flatly deny the near-unanimous consensus of the scientific community on the truth of evolution. If you're after unanimous agreement on some truth which is considered true in all places at all times, then I'm afraid you'll be chasing a chimera.

Quote:
I think that's a pretty elitist view, that religion is confined to the culturally, economically, politically backward.

'Elitist' however doesn't equal 'wrong': and moreover I'm always automatically extremely suspicious of those who use terms such as 'elitist' (and 'liberal western metropolitan elite' and the like, of which I am definitely not a member) because I interpret it as a diversionary tactic - a means of what's now regarded as tone-trolling: of swerving the really important issues away from the central points onto the less vital subsidiary areas.


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